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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: BoroGenes on Thursday 06 January 11 16:41 GMT (UK)
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If anyone has access to Elsdon Parish Records from 1672 I would be grateful if they could help me find the baptism date and parents names for Edward Brown. IGI states birth about 1727.
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Hi
Could not see an Edward Brown baptised in Elsdon anywhere around 1727 by many years. The IGI entry you refer to is not an entry extracted from the Elsdon parish records. The extracted entries are usually very reliable.
In this case you have found an entry submitted by an individual and the reliability is as good as the info held by the submitter - in this case it appears not very good.
Someone has found a marriage between Sarah Lowes & Edward Brown in Elsdon in 1752 & used the 'standard' estimate of age for a bridegroom of 25 years. This has then been used as the basis for an entry stating that Edward Brown was baptised in Elsdon abt 1727. In the absence of other information he could in fact have come from anywhere (including Scotland) and he could be much older and a few years younger than 25. He could also well have been non-conformist (in particular one of the varieties of Presbyterian) and would thus not necessarily have appeared in the parish baptism registers, unless perhaps his parents were concerned about issues of inheritance and so wanted to record his birth.
Many Presbyterian ministers in NBL did not keep registers, even into the 19th century, or if they did, regarded them as their personal property and the registers consequently had uncertain fates. There were very good reasons for the introduction of civil registration in 1837. We cannot assume that the IGI, or even the IGI plus all surviving church registers, will have information about the whole of the NBL population.
In this period, particularly with a common surname, it is therefore very risky to rely just on parish registers - you need to see what other records you can find that might account for others with the same name in the same broader area. The IGI alone shows quite a few Edward Browns baptised in the wider area over time.
Have you been able to idenify the burial of the Edward Brown you are interested in? If he lived long enough the entry might just possibly give a tad more info such as his age at death or the specific location he lived in.
A couple of Elsdon parish burials around the date you mention that may or not be helpful (given the mobility of the population and the extremely common surname):
13 August 1723 Edward Brown of the Bogg buried
25 Sep 1735 Dorothy wife of Edward Brown of Girslees Miln [buried]
BTW - somewhere on the internet, possibly Google books - a number of NBL parish registers, and I think these may include Elsdon, are freely available. I have to dash so can't locate it but if you have a play on Google I am sure it will come up. You could also try FreeReg to see if they have any records for Elsdon and neighbouring parishes.
Good luck,
Matilda
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Hi
A couple of baps that you may already have but the info in the registers helps to possibly link these to one of the burials:
8 Nov 1761 baptism of Edward son of Edward & Sarah Brown of Girslees Miln
19 Feb 1764 bap of Elizabeth dr of Edward & Sarah Brown of Girslee miln
27 May 1770 bap of Nicholas the son of Edward & Sarah Brown of Girslee miln, 3/4 year old
In the entry for the 1752 marriage of Edward Brown & Sarah Lowes, the only additional information was that they were both 'of this parish'. That does not necessarily mean they were born there.
A Nicholas Brown marries shortly before Edward - I could not find a bap in Elsdon for this elder Nicholas Brown either nor baps for any of his children. They could still be living/have been born in the area, but could be non-conformist. Edward & Sarah may have 'lapsed' to C of E or Sarah could have been C of E and have prevailed :) This is all speculation however. Even if Edward & Nicholas senior are related, their family could have moved to the area after they had been baptised elsewhere, or they could both be mobile hinds or shepherds, moving around as adults every 12 months or so, with the crossing of paths in 1752 in Elsdon being co-incidence.
There is another burial:
12 Feb 1750 Nicholas Brown of Elsdon
Matilda
P.S. Sorry forgot to provide the Nicholas Brown marriage - 18 May 1752 Nicholas Brown & Mary Nicholson both of this parish
A couple more burials:
12 April 1744 buried Nic: son of Nicholas Brown of Elsdon
28 Oct 1744 Mabell Brown of Elsdon Widdow Pr [was buried]
The Nicholas Brown entries refer to a place of abode in Elsdon, which I would take to mean Elsdon township, while Edward Brown is said to live in Girslee miln
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Here is a link to Elsdon Parish registers 1672 - 1812 - free
http://www.archive.org/stream/registersbaptis00goog/registersbaptis00goog_djvu.txt
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Thanks very much for all this useful information, Matilda1. I will cross check it with my existing sources and post the outcome. Hopefully, I can get further back.
