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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: nzenigma on Monday 31 January 11 23:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
Sorry to pick the most common name in Wales :-[ but....
I'm looking for Edward Jones, (assumption: c 1800 - c 1850)
he was the father of :
Edward George Jones (1828- 1873) born in Wrexham.
E.G. Jones was a chemist living in High St, Staines, Middlesex (1861 & 71 census)
Married to Anna Elizabeth Bragg
EGs marriage certificate (1858) states:
EG (30 years) is a Widower (another unsolved mystery).
Father -: Edward Jones, Deceased - Occupation Architect.
Mother's name not stated.
Checking local Welsh records occupations are generally miner, farmer etc.
but no architects. Maybe there is a register?
He may have moved to England with EG, also I'm assuming he was qualified when he was in Wales.
Will be grateful for any info or direction to other resources
Kind Regards Gary
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The birthyears you are quoting do not add up - was he born 1821 or 1829
Edward George Jones (1829- 1873) born in Wrexham.
EGs marriage certificate (1851) states:
EG (30 years) is a Widower
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You have given the wrong marriage year - he was married in 1858 in Taunton - not 1851
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You have given the wrong marriage year - he was married in 1858 in Taunton - not 1851
Thanks Carole, my blue ! As you say 1858. His age on the census 1861 & 71 is 32 & 42 years respectively. Therefore, have previously used b. 1829.
Regards gary
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1851 Census of 292 High Street, St Peter at Arches Lincoln
ref HO107/2105/296/20
Edward George Jones, age 23, Chemist Assistant, born Wales Denby Wrexham
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According to this link the Architecture Association School of Archiecture was founded in 1847, most architects were trained by articled pupillage until that time.
http://www.aaschool.ac.uk/AALIFE/LIBRARY/aahistory.php
The Dictionary of Welsh Biography contains information on several noted architects from Wales. It appears that most were educated and articled in England.
HTH
Heather
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1851 Census of 292 High Street, St Peter at Arches Lincoln
Thanks very much, Heather.
I shall dig further, but it would appear that the recording of early architects is held in some office .
I'm compiling an archival and historical 'must see' list for my UK visit.
??? I revisited the 1851 census. Edward George still did not jump out at me, eventually I used the ref#
above _ eureka.
If appropriate, can you indicate your methodology?
Kind regards Gary.
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Will send a PM
H
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Hi
I have checked every entry on both the English and Welsh 1841 census for an Edward Jones b 1828-1830 with a father Edward - all counties
Only about 6 had a father Edward - but none was an architect
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Hi
I have checked every entry on both the English and Welsh 1841 census for an Edward Jones b 1828-1830 with a father Edward - all counties
Only about 6 had a father Edward - but none was an architect
If the family where in the Wrexham area, they might not show as most of the 1841 census pieces for that area are missing.
JL
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Hi All, appreciate your efforts, Gary :)
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There is a Edward Jones, Architect, shown on this Pigot's Directory for Wrexham dated 1835.
Scroll down to the list of names, there is "Jones, Edwd (and architect) Queen St (surveyors)".
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mossvalley/mv/dir/pigot1835-wrexham.html
The Trade and Commercial Directories for Wrexham should provide more information on the location and years Edward Jones practised as an architect there. These would have existed from the 18th century onwards.
Jo
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:) :) :) Hey Jo, Where would I be without you! Looks good will PM. Gary
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Hello again,
I suspect that Edward Jones, senior, may have left a Will. The Nayional Library of Wales has Wills online and the site is searchable.
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
The local trade and commercial directories are held in lbraries and also the Wrexham Local History Centre. The A.N Palmer Centre.
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/archives/index.htm
They will do research for you for a small fee. Looking through the directories should be a quick job.
It looks to me that Edward Jones, architect, may have had an established business in the town.
Jo
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Just a quick reminder that the A N Palmer Museum will be closed until the 14th of February when it reopens after major refurbishment.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Just a quick reminder that the A N Palmer Museum will be closed until the 14th of February when it reopens after major refurbishment.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
In other words; Patience is a virtue, m'lad'.
Thanks William :)
and Jo :)
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Quick desipher of digital images:
Edward's will dated 3 March 1835 was proved 30 April 1835.
"eldest son Edward" inherits 'part' when he attains the age of 24 years.
Same condition applies to his other children ( unnamed)
His wife Sophia inherits.
Gary
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Sophia is quite an unusual name and it should be possible to find her in one census, 1851 if not 1841, even with the common surname of Jones. You might get the children with her too, bearing in mind they were younger than Edward junior.
Jo
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I have tried to find Sophia in the census returns for Wales and England both 1841 and 1851. I cannot identify her for sure but she is not to be found in Wrexham under the name of Jones in either. I am aware that the 1841 is missing for parts of Wrexham.
This made me wonder if she remarried. There are possible marriages for her in Wrexham, two in 1839, one in 1840 and another Civil Marriage in 1842. North Wales BMD shows possible spouses as follows:
1839, Wrexham St Giles, Edward Kelly, or Thomas Williams.
1840, Wrexham St Giles, Thomas Hughes, or Maurice Roberts.
1842 Wrexham Civil Marriage: Henry Jackson or Richard Jones.
I have looked for her as the wife of these possibles and the most likely one I found was a Sophia Hughes in Penybryn, Wrexham Abbott, in the 1851.
The reference is: HO107/2503 Folio 593 Page 26.
The household is as follows:
Sophia Hughes Married, aged 51, Bonnet maker, born Wrexham.
Elizabeth Jones, Temp Lodger, married, aged 48, Dress maker, born Wrexham.
Elizabeth Jones, daughter, Unmarried, aged 21, Dress maker, born Wrexham.
Robert Jones, Unmarried, aged 15, Shoemaker, born Conwy. An infirmity is shown but I cannot decipher what it is.
In theory, the relationships should be to the head of the household. That would make the two Jones children Sophia's, rather than Elizabeth. I am not convinced about this however.
I don't know if anyone else can find an entry for someone who could possibly be Sophia.
One way to approach it might be to enquire of the local registry which of the marriages has Sophia as a widow, or to look these up in the parish registers for St Giles.
Jo.
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Hi Jo,there is also a death of a Sophia Jones in the Wrexham District in 1839.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hello William,
Yes, that could also explain why she cannot be found in the census returns.
I wonder what happened to the children as they would have been very young then.
I have had chance to look at the Will dated 1835. This is not very easy to read in the digitised format but nonetheless, it gives a good account of the family that existed. A pity that the children were not named though. It mentions friends of Edward Jones as John James, Solicitor, and Edward Jackson. It also refers to his children in terms of his and her, so there must have been boys and girls.
Edward Jones, Architect, must have been wealthy as he left lands and property, probate value £450. In 1835, this would have been a huge amount. He also set up a Trust under his Will. Something only a very wealthy person would be able to do then. It might have something to do with the fact that women were restricted as to what they could own.
I wonder if it would be possible to trace the solicitor and see if any of the papers of this firm have been deposited in a Record Office. These might yield much more information.
The Trust was set to run for 500 years and there should be some records for it somewhere.
It appears as though Edward Jones knew he was dying as the date of the Will was so close to his date of death. I imagine he was quite young when he died.
I think that this would be worth more research.
Jo.
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In the History of the Town of Wrexham I found references to Edward Jones architect.
It gives detail about him that are in Palmers History of the Older Nonconformity of Wrexham.
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL19373470M/A_history_of_the_older_nonconformity_of_Wrexham_and_its_neibourhood
You can read online or download this.
Details on Edward are on page 90.
Edward Jones architect died at his home in Queen Street next to the Linen Hall April 1st 1833 ? aged 39. (same day wrong year) Buried in the Dissenters Graveyard.
He was the son of John Jones carpenter , Linen Hall and a brother to John Jones of High St.
Mr John Jones carpenter died Jan 6 1796 aged 42, also buried Dissenters Graveyard.
Edwards will.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/3229
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From The History of the town of Wrexham.
Queen Street.
The whole of the houses numbered 8 to 10 were I believe built by Mr John Jones carpenter on land belonging to him there towards the end of the last century. This Mr Jones was the father of Mr John Jones draper ( No`s 36 and 37 High Street and of Mr Edward Jones architect.
Mr Jones himself died 6th January 1796 aged 42. Behind the houses just named he built a hall for the March fair which was approached from Queen Street by the arched passage which still exists between No`s 9 and 10.
It was open in the middle with a covered gallery around three of its sides having shops in the gallery and and on the ground floor between them.
On Mr Jones tombstone in the Dissenters graveyard this square is called ` The New Linen hall` In 1818 in the rates books it is called `The Irish hall` and in 1827 ` Manchester square` but it was more commonly called Jones` square. It was still in existence in 1841 and doubtless much later. Linen and fancy goods were the chief commodities sold in it .
There is a MIs book for the Dissenters Burial Ground in Wrexham Museum.
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Wow, It is 7am downunder, I woke to be totally absorbed by the evolving story,.... other bleary eye is speed reading 'history of older non-conformists' ...thanks Wilcoxon.
As Jo points out, Edward appears to have taken ill and died at a young age. His eldest , Edward,is too young to inherit.
Edward George Jones has always appeared to 'have means'.
At age 23 (1851), he was a Chemist Assistant.
By 1861 he was a Chemist in High Street Staines
He died in 1873. Probate close to £1000
Regards to all Gary. :)
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When WXM museum opens again I`ll take a look at Dissenter s Mi`s and see what I can find. The burial ground is not too far away anyway, I can have a stroll round with my camera.
In same book - history of Non com - search for Wilcoxon, they are mine.
Makes searching for ancestors quite difficult. ::)
Are you linked to to the Jones. ???
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When WXM museum opens again I`ll take a look at Dissenter s Mi`s and see what I can find. The burial ground is not too far away anyway, I can have a stroll round with my camera.
In same book - history of Non com - search for Wilcoxon, they are mine.
Makes searching for ancestors quite difficult. ::)
Are you linked to to the Jones. ???
A very kind offer, Thanks.
Yes, I am indeed a Jones . Presuming that we have the correct 'Edward the Architect', I am a direct descendant, Paternal. His Great x 3 grandson.
