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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: keith77 on Sunday 30 January 11 16:38 GMT (UK)
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Hi i am in need of help trying to trace my Thornton descendents i have little but some information
they were strong Catholics attended stoneyhurst college and the mount which is now st Marys. they were some kind of wine merchants having something to do with Thornton & France ltd( the only thing i find with this is the sale to Matthew Brown Brewries....who is also my ggg grandfather
sorry of track little i know
James Thornton b1812? married Helen Sutcliffe
Thomas N Thornton b1836 married Margaret Walker
is Thomas N J Thornton b1870 married Helen Brown
looking for any help information regarding James parents sibling etc and if anyone has any information about Thornton & France wine and spirit merchants
many thanks Keith
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I think that James Thornton's wife may have been Hannah Booth:
1851 census
Friargate, Preston
James Thornton head M 39 Wine merchant Preston
Hannah Thornton wife M 38 Hazel[--]* Forest of Rossendale
Mary Ann Thornton daur 12 Preston
James Thornton son 10 Preston
Elizabeth Thornton daur 9 Preston
Hannah Thornton daur 7 Preston
Thos. Booth assistant 27 Clerk Constable Lee, Lancashire
*Hard to read, but may be a misspelling of Haslingden. Constable Lee, where Thomas Booth was born is in the same area.
From the IGI
Marriage at Haslingden 8 July 1834
James Thornton
Hannah Booth
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It says Hareholme which is Newchurch in Rossendale way.
Mo
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Thanks Mo :) .
1841
Friargate, Preston
James Thornton 30 Grocer & tea dealer
Hannah Thornton 25
Mary Thornton 2
James Thornton 8m
Elizabeth Thornton 10
[same address, separate household]
Alice Booth 50
Frederick Myers 20
Thomas Booth 15 Ap.
Isabella Wilcock 20 Female Servant
Everyone born in Lancashire
There is a Thomas Thornton aged 5 at Lower Booths, Rossendale, in the household of Nathaniel Booth, Mill owner aged 22. Thomas Thornton who married Margaret Deborah Walker had the middle name, Nathaniel.
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A fuller transcription of the marriage can be found on Lancashire OPC:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
except they have the groom as Thomas Thornton :-\ .
St James Haslingden
8 July 1834
Thomas Thornton of Preston
Hannah Booth of Constablelee
married by banns with consent of parents
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Thanks for the quick replies and the help. do you think i'm on the right track? do you think James is Thomas Nathaniels father?
from what i know he did live in frairgate preston, and went to the hodder now sent Marys when he was young, both Thomas N snr and Thomas NJ jnr were presidents of the Broughton catholic charitable socitiy and at some point lived in Grimsargh with Brockholes Thomas Jnr was my great great grandfather and married Helen Brown who was Matthew Browns( Blackburn based brewier) Daughter.
I hit a brickwall after Thomas Snr as my granmother remarried and her then husband took all the family history both the Thornton's and Browns,with him when she past away sp i might be guessing as to who his father was? thanks again
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Hi again Thomas N snr was born on october 25th 1836 he was the second of a family of eleven.
He went to Hodder in 1845 he entered the family business and retired in 1905. i also have mention of a James Thornton Born 1840? who might have emirgrated to Australia?
thanks
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To confirm that Thomas Nathaniel's father is James, you would need his marriage certificate. You can find the marriage to Margaret D Walker on the LancsBMD index:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
and order it online from that site.
As Thomas was born before 1837 (when civil registration began) the only record of his birth will be a baptism record. In 1836 there were two Roman Catholic churches in Preston: St Wilfrid in Chapel Street and St Mary in Friargate. The Records Office in Preston will have copies of the registers for both churches. If you cannot visit the RO yourself I think you can order a copy by post - if you email the RO explaining what you are after I'm sure they will be able to help.
Re James Thornton born 1840 - James and Hannah have an 8 month old James with them in 1841.
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Hi,
Like Galium says you would need the marriage certificate to confirm his father.
It may also be worthwhile applying for James Thorntons will to see if there is a mention of Thomas N. James died on the 26th February, 1876 aged 64 at The Mount Fernyhalgh and his will proved on the 29th March, 1876.
