RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: Bram Taylor on Tuesday 15 February 11 08:22 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I am trying to find information on my great great grandmother Ann(e) Bayley/Bailey in the 1841 Census of Lilleshall aged about 21 and single although my G grandfather was born to her in 1842 illegitimately so she well may be with somebody I know nothing of?
I have been trying to find out about her for so many years and I am 73 now so can not try for much longer!!
I do hope some kind person can help me out?
Cheers
Bram Taylor
Australia
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Hi Bram Taylor
I can only find this one so far living in Lilleshall, do you have any more info?
1841 H0107 906 4 Civil Parish Lilleshall
Ann Bailey 20 living with her parents John Bailey b 1801 - Coal Miner and Eliza Bailey b 1801 - other children Samuel 18 John 15 Mary 11 and William 7 - All born in county
All the best
Z :)
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Is this the right one? :)
If not, could you let us have your great grandfather's name and whether Ann went on to get married?
Thanks.
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Hi and hello Z
Thank you so much for your prompt reply; The Ann(e) I am looking for would be about 21 in 1841 as she is 31 in the 1851 census. She is shown with her new husband, George Taylor, (hence my surname is Taylor and Not the previous Bayley). She is also living with her fatherThomas Bayley, aged 66 (so 56 in the 1841) he is married but his wife is not present and I THINK she is a Christine Bayley, maiden name also unknown at this point. There is also a John Bayley in the same abode, not sure where he fits in as I have only just recently found that my Taylor surname only goes back three generation as Ann(e) Bayley had Alfred Bayley illegitimately in 1842, I have that b certificate. She then married George Taylor 1 May 1849 at the Logford church, I have that certificate now and Alfred, my G G Grandfather took the name of Taylor. I hope that is of help to you and you can point me in the right direction at last? Many thanks. Bram Taylor, Australia
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I was just thinking that the above info was a bit muddled so perhaps this copy of the1851 Census might fill in a few gaps?
1851 Census: Brockton Longford, Shropshire
Source Citation: ClassHO107, Piece: 1998, Folio: 225, Page 7; GSU Roll: 8744
George Taylor, Head, Married, 34, Farm Lab, Born Tibberton, Shropshire, (My G G Grandmother Anne Taylor's Husband)
Anne Taylor, Wife, Married, 31, Born Lilleshall, Shropshire, (my G G Grandmother who I am trying to find in the 1841)
Thomas Bayley, Father in Law, Married, 66, Born Lilleshall, ( my G G G Grandfather)
Alfred Bayley, Step Son, 8, Scholar, Born Longford, Shropshire, ( My G Grandfather, Changed his surname to Taylor)
Joseph Bayley, Step Son, 6, Scholar, Born Longford, Shropshire, (Possibly brother to Alfred?)
Thomas Taylor, Son, 1, Infant, Born Longford, Shropshire, (Legitimate son to Anne and George Taylor)
Kind regards,
Bram
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Hi Bram
Take a look at this entry in 1841 in Longford... could they have moved there already? Brockton is handwritten in the margin next to the household.
HO107/906/6Folio 5 Page 5: Longford; County Shropshire
Thomas Bayley aged 55 born Shropshire
Catherine aged 44 born Shropshire
Thomas aged 17 born Shropshire
No Ann though, will keep on looking.
Thought the 'Catherine' has the same wordshape as 'Christine' and was a much more common name at that time.
Barbara
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Good Morning Bram Taylor
I had seen the 1851 entry for George Taylor and Ann and had wondered whether there was a connection with your query, so yesterday I had a little look for Thomas Taylor b abt 1786 Lilleshall in 1841 and came across this:-
H0107 906 6 - Civil Parish Longford
Thomas Bayley b 1786 - Ag Lab
Catherine Bayley b 1797
Thomas Bayley b 1813 - Ag Lab
All born in county
Ann not at home!!! Considering I have found the correct parents of Ann and that Alfred was born in Longford seems likely she could be in Longford in 1841 so will have a little look to see whether she turns up!!
All the best
Z :)
Add On: Snap Barbara - hope you don't mind the similar posting
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Hi z.....
I thought that was great! Great minds think alike, eh? :)
Barbara
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Hi Barbara
Oh good - two heads are better than one! So let's see whether she is hiding in Longford :o
All the best
Z :)
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Thanks very very much you two great minds! I have just had a look at my notes and Catherine was an alternative 'wife' for Thomas, that makes Catherine my G G G Grandmother and similarly Thomas is my G G G grandfather.