PS. if you find the 500 year Trust, hmmm.. I can be very generous,......just Me, you and Jo. ;)
Regards Gary
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from the Denbighshire Non-Conformist Registers
all at Wrexham - Chester Street Presbyterian
Burials
John JONES (no occ) buried 11/01/1796, age 42
Edward JONES architect died 01/04/1835 buried 08/04/1835
Baptisms
Edward JONES - no date of birth, baptised 18/02/1797 son of John Jones and Ann
Edward George JONES born 04/08/1828 baptized 26/01/1829 son of Edward Jones and Sophia
Sophia Elizabeth JONES born 14/08/1829 baptized 25/10/1831 dau of Edward Jones and Sophia
Hariette JONES born 17/11/1830 baptized 25/1/1831 dau of Edward Jones and Sophia
William JONES born 22/01/1832 baptized 24/01/1832 son of Edward Jones and Sophia
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PS. if you find the 500 year Trust, hmmm.. I can be very generous,......just Me, you and Jo. ;)
Regards Gary
Down to a 25% split guys, Well done Heather :) :)
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John Jones, clothier, of High Street, where Mr. Scotcher's shop now is, elder son of Mr. John Jones, of The Linen Hall, husband of Sarah, eldest daughter (see ch. Ill, sec. 62) of the Rev. Wm. Brown ; died Nov. 4, 1826, aged 39, and was buried in the Dissenters' Graveyard.
The Rev. William Browne's three daughters were singularly beautiful. They were called " the Meeting-house bells [belles] ." One of them, whom an uncle or some other relative took to an exhibition of pictures in London, was almost as much looked at as the pictures were.
The eldest daughter, Sarah, born February 12, 1788, was married (May 22, 1810), to Mr. John
Jones, mercer, of High Street (see Appendix I ., 208), by whom she had several children, one of whom (Miss Sarah Jones, of Bowdon) is still living ; she died March 12, 1820, aged 32, and was buried in the Dissenters' Burial Ground. ( Palmer 1888, Chpt 3,62; App 46.)
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Wrexham - Chester Street Presbyterian
Baptism
John JONES born -/03/1787 bapt 06/05/1787 son of John Jones and Ann
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http://hdl.handle.net/10107/274720
Browne, William, Wrexham, Denbigh, Minister
William Browne : will, 1822
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/663854
Browne, Sarah, Wrexham, Denbigh, Widow ( His wife)
Sarah Browne : will, 1829
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/943647
Jones, John, Wrexham, Denbigh, Draper
John Jones : will, 1827.
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Gosh, this has progressed well since yesterday. The Wrexham and Denbighshire Rootschatters have come up trumps! :)
Just so I can picture the locations in my mind as I am too far from Wrexham now to go and look, where is/was Queen Street? I know where King Street is, so presume that Queen Street was close to this, is that right?
Where was The Linen Hall?
I have never heard of a Dissenters' Graveyard in Wrexham, where is it please?
Since I am to be cut in with a share of the Trust if it can be traced, I might well venture back to find it! ;D
I will see if I can find the children of Edward and Sophia Jones later on.
I imagine the local paper of the time would carry an obituary for Edward's death in 1835. I wonder what else they may contain on the family.
I think that Gary needs to have a trip over for a while! :D
Jo.
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http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=53.051861&lon=-2.995706&z=19.2&r=341&src=msl
This is the graveyard , it`s in Rhosddu. Stones are laid flat and propped up against the wall.
The monument in the front is for Morgan Llwydd whi is also buried there.
http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=morganllwydnlwms11431b
Queen St in in the area of the Guildhall.
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/big_town_story/index.htm
This is a good site.
I wonder if Edward George and his siblings will be in Wrexham 1841.
Worth a look when the Museum reopens.
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Gosh, this has progressed well since yesterday. The Wrexham and Denbighshire Rootschatters have come up trumps! :)
I think that Gary needs to have a trip over for a while! :D
Jo.
In the pipeline Jo ;). Meanwhile, Beefing up on Welsh. Sounds complicated, but rather melodic, have almost perfected 'Boyo'. . ;)
Gary
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EGs marriage certificate (1858) states:
EG (30 years) is a Widower (another unsolved mystery).
Father -: Edward Jones, Deceased - Occupation Architect.
Mother's name not stated.
Seems good enough for me ;)
Marriages Jun 1856
JONES Edward George Lincoln 7a 803
Pilley Anne Elizabeth Lincoln 7a 803
Deaths Mar 1857
JONES Anne Elizabeth Staines
Edward George didn`t hang about long. :o :o
Marriages Dec 1858
Bragg Anna Elizabeth Taunton 5c
Choice of=== I know which one I`m going for ;D ;D ;D
DUDDRIDGE Joseph Taunton 5c 711
Jones Edward George Taunton 5c 711
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See « Reply #22 .
From Old Wrexham, a book by Alister Williams published by Bridge Books Wrexham
The caption below this image in the book is ` Queens Square c 1925. Demolished in 1927 to enable the vegetabe Market to be extended. It was one of the March Fair squares.`
This image matches the description by Palmer in my Reply 22
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Thanks for this Wilcoxon.
John Jones must have been some carpenter to have constructed this.
The only thing we seem to be missing now, other than finding them on census returns, is the marriage of Edward Jones to Sophia ?? Any ideas?
Jo
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Oops, I`ve just been checking my History of the Town of Wrexham and I have got my square`s mixed up. ::) ::)
I may as well put the description for us all to see.
`The property on which Queens Square was built belonged partly to the Hughes`s of Chester and Rhosddu and partly to Thomas Dale of Oswestry, it was purchased from the former owners by Richard Kirk Esq. of Gwersyllt Hill. Mr Kirk appears to have built the square which was erected by 1804, It still belonged to Mr Kirk in 1828`
Queens Square in the illlustration was very close to John Jones square and probably looked very similer.
Edward and Sophia could have married in St Giles even though they were Non Com. At that time there was no Civil Registration, this link explains a lot I wasn`t sure of.
http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/tips_board/thread/1182253
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Whilst I can't find a marriage for Edward and Sophia Jones I have it seems found a very probable marriage for Sophia Elizabeth Jones born in 1829.it is to a Thomas William Pengelly at Bromsgrove Worcestershire in 1854.The GRO entry is Jul/Aug/Sep quarter,Volume 6c,Page 521.
1861-RG9/1593/23/3.
1871-RG10/2339/75/23.
The 1871 Census is very revealing as it shows a Sophia Jackson a Widow,given as born in Deptford Kent in c 1802 to be Sophia Elizabeth's mother.Though there is possible in 1891 I can't find this Sophia on any other Census.Sophia Jackson is described as an Annuitant.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Sophia Jackson, born Deptford, Kent and her daughter, Sophia Jones, seem to be in Madron, Cornwall in the 1851. The reference is HO107/1918 Folio 737 Page 19.
The head of the household is Henry Jackson but Sophia Jones is shown as born in Macclesfield, Cheshire.
I think this rules them out.
Jo
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It seems Sophia remarried to a Henry Jackson at Wrexham in 1842 in what is described on North Wales BMD as a Wrexham Civil Marriage.GRO details are Jul/Aug/Sep quarter of 1842,Volume 27,Page 365.
1851 shows a Sophia Jones born in c 1830 with the couple but birthplace details are out.HO107/1918/737/19.
I can't find Sophia Jackson in 1861.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,421749.0.html
I spotted that one of the wittnesses to Edwards will in 1835 was Thomas Taylor Griffiths, surgeon. More on TTG in the link above.
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/assets/pdfs/museum/footprints/wrexhamap.pdf
Jones Hall is marked on the map , at the top of Lampit St and Queen St.
It would have been opposite the General / Vegetable market , which has gone and been replaced by BHS and the rest of the new shops.
I can just about remember a sales/auction room up an entry by there .
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It seems Sophia remarried to a Henry Jackson at Wrexham in 1842 in what is described on North Wales BMD as a Wrexham Civil Marriage.GRO details are Jul/Aug/Sep quarter of 1842,Volume 27,Page 365.
There was a marriage between an Edward JONES of Islington and Sophia EDWARDS at Finsbury Park Islington on Mar 17, 1823 (banns were read at Lewisham).
A baptism of Sophia EDWARDS Oct 28, 1801 at St Paul Deptford d/o William Edwards & Elizabeth Edwards.
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It seems Sophia remarried to a Henry Jackson at Wrexham in 1842 in what is described on North Wales BMD as a Wrexham Civil Marriage.GRO details are Jul/Aug/Sep quarter of 1842,Volume 27,Page 365.
1851 shows a Sophia Jones born in c 1830 with the couple but birthplace details are out.HO107/1918/737/19.
In 1841 there is a Henry Jackson living in Mills St, Prestbury , Macclesfield, he is 36 and an `officer excise` not born in County. All other persons in the house have different surnames.
I`m not sure where we`re going with this, but really we don`t know where Sophia was from , and only that Sophia Elizabeth JONES born 14/08/1829 baptized 25/10/1831 was baptised in Wrexham over 2 years after her birth, she could have born anywhere.
1861 RG9; Piece: 2113; Folio: 18; Page: 28
Same Henry 54 b Tean Stafforshire and Sophia 50 b Deptford Kent are living at Strand, Bromsgrove, he is still with the Inland Revenue :o :o :o, there is a neice Margaret Bloomfied 29 unm , b Spitalfields London. No children.
Interestingly in Edwards will 1835 he specifies that `Guardianship and tuition of children till they attain the age of 21 to my wife , if she shall depart this life before they reach 21 then I give guardianship to Edward Jackson and John James.`
Edward Jackson was of ` Spring Lodge ` at the time.
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Bromsgrove was where Sophia Elizabeth Jones married Thomas William Pengelly in 1854.
Regards
William Russell Jones
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BINGO ;D ;D ;D ;D Well spotted WR.
1861 RG9; Piece: 1593; Folio: 23; Page: 3
Roseeadghill, Madron, Cornwall.
Thomas Pengelly 74 head retired farmer b Madron
Jane Pengelly 67 wife b Penzance, Corwall ,
John R Pengelly 29 so unm farmer / gardener b Madron
Maria Pengelly 26 dau unm b Madron
Sophia E Pengelly 31 marr daugher in law, Millers wife b Wrexham
Arthur Pengelly grandson 9 MO b Madron
Sarah Sincock 22 servant b Sithney
Hmmm ???