Regards
David
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My links to Elsdon for the Brown's in my family tree are as follows:
"Family Search" images of Tynemouth Parish Records show the birth of Edward Milburn Brown, 1 April 1808, 1st son of Nicholas Brown of Whitley, Labourer of Elsdon and Jane Milburn of Simonburn. The IGI Family Group Record lists Nicholas Brown and Jane Milburn as marrying on 16 Feb 1806 in Elsdon. I am fairly comfortable with the lineage up to this point.
"Family Search" IGI Family Group Record gives an Edward Brown married to Sarah Lowes on 25 June 1752, as Matilda1's above confirms. The IGI record also shows Sarah's death as 9 March 1803 and burial in Elsdon on 12 March 1803. Another IGI search gives Sarahs christening at Elsdon on 28 Oct 1730. Another person's family tree I have seen gives Edward Brown as Baptised on 25 July 1730 in Elsdon. These 'facts' I need to check further.
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Hi there,
I have just found a probable link between Edward Brown and my "known family".
Lancelot Brown, farmer 1757-1822 was a son of Edward and Sarah née Lowes.
Lancelot married Elizabeth Pender on 5th May 1800 in Elsdon and they had a daughter:
An Isabella Brown, born 10th March 1801 in Elsdon.
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Isabella Brown and William Laidler had a daughter, Margaret Laidler born 20th April 1846 and who died on 25th March 1882 in Sunderland as the wife of William Jackson, a successful wine & spirits merchant.
What I'd really like is the marriage info for Isabella Brown and William Laidler, so I can positively connect all the above. There was a marriage between a William Laidler and Isabella Brown on 2nd Feb 1842 at All Saints, Newcastle upon Tyne, but I thought the wedding should have taken place about 1830 given the DoBs for Margaret's siblings.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Richard
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Update: I have eliminated the marriage record for 2nd February 1842 in Newcastle-upon-Tyne for William Laidler and Isabella Brown. The fathers were Andrew Laidler, schoolmaster, and Thomas Brown, farmer. They are NOT in our family. If anybody wants the certificate, just let me know.
So ... I'm still looking for a marriage record for William Laidler and Isabella Brown from 1826 to 1839 or so.
Richard
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Hi Richard
I checked the marriage index for Northumberland which covers 1813 to 1837 - there was no relevant marriage.
Is there any chance that Isabella could have been married before? I did spot a marriage between William Laidler and Isabella Pringle in Hartburn in 1834. Hartburn is a neighbouring parish to Elsdon. Now if you could find a marriage for Isabella Brown to Mr. Pringle who subsequently died......
Alternatively they married after 1837.
Christine
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Hi Christine,
Thanks for your interest.
I think it's likely that William and Isabella were married before. Some of the older children from the 1841 Census are staying with other Brown family members in 1851. Is that significant? I don't know.
I may try to get a birth certificate for a child of William and/or Isabella born after Sept 1837 to see who the parents were.
Finding the death record for Mr Pringle before 1834 would certainly help with your theory.
Thanks
Richard :-\
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I haven't been able to find a Brown/Pringle marriage so that puts paid to my theory :-\
Have you considered cross-border marriages - is there any liklihood of Presbyterians in the mix?
Christine
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Thanks for following up Christine.
Anything is possible, I suppose. I have heard that some Elsdon records are just not available and have been lost or destroyed.
I did order the birth certificate for their daughter Isabella Laidlaw (different spelling) born Q March 1841 in Castle Ward, in the hope that we can see if her parents were the same as Margaret born in 1846.
I shall let you know what I discover.
Richard
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So, the "people of interest" are:
William Laidler (Laidlaw) born 24 March 1808 in Lowick; died 6 December 1880 in Low Trewhitt
Isabella Brown born 10 March 1801 in Elsdon; died 30 July 1865 in Caistron
their children:
Lancelot Laidler born about 1831 in Elsdon; died 3 October 1872 in Alwinton
Elizabeth Laidler born about 1832 in Elsdon; no more info.
Mary Ann Laidler born about 1835 in Elsdon; died in Q September 1907 in Rothbury
James Laidler born about 1836 in Elsdon; died 12 September 1915 in Rothbury
Sarah Laidler born about 1838 in Elsdon; died Q December 1897 in Rothbury
Isabella Laidler born about 1841 in Elsdon, died Q March 1908 in Sunderland
William Laidler born Q December 1844 in Elsdon; died 12 June 1916 in South Shields
Margaret Laidler born 20 April 1846 in Bowershield; died 25 March 1882 in Sunderland
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I wonder if this info will help provide any clues.