Ann, the missing link had an association with a fellow, ( or I would not be writing this) and as a result, Alfred was born and when Alfred in turn married 6 Mar 1864 in Moxley, Staffordshire, he wrote down on his marriage certificate that Ann's partner, his father was Amos Evers, or Evans? He has never turned up over 30 years of searching, strange? But getting back to Lilleshall, thanks so much for confirming the above, I am so pleased to have that part settled, If Ann(e) is to be found I would be very interested as to who she is living with?
Thanks again, Z and Barbara, a fantastic job and more than I thought to achieve. I will try and find the marriage certificate now and nail this couple before they vanish again!!!
Kind regards,
Bram ;D
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G'day again
I got a bit carried away about the marriage certificate as it was pre 1837 so will have to search parish records around Lilleshall, Longford?
Cheers,
Bram
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Morning Bram...
No, you were right...
Wasn't the marriage in 1849?
Marriages Jun 1849
BAYLEY Anne - TAYLOR George Newport Sp. 18 239
Cheers,
Barbara
z and I are on the case for Anne in 1841.
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Hi Bram
Just a thought was there an address on the birth certificate of Alfred?
All the best
Z :)
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Hi Bram
Ok so far have come across a couple of possibilities?
1841 H0917 918 1 Civil Parish Yeaton
Anne Bayley b 1821 - Female Servant and I think she is living in a separate room from the main household with one other person Richard Powell? he is either 15 or 18 not quite certain - Ag Lab
1841 H0107 918 17 Civil Parish Shrawardine
Anne Bailey b 1826 - Female Servant
Will look again a little later.
All the best
Z :)
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You beat me to it this time z! Well done.. I had found the Yeadon one, but not the other one.
Maybe if we can find out the maiden name of Catherine, it might help? I have trawled familysearch.org but no luck so far. As she appears as 9 years younger than Thomas in 1851, maybe she is a second wife?
Have also found a death for Catherine Bailey in Burton on Trent, although I know it's a bit off track and also, Thomas was not listed as a widower in 1851.
Deaths Dec 1841
BAILEY Catherine Burton on Trent 17 2
Barbara
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Hi Bram and z
Are you aware that there is a Public Family Tree on ancestry.co.uk showing the descendants of Thomas and Catherine, but they have gone no further back than we have and have no maiden name for Catherine?
Nor do they have Ann in 1841.
However, the tree does show detail of your Alfred and his wife Christiana Milns and children.
The owner of the tree is a direct descendant of Eizabeth Taylor born 1852 to George and Ann who appears as 9 years old in the 1861 census.
Barbara
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I am wondering whether Catherine was a second wife and his first wife was Elizabeth....
There is a baptism of an Anne on FamilySearch
Anne Bayley 10 Oct 1819 Lilleshall, Shropshire parents Thomas Bayley and Elizabeth
And then one for Thomas a couple of years later
Thomas Bailey 28 Oct 1821 parents Thomas Bailey and Elizabeth
They fit more or less, esp when you consider the ages would have been rounded to the nearest 5 years in the 1841 census.
And then I have a possible death of an Elizabeth Bailey in 1839:-
Deaths Mar 1839 Bailey Elizabeth Newport 18 99
What do you think? Or am I getting carried away and re writing history?
Had better go and look after the living relatives now. ;D
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Hi Bram and Barbara
My goodness Barbara you have been busy ;D It's a great idea to build a bigger picture as I find it extremely difficult to pinpoint certain individuals in the 1841 census as it does not offer condition of marriage, relationships, birthplace - only county etc etc and then it isn't always correct!! And as there doesn't seem to be anything conclusive for Anne in 41 then you never know she might show up with other family members that we know nothing about ............ great work!
Have also tried to approach this by looking for George Taylor in 1841, you never know Anne could be just around the corner ....... but alas she was not there, George jnr however was in Edgmond living with Jane, first wife? And living next door was George Taylor snr with his family.
Will try again tomorrow - maybe the address from Alfreds birth certificate will help?