1861 RG9; Piece: 1593; Folio: 44; Page: 18
Trenere ? Mill Tenement Madron
Thomas William Pengilly head 35 miller master b Madron
Jane Marshal 31 sister unm b Madron
Lewellyn Marshal son 5 y 9 MO b "
Agnes Marshal 4 y 6 MO b "
Margaret Berriman 35 servant
1871 RG10; Piece: 2339; Folio: 75; Page: 23
Trenere ? Madron
Thomas W Pengelly 45 farmer and Miller b Madron
Sophia E Pengelly 41 Wrexham
Llewellyn Pengelly son 15 b Madron
Agnes Pengelly dau 14 b "
Arthur Pengelly son 10 b "
Catharine Pengelly dau 8 b "
Thomas Pengelly son 4 b "
Sophia Jackson widow mother in law 69 Annutiant, b Deptford Kent.
Mary J Lawry 23 servant b madron.
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The marriage of Sophia and Edward Jones is strange as I found the following:
Banns read at Deptford St Paul 2nd, 9th and 16th March 1823. States Edward Jones, bachelor of the parish of St Luke, Finsbury and Sophia Edwards , spinster of this parish.
They were married at St Luke, Old Street, Middx, on 17th March 1823, Sophia shown as being of the parish of St Paul, Deptford.
I think that Hiraeth found the Banns read elsewhere.
Jo
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The banns were read at ` Deptford St Paul`. Edwards is `of the parish of St Luke` and Sophia `of this parish`
At the side of the banns entry is a note. It looks like `certified 16th March` it`s different to the others which state `marriage took place`
The Marriage took place at Islington, Finsbury, St Luke.
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A baptism of Sophia EDWARDS Oct 28, 1801 at St Paul Deptford d/o William Edwards & Elizabeth Edwards.
Hmmm I wonder.
1841 St Pauls Parish Deptford. Borough of Greenwich.
Broomfield Place
William Edwards 65 lab N
Elizabeth Edwards 65 N
Now - please somebody take a look at this, I can`t make out their places of birth and occupation , but the address seems to be the same.
1851 HO107; Piece: 1584; Folio: 649; Page: 33
Broomfield Place, Telegraph Court. Deptford, St Pauls.
Willam Edwards 77
Mary Edwards 70
MODIFIED
I`m not sure now this is the right William and Elizabeth. ???
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Ok folks - back to the Jones , thanks to wonderful Jill Rose,we have these .
All Jones in Queen St .
I`m not 100% sure if the others are in the same household,
but can double check when the museum opens.
CONFIRMED , all in same household.
1841 Queen Street
JONES Sophia 35 Ind. not born in County
Edward 10 born in County
Sophia 10 born in County
WORRALL Mary 50 Ind. not born in County
Thomas ( Jones) 25 Attorney's Clerk born in County
THOMAS Joseph 30 Surgeon not born in County
NIGHTINGALE Charles 20 do. ap not born in County
NEWNES Martha 20 F.S. not born in County
There`s a selection of Harriets but none seem to belong with the family.
Details are now on Jills site.
http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/index.html
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Congratulations on the finds in the 1841 census!
I have sussed the marriage of Edward and Sophia. I couldn't decipher the names of the witnesses, sorry. The only thing I wonder is whether they had any children before those baptised in Wrexham. They married in 1823, so I thing it likely there would have been a child, or children, before 1828.
I have had a look in the London Parish Registers but couldn't find any in those.
The baptisms of the sibilngs of Sophia Edwards from the parish records are as follows:
All at St Paul, Deptford.
Jane Ann Edwards, baptised 23/09/1798, daughter of William and Elizabeth Edwards, abode: Church St, Occupation: Taylor.
Maria Edwards, baptised 09/02/1800, born 25/01/1800, daughter of William and Elizabeth Edwards, abode: Church St, Occupation: Taylor.
Sophia Edwards, baptised 28/10/1801, details as above, address Church St, occupation Taylor. Born 1st ??? looked like January,or February.
George Edwards, baptised 15/09/1805, born 09/06/1805. Parents as above and their address and occupation details are the same.
Harriett Edwards, baptised 01/05/1808, born 02/04/1808, details for the parents are as above.
Elizabeth Edwards, baptised 23/04/1810, details for parents as above.
James Edwards, baptised 09/08/1812, details for parents as above.
I noticed that there were other couples with the name of Edwards baptising children at St Paul, Deptford at that time, plus earlier and later.
The second husband of Sophia, Henry Jackson, died 18/07/1862. The Probate details for him are as follows:
The Will of Henry Jackson, late of Stourbridge in the county of Worcester, Revenue Officer, deceased, who died 18 July 1862 at Stourbridge, was proved at Worcester by the oaths of Sophia Jackson of Staines, Middx, widow the Relict, John Eld of Hill Top in the parish of West Bromwich in the county of Stafford, Draper, and John Blackham of Hill Top, Draper, the executors according to the Tenor of the said Will.
Sophia Jackson died on 26 December 1880 at Madron. The details of her probate are as follows:
The Will of Sophia Jackson, late of Treneere Mills in the parish of Madron in the county of Cornwall, widow, who died 26 December 1880 at Treneere Mills, was proved at Bodmin by Thomas William Pengelly of Madron, Market Gardener and Miller, the sole executor.
Jo.
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The wittnesses look a bit like Jn/Wm and Harriet Wallin ?
I`ve attached the names bit, but am not sure about posting the complete entry, copyright etc ???
Nice to see the signatures though. :)
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Hi amazing friends,
I have nothing of value to add , except my thanks and hope you are enjoying the journey too.
I'm a little embarrassed that you have all done so much work and I so little, just cant keep pace.
Kind regards Gary. :) :) :)
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We`re all still after the money ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
A bit messy this, but it`s from this website.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kayhin/1857a.html
1891,Treneere Mills,1,
Thomas W. Pengelly,Head,M,65,,Market Gardener,Employer,Madron Cornwall,,
,,,Sophia E. Pengelly,Wife,M,,61,,,Wrexham Denbighshire,,
,,,Katherine Pengelly,Dau,S,,28,Home Assistant,,Madron Cornwall,,
,,,Thomas Pengelly,Son,S,24,,Student (Theology),,Madron Cornwall,,
,,,Elizabeth Pearce,Servnt,S,,24,General Servant,Employed,Penzance Cornwall,,
4,Trannack,1,Llewellyn Pengelly,Head,M,35,,Market Gardener,Employer,Madron Cornwall,,
,,,Annie Pengelly,Wife,M,,26,,,Newlyn West Cornwall,,
,,,Sophia E. Pengelly,Dau,S,,3m,,,Madron Cornwall,,
,,,Mary L. Carter,Sis law,S,,30,,,Newlyn West Cornwall
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/index.htm
Masses of Pengelly names in here :o
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/l_m/madron.php
Madron page,
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Another mystery ::), what happened to the half brother , he`s gone by 1861 and I can`t find a death that seems to be him ???
Births Dec 1844
JACKSON Matthew Henry Macclesfield
1851 HO107; Piece: 1918; Folio: 737; Page: 19
Morrab Place , Madron.
Henry Jackson 44
Sophia Jackson 44
Matthew Hy Jackson 6 b Macclesfeld.
Sophia Jones 20
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Hello all,
Another piece to fit into the puzzle is for John James, the solicitor named in Edward Jones's Will. John James was also entrusted with the gaurdianship of the minors, plus a Trustee of the Trust Fund.
He appears in Pigot's 1835 Directory as of "Vicarage House (Attorneys)".
Up to now, I cannot find him in either the 1841, or 1851 census in Wrexham area.
I am thinking it might be helpful to find out more about the firm he was with to see if they deposited records in archives anywhere.
Jo
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http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en-gb/DNAP-78GL8L
Name: JAMES, JOHN
Town: WREXHAM
County: DENB
Occupation: ATTORNEY
Date(s): 1839 1842
Reference No: DD/DM/451/38
There are more Refs to a John James GENT of Wrexham, but they could be anyone.
What about this ???
http://www.tom-mercer.me.uk/marriages.htm
The Wrexham Advertiser, and Register Of Literary, Railway, Local and
General Information
Who was from Wrexham, Ann or John ?? would he be to old to be this one.
October 1st 1851 Wrexham No.26
Marriages:
On the 17th ult., at Manchester, JOHN JAMES, Esq., Solicitor, to ANN, eldest daughter of JAMES FARRER, Esq., formerly of Wrexham.
Looks like he was still in Wrexham
North Wales Chronicle Saturday, November 5, 1853
Birth
27th ult at the Vicarage Wrexham the wife of John James esq solicitor, a daughter.
Wrexham and Denbighshire Advertiser, Saturday, February 12, 1859;
Birth On the 8th inst at Elwy House, Wrexham the wife of John James Esq soliciter of a son.
( Elwy House is still there , on the end of King St opposite the museum)
1861 RG9; Piece: 4287; Folio: 88; Page: 44;
King St . Wrexham, 4 children between 8 and 2.
John James 53 town clerk of Wrexham b Wem
Anne E wife 38 Solicitor b Liverpool.
Can we track the solicitors from this
THE LATE MR JOHN JAMES .
The Wrexham Advertiser, ), Saturday, May 05, 1888;
An obituary with his life story. A brief version.
He was the first Town Clerk of Wrexham , died at his residence Plas Acton age 80.
He first came to Wrexham aged 15 ( 1823 ? ) was articled to Mr Lee , a solicitor in that town. Both men went to Maidenhead but returned to Wrexham.
He was admitted as a solicitor in 1828 and started a practice in town, he took into partership the late Mr J C Owen . He was appointed the town clerk in 1857.
He was married 3 times, the last one was Ann Farrell.
On the day of his death he walked from Plas Acton to Church at Rhosrobin , walked back home, had his Sunday dinner, was taken ill and died the next day at one o clock in the morning. he is buried in Gwersyllt churchyard.
( Less than 5 mins walkfrom my house. he is good company, my Nana and Tiad are buried there :) )
If anyone wants the copy of this obit, send me your email in a PM.
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Has this c****d it all up ::) or is there a mistake again with the years.
These would have been very old graves when the transciptions were recorded.