Regards,
Mo
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Forgot to include this earlier:
1851 census
Renishaw, Derbyshire
Spinkhill College
Thomas Thornton scholar 14 Scholar born Preston, Lancs
I hadn't heard of Spinkhill College before so apologies if you know this already; this was a Roman Catholic school, which is now Mount St Mary's College.
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Galium, Mo thanks again for your help but i'm confussed about Hannah Sutcliffe(Booth)??
i have found a record that James married a Hannah Sutcliffe on the 9th May 1839 in Colne
James Father was a Henry Thornton which seems to tie in with the vague information i have been given in which my James dad was called Henry?
i will find it hard to go to the RO and have spoken to them with regards information they say if i cannot attend in person then i will need to pay somebody to go and find the information which i need
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I think Galium has found the right marriage at Haslingden. Haslingden records are not the best to read, so it may just have been mistranscribed.
This is the details of the Colne marriage, which as you can see is certainly not the correct couple.
Marriage: 9 May 1839 St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire, England
James Thornton - (X), minor Weaver Bachelor of Waterside
Hannah Sutcliffe - (X), full age Spinster of Waterside
Groom's Father: Henry Thornton, Weaver
Bride's Father: William Sutcliffe, Weaver
Witness: James Hartley, (X); James Ellis
Married by Banns by: B C Sangar
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1841, Page 123, Entry 245
Source: LDS Film 1471065
Mo
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The Lancashire BMD site shows mother's maiden names for some of the entries on the birth index.
Mother's maiden name for these two Thornton children is Booth:
Mary Ann b 1838
James b 1840
There are no Thornton births in Preston showing with mother's maiden name Sutcliffe.
I'm sorry you didn't have any luck with Preston RO. You could try posting a specific request for a look up for the baptism of Thomas Nathaniel Thornton on here, and maybe someone who is going to the RO will be able to help.
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The Marriages section of The Preston Chronicle of Saturday July 19 1834 has this report:
On the 8th inst, at Sunnyside by the Rev. Mr Hodson, and afterwards at the Parish Church, Haslingden by the Rev. W Gray A.M.. Mr James Thornton of this town to Hannah, youngest daughter of the late Nathaniel Booth Esq., Constable, near Haslingden
From The Preston Guardian of Saturday May 21 1859
Deaths
On Monday last, at the residence of her son, Mr James Thornton, spirit merchant, Mrs Ellen Thornton, in her 88th year
From The Preston Guardian Saturday September 10 1859
Marriages
On Thursday last, at the Catholic Church of St Walburge, by the Rev. Thomas Williams, S. J., Thomas N., eldest son of Mr James Thornton, wine merchant to Margaret, third daughter of Mr. John Walker, builder. All of this town
You will notice that James Thornton and Hannah Booth were married at Sunnyside as well as at Haslingden Parish Church. This web page:
http://stjamestheless.org.uk/v6History.htm
explains how Roman Catholics came to be using a room at Sunnyside Works as a place of worship. The Booth family also get a mention.
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I cant thankyou enough for taking time out to help me thankyou
Keith
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Morning,
I have located graves in preston old cemetery for Ellen it appears that she is buried with a Henry Joseph Thornton aged 5 months?, also the grave of Thomas snr with what appears to be 6 other family members.
a quick one i have been looking on ancestry for the marriage record for James and Hannah but it doesnt find any matches? i have also been trying to find the D.O.B place of birth of Hannah Booth but likewise no matches are found i'm i doing something wrong?
Thanks Keith
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Glad you were able to find the graves.
Ancestry's parish records collections are patchy, and don't cover all places at all times, especially not in Lancashire. As James and Hannah's marriage was before 1837 and the start of the civil registration indexes, it isn't surprising that you haven't found it there.
The same applies to finding a birth record for Hannah, with the added complication that she would have been baptised as a Roman Catholic, and fewer RC records are available to view online than CofE.
The reason that James and Hannah married in the CofE church although they had an RC ceremony at Sunnyside was that at this time only the CofE marriage was legally valid. This is why it is often the case that you can find a marriage record online for Roman Catholics, but no baptisms.