All the best
Z :)
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Hi Both
Going back to the old familysearch site which I am more used to, i have come across this marriage on the IGI Index:-
Thomas BARLEY - Elizth PRITCHARD 22 APR 1816 Edgmond, Shropshire
An interesting thing is that if you look at all the Bailey marriages under M006501, you find a Mary Bailey who marries a Richard Taylor 22 April 1802 in Edgmond. Wonder if the Taylor and Bailey families were related?
I have broken my toe, so am sitting with my foot up in case you are wondering at the time I am spending on this, but it is intriguing.
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This could be Thomas born 1785 Lilleshall
Thomas BAILEY 17 Nov 1785 Lilleshall, Shropshire parents Thomas and Sarah
Barbara ;)
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And there is a possible birth of Elizabeth Pritchard in Edgmond
Elizabeth PRITCHARD 13 AUG 1789 Edgmond, Shropshire parents Joseph and Mary
An IGI entry submitted by a member enters Mary as Mary Yates
Must go now.
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Good morning from Australia
I am not too sure where to begin, I go from no information to an avalanche! Thanks an awful for all your trouble all of you and my commiserations to scriv2 on your broken toe must be a real handycap?
My apologies for my obfuscation to date in not being very specific in what I have and what I want. My basic problem is that a fellow born Alfred Bayley to a single mother, Ann Bayley changed his named when his mother married a George Taylor to become Alfred Taylor.
At a later date, the marriage of now Alfred Taylor to Christiana Milns Alfred claimed his father to be 'Amos Evers'! I have searched for many years and there appears to be no sign of an Amos Evers but there exists a family history of Gypsy involvement and that I know nothing of.
My current search began as a search for Ann Bayley in the 1841 census and now has taken on a life of it's own to involve her parents and her brother Thomas and all I can say is I am favourably flabergasted!
The suggestion by Scrive 2 in relation to her find in family Search has all the connotations of being a tale behind a tale, that is the "baptism of, Anne Bayley 10 Oct 1819 Lilleshall, Shropshire parents Thomas Bayley and Elizabeth and then one for Thomas a couple of years later, Thomas Bailey 28 Oct 1821 parents Thomas Bailey and Elizabeth. Maybe, maybe Elizabeth did die soon after and Catherine then came on the scene of neccesity in those hard times as Scriv2 says there is a possible death of an Elizabeth Bailey in 1839:- Deaths Mar 1839 Bailey Elizabeth Newport 18 99 which supports such a scenario, goodness!!!!
Also, the suggestion of Barbera in relation to the baptism of Thomas BAILEY 17 Nov 1785 Lilleshall, Shropshire parents Thomas and Sarah seems to stand up too further extending my direct family line it would seem so far?
The address given on Alfred's birth certificate gives born 23 Feb 1842, Chesswell, Longford, I am not too sure from Australia the relavence of that location in regards to above scenario?
I think I will post this lot and have a strong coffee, my brain just died, (I just turned 73).
Cheers for now all
Bram
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Do you have Alfred's birth certificate? If so what does it say about who his father is?
I have had a quick look for an Amos Evers and the only one I found (on the IGI) was born in 1836 in Yorkshire so obviously not your chap.
Unusual name though, so I wonder if it's worth chasing the 1836 one up just in case there is an earlier connection with the family ... No doubt you have probably already been down this route.
Also I couldn't find him in 1841 and you would expect him to be there somewhere - perhaps he is mistranscribed. If your gypsy theory is true this might go some way to explaining why he is missing.
It just seems to be an odd name to make up for your father on your marriage certificate if there isn't some truth in it .... :-\ What was Amos's occupation on the marriage cert?
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There is a "Travellers/Gypsy board" but it must be hidden somewhere - I can't locate it. You may get some help on there as I believe it's a fairly specialised subject.
maybe someone else can help ... ?
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Travelling People Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,387.0.html
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Good Morning Bram - Good Morning Barbara
Bram, how is that strong coffee? Barbara, how is that toe?
So you are on a quest to find a missing father?? Notably an Amos Evers!! And in finding Anne in 41 you are hoping that Amos could be near by. I was hoping that the address from the birth certificate in 42 would give some indication of where Anne was and that she would still be there in 41, however it looks as though Anne went home as Cheswell is the address of Thomas Bayley, Catherine Bayley and Thomas Bayley found in 41.
Had a look in 41 for an Amos Evers but there doesn't appear to be an Amos, however the surname Evers can be found in the Shropshire area, which is encouraging, so perhaps a posting on the Travellers/Gypsy board as suggested by Ruskie would be a good place to start.