Dissenters burial ground MI`s
Thanks again to Jill Rose. :)
No. 221 Edward JONES (architect of Queen Street, Wrexham, next to the Linen Hall) died 1st April 1833 aged 39 years
No. 516
William JONES (s/o Edward JONES) died 1832 infant
Henrietta JONES (d/o Edward JONES) died 1832 infant
Edward JONES (father of above, of Wrexham) died April 1st 1835 aged 30 years
Alfred JONES (s/o Edward) died? infant
ADDITIONS
No. 52 (Edwards brother)
John Jones (clothier of High Street, Wrexham husb of Sarah) died Nov 4th 1826 aged 39 years.
Sarah Jones w/o John Jones (eldest daughter of Rev William and Sarah Browne) died March 12th 1820 aged 32 years.
No. 81 (Their father).
John Jones carpenter died Jan 6th 1796 aged 42 years.
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Thanks for the information on John James, solicitor. I suspect that the references to John James Gent, are for the same person. Could this be the abbreviation for Gentleman?
Re the new finds on the grave inscriptions. I think that it is unlikely two people by the name of Edward Jones, architect, would die on 1 April 1833 and 1835. It is possible but my view is that the 3 and 5 have been mistranscribed, at least the grave with the 3 on it has.
Same with the 0 and 9, I have noticed that these are often hard to determine when the grave is old and the writing is worn, or damaged by moss etc. I assume that the 39 is the correct one.
The only thing I wasn't clear on is whether there are two graves for Edward Jones, ie plots 221 and 516. Or is the latter just for the record on the children's graves.
I imagine these children are in addition to those we have already. Coule be they are the "missing" ones born before 1828.
Jo.
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Hariette JONES born 17/11/1830 baptized 25/1/1831 dau of Edward Jones and Sophia
William JONES born 22/01/1832 baptized 24/01/1832 son of Edward Jones and Sophia
Henrietta could be Harriette , William is William ? , Alfred ???
A N Palmer got it wrong as well :)
Edward Jones architect died at his home in Queen Street next to the Linen Hall April 1st 1833
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There is a handwritten note on one of the pages of the Will of Edward Jones which states he ("The Testator") died on 1st April 1835.
Jo.
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1828-9 Pigot's Directory of North Wales.
Edward Jones, Architect , Queen St.
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Has this c****d it all up ::) or is there a mistake again with the years...
No. 516
William JONES (s/o Edward JONES) died 1832 infant
Henrietta JONES (d/o Edward JONES) died 1832 infant
Edward JONES (father of above, of Wrexham) died April 1st 1835 aged 30 years
Alfred JONES (s/o Edward) died? infant...
Sorry to c****d up the good work ;) but, this only leaves Sophia Elizabeth and Edward George surviving. Edward's will states, inter alia: "...bequeath my said real and personal estates [onto] and among all my children including my son Edward..."
Regards Gary :)
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1861 RG9; Piece: 2113; Folio: 18; Page: 28
Same Henry 54 b Tean Stafforshire and Sophia 50 b Deptford Kent are living at Strand, Bromsgrove, he is still with the Inland Revenue , there is a neice Margaret Bloomfied 29 unm , b Spitalfields London. No children.
1851 HO107; Piece: 1543; Folio: 66; Page: 4
11 Spital Square, Norton Folgates, Tower Hamlets.
John Wallen 66 ARCHITECT & SURVEYOR b Surrey Southwark
Harriet Wallen 42 wife b DEPTFORD
Sophi Eliza(beth) Wallen dau 19 b Greenwich
Emily Wallen 18 dau b ""
Fanny M Wallen 16 dau b ""
John James Wallen 33 son in law Auctioneer and Appraiser b Norton Folgates
Margaret Blomfield 19 grand daughter by 1st Wife. b Stepney
Maria Edwards unm 51 sister in law b Deptford.
Berry Underwood 24 servant
Sarah Nelson 23 servant.
I bet this is the same Margaret Bloomfield that`s living with Henry Jackson and Sophia in 1861.
Maria and Harriet are Sophia`s sisters , and John and Harriet Wallen are the witnesses at Edward and Sophia`s marriage. ;D ;D ;D
Or perhaps not :(
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Sorry to c****d up the good work but, this only leaves Sophia Elizabeth and Edward George surviving. Edward's will states, inter alia: "...bequeath my said real and personal estates [onto] and among all my children including my son Edward..."
Well - so far we only have SE and EG, perhaps Sophia Jacksons will may shed some light on any others. ???
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Well - so far we only have SE and EG, perhaps Sophia Jacksons will may shed some light on any others. ???
Among others, the wills of Henry & Sophia Jackson are in the pipeline. Takes a few weeks apparently .
I do note that their respective 'effects' were under £800 and £200 .
Not much of the fortune there.
The solicitors papers may make interesting reading. Also should be informative re the missing children.
Much of the Wills Act 1837 still functions today
...The trustee is required to meet with the probate court regularly and prove that the trust is being handled responsibly and in strict accordance with provisions of the will which created the trust. (Wiki)
Will of John James Esq. 4 July 1888 Personal Estate £10,449 6s 5d'
Proved by Thomas Reginald James and Richard Percy James Gentlemen of Wrexham and sons of the executors :)
regards Gary
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[HO107; Piece: 1543; Folio: 66; Page: 4
11 Spital Square, Norton Folgates, Tower Hamlets.
John Wallen 66 ARCHITECT & SURVEYOR b Surrey Southwark
According to this Wikipedia article Sir Horace Jones was articled to John Wallen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Jones_(architect)
Although Edward Jones was a decade or so younger, perhaps he and John Wallen articled together in London?
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John Wallen, widower married Harriet Edwards July 3, 1830 by licence at Deptford St. Paul. There were four witnesses: Edw Jones, Sophia Jones, John Edwards and E Edwards. The register image is viewable on Ancestry.
I don't have online access to the Times digital archive but it might be worth checking to see if there is an obituary c1865 for John Wallen which might describe his career etc.
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John Wallen strikes me as thr type of person who would have left a Will.
Another article on Wkikpaedia states that Edward L'Anson "entered the office of John Wallen principal quantity surveyor at that time in the City".
There are also references to John Wallen in the piece on British History Online. This is in relation to Spital Square.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50153
He must have been an architect and surveyor of some standing.
I also assumed that Edward Jones was in London to study architecture. Would he have attended a college, or been articled to someone already in the profession?
Jo.
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No. 516
William JONES (s/o Edward JONES) died 1832 infant
Henrietta JONES (d/o Edward JONES) died 1832 infant
I did a further study of the Non-Conformist Register transcription (Blackwell Index) and found more information on these two under Burials of the Wrexham - Chester Street Presbytarian
William JONES died 08/01/1832, buried 10/01/1832, infant, parents Edward & Sophia Jones
Harriette JONES died 04/03/1832, buried 07/03/1832, infant, parents Edward & Sophia Jones
Baptisms
Hariette JONES born 17/11/1830 baptized 25/1/1831 dau of Edward Jones and Sophia
William JONES born 22/01/1832 baptized 24/01/1832 son of Edward Jones and Sophia
If the dates of the above William Jones baptism are correct, it appears he was born two weeks after the first William died.
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I suspect the William Jones who died in 1832 as an "infant" was born some time prior to 1832. He could have been born in London before they came to Wrexham. We don't know yet when they arrived in Wrexham to live. It was about 1828 from the information we have. The Trade and Commercial Directories would give more exact details. Any chance of someone going to the A.N Palmer centre to look?
John Wallen died 13 February 1865. The Probate details state, "The Will of John Wallen formerly of Spital square in the County of Middlesex Surveyor but late of 14 Bedford Road Stockwell in the County of Surrey deceased who died 13 February 1865 at Bedford Road aforesaid was proved at Principal Registry by the oath of Henry Lee of Balham in the said county of Surrey Esquire the sole executor".
Jo
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I wonder if the relationship between Edward Jones and John Wallen was that Edward was trained, or articled, to John Wallen in London.
John Wallen and Harriet Edwards married by Licence at Deptford, St Paul on 3 July 1830. John was a widower, Harriet a spinster and she was shown as of the parish of somewhere I cannot decipher in Middlesex. The witnesses were Edward and Sophia Jones, plus John Edwards and E Edwards.
It may be that John Wallen met Harriett via Edward Jones and Sophia.
Harriett appears to have predeceased John Wallen as he is shown as a widower in Surrey in the 1861 census.
Jo.
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William JONES died 08/01/1832, buried 10/01/1832, infant, parents Edward & Sophia Jones
Harriette JONES died 04/03/1832, buried 07/03/1832, infant, parents Edward & Sophia Jones
Hariette JONES born 17/11/1830 baptized 25/1/1831 dau of Edward Jones and Sophia
William JONES born 22/01/1832 baptized 24/01/1832 son of Edward Jones and Sophia
If the dates of the above William Jones baptism are correct, it appears he was born two weeks after the first William died.
That could work.
The vapours wiped out Harriette and William I
William II , Edward George and Sophia Elizabeth survived.
The context of Edward's will indicates at least three children including one or more females.
Im awaiting reponses from RIBA re John Wallen and Edward's association/timeframe.
Also Denbighshire County archives re James, solicitor.
Wallen's will also on the long wait list, if for no other reason, that he sounds like an interesting guy.
Gary :)
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1828-9 Pigot's Directory of North Wales.
Edward Jones, Architect , Queen St.
Previous Wrexham directory is 1818 and he`s not in that.
Another `Jones the architect `linked to John Wallen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Jones_(architect)
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1828-9 Pigot's Directory of North Wales.
Edward Jones, Architect , Queen St.
Previous Wrexham directory is 1818 and he`s not in that.
Another `Jones the architect `linked to John Wallen
:) Thanks Wilcoxon, Edwards son, Edward George b.1828 gives his place of birth as Wrexham ( 1861&71 census). So that remains the reverse starting point.
Im still waiting on RIBA's response.
The other Jones, also articled to John Wallen, is Sir Horace Jones who was involved in the design of the Tower Bridge.
Another lead, thanks for the tip Wilcoxon ;);
Unfortunately, John James papers held at Denbighshire County archives are a negative >:( :
The catalogue entry for DD/DM/451/38 describes it as:
"List of legal charges from John James, attorney, of Wrexham to John Wright
of Pant, near Wrexham, in the case of Wright v Cannah, 1839-42."
Gary
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Shame that`s a dead end for John James.
I was looking at Palmers Non Com again and spotted on Page 93 that
Henry Jackson excise officer was a subscriber and gave £5 towards cost of the new Chapel that opened in 1841.. ...so Henry was in Wrexham and possibly knew Edward and Sophia before Edwards death.
