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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Australia Bound on Monday 07 March 11 23:29 GMT (UK)
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Hello Everyone,
I am looking for siblings or ancestors of Elsie HARROP (nee WILLIAMS). I have very little information to go on except she married William Henry HARROP in Jun 1921 registered in Charlton, Lancashire, England. They had 2 children Phillip in 1921 and Ronald in 1927, and Elsie passed away in 1932 in Ashton, Lancashire, England.
I believe her parents were Alfred and Caroline WILLIAMS and she had at least 2 sisters:
- Alice May b. abt 1901 and passed away in 1963 in Perth, Western Australia, and
- Mabel b. abt 1902 and passing away in 1951 in Perth, Western Australia.
It is unclear to me why or when Alice and Mabel moved to Western Australia although Alice was married in Perth in 1934.
I am looking for siblings or ancestors of Elsie. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
AB
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FOR INFORMATION ONLY
see similar post on thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=519022.new
It is unclear to me why or when Alice and Mabel moved to Western Australia although Alice was married in Perth in 1934.
Did they marry If so - in England or Australia?
There is a free index you can search for possible emigration at http://www.ancestorsonboard.com/HomePageController.action
Have you checked the 1911 census for the family?
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
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The only Alfred & Caroline Williams on the English 1901 census were 64 & 58 respectively and living in Sussex
The Welsh 1901 has an Alfred K Williams and Caroline 42 living in Pembrokeshire but no daughter Elsie and youngest child is 8yrs old
There are 3 post 1901 marriages of an Alfred Williams with a Caroline on the same page on freebmd but none in the Lancashire area
www.freebmd.org.uk
As advised on your previous post - you need a copy of the marriage cert
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Elsie passed away in 1932
Age is shown as 38 so birthyear approx 1894
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I really value your assistance here. :)
I was also going on Elsie's birth yr based on her death records, but that marriage parish record (see other post for William Henry HARROP) shows that she was 23 when she married which changes her birth yr to about 1897 or 1898 and her father's name was Alfred Edward WILLIAMS.
I have tried the census info but keep drawing blanks.
I have checked the emigration records for Elsie's 2 sisters going to Fremantle (Perth) but have also drawn a blank. I actually don't even know if they disembarked in Fremantle or if they even travelled together. As far as a date range goes for travelling to Australia:
Alice May Williams would have travelled some time from when she was born (and probably not until she was a young woman) to 1934 (when she was married in Perth, Western Australia)
Mabel Williams would have travelled sometime between 1921 (when she witnessed her sister Elsie's wedding) and 1951 when she passed away in Perth, Western Australia.
AB
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I've found a likely Elsie and Mabel Williams in the 1911 census. They are in the Manchester area and down as born in Manchester. Not with parents, though.
I'll PM details.
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Working from what I found in 1911, there's a very likely family in 1901:
RG13/3746 ED6FOL188 PG41
34 Beaufort St, Manchester
Edward A Williams, Head, M, 44, Lurry driver, Ches Malpas
Carolind (sic) do, wife, M, 38, Warwick Birmingham
Harold do, Son, S, 8, , Lancs Manchester
Mary A do, Daur, S, 7, , Lancs do
Mabel do, Daur, S, 5, , Lancs do
Elsie do, Daur, S, 3, , Lancs do
Lennard do, Son, S, 1, , Lancs do
Louisa Over, neice, S, 22, (warehouse) Hooker Facy, Ches Chester
Henry Carless, boarder, 36, Lines? Keeper? Railway, Worcester
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Hello. Thank you so much for trying to find this out for me. :)
What I have on the 3 sisters birth dates, based on death info is:
- Elsie was the eldest. Now based on her death details it says she was born in abt 1893, but based on the marriage info it appears the death info may be incorrect and she was actualy born in 1897/1898, which in the 1901 census would put her at about 3 or 4 yrs of age
- Alice May was the 2nd sister and based on her death details from Perth, Western Australia, she would have been born in about 1901 or 1902
- Mabel was the 3rd sister and based on her death details from Perth, Western Australia, she would have been born about 1902 or 1903.