Good Luck Bram
All the best
Z :)
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Hi Scriv2
I saw the reference to the Ancestry.com tree and I think I saw it last year when I subscribed to Ancestry, I don't at the moment as I had to deal with a bit of Lymphoma for a while and was pretty caught up with it, however I do have all the information on my ancestry back from Alfred and George Taylor including Ann of course but not the young Thomas you people have just turned up, and thanks for that to all of you. I also have some of the family of Elizabeth Taylor who married a Frederick Reynolds and they had eight children together? I have also expanded for some forgotton reason on Mary Reynolds who went on to marry a Joseph Wickstead and also George Reynolds who married Annie Maria Jones and I seem to remember speaking with the owner of the tree a while back? I have about 3000 people in my tree over all but it was this little corner I wanted to tidy up before I depart this earth and leave my 14 grand children and three great grand children a CD with a copy of their family history on it as both GEDCOm and an FTW (Family Tree Maker) file. I am more than happy with what has surfaced in the last couple of days and will try and build on that by expanding on Ann and the Thomases, Catherine and Elizabeth etc.?
ADD:- I have been going over my notes in a massive drawer I have here down under and found a note as follows which I don't think we have turned up this last few days but don't hold me to it!!!!
1841 Census: Brockton, (nr Cheswell Hill)
HO107/906/ 6/ 5 p 5
Brockton, Longford, Shropshire.
Thomas Bayley 55 Ag lab Born in this County
Catherine Bayley 44 Born in this County
Thomas Bayley 17 Ag lab Born in this County
===========================================
Of course still no sign of Ann!
Cheers,
Bram
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Morning, Bram...
Yes, both z and I did find that one for you. Check the earlier posts on Page 1 of this thread. ;)
However, still no sign of Ann, other than z's possibilities.
Barbara
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Scriv2, If as we suspect there is a death of Elizabeth bailey in March 1839, and Catherine is shown as Thomas's wife in 1841, then I should be able to obtain a marriage certificate for the Marriage of Thomas to Catherine between March 1839 and whenever in 1841? Just need to see if that is out there someplace? Just a thought and by the way, of you and Z did find that 1841 reference previously, a old brain, sorry??
Bram
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Hi Bram
Yes you would be able to obtain a certificate if we could find a Thomas- Catherine marriage, but so far, no luck on that one yet.
They might not have married of course. I understand that they often didn't make it official for second marriages, for one thing on account of the cost.
My imagination has been running away with me on Amos Evers though...here goes, but remember I am being fanciful...
Could the father's name on the cert read Amos Evens/Evans?The handwriting can often confuse and an 'n' can resemble an 'r'?... Just a thought.
Now, if we follow Amos Evans...
There is an Amos bapt 1826 in Berkshire, Thatcham 11 JUN 1826
Father: Amos Evans Family
Mother: Sarah
In the 1841 census in June, he is 15 and at home, but in 1861 he is 34 and visiting Thomas J and Elizabeth Powell in St Julian's in Shrewsbury. He is entered as married, but wife not there with him. He is a Railway Contractor.
RG9/1871/33 p 6
There is a marriage for him in 1860 Marriages Jun 1860 (>99%), but there is a female spouse missing off the page - but I think it should be Harriett SMITH, transcribed as Shrewsbury 6a 255 .
EVANS Amos Shrewsbury 6a 1255
EVANS Edward Shrewsbury 6a 1255
FARR Hannah Shrewsbury 6a 1255
Now, thinking back to the Ann Bailey we found in 1841 living in the same household as an ag lab, Richard Powell aged 15 or 18, if you look at the original.
Now, could there be a link between the Evans and Powells and could Amos be visiting the Powells later that year and being the same age as Richard, meet our Anne?
She is obviously several years older than him of course, which could rule the scenario right out or could explain why it never was regularised? Maybe both parties fibbed about their ages??
Amos also has a younger brother called Alfred.. maybe your Alfred was named after him,maybe?
Not sure how the birth of John/Joseph Bailey fits into all this, but maybe his birth certificate would reveal the father - unless all you get is a ' - ' for father's name. However that could be quite costly ordering from abroad.
But remember, this is just me thinking very much outside the box.
And 73 is not old!
Barbara
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I like your thinking Barbara. ;D
I suppose it depends on whether the name on the certificate is Evers or Evans. Of course it is possible that Ann told Alfred his father was Amos Evans and he thought she said Evers, as it's a name that appears in the Shropshire area.