I think it may be worth looking closely at the Jones in this book,
Edward was a trustee in 1834, and it`s possible the earlier Jones were related.
"By March, 1778, only three of the trustees of 1758 were
still alive :—Messrs. Benjamin Jones, Joseph Jones, and Thomas
Jones;
Joseph Jones, linen-draper, aforetime of Wrexham, but then of
the Old Jewry, city of London"
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Hi All,
Some Wills held by the National Library of Wales give an indication of the wealth of these Jones'.
Unfortunately I cant find much about John Jones the elder except that Anne was his 2nd wife.
In 1820, Rev. William Browne gave his executor, John Jones, brother of Edward, £50 plus 1/3 of the residual money arising from his real and personal estates.
In 1827, John Jones, left his estate to his children _ almost £3000. ( depending on the comparative criteria used, this can equate to as much as £8,000,000 today)
In 1829, Sarah Browne, mother of the late Sarah Jones, left about £1000 to her surviving daughter and grandchildren.
Her will is quite informative.
To granddaughter, Ann Jones, daughter of late daughter Sarah, £300.
To grandson, William Snelson, son of late daughter Abigail Snelson, £50.
To grand daughters, Emily and Sarah Jones, £50 apiece.
To daughter, Caroline Bowker, £300 “ for her own sole and separate use... not to be subject to the debts, control or intermeddling of her husband” ( hmmm, the start of a dangerous precedent here ;)).
Caroline's £300 to remain in the business while Sarah Browne and son in law William Bowker continue in joint trade, “during our partnership...either between me or my grandson John Jones.
Palmer (1888) notes that William Bowker was in Wrexham for a short time eventually emigrating to North America.
:)
Regards Gary.
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Would these be the same as already on the IGI ?
Title: Church records, 1705-1837
Authors: Chester Street Presbyterian Chapel (Wrexham, Denbighshire)
Contents: Church records, 1705-1719 -- Baptisms, 1713-1719 -- Births, baptisms and burials, 1743-1837.
RG-4 series nos. 4421, 3446 and 4131.
http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?p=Wales,Wales,Denbigh,Wrexham&f=1
How do you know Anne was Johns second wife ?
A thought ::) before 1837 marriage had to take place in Church to be considered`legal`
As most non-conformists were obliged to marry in the Church of England between 1754 and 1837, it is possible to find records of their marriages in Church of England parish registers
It probable that John and his father both married in St Giles.
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Would these be the same as already on the IGI ?
[How do you know Anne was Johns second wife ?
Hi Wilcoxon,
The above is from my own analysis of Wills downloaded from the National Library of Wales. http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=3590
The IGI does not seem to have this as digital data ( ??? ??? short burst of Colonial frustration) or am I missing a link?
Sorry my bad, the Anne info was from Palmer.
"Mrs. Anne Jones, second wife of Mr. John Jones, carpenter, of the Linen Hall"( Palmer 1888, 137)
Regards Gary :)
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyDenbigh.htm
Just choosing `(Chester Street Presbyterian) from the list gives you a new page. You can enter a surname in the search box, but if you just click `submit query` you get the whole list of people baptised in alphabetical order`
It doesn`t have burials, so I was curious where they had been found.
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/misc_pubs.html
If it was from the Cocking Index, then it looks like they are from original records.
I was wondering if they were the same as Title: Church records, 1705-1837
Authors: Chester Street Presbyterian Chapel (Wrexham, Denbighshire.
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UPDATE ;D ;D ;D
Gary and I have been doing a little `digging` behind the scenes.
I found a will, Anne Jones : will, widow Pentrefelin
Dated 21 feb 1815 . proved 1826
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/473662
She leaves property in Pentrefelin, Broughton and Brymbo.
She names = Youngest son Edward Jones, second son Ellis Jones, eldest son John Jones. Daughter Elizabeth Fox wife of John Nesbitt Fox.
These match the baptisms , but I`d not come across Ellis Jones anywhere else.. so we were not sure if it was just a coincidence , too many Jones !
Chester St Presbyterian Church. Bapt
John JONES born -/03/1787 bapt 06/05/1787 son of John Jones and Ann, ELDEST
Ellis John( Jones ) s/o John Jones / Ann
Born 1 Nov 1791 bapt 20 Dec 1791 SECOND
Edward JONES - baptised 18/02/1797 son of John Jones and Ann YOUNGEST
I found the marriage of John Jones the draper to Sarah Browne and Ellis Jones was a witness. :)
Marriage by licence at St Giles Parish Church.
John Jones draper & a bachelor and Sarah Browne a spinster both of this parish were married in this by licence this day 22 May 1810.
This marriage was solemnised between =
John Jones, Sarah Browne. Both signed names,
In the presence of
Abigail Browne. Ellis Jones. Eliza Jones. W Browne. Wm. Browne senr.
So that covered three of the names, but what about Elizabeth Fox and John Nesbitt Fox
With some help I found he was an army officer, possibly born in Dublin.
In the National Archives I found this.
Will of John Nesbitt Fox, Paymaster in His Majesty's Second West India Regiment of Wrexham , Denbighshire 26 August 1823
Gary has bought the will and it proved without a doubt that Anne Jones of Pentrefelin was the mother of Edward the architect.
He names Eliza / Elizabeth Fox, his wife, possibly Eliza the witness.
Edward Jones `provident ? row ffinsbury square` Sarah Jones daughter of brother in law John Jones. ( Sarah was the daughter of John and Sarah Browne) bapt 16 FEB 1816 in Chester St Presbyterian Church.
John Nesbitt Fox has a father still alive and living in Dublin.
So where do we go from here. John Jones and his marriage to Anne.?
The will is a bit hard to understand, the writing is not as good as the Welsh ones ;D ;D ;D
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Congratulations to Wilcoxon on such a detailed piece of research. :)
Gary must cut you in on the Trust Fund that we are looking for. The Trust was created under the Will of Edward Jones.
Gary has sent me a copy of the Will of John Nesbitt Fox and I have had a quick look at it (I will give it a good read when I have more time to spare with it being in secretary hand, one sleepless night maybe) I think the address for Edward Jones is: 20 Providence Row, Finsbury Square, County of London. Edit: it could be City of london.
http://www.londonancestor.com/boyle/str-p.htm
One thing that has struck me is the fact that Edward Jones must have been very well educated. He became an architect, studied and practised in London with John Wallen, plus travelled to Greece and elsewhere. This, at a time when few people could read, or even write their own name. Where would he have been educated? It must have been a very good school indeed.
The possible schools local to Wrexham are Ruthin School, or King's School, Chester. Both of these existed at the time he lived. I think the King's School has an archive. I am not sure about Ruthin. Does anyone have any ideas as to other possible schools and how to trace which one he went to?
I have seen some references to John Jones, Draper. I think there is a Grant of Probate shown for his Will on Ancestry. I will see what I found and where. He is mentioned as being the prosecutor in a case on the site below on 28 March 1821. Someone stole a silk scarf from his shop.
http://www.llgc.org.uk/php_ffeiliau/sf_results.php?co=All&from=1772&off_cat=Any&off_co=Denbigh&to=1830&off=800
I wonder if there are any papers for the solicitor mentioned, Hutchinson? It would be interesting to find out where the properties and lands were.
Jo.
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I found a bit about early schools in Wrexham. I wonder if there was any link between Edward , Henry and James Jackson.
James Jackson.. The start of Grove Park Academy,
A Groves house was built in 1762 by James Buttell, he had bought the site from the trustees of the Old Baptist Chapel , Chester Street. It was bought by a Mrs Fryer who kept it until her death, then it was owned by Ephraim Parkins. A private school was started by a James Jackson who was there until c 1828. After J Jackson it was run by a Mathew Gibson
John Nesbitt Fox.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=519303.0
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Yes, great work Wilcoxon, :)
I would add to Jo's observation about Edward's education level; I get the impression that Anne was also well educated. While her will is written by a law clerk it is still detailed and well ordered.
Moreover, Anne's signature indicates a tutored handwriting style.
Anne refers to "holdings and occupations of John Jones, Robert Smith, John Rowland, Edward Evans, Margaret Randles, John Davies, Robert Roberts, Thomas Whetnall, Ellis Jones, Grace Jones, and Richard Jones, unto my daughter Elizabeth Fox wife of John Nesbitt Fox for her natural life."
The way the last three names are grouped may indicate that they are related.
An Ellis Jones , affluent farmer, appears on the 1841 - 1871 Census at Plas Llanynys.
Ellis Jones death recorded 1875 St. Asaph, Denbighshire, 11b page 231. aged 83.
Regards All
Gary
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An Ellis Jones , affluent farmer, appears on the 1841 - 1871 Census at Plas Llanynys.
This one was born Llanfwrog, which is very close to Ruthin.
I didn`t see Ellis mentioned in John N Fox`s will, the other brothers were , perhaps he died. ???
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[ I didn`t see Ellis mentioned in John N Fox`s will, the other brothers were , perhaps he died. ???
Possible but, John Jones is only mentioned to identify 'spinster' Sarah.
JN Fox only bequeaths to Jones' : Sarah, Elizabeth and Edward.
Other children of John Jones are unmentioned.
:-\
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John Nesbitt Fox.
Will Proved at London 26 th August 1823 by Elizabeth Fox the relict.
Questions ??? where and when did he die.
Did he die at Wrexham , or possibly in battle.
The will was witnessed 8 Dec 1821 , it looks like a soliciters firm by the names. Irish perhaps.
Tho Geo Fynimore(?), J Craven A Arand(?) and R???ood? Weston? clerk to Messrs Fynimore & Clarke
From what I`ve read wills were usually proved locally unless it involved property and money in another country.
This might be why the will was proved at the Courts at Canterbury.
At the time of writing his will he had no children.
Edward the architect married only a few months before the will was proved.
John Jones was still alive when John N Fox died.
Edward JONES of Islington and Sophia EDWARDS married at Finsbury Park Islington on Mar 17, 1823
John Jones died Nov. 4, 1826
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"...Last will and Testiment of me John Nesbitt Fox Esquire of Wrexham in the County of Denbigh Esquire paymaster..."
While he had Irish roots, it appears that JNF was resident and gent about the town of Wrexham.