Going by the web page about Roman Catholic worship at Sunnyside, it looks as though Hannah might have been baptised at Townley Hall, as the nearest RC place of worship at the time she was born.
Preston Records Office have baptism records for Townley Hall Chapel from 1820 (a bit late, though) and Burnley Library has some much earlier baptsim records - but I don't know about the records for c1813.
However Burnley Library also has records of the 1820 congregation with names, ages and addresses, which might be helpful.
A possible marriage of James Thornton's parents is on the IGI:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bq/
Thomas Thornton and Ellen Rainford at St John, Preston 18 November 1794
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Galium thanks again as you can see i'm pretty new to this haha ;D, quick question regarding James marraige to Hannah it states that the parents were there however i think Ellen was widowed before the marrage but it has the name Robert Thornton could this maybe be an uncle?
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Could be an uncle, but also possibly a brother. I have had a look at censuses but can't find a likely looking Robert Thornton who was born in Preston :( .
Lancashire OPC shows a burial of Nathaniel Booth, of Hareholme, aged 59 at Newchurch in Rossendale in 1820.
The Lancashire Will Search site
http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm
lists a will of Nathaniel Booth, worsted spinner of Hareholme proved in the Consistory Court of Chester in 1820. I haven't ever used the Cheshire Wills site:
http://apps.cheshireeast.gov.uk/recordofficewillepayments/search.aspx
to get a will copy, and the search isn't working for me at the moment, but I think you can order a will online from there.
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Hi.
This link is working, but he isn`t listed:
http://apps.cheshirewestandchester.gov.uk/RecordOfficeWillEpayments/search.aspx
There maybe a copy at the Lancashire Records Office, but I can`t find it yet.
Mo
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The Preston Guardian Saturday, November 10, 1849
On Monday last, at the house of her son-in-law, Mr James Thornton, wine merchant of this town, Mrs Alice Booth, aged 66, relict of the late Mr Nathaniel Booth, worsted manufacturer, of Hareholme, near Haslingden.
Lancashire R O have this will
document ref: R 175/55
1850 Sep 25
Name: Booth, Alice
Address: Preston, Amounderness, Lancashire
Occupation: Widow
Booth is not an uncommon name in Preston, and it may not be the same lady, but there's no reason to think it isn't her. The date given is the date that the will was proved.
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Afternoon, i'm confussed again!!I thought that Nathaniel married Mary Astley?
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The will of Alice Booth proven 25/09/1850. Alice died 05/11/1849.
Basically Alice left all her worldly goods after funeral expenses and any debts were taken out to her daughter Hannah and Son in Law James Thornton, if they die before Alice, the goods are to be shared with the Grandchildren (not named)
Trustees and Executors
James Thornton, Son in Law and Grocer of Preston
Peter McIntyre, Gentleman of Lytham
Isaac Fearon, Tea Dealer of Preston
James Thornton executed the will on behalf of the Trustees
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Marriage - St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale
2nd Feb 1811 Nathaniel Booth of Hareholme - Alice Collinge of Fallbarn, witnesses WmL (?) & William Bradshaw
Baptism at the same church
6th Nov 1786 Alice Collinge dau of John & Alice Collinge of Tunstead, (no other information)
1841 Commercial Directory of Preston
James Thornton - Grocer of 11 Friargate
1851 Slaters Directory of Preston
James Thornton - Tea & Coffee Dealer 18 Friargate, also he is a Wine Dealer at the same address
I could not find Baptismal records for either Hannah or James
Regards
Simon
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Back to Lancashire OPC :) .
Nathaniel Booth married Mary Ashley(as transcribed) 14 May 1781 at St Wilfrid, Standish.
Nathaniel Booth who died in 1820 was aged 59 , so born c1761, and may well be the same man who married Mary in 1781.
There are no online records of baptisms to Nathaniel and Mary, but it is a fairly safe bet that a woman old enough to marry in 1781 won't be having children much past 1800. Hannah Booth was born c1813.
Two possibilities are:
1) Mary died and Nathaniel had more children with a younger wife.