Amos Evers doesn't seem to exist on the 1841 census. (I haven't checked the 51 or later). So using a process of elimination
Are those Powells related to each other?
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Thanks, Ruskie - I'm afraid I do get carried away though.
I don't know if those Powells are related yet. I am looking, but not found anything yet. There are so many in different Powells and areas of Shropshire that I am not sure if I am out of area or not. The Thomas J Powell whom Amos was visiting in 1861 was born in Wellington as per the census and his wife Elizabeth in Wroxeter, Shropshire. Richard Powell in 1841 with Ann was resident in Baschurch, Ellesmere?
Hey, but I have just found a Thomas and Catharine marriage in Newport, but it needs following up to verify as it is of:-
Thomas Bealey and Catharine Aspery on 4 Aug 1834 Batch MO34741
If you call up the batch on the old familysearch site, the order puts Bealey firmly amongst the Baileys and variations of spelling.
Of course, this would mean that the death of Elizabeth in 1839 would not be ours.
Again, just a theory, Bram and a caveat that there is another Thomas Bayley and wife Catharine around in the 1841 census in Shropshire in the St Julian area, born 1816.
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Another supporting theory for Ann in 1841 as a servant in the miller Fletcher household alongside ag lab Richard Powell is that there is a Fletcher family living next door to Ann and George Taylor in 1861.
Not firm evidence I know, but circumstantial in that the families are known to each other.
I must go now as my head is swimming. Do excuse me if I have gone on too much.
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Important fact:-
Looks like the death of Elizabeth Bailey in 1839 is not the wife of Thomas, but is the young daughter of Thomas Bailey and Catharine/Katharine.
From IGI:
Elizabeth Bailey, daughter of Thomas Bailey and Katherine, baptised 24 Mar 1836, Longford by Newport, Shropshire.
Died 22 Jan 1839
So this rules out this as our Elizabeth's death in 1839.
Question : is this our Thomas and Catherine?
I will hazard a guess and say yes. The other Thomas and Catharine are producing quite rapidly during these years over in St Julians and if you look at familysearch, their births clash with the birth and death of the above child.
As to the marriage in 1834 in Newport, is it safe to think that our couple would marry there and the other Thomas and Catharine, based in St Julians, would probably have married in Shrewsbury? Or not?
What say you? Bram? z ? Ruskie?
Cheers
B
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Hello to all from Australia
I have just printed out all the research done thus far by all you kind people , 13 A4 pages worth so first of all my sincere thanks and gratitude. I wish my mind was as agile and I had the recall of a few years back, it would make life at the moment much easier!! I ahve posted an article on the Travelling people Board as suggested by Ruskie and will have to see what comes of that?
I have also just posted a lengthy article on this RootsChat site, and tried to attach a copy of Alfreds birth and marriage certificates, unfortunately I did not read the small print and as a result they were too large and I lost the entire posting!!!! Pays to read the instructions first!!
I will have my dinner and then come back and do it all over again, without the attachments!
Cheers,
Bram
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G'day to all from Australia
I am in the process of trying to determine which bits of information we have a general consensus on?
The first and most obvious one is that of the Bailey Household in 1841 is ours without a doubt and without Ann!
The second point I am a bit confused about as Z refered to an 1841 finding of an Ann Bailey in YEATON and Barbera followed up with YEADON but as YEATON appears to be in Shrawardine it may be correct, to an Aussie anyway?? Do we now think that that particular census record is the right Ann as a servant living with a Richard Powell in another room?
Thomas Bailey baptised 17 November 1785, Liileshall, parents Thomas and Sarah, if so they would be my G G G G grandparents.
Lastly, I think, the Baptiism of Elizabeth Bailey, 24th of March 1836, Parents Thomas and Catherine, it leaves a gap of 12 years between Thomas junior and this one but Catherine was still only about 39 so of child bearing age?
Anything I missed that is a strong contender?
I have looked at the certificate of Alfreds marriage and would be positive it is EVERS as there are other uses of the S elsewhere on the document.
On the Birth certificate there is only a strange symbol in the 'Father' Column and the same symbol in the 'Occupation' column, looks like a lower case Q coupled to a lower case P like this qp in a large flowery handwriting. I guess it must mean something to those in the know?