There are several wills on the image, all are proved at London so fair to say he was there and in contact with Edward.
Proved at London by Elizabeth the Relit 26 Aug 1823
Proved at London by Edward Jones 8 Nov 1824
The time gap probably indicates that STILL UNEXPLAINED ??? Edward was no longer in London.
In Wrexham ? Honeymoon and grand tour of Greece? :-\
A search of military records ( is that Kew?) should reveal circumstances of JNF's death. ( Hmm, another entry in my to do list ) :)
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It doesn`t really mean he was in London, a lot depended on the will itself as to where it was proved. A few people have helped on this.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=520280.new;topicseen#new
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It doesn`t really mean he was in London, a lot depended on the will itself as to where it was proved. A few people have helped on this.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=520280.new;topicseen#new
Good info there esp. the link to National Archives_wills. :)
so he could have been killed O/seas.
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Hello Gary,
Just to say that I wondered if you intended emigrating here as your "to do list" is going to take you some time to complete.
Plenty of scope for people who can build Great Walls. ;D
Jo.
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Just a thought but could there be a connection with John N Fox and the barracks, or militia connections in Wrexham?
There is a description of the militia in Wrexham on the link below:
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/assets/pdfs/museum/wrexham_walk_e.pdf
This is in the parargraph headed, "County Buildings". There were (and are) also the Hightown Barracks.
Could J.N Fox have been given a post there as a Paymaster? He appears to have been no longer on active service by the look of it.
Jo
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Bore da folks, :)
I have just added the Wrexham walk to the list Jo :) :)
Wilcoxon has been translating the will of J N Fox and doing associated research …..deserves a big round of applause and or drinks!
I'll leave Wilcoxon to comment on the findings. Except to say, unlike the Jones and Browne wills this one does not appear to be a sick/death bed testament.
Re the Wrexham walk:
Jo, a quiet word with the author would not go astray ;): "Grosvenor Road was originally a ropewalk where the cordswainers made their ropes". :-\
Hwyl, Gary
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Bore Da Gary,
I can see you are taking this very seriously now.
I wondered if the Will of J.N. Fox was one that was made in connection to his military service. That could be why it isn't dated. I think that all who served in the militiary regiments etc were required to make a Will.
The regiment he served in, named in the Will, The Second West India Regiment, was formed in 1795, so the Will must be dated after that.
I am waiting for Wilcoxon's report eagerly.
Jo
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Details from National Archives.
Where would a will be proved?
In the period leading up to 1858 the country was divided into two provinces - York and Canterbury. These provinces were split into a number of dioceses (each with at least two bishops), which were in turn divided into several archdeaconries, which were then split into rural deaneries.
The Prerogative Courts of Canterbury covered the south of England and Wales.
The Prerogative Courts of York covered York, Durham, Northumberland, Westmoreland, Cumberland, Lancashire, Cheshire, Nottinghamshire and the Isle of Man.
There were three main factors determining in which court a will would be proved:
Where the person died
The value of the goods
How these goods were distributed geographically
If the property was... ...
Within one archdeaconry = The will was proved in theArchdeacon's court
In more than one archdeaconry but all in the same diocese The will was proved = Bishop's court (Consistory/Commissary court)
In more than one diocese = Will proved Archbishop's prerogative court
If the goods were valued at more than £5 (or £10 within London), in more than one diocese = Will proved Archbishop's prerogative court
Of course, there were exceptions to these general rules:
If a will bequeathed goods to the value of £5 (£10 in London) which were dispersed in the north of England, and the south of England or Wales then the will was proved in both Archbishops' courts - first York, then Canterbury
If a property-owner in England or Wales died overseas, such as sailors or soldiers, then their will was proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury regardless of where their property was held
So ::) which applied to JNF, and what about Elizabeth Fox, did she remarry .
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Hello Wilcoxon,
I have tried to send you the Transcription of the Will again just now. I hope you receive it this time.
The two appendices to the Will state that it was proved in London. The first occasion was on 23 August 1823, "before the Judge". The second time it states it was proved, again in London, was on 8 December 1824. This time it was before "the worshipful John Danberry" and the reason was that Elizabeth Fox died. She was the first named executrix and it was necessary to transfer powers to Edward Jones as second named executor. You will see it refers to, " Edward Jones the survivng Exor". This means that Elizabeth died sometime in the period 23 August 1823 to 8 December 1824. It was probably around mid 1824 I would have thought.
There would have been a Court of Probate in London. I did think this was the principal court for Probate in England and Wales but am not an expert.
Question is, did Elizabeth Fox leave a Will?
Jo.
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Thanks to Jo, we now have a pretty clear transcription of the will.
John states he is `of Wrexham` and we have an address for Edward Jones.
This is the last Will and Testament of me John Nesbitt Fox of Wrexham in the County of Denbigh Esquire paymaster in His Majesty’s Second West India Regiment I direct that all my just debts funeral expenses and the costs and charges of proving and executing the Trusts of this my Will are first duly paid and satisfied I give and bequeath unto my dear Wife Elizabeth Ffox and Edward Jones of 21-20 Providence Row Ffinsbury Square County of London all my household furniture tools money and plate and all my property of every description.
signed sealed published and declared by the Testator John Nesbitt Ffox as his last Will and Testament in the presence of us Tho Geo Fynmore Solr Craven St Strand
It`s still unclear ( to me )) if they did have any children, he says `may have by my said wife `
to pay and apply the interest dividends and annual procure thereof towards the maintenance education and advancement in life of all and every the child or children which I may have by my said Wife and upon further Trust when and so soon as the said child or children shall attain their respective ages of twenty one years to transfer and pay the said stocks funds and securities unto my said children in equal proportions and if there be but one child then the whole to be paid and transferred to him or her
And again - if there be but one child.
if there be but one child then the whole to be paid and transferred to him or her provided also that in case my wife shall at any time after my decease marry again then I revoke the appointment of her as Trustee for my child or children
Apart from leaving money etc to his father who he names as John Nesbitt Fox in the main body of the will, he leaves money to various friends and their family in Ireland.
Some of Elizabeths family also get a share.
I also give and bequeath unto Sarah Jones spinster the daughter of my brother in law John Jones the sum of one hundred pounds of lawful British money and as to all the rest residue and remainder of my estate and what efforts of nature and fund source I give and bequeath the same unto the said Edward Jones his Exors Adminors and assigns to and for his own absolute use and benefit
There is a side note on the will.
“ In the above will I have called my father John Nesbitt Fox instead of John Newcomen Fox”
This could well be John Nesbitts parents, if so then JNF would have been at the most 32 when he died
Source : Henry Farrar`s index of Irish Marriages from Walkers Hiberniain Magazine. 1771 to 1812
FOX. John Newcomen = Nesbitt Mary , both of the City of Dublin, May 1791
Nesbitts, Fox and Newcomen families were really quite wealthy.
http://www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/search.jsp?q=ballintober
The earliest mention of JNF in the Army is 1815, when he would have been 24 at the most.
London Gazette.18 April 1815
100 th Regiment of foot Ensign John N Fox to be Lieutenant vice Fortune deceased. Dated 13 April 1815.
The solicitors, a little added interest.
William Fynmore, of 43, Craven Street, Strand, solicitor, articled to Mr. George Stubbs, of 3, Suffolk Street, Strand, whose partner he
subsequently became, afterwards Mr. Fynmore carried on business alone, and removed to Craven Street. A few years later he took Mr. Thomas Clarke into partnership, and in due course his son, Thomas George Fynmore ; was vestry clerk of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, in which parish he resided " nearly 60 years ; " retired from that office in 1828 ; held a commission in the Prince of Wales' Middlesex Volunteers, Lieut. 8 September, 1803, and was present with his regiment at the funeral of Lord Nelson in 1806 ; died at St. Mary Abbot's Terrace, Kensington, 28 August, 1832, aged 75, and was buried at St. Mary Abbot's. Will dated 21 July, and proved 11 September, 1832.
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We know JNF was dead by now, but does this article give a clue that he died in a war.
War Office, December 26, 1823 .
The Morning Post (London, England), Sunday, December 29, 1823;
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National Archives.
2nd West India Regiment
Start date 1798 End date 1888
Validation (source) L&I vol 53; Fredk; Army Lists; internet; NCA Rules
See also Myers's Regiment of Foot
24 Apr 1795, Sir William Myers's Regiment of Foot in the West Indies formed with Black soldiers, British officers and non-commissioned officers, and an establishment of ten companies and one troop of dragoons (the latter possibly never formed). In 1798, the regiment was reorganised and renumbered as the 2nd West India Regiment, and absorbed the St Vincent Black Rangers.
Remit and functions In 1798, Sir William Myers's Regiment of Foot in the West Indies was formally numbered as the 2nd West India Regiment.
1798-1888: 2nd West India Regiment.
On 11 May 1888, united with 1st West India Regiment to form 2nd Bn, The West India Regiment.
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Ive been looking for War graves..is there some register?
Im coming up with a number of 2nd West India Reg. deaths in 1823.
Therefore, it appears the regiment was in Sierra Leone at or about 1823.
However, most records give their service there at a later date.
St. Vincent (1796) St. Martin (1801) Santo Domingo (1809) St. Mary's USA (1814)
Rio Pongo (1820) Modern Ghana (1823-24) (1863-64) (1873-74) Gambia (1849)(1855) (1861)
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Back to the Jones and a bit about Sarah who was left money in John N Fox`s will.
Sarah Jones was the daughter of John and Sarah (eldest daughter of Rev William and Sarah Browne) she was born 2nd January 1816, her mother died in 1820 aged 32 and her father in 1826 aged 39. Who looked after Sarah ? she was an orphan at the age of 10.
John was the brother of Edward the architect.
Caroline her friend was born 1st July 1816 , both girls were baptised at Chester St Presbyterian Church, Wrexham.
Caroline’s parents were Edward Evans and Jane,
In 1851 Sarah was visiting her friend Caroline; her family were living in Higgin Lane, Stretford. Both Caroline and her sister Harriet were schoolmistresses,
Their mother Jane a widow is classed as a `landed proprietor`
Sarah`s occupation is ` railway, proprieter of houses`.
I can find no trace of either Sarah or Caroline in 1861 or 71, but in 1881 Sarah is living in a lodging house at 16 Water Street, Rhyl, she has not married and her income is from dividends and rent.