2) Nathaniel father of Hannah is a son of Nathaniel and Mary.
There are two further marriages of a Nathaniel Booth at Newchurch in Rossendale:
23 April 1804 to Ann Covert
3 September 1811 to Alice Collinge. (as supplied by Duck, above)
Although marriage records from this time should show whether someone is widowed or unmarried, they don't always, and these two transcripts on Lancs OPC don't give any clues as to whether it is one Nathaniel Booth marrying for a second and third time, or more than one.
There doesn't seem to be a burial for Mary Booth at Newchurch who is obviously Mary wife of Nathaniel.
There is a burial of Ann Booth, wife of Nathaniel of Hareholm in 1810.
A Nathaniel Booth of Hareholm was buried at Newchurch in 1812 - but as no age is given we can't say whether this is an adult or a child.
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Thanks Duck for the information big help, i have just found a record of a Nathaniel Booth born 10 feb 1762 derbyshire fathers nme Nathaniel mothers name Mary.
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Duck it's a shame about the batismal records, however i have ordered the marrage certificate of James married to Margaret D Walker so hopefully i will find his parents from that?
Keith
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It may also be worthwhile applying for James Thorntons will to see if there is a mention of Thomas N. James died on the 26th February, 1876 aged 64 at The Mount Fernyhalgh and his will proved on the 29th March, 1876.
Blimey, I didn't think to lookup James's will yesterday, I'll try and sneak back to the RO tomorrow, what an idiot I am
Simon
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Cheers Simon,
If there was no baptisim records for James or Hannah at the R.O where would i look? or where would i go from here does this mean i am stuck or is it still possible to find out the information?,
I've ordered Thomas snr's marrage certificate not James so will that give both his parents names including mothers maiden name?.
I wonder if there are baptisim records for his siblings? John c1801 who was 8 in the 1810 catholic census, and Margaret c1800 who was 9?.
regards Keith
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It may also be worthwhile applying for James Thorntons will to see if there is a mention of Thomas N. James died on the 26th February, 1876 aged 64 at The Mount Fernyhalgh and his will proved on the 29th March, 1876.
Blimey, I didn't think to lookup James's will yesterday, I'll try and sneak back to the RO tomorrow, what an idiot I am
Simon
The Lancashire Records Office do not hold wills after 1858, I didn't know that until today ???
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I still can't find a baptism for James or Margaret, but there appears to be no Parish Records for St. Wilfrids/St.Marys RC and St.Johns C of E from 1803 - 1813
I managed to find these Thornton baptisms at St. Wilfrids RC
19 Mar 1796 Thomas son of Thomas & Helen
19 Jun 1798 John son of Thomas & Helen
7 Mar 1801 Robert son of Thomas & Helen
Ellen is quite often spelt as Helen in RC registers
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1869 Gilletts Directory of Preston
James Thornton, Wine and Spirit Merchant and agent for Findlater Dublin Porter, 9 Lord St, Home address 33 Winkley Square (quite posh)
Thomas N Thornton, Wine and Spirit Merchant (jas.. Thornton), home address 33 Winkley Square
James Thornton Jnr, Wine and Spirit Merchant, home address Nut Cottage, Fulwood
1873 Preston & District Directory
James Thornton details as above, home address The Mount, Fernyhalgh (where he passed away in 1876)
Mr Thomas Thornton, 34 Winkley Square (the only person on that page listed as Mr)
1877 Mannex Directory of Preston and District
Thomas N Thornton, (James Thornton) home address Grimsargh House, Grimsargh
1881 Mannex Directory of Preston & District
Thomas N Thornton, as 1877
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Hi Simon
Thanks again for the information, but could i ask for your advice again?
When you sent me the 1810/20 catholic census you said that there were two family's,
31 Bridge st
Ellen 52c , Margaret 19, John 18 and James 13
Molyneux square
Ellen 45, John 22, Robert 19 and James 9
which do you think is more likely to be the correct family?
Keith
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James Thorntonn Jnr wine and spirit merchant Nut cottage Fulwood, is this Thomas Nathaniel's brother?