Am I on the right track and did I miss anything that is believed to be a sure bet?
Cheers to all wherever you all are,
Bram
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Hi Bram and Oz
Sorry about the Yeaton/Yeadon confusion - a typo on my part.
Yes, I think that is the right Ann - not heard back from Z yet on it though.
And as to Catharine, I think that could be the scenario - a child for their marriage, who dies in 1839. Would fit in with the idea of it being our Thomas marrying Catharine Aspery in 1834. I am still trying to prove that one way or another.
I am in Hampshire, UK by the way.
Barbara
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Hi scriv2
Thanks for that confirmation thus far, just about off to bed now, I am really regretting not renewing my Ancestry.co.uk last year, at least I could follow where you all are and perhaps for a while even get in front!!!!! I have not been on this site for quite some time and I am a bit overawed by the response! Beats being on your own nutting things out but I guess I was lucky and struck a bunch of very nice people? My wife can not believe I got thirteen pages worth of assistance. Thanks a million to all of you, it has given me a real lift as I deal with some nasty illness, by the way, I was born up in Scotland, a little place called Beith, came here in 1952 and they threw me straight in the army!!!!! Cheers for now,
Bram
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Hi All
Apologies, for not getting back sooner, with that said I have been following your progress and here are my thoughts:-
I think that the family in 1841 with Thomas and Catherine Bayley are the family of Ann, and that the address on Alfreds birth certificate helps to confirm this, although I am unsure that the Ann found in Yeaton is 100% correct, and although it appears that Yeaton and Cheswell in modern day terms is about 45 mins away, I am wondering whether Ann would have remained a little closer to her family, why would she have travelled so far to look for work, was that the norm? So here is another theory ......... The census for 1841 was taken 6/7th June and Alfred was born in Feb 1842 which would mean, if my maths is correct, Ann could have been with Amos Evers around May/June, and if the gypsy connection is correct then Ann and Amos may have eluded the census of 1841. I think the gypsy connection needs further investigation, as the name Amos Evers is quite an unusual name and doesn't sound as though it is fictitious, although you never know, so a post on the travellers board might be worth a shot.
Also who is this John/Joseph Bayley with the family in 1851, could he also have been the son of this elusive character Amos!! Have looked for a birth for him and could not find anything under Joseph, however there are three entries in the Free BMD for a John Bailey, b 1844 Newport, (Bailey also spelt this way for Alfreds registration in 1842) nothing for 1845.
Well, inspite of your broken toe Barbara you have come up trumps ;D And have certainly kept us on our toes ;D
All the very best - take care.
z :)
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Hi Z and Bram - asleep at the moment in Oz.
Yes, that all makes sense, Z...it will be interesting to see if anything more crops up on the gypsy forum.
And yes, I had thought as well that the 1844 Newport birth of John seemed best fit. It's a pity we can't read these certificates free of charge to see the father.
I have been busy trying to find out about Catherine and to differentiate between the the other couple in St Julian's, Shrewsbury.I have found a marriage which could be the other Thomas :-
Thomas Bayley married Catherine Jones, 15 Aug 1836, St. Mary, Shrewsbury, Shropshire
That seems to tie up with that Catherine having been born in Wales, as shown in later censuses and the area is right for that other couple, where all their children are born in Shrewsbury.
So that frees up the 1834 Newport marriage for Thomas and Catharine Aspery as a strong contender for ours.
I am trying to find out whether Catharine Aspery (or maybe Asprey or Astbury) had been married before.
Also, Thomas is entered as Married in the 1851 census, although she is not there with him, but I can't find a reliable death or census entry for her up to 1861, when he appears as a widower.
Sorry you are having health issues, Bram. It's a pleasure to be able to help and it's nice to get stuck into a challenge - especially when I can justify putting my toe up!!!
Ah well, back to the 1800s..
Barbara
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Hi
Just a thought, I wonder if your theory was correct and that Thomas Bayley and Catherine didn't marry, is it possible that she could have been buried under her maiden name ................ whatever that is? Or as the 1841 census does not offer condition of marriage, are we assuming that they were married and that the enumerator also assumed that her surname was the same as the rest of the household? And thus Thomas stated he was a widower in 1861 from Elizabeth? Does that make sense?
Z :)
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Yep, I guess all is possible at the moment with this one. We need a breakthrough! ???