Caroline has moved to Stamford Road, Bowden by 1881 She also never married and is now aged 64 she has income from `interest on dividends` also there is Mary W Evans S 33 b Manchester.
Sarah had also moved to Bowden by 1891
It looks like both ladies were living in separate rooms in a large lodging house at Stamford Road. Sarah is `living on own means` and had a servant, Louisa Field.
Caroline Evans is 74 and `living own means`. Mary Warburton Evans unm 40 b Manchester is a visitor.
Sarah died on 14th August 1893 at 4 Stamford Road, Bowden, probate was granted on 13th September to Edward Russell Evans merchant and Richard Broadhurst, gentleman.
Effects amounted to £3370 1s 11d. This would amount to the spending amount of about £201,850.00 today.
Edward Russell Evans was a cotton merchant born 1849, he was the brother of Helen born about 1839, both were born in Manchester, their father Edward - also a cotton merchant was still alive in 1891 aged 86, he was born about 1805 Wrexham .
In 1901 Edward Russell and Helen were living together , still unmarried in Wilmslow Road, Didsbury. Edward R is a Manchester cotton merchant.
What the exact relationship between Sarah and Caroline was is unclear, but they were friends for life. When and where Caroline died is still to be found.
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http://halelocal.co.uk/the-directory/2011/2/7/the-cake-gallery-4-stamford-road-bowdon-wa14-2ju.html
The address where Sarah died is now a cake shop. ;) ;) click `see full profile`
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What the exact relationship between Sarah and Caroline was is unclear, but they were friends for life. When and where Caroline died is still to be found.
I would suggest that they were cousins. Sarah's grandmother was Sarah Browne daughter of Thomas Evans. Sarah Browne's brother was Edward Evans, he had a son, Edward Evans the younger.
Who looked after Sarah ? she was an orphan at the age of 10.
Good question, but she had Funds in trust- will of Sarah Browne and will of John Jones & money from JN Fox . Edward Evans is a trustee in the wills of Browne and Jones.
Wish I was an orphan ::)
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In1881 Sarah is living in a lodging house at 16 Water Street, Rhyl,
This is now a listed building, a very small white building on Google maps.
I probably walked in the `footsteps` of Sarah, because until I was 3 I lived at 21 Water Street, Rhyl. It is now a chippy called The Fry Inn. ;D
It was a house divided into flats, within 100 yards of the sea.
Rhyl was a very popular place to be in the past, happy days.
http://rhyl-life.blogspot.com/search?q=water+street&updated-max=2009-09-19T16%3A55%3A00%2B01%3A00&max-results=20
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Did anything turn up for John and Ann Jones , I have looked on and off for a few moths now and really not found anything conclusive.
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Did anything turn up for John and Ann Jones , I have looked on and off for a few moths now and really not found anything conclusive.
Not so far, Have a meeting in a month, Im hoping a family Bible will give some clues
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Hello/ Bore da
I came across this chat because I am researching Ellis Jones born circa 1791.
He lived most of his life in Llanfair Caerinion but there are family references also to Wrexham.
Interestingly he was listed in the 1841 census as a builder and seems to have been a man of some note as one of his descendants has an oil painting of him looking like a gentleman.
Most of his children migrated to Australia (including my ancestor) and 2 of his sons were builders in New South Wales, building some substantial civic buildings.
I wonder , given the building connection, if this is one and the same Ellis Jones. I believe they were strong Methodists
I would be grateful of any feedback as searching for records from the other side of the world is challenging to say the least.
Thanks
Nick Hall
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I managed to find him after searching though 10 pages. ::)
Reply #80 on: Saturday 12 March 11 11:48 GMT (UK) »
Anne Jones : will, widow Pentrefelin
Dated 21 feb 1815 . proved 1826
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/473662
She names = Youngest son Edward Jones, second son Ellis Jones, eldest son John Jones. Daughter Elizabeth Fox wife of John Nesbitt Fox.
Chester St Presbyterian Church. Bapt
John JONES born -/03/1787 bapt 06/05/1787 son of John Jones and Ann, ELDEST
Ellis John( Jones ) s/o John Jones / Ann
Born 1 Nov 1791 bapt 20 Dec 1791 SECOND
Edward JONES - baptised 18/02/1797 son of John Jones and Ann YOUNGEST
Now - if yours in Llanfechan in 1841 with Susannah, he is Y , born in County. Montgomeryshire, ours was born Denbighshire.
I can`t find any other Ellis, perhaps you can give us more details.
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Sorry, I should have quoted the page he was on!
I agree that the Y in the 1841 census is conflicting although I have seen this wrong in the census before
His son William Ellis Jones' death certificate in NSW says his (William's) place of birth is "Wrexham Montgomeryshire"
Ellis does not appear in the 1851 census as far as I can tell. There is another Ellis Jones in Denbighshire who is a farmer with a different family.
Unfortunately I have no more information at present. I'll keep looking of course!
Still may be a connection.
Thanks for your response
Nick Halljavascript:replaceText('%20:)',%20document.postmodify.message);
I managed to find him after searching though 10 pages. ::)
Reply #80 on: Saturday 12 March 11 11:48 GMT (UK) »
Anne Jones : will, widow Pentrefelin
Dated 21 feb 1815 . proved 1826
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/473662
She names = Youngest son Edward Jones, second son Ellis Jones, eldest son John Jones. Daughter Elizabeth Fox wife of John Nesbitt Fox.
Chester St Presbyterian Church. Bapt
John JONES born -/03/1787 bapt 06/05/1787 son of John Jones and Ann, ELDEST
Ellis John( Jones ) s/o John Jones / Ann
Born 1 Nov 1791 bapt 20 Dec 1791 SECOND
Edward JONES - baptised 18/02/1797 son of John Jones and Ann YOUNGEST
Now - if yours in Llanfechan in 1841 with Susannah, he is Y , born in County. Montgomeryshire, ours was born Denbighshire.
I can`t find any other Ellis, perhaps you can give us more details.
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I have just found these posts. If anyone is still interested, James Edwards, the younger brother of Sophia who married Edward Jones was my 2xggrandfather and I have done a great deal of research on the Edwards family. James came to South Australia and I am part of the Edwards family born there.
William, father of the seven children listed above, was a merchant taylor in Church St, Deptford. He died 1815 and was buried at St Paul (NBI & FamilySearch) I have his Will and a huge amount of evidence but it took me some years to get there. The witnesses at Sophia's marriage are named Wallen and they are cousins. William's wife was Elizabeth Adams and her sister was Maria. She was the first wife of John Wallen, well known architect and said to be a mentor/teacher of Edward Jones. That is a fraction of the story. If I have replies, I'll post more over time.
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I have just found these posts. If anyone is still interested, If I have replies, I'll post more over time.
Hi emmalydia, you certainly got my attention. :)
Edward Jones and Sophia being my 3xgg.parents.
I had not realised that Elizabeth and Maria were sisters. I have a small amount on John Wallen published here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wallen.
It would seem Edward Jones was probably instrumental in Wallen's second marriage to Harriett Edwards.
William Beatson, architect is also mentioned. He moved to NZ but there are also related Beatsons in Tasmania.
Im not sure if the profession of Taylor is just a coincidence but Edward's family in Wrexham seem to have many links to the trade in London, being themselves linen merchants.
Cheers Gary
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The Examiner London. 15 May 1852
Death
On the 11th inst Harriet the wife of Mr John Wallen of Spital Square in her 45th year.
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Thanks for these two interesting replies. I didn't have the death notice from the Examiner. Gary, it's nice to hear from a third cousin once removed (or thereabouts). The connection between the architects has been very interesting to follow. Of course, Edward and Sophia were two of the witnesses when Harriot married John Wallen and Harriot was a witness at the marriage of Maria Wallen to William Beatson a month previously. As Maria and Harriot were cousins through their mothers and probably friends as they were around the same age, I wonder how Maria felt when her cousin married her father and became her stepmother. I have looked at John Wallen's work and particularly like St Mark's Hospital in City Road, Middlesex. If you look on Old Bailey Online you will find an interesting description of the Wallen house following a robbery in 1856. Do you know of any connections in these families with commerce in America? We have two references in the Edwards family to dealings there and I would love to follow this up.
Regards EL
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Thanks for these two interesting replies. Do you know of any connections in these families with commerce in America? Regards EL
Hi, This is a bit off topic but cant get PM to work. I dont know of any relatives that migrated to America.
We seem to like Australia and NZ.
Thanks for the Old Bailey link, interesting.
Thomas Strode is a 'character' ::) http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/strode-thomas-14313 .
He was uncle to Edward Jones' sons wife. So a mere link to the Edwards family, but an interesting character in early Ozzie.
I assume that you know that Sophia Edwards remarried to Henry Jackson the taxman.
Edward and Sophia Jones lived in Wrexham. Their children were born their. They are mentioned in AN Palmer (1888) The History of the Older Nonconformity of Wrexham (pdf available online).
The family was well connected and quite wealthy. Jones Square/ Linen Hall built by father John Jones, existed into the 1830s. Now its covered by a boring 1960s brick building. As said, clothing and fabric seem to be a trade common to the Jones/Edwards/ Evans families.
Cheers G. J.
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Hello Gary,
I have just seen this post which was resurrected recently by the look of it.
Did you ever find Thomas Strode born in Somerset c1770? I haven't gone through the 13 pages of posts and wonder if you can save me the effort!
Pleased to see you have made much progress.
Jo.
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Hi Jo, been a while!! :)
No Thomas senior remains as elusive as ever. A cousin in Oz has been battling away at it more than me. I still hold hopes of finding something in Somerset records re his Cordwainer indenture. My research venture last year in Europe/UK was a dismal failure.
Still have the same email or PM ... did you move to Shep. Mlt ?
Cheers Gary
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Hello Gary,
It seems a lifetime ago from that cold and windy day in Hove!
I will send you a PM re situation at present. My E-Mail is the same.
Jo.
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Message for Gary
Hi Gary, do you have a copy of the Will of William Edwards - father of your Sophia and my James? If not, it's now viewable on Ancestry under Prerog Court of Canterbury Wills dated 22 March 1815. A most interesting read, they were a very well to do family and, as there were quite a few children and William was so young, I am assuming inherited money or successful commerce as well as Merchant 'Tayloring'! Any comments? Sadly James was only three years old when his father died. If you have all this info, have you researched the siblings - I have but there are a few holes I'd like to fill. Enjoying hearing from you and anyone else interested.