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James Thorntonn Jnr wine and spirit merchant Nut cottage Fulwood, is this Thomas Nathaniel's brother?
I would imagine he is
It was a pleasure meeting you today, I'm glad your visit to Preston wasn't completely wasted
Regards
Simon
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Just to resurrect a zombie but I just found a tidbit relating to this while doing some online research on my own hareholme ancestors.
But these Booths are mentioned in Newbiggings History of Rossendale relating to the construction of Hareholme mill. The book says a fair bit about them.
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Hi i am in need of help trying to trace my Thornton descendents i have little but some information
they were strong Catholics attended stoneyhurst college and the mount which is now st Marys. they were some kind of wine merchants having
something to do with Thornton & France ltd( the only thing i find with this is the sale to Matthew Brown Brewries....who is also my ggg grandfather
sorry of track little i know
James Thornton b1812? married Helen Sutcliffe
Thomas N Thornton b1836 married Margaret Walker
is Thomas N J Thornton b1870 married Helen Brown
looking for any help information regarding James parents sibling etc and if anyone has any information about Thornton & France wine and spirit merchants
many thanks Keith
This is a message for Keith 77. It was posted yrs ago so don't know if you still log in. I'm new to this so don't know if I'm doing this right. I have the death certificate of Helen Thornton who was married to Thomas Nathaniel thornton (wine merchant) . I am the great grandaughter of agnes thornton who was married to Robert smith who is a direct decendant of the Haydocks. I have an extensive family tree. Robert Smith's mother was Anne Brown. If anyone can help me contact Keith please do.
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Making contact with Keith 77
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Good morning Jess and welcome to RootsChat. I just checked Keith's profile and it appears that he visited RootsChat today so hopefully he'll have seen your post.
Make another post and then you can send him a private message. If you post a reply to this from me that should be enough.
I also have Catholic ancestors who lived in Preston in 19th century. Some of them were innkeepers and probably knew the Thornton wine merchants. Mine lived at Avenham Rd. and Chaddock St. near Winckley Square. Some of them were buried in St. Wilfred's graveyard until it was closed in 1854.
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Hi Maiden Stone
I've made private contact with Keith thank you.
I live in London but my mother was from Preston. Her maiden name was Lewis but our family tree is on her mother's side- the Smiths. We have a family tree going back to the Haydocks (1422) so probably have alot of relatives buried up there!
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Hi i am in need of help trying to trace my Thornton descendents i have little but some information
they were strong Catholics attended stoneyhurst college and the mount which is now st Marys. they were some kind of wine merchants having something to do with Thornton & France ltd( the only thing i find with this is the sale to Matthew Brown Brewries....who is also my ggg grandfather
sorry of track little i know
James Thornton b1812? married Helen Sutcliffe
Thomas N Thornton b1836 married Margaret Walker
is Thomas N J Thornton b1870 married Helen Brown
looking for any help information regarding James parents sibling etc and if anyone has any information about Thornton & France wine and spirit merchants
many thanks Keith
[quote author=Maiden Stone link=topic=510564.msg6427677#msg6427677 date=1518003218
I also have Catholic ancestors who lived in Preston in 19th century. Some of them were innkeepers and probably knew the Thornton wine merchants. Mine lived at Avenham Rd. and Chaddock St. near Winckley Square. Some of them were buried in St. Wilfred's graveyard until it was closed in 1854.
[/quote]
After he gave up his inn one of my ancestors became bookkeeper at Brown's brewery in Preston and remained in his employ for 23 years, 1831-1854. The 1850 death notice for his wife in the Preston Chronicle reads "...at Mr M. Brown's Brewery..." as if she died on the premises. I may have mis- read it.
Latest edition of Winckley Square newsletter is out.
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There is a Nathan(iel) Booth married Ann Heath 1766 at Preston, 2 children baptised non-conformist Marey 1767 and William 1769 - maybe other children??
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Hi just noticed your post Matthew Brown was also my ggg grandfather and speaking to my mother she thinks you are related to her father's (Thomas Nathanial George, known as George as he had the same name as his father.) brother, Joeseph who moved to South Africa. So we will be related.