As to John/Joseph Bailey - if you follow him through the censuses he only appears as Joseph once and that is in 1851. The rest of the time is John, which ties in with the birth in 1844.
His age in 1861 - as John again - on ancestry has been mis-transcribed on the record as 10 not 16. I have checked the image and have submitted an alteration.
B
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Christenings from familysearch, but still no father.
Alfred Bailey
Christened 11 Mar 1842, Longford by Newport, Shropshire
Mother's Name: Ann Bailey
John Bailey
Christened 8 Sep 1844, Longford by Newport, Shropshire
Mother's Name: Anne Bailey
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Hello to all out there
I have just finished reading the newest findings from you people and it becomes more interesting each time I read through your thoughts on Anne, Alfred Joseph and co.
As I typed Joseph here I thought I would go back to the marriage certificate of Anne and George Taylor to check the witnesses there and found that they were Anne Taylor, and JOSEPH Bailey! It seems strange that he is baptised as John Bailey as Scriv2 found and then decides he prefers Joseph but I realise that a lot of people prefer a different common use name than their given name which they sometimes dislike for various reasons?
I think now the most obvious thing to do is for me to send for John's/Joseph's birth certificate and see who is shown as father there. Is there any consensus on which record is the most likely choice record to send for rather than waste time and money?
Also on a similar vein, did Joseph/John ever marry, I have not found a marriage yet and can not remember how hard I tried. I am wondering who Joseph saw as his father? If I can find that record for certain then I will send for them both in the hope that it will be a eureka moment!!!! I will keep looking for Joseph's marriage in the interim.
Bye for now and once again my heart felt thanks for all your efforts,
Bram
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Hi Bram
Just read the latest intriguing development and I will look into it.
First thoughts are that surely Alfred's brother Joseph was too young to be a witness at George and Ann's marriage, so are we looking for a brother Joseph Bailey? I will have a look.
Also, I think I did find John in later censuses, marrying an Emma. I will have a look.
Bye for now
Barbara
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Here we are... looks like this is Ann's brother, Joseph. Makes more sense as a witness to their wedding.
Joseph Bayley, son of Thomas Bayley and Elizabeth, christened 26 Jan 1817, Lilleshall, Shropshire.
Barbara
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Fantastic!
Well done Barbara, that is fantastic and he is certainly one who would be a witness to her wedding as you suggest, every day something new seems to turn up? I am so frustrated that I am not able to participate at the moment in the on line searches as I am too caught up with doctors and such, perhaps sooner rather than later as I will now have to track this Joseph as well. I want now to get those one or two certificates, birth and marriage for the younger John/Joseph once I can be sure which to ask for. I am hoping that they may be revealing in regards to the status of 'Father' on the both of them and perhaps occupation if I could be that lucky? You have all been such a wonderful help to me I now look forward to tomorrow a lot more than of late. I will put this new Joseph into my family tree in case I wake in the morning and it was only a dream!!!! 9:45 pm now so time once again for a Milo and some bed, what a eventful day!
Kind regards,
Bram
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Hi again Barbara
AS I was just turning this computer off, I saw that the mother of Joseph was Elizabeth? Am I to believe that we are still of the opinion that Elizabeth is implicated as well as Catherine? I thought we had rulled that option out or am I still catching up?
Catch you in the morning, stay safe?
Bram
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No Bram... we are thinking Thomas was first married to Elizabeth and had Thomas, Anne and Joseph. ;)
We assume she died and Catherine was his second wife/partner.
Barbara
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Hi Bram
Now, I have another intriguing piece of the puzzle.
Accepting that Joseph is another sibling of Anne - and son of Thomas and Elizabeth - I have found a likely Joseph in 1851 and 1861.
In 1851 he is a groom born abt 1817 in Lilleshall residing in Newport with wife Mary A born abt 1821 in not sure whether Gnosall or Gornall, Staffs and daughter Mary A of 11 months born Newport.
In 1861 they are in Tipton, Dudley, Staffs. Joseph is entered as born abt 1818 Lilleshall and wife Mary A born Gornall/Gnosall, Staffs about 1822 with children Mary A aged 10 and William J aged 10 months. Joseph is a labourer.
Now, there is a marriage in Dec Q 1844 in Newport where Mary Ann Asprey and a Joseph Bailey are on the same page : ref Vol 18 Page 191
Remember I am thinking that Catherine Asprey could be Thomas's second wife, married in 1834???