EL
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Hi Annette,
Im having trouble sending PMs. Seem to have lost outbox too, so apologise if you are being swamped by the same info. Will also post this under Edward J, appreciate if you could let me know what/if you receiving.
Chester Street records are on Ancestry.com.
England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970 >Piece 4131: Wrexham, Chester Street Chapel (Presbyterian), 1814-1837.
This should take you to Henry Ellis Jones, then scroll through the register, most are entries by Rev. William Browne.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=UKNonConformistVitals&h=1358710&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t23080560_p27564469457_kpidz0q3d27564469457z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid
Gary ;)
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I was very interested in your post. My husband's g.g.g.grandfather was John Wallen.
I knew that William Edwards wife was Elizabeth Adams but have not been able to prove the connection to Maria Adams John's 1st wife. Can you help
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Hi Diane
This is what I've based it on. Maria Adams was a witness at the marriage of Elizabeth Adams and William Edwards. John Wallen's second wife was Harriot Edwards daughter of Wm and Elizabeth. When Sophia Edwards (Harriot's sister) married Edward Jones in 1823 Harriet Wallen was a witness and also M Wallen (either Aunt Maria or her cousin Maria). Harriet Edwards was the witness at the marriage of Maria Wallen & William Beatson 1830 two months before her own marriage. The Jones/Wallen/Edwards families are closely tied. Is your husband descended from the first or second marriage?
Emmalydia
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Hi Emmalydia
Thanks for the information. The Wallens and the Edwards were very close.
Roy's great grandfather was Frederick Wallen the son of John Wallen and Harriet Edwards.
Frederick came to Tasmania and settled in Launceston. We are in Hobart.
I have seen letters from the Wallen sisters in London which makes references to Aunty Sophie ( Sophia Elizabeth Jones) and her kind husband Thomas William Pengelly.
The sisters were great friends with Frances Samuell (daughter of Elizabeth Edwards and Thomas Samuell)
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...(Harriot's sister) married Edward Jones in 1823 Harriet Wallen was a witness and also M Wallen (either Aunt Maria or her cousin Maria). ...
Emmalydia
I had assumed it was W[illiam] Wallen, but it is certainly an 'M'. Agree its one of the Marias. Thankyou.
Glad you guys have met, wonder how that happened ::) ::) :)
Cheers G.
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Thanks for replies Diane
Roy and I are about 4th cousins then. I am thrilled to have found someone who knows something of my Edwards family. Anything I know I have had to find out myself as James left us no information at all. We have no letters, photos or memorabilia beyond our great grandfather, Friend Henry Edwards. Is the Elizabeth Edwards you refer to James sister born 1810? She was also a witness at the marriage of Harriet in 1830 and after that I lose her. If so, I don't have the details of the marriage - could you let me know. If not, which Elizabeth Edwards are we talking about? I will now reply to your personal message.
EL
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Hi,
I am researching the Newns family, how strange then I'm contacting you. On the 1841 census a Martha Newns was a servant for the family. I am grasping at straws in the hope you may have some info, as it's at this point I am stuck. I can find no record of her anywhere and think she may be the unmarried mother of George Newns born possibly in Wrexham workhouse in 1841.
Thanks for any light you may shed.
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The 1841 census was taken after Edward's death in 1835. Most of the recorded occupants were probably tenants. His wife, Sophia, named therein, married Henry Jackson in 1842. Sorry, no trace of Martha. Good Luck. GJ
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Ah thanks I was hoping she may have moved with them from somewhere. I have enjoyed reading your history though. Thanks
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http://www.clwydsurnames.org.uk/N.html
This site in an alphabetical index.
Newns .
There is also an Anne Newns, a servant in other household.
Misc: 1841 Census Wrexham Town:
King Street: Anne 30 fem. servt. not born in County
Queen Street: Martha 20 fem. servt. not born in County
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Hi,
. On the 1841 census a Martha Newns was a servant for the family. I can find no record of her anywhere and think she may be the unmarried mother of George Newns born possibly in Wrexham workhouse in 1841.
What makes you think George Newns was born in the workhouse in 1841 . Have you the baptism.
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Liz. I see you are new to Rootschat so - welcome.
It will be better if you start a completely new thread for George Newns.
You will have more chance of getting help.
Give as many details that you already have , the earliest I have found him in 1881 even though he married in 1864.
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Liz. I see you are new to Rootschat so - welcome.
It will be better if you start a completely new thread for George Newns.
You will have more chance of getting help.
Give as many details that you already have , the earliest I have found him in 1881 even though he married in 1864.
Liz, excellent advice from Wilcoxon [ :) hi been a while :)] who, with other Wrexham based researchers, gave me a huge amount of help with my own search. Cheers GJ
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:) Hi All, Its been a while, so wishing you all the best for yet another Christmas and New Year.
Our initial search for Edward Jones’ family has grown to a stage where I have now met most of his numerous (living) descendants in New Zealand. I have also been encouraged to write their story, so my spare time is consumed with assembling the tome ‘From Wrexham to Wellington’.
An old chestnut but here goes... ::)
I would love to find out more about Edward’s parents, John Jones (1754-1796) and Anne Jones (1785-1821). His marriage to Anne Jones seems to fit: “19/2/1787 Wrexham John JONES m. Anne JONES both otp” (Jill Rose). Their eldest son was born" -/03/1787 bapt 06/05/1787 son of John Jones and Ann" (Chester St Records)
Relying upon A.N.Palmer (1888), John appears prosperous enough to establish Jones’ Hall /square at the top of Queen Street. Also, Edward Jones’ home was next door. I assume John or Anne had some inherited wealth. Also, Anne Jones’ Will dated 1815, contains a sizeable bequeath of
“my several Mefsauges and Dwellinghouses together with the outbuildings, lands and Apprentances in Pentrefevin [ and similarly] in Broughton and Bromo”.
In an attempt to find some information from land titles I came across Palmer’s 1844 Wrexham map. https://www.wrexham-history.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Wrexham-Map-1844-A.N.-Palmer.jpg
It shows what I presume is a lot # 45. The buildings of Hope and Queen Streets sit upon this parcel. Did landholders have individual title here? Is the history of such titles or leasehold recorded and available?
Cheers Gary
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Hi. I`ve had a look at the Tithe maps which are now searchable online, I did some of the transcriptions myself.
The area you are looking for is Wrexham Abbot, and there are many plots including 45 that have Glebe as landowner and Church warden as occupier. This means that the people who were there are not listed.
https://places.library.wales/home
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784316.msg6391597#msg6391597
I`ve asked for some help so hopefully some one will respond.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784316.msg6391597#msg6391597
I`ve asked for some help so hopefully some one will respond.
Thankyou my long time friend ;) could always count on you.
I'm unfamiliar with land tenure in the UK compared with downunder.
I was assuming that Palmer had used an ancient map and marked the street boundaries that have houses.
If lot 45 is held by Glebe, is Palmer incorrect when he says:
“The whole of the houses numbered 8 to 10 [Queen Street] were I believe, built by Mr John Jones, carpenter, on land belonging to him there towards the end of the last century." and also "this square is called ` The New Linen hall`. In 1818, in the rates books, it is called `The Irish hall` and in 1827, ` Manchester square`, but it was more commonly called Jones`s square. It was still in existence in 1841 and doubtless much later." (Palmer, A. N. 1893, History of the Town of Wrexham)
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If lot 45 is held by Glebe, is Palmer incorrect when he says:
“The whole of the houses numbered 8 to 10 [Queen Street] were I believe, built by Mr John Jones,
Unfortunately, the records are a bit thin and ( to my untrained eye) apparently undated.
Also, Anne Jones' will of 1815 names numerous occupiers of her lands. They are not revealed in any search. >:(
But, I think Palmer is correct. When it came to the nonconformist Jones' he appears well informed. If you read your post #100 above, you/we discuss Sarah Jones and Caroline Evans. They were cousins and her brother was Edward Evans of Manchester. In his preface, Palmer (1888) thanks Edward for his assistance.
At least, I can feel more confident that land ownership is the correct term to use. Cheers G
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I asked for help on the Clwyd mailing list, this is a reply.
The tithe maps and schedules which are online through the NLW site were prepared in the early 1840?s. So you will needs to consider the arrangements that the Established Church had in place for the management of its property - the glebe - at that time.
I would suggest, as a rule of thumb, that the occupants paid a rent to the Established Church, which may have been exempt of the tithe payment. Other taxes that might have been in effect in Wrexham at the time would have been payable to the local tax collector.
Another possibility to consider is whether some of the houses in question were almshouses. In which case, another set of rules would probably be applicable.
Take a look at the following reference to get a general idea of how the established church manages its property holdings nowadays:
https://www.bwbllp.com/file/bwb-faithupdate-churchland-jan17-pdf
You might also find some useful information in Alfred Neobard Palmer?s ?Histories? of the area.
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Thanks for that. :)
Now I understand Glebe. but :-\ seems I have some tedious re-reading of Palmer ahead of me.
He does mention 40 year lease of some land.
This may be why Anne's will only refers to her land in (at that time) nearby towns.
Cheers Gary
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The tithe maps and schedules which are online through the NLW site were prepared in the early 1840?s.
You might also find some useful information in Alfred Neobard Palmer?s ?Histories? of the area.
Sorry to be still grinding away on this bone: :-\ to quote Palmer; "In 1818, in the rates books, it is called `The Irish hall` and in 1827, ` Manchester square`, but it was more commonly called Jones`s square. "
Do the rate books still exist?
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I have tried to find references to these rate books but just drawn a blank. Perhaps Denbighshire Archives may be able to help, but I`ve found nothing on their website.
http://archives.denbighshire.gov.uk/
The only other thing of interest was in the History of the Town of Wrexham.
page 239 The yearly meetings during the early part of this century (19th) were held in the open air, in Jones square in Queen Street . Among the preachers were the famous John Elias and Thomas Charles of Bala.
http://www.thomascharlesinstitute.com/styled/styled/JohnElias.html
Patronymics were in use here.
His parents were Elias Jones and Jane Joseph. They lived at Crymllwyn-bach with Elias's paternal grandparents, John Cadwaladr and Ann Humphreys.