Thanks
Richard PJ
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At least some of the children were baptised in Harbottle Presbyterian church:
Lancelot 3 Aug 1830 s. of William & Isabella Laidler, Raw, Par. of Elsdon, father a Shepherd
Elizabeth 28 Nov 1831 ditto
Sarah 8 Mar 1838 d. of William Laidler & Elizabeth Brown (sic) Ilelaw, father a Shepherd
Isabella 8 Jun 1840 d. of William Laidler & Isabella Brown, Grasslees, father a Shepherd
17 Apr 1843 William ditto father a Husbandman
Isabella and Elizabeth are sometimes used interchangeably but I would not have thought a family using both names for different daughters would have done this for the mother. Mistake? Or preference of Minister?
Marriage may have taken place over the Border. Worth checking Scotlandspeople just in case but probably not C of S. Have seen references to Presbyterian Ministers taking couples over the Border to marry them, and also of course it may have just been a marriage before witnesses.
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Thank you SelDen.
The plot thickens!
I found James Laidlaw, son of William Laidlaw and ELIZABETH Brown, born 6th Jan 1836 and baptised 16th Feb 1836 at the Presbyterian Church in Otterburn.
With this information, I'm not sure that Isabella, Sarah and William will have birth records on the FreeBMD index to match. I wonder if some births were just not registered?
Did William have three wives, namely 1. Isabella 2. Elizabeth 3. Isabella ? Or are they all Isabella Brown born 1801?
So we're still searching for that elusive marriage record?
Thank you
Richard PJ
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It might stay elusive if it was in Elsdon. The problem with the records which you mention above is outlined on a post of mine last year. Post no. 11
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=312847.msg5059914#msg5059914
Christine
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Thanks Christine,
I'll just keep plugging away and see if any documents come to light to support or refute the fact that William Laidler (Laidlaw) married Isabella Brown some time between 1826 and 1838 in Elsdon.
I shall add an asterisk with your information about missing Elsdon records.
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Richard PJ :-\
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Now that SelDen has found baptisms in the Presbyterian church I think you should be looking cross-border. The border is very close to Elsdon and most Presbyterians would prefer this than to being married in the Church of England which was the legal requirement. Not all cross-border marriages have survived but it would be worth a look.
Welcome to rootschat, SelDen
Christine
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How do I search the Scottish records? Do I need a subscription? I wonder if a lookup request might work?
Any advice is welcome.
Richard
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You can search Scottish records by buying credits on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Good luck. I hope you find what you are looking for there, but you may be stuck with the challenge of an irregular cross border marriage where the records are a bit more sketchy.
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There speaks the voice of bitter experience, eh Craclyn ;D
I will check out the available irregular marriages on Wednesday if no-one has provided an answer before then.
Christine
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Thanks very much Christine.
Since we have many irregular personalities in our family, I am optimistic. ;D
Richard
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There speaks the voice of bitter experience, eh Craclyn ;D
Christine
Yes indeed Christine :) In my trawl through 40 volumes of non-conformist indexes on Saturday I saw that PT31 Berwick Golden Square and PT33 Presbyterian Registers also include some irregular marriages. I didn´t check to see if the lists they have are covered in the cross border booklets though.
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Thanks for the welcome, Christine.
I have checked the two booklets of irregular marriages issued by the NDFHS - no luck.
A reminder that Scotlandspeople only has C of S & more recently RC records. Some Protestant non-con records appear to be only available in Edinburgh, sadly. Scottish parish records may sometimes mention some irregular marriages but these may be more likely to be couples living in that parish.
Have you seen the entry for a will for Lancelot Laidler, late of the Salmon Inn in Holystone, in the National Probate Calendar? Effects under 100 pounds. Will proved by Lancelot Brown. Small chance it might have a clue? This link explains how to get a copy of post 1858 wills:
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/searching-for-probate-records
I am looking for a marriage for my own (different) William & Isabella Laidler (Isabella formerly Whitehead) the early to mid 1830s hence my coming across this post.
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Thanks everybody,
Yes. Lancelot Laidler was the uncle of Lancelot Brown in my tree.
My challenge remains in linking the mother of Margaret Jackson née Laidler (1846-1882), who I believe to be Isabella Brown (1801-1865) with the Edward Brown (1722-1791) in this thread via Edward's son Lancelot Brown, farmer, (1757-1822).