Interesting eh?
Barbara
PS There is also birth of a Benjamin Bailey to Thomas and Elizabeth chr 28 Dec 1823 but dying 29 Oct 1828
and a William chr May 1827, Lilleshall.
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Good Morning from Australia
Thanks for the additional info Barbara and I hope your poor toe is on the mend? bit of rain down here in OZ and an enorous spider and web across the garden!
Well Barbera, I have faith in your delvings and revelations so far and I have organised my family tree to incorporate the five known and itemised children accredited to Elizabeth and Thomas. I have now sent for the marriage certificate of Joseph Bailey and Mary Ann Asprey and that should throw a bit of light on the family structure, Joseph's father and that of Mary Ann Asprey which could lead to an involvement with Catherine Asprey, possibly Joseph's step mother? Is that the way you see it Barbera? Also The witnesses are always interesting as was the case with the marriage of Ann and George Taylor?
Hope I have not got my wires crossed and I hope this certificate gets here fairly soon?
Bye for now,
Bram
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Next Chapter:
Hi Barbara and Z
I was just perusing and reflecting on the two Baptisms that you sent me, those of Alfred and John Bailey and thinking that while I have the Birth Certificate of Alfred Bailey, my direct ancestor, I don't have that of John Bailey who was Christened on 8 September 1844.
I have searched FreeBMD and found that there are three of them in Newport in 1844; in the March Quarter, in the June Quarter and lastly in the September Quarter.
As Alfred was born 23 February 1842 and was Baptised on 11th of March it would seem that Ann did not want to wait too long before Baptising her offspring?
John was baptised 8 September so when would be a likely birth date out of those presented above? I think that the September one would be out of the question it would be almost impossible to do? That leaves either March or June and I think March is too big a gap between birth and baptism for our Ann leaving June as best fit?
I think I will send for that one as well as the one mentioned previously, (marriage of Joseph and Mary Ann Asprey) and hope it is our Ann? Just to unbalance my new found confidence in these results, are we still of the opinion that John Bailey is Joseph Bailey and Joseph is John? I feel very much inclined to send for one of these birth registrations and see what it throws up, thanks too Barbara for the 1851 and 61 census extracts on John and family, if you have time and could be so kind, perhaps you can let me have those for my records, gee i'm missing my Ancestry sources! I had them until just this year, I never would have got this sorted out without the help of you kind people. Maybe with the birth certificate Amos might get a mention or who knows??
I will wait for your reply before I send for this one to confirm my sometimes doubtful logic?
Kind regards to all,
Bram
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Morning Bram and Barbara
Just thinking Bram before you order that birth certificate for John Bailey it might be worth your while giving the Local Registration Office a quick call to see whether they will help you identify the correct entry, the office which would cover Longford I believe is Telford and Wrekin Register Office - 01952 382444.
To add, and this may not have any relevance to your Bayley family but thought it worth a mention, with the name John being used in the family, I came across in the National Archives a will of a John Bayley Farmer of Lilleshall Date April 18th 1798, who knows might be worth a look?
Nice work Barbara ;D
All the best
z :)
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Morning Bram and z
On your logic of how long Anne waits to baptise her chidren, I would actually think that the September Quarter birth is the best fit as it covers registrations in the months of July, August and September. so Ann would have had plenty of time to get a baptism arranged without delay.
However,we are just guessing and I would agree with z it would be best to check out before ordering.
Very interesting re the will, z!!
Barbara
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A Eureka moment?!
Have just found Mary Ann Aspley bapt 13 April 1823 at Gnosall, Stafford. Mother's name Catherine/Catharine Aspley. No father.
So, I propose that Catherine and Mary Ann are mother and daughter and that Catharine marries Thomas in 1834 and her daughter marries Joseph in Dec Q 1844 when she is of age. Gnosall comes under the Newport Reg District.
I have also found a birth 20 April 1799 and baptism 25 April 1799 for Catharine Astbury in Stone, Stafford, parents James and Susanna.
James Astbury married Susanna Wainwright 7 May 1796 at St Michael's, Stone, Stafford
Barbara
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Hi Barbara
I think you could be onto something here ;D ;D ;D ;D
Z :)
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Hi Bram
Im related to the Taylors in Lilleshall. You mentioned Longfurd church in one of your posts, and that church is nmo longer there. So have you looked in Edgemond church for any records? x