I believe Lancelot Brown married Elizabeth Pender and Isabella was their daughter. Everything that I have uncovered points in that direction. I would like to have the marriage record to prove this beyond doubt.
Richard
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Just checking you realise that unlikely the marriage record will give the names of the fathers at this date, regardless of whether marriage C of S, other non- con denomination, irregular or even C of E (pre July 1837). If in church you may be v lucky and one of the witnesses may have a distinctive name but relationships not given.
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There is chance the LL will might confirm relationship e.g. might refer to LB as his cousin. Think it more likely LB junior rather than senior proved the will.
Other possibilities are any leases either family entered into. Am not familiar with inn license requirements but maybe LL needed a reference? There is a websjte somewhere about pubs and may also be local records. Sometimes roundabout route can help.
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Good points SelDen.
I am taking the roundabout route and following nephews and nieces. The name Lancelot is seen again with Norman Lancelot Brown (1903-1966), who is related to Lancelot Brown (1757-1822).
Two of William and Isabella's children are staying with Isabella's brother Thomas Brown in 1851. Possibly because it's a more stable environment as Thomas is a farmer and better off than William, a shepherd.
The Laidlers and the Browns appear to have lots of ties. I'm filling in a lot of blanks with my Ancestry tree to see what crops up.
Thanks
Richard
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I have just ordered what I hope will be the death certificate for Elizabeth Brown née Pender (1770-1850). She was buried at Raw on 11th May 1850. I think it would help if I could get a copy of her will to give relationships of her children.
How would I do that - probably in Raw, Elsdon, Northumberland before 1850.
Richard
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http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/intro.php
For pre-1858
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I have come across your search and note with interest that some of our names cross paths with mine in the elusive family history data search. I also note the date of the posts being 2014 and was wondering if in your progress over the past years you may be able to fill in some of my missing jigsaw pieces.
I am new to genealogy searching on the internet so please forgive my errs.
My wife initially asked for my help in searching her family tree and has now left the ball in my court.
I am seeking assistance with the 4th most common family name on RootsChat - Brown, in particular Browns of the Elsdon area. What I have so far (please correct if I have anything incorrect):
3 X GreatGreatGreat
Thomas Brown b: 25/05/1766 @ Girslee Miln d: date ? 1859 Elsdon
m: Elizabeth Hedley of Knightside b: 25/02/1781 bp: 09/11/1781 m: ? d: date ? 1840 Elsdon
They had 7 children:
Mary b: 17/05/1809 Laingshill d: ?
Edward b: 07/02/1811 Laingshill d: ?
Thomas b: 19/12/1813 Elsdon d: ?
John b: 04/06/1815 Elsdon d: 02/05/1883
Sarah b: 06/09/1818 Elsdon d: ?
Mary Anne b: 08/10/1820 Elsdon d: 08/03/1839 Tynemouth
Elizabeth b: 06/07/1823 ? d: 06/05/1824
4th X GGGG
Edward Brown bp: 07/02/1722 Rothbury d: 06/04/1791 Elsdon
m: Sarah Lowes b;25/07/1730 bp:28/10/1730 m: 25/06/1752 d: 09/03/1803 or 1805 Laingshill
They had 10 or 11 Children (unsure)
William bp: 27/05/1753 Elsdon d: ?
John bp: 26/01/1755 Elsdon d: 07/05/1827
m: Elizabeth Jackson 19/05/1795
Lancelot bp: 11/12/1757 Elsdon d: ? 1822
m: Elizabeth Pender 05/05/1800
Ann bp: 22/04/1759 Elsdon d: ?
Mathew b: 1760 (not sure if he belongs to this line?)
Elizabeth bp: 19/02/1764 Girslee Miln d: ? 1808
Thomas bp: 25/05/1766 Girslee Miln d: ? 1859
m: Elizabeth Hedley 05/02/1809
Edward bp: 08/11/1761 Elsdon d: ?
m: Ann Hedley 08/06/1793 Elsdon
Sarah b: ? d: 13/06/1768 Elsdon
Nicholas bp: 27/05/1769 or 1770 Elsdon d: ?
m: Jane Milburn 06/02/1806 Elsdon
Sarah b: 1771 or 1772 bp:1777 @ 5 yrs old Girslee Miln d: ?
Any assistance with this would be greatly appreciated. Side bar is it Girslee Miln or Mill?
TCosy