Now IF the death info is correct, then I think the family you found in the 1901 census is unlikely to be the family I am looking for.
Frustrating.
AB :'(
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Elsie passed away in 1932 in Ashton, Lancashire, England.
Are you certain this is correct? Do you have her death certificate?
As you now know that Elsie Williams was born circa 1898 there is a death reg:
Deaths Sep 1936
Harrop Elsie - Aged 38 - Manchester S. 8d 194
which fits her birth year.
Note: (Manchester S. = Manchester South)
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Both of William Henry and Elsie Harrop's children you mentioned in Post#1 were registered in the Chorlton/Manchester South registration district.
Manchester South was created in 1925 out of the Chorlton district.
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Southern Cemetery - Section: W Church of England - Grave: 2091
Pos - Name - Burial Date
1 - Elizabeth Harrop - 11/02/1932
2 - Emily Harrop - 19/10/1935
3 - Elsie Harrop - 14/07/1936
Deaths Mar 1932
Harrop Elizabeth - Aged 60 - Manchester S. 8d 341
(Possibly William Henry Harrop's mother - Elizabeth (nee Symms) b.circa 1872)
Deaths Dec 1935
Harrop Emily - Aged 26 - Manchester S. 8d 22
(Possibly William Henry Harrop's sister b.1909)
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Births Mar 1872
Symms Elizabeth - Chester 8a 382
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I believe her parents were Alfred and Caroline WILLIAMS
Why do you believe Elsie's mother's name was Caroline?
I can't find a marriage of an Alfred Edward Williams to a Caroline (Anyname)
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Hello there. :D :D
Gosh you are great.
I believe her parents were Alfred and Caroline WILLIAMS
Why do you believe Elsie's mother's name was Caroline?
I can't find a marriage of an Alfred Edward Williams to a Caroline (Anyname)
The ONLY way that I believe Elsie, Alice and Mabel's parents names were Alfred and Caroline is from the death record of Alice (or Allie as she was known).
Surname Given Names Sex Age Father Mother Place of Birth Registration District Registration Number Registration Year
OLIVER ALLIE MAY Female 63 ALFRED CAROLINE PERTH 1493 1963
You have subsequently confirmed from the Parish record for the marriage of William Henry HARROP and Elsie WILLIAMS that Elsie's father's name was in fact Alfred Edward WILLIAMS. Allie, although married to James John OLIVER in Perth in 1934 had no children, so the information on her death record is only as good as the person who supplied the information, which would have been her husband as her sister Mabel had passed away in 1951. (Mabel's death record does not show the name of her mother or father).
Elsie passed away in 1932 in Ashton, Lancashire, England.
Are you certain this is correct? Do you have her death certificate?
As you now know that Elsie Williams was born circa 1898 there is a death reg:
Deaths Sep 1936
Harrop Elsie - Aged 38 - Manchester S. 8d 194
which fits her birth year.
Note: (Manchester S. = Manchester South)
I am also starting to wonder if I had the right death record originally for Elsie HARROP given the differences in the ages. For example,
- on the parish record for the marriage of William Henry HARROP and Elsie WILLIAMS in 1921 it says she was 23 yrs of age. This would have put her to be born in either 1897 or 1898.
- the death record I found had her age as being born earlier.
The death record you found fits in more appropriately.
So where did Alfred Edward Williams and Caroline marry (if Caroline is her correct name), and did they have other children besides the daughters (Elsie, Alice and Mabel)? In the 1901 census Elsie would have been there and maybe Alice, but not Mabel (born after the 1901 census), although in the 1911 census they should have all been there (unless Caroline had passed away before the 1911 census)?
Once again thank you for your help - I really do appreciate it.
AB
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I am also starting to wonder if I had the right death record originally for Elsie HARROP
The only way to be certain is to obtain the death certificate for Elsie Harrop, which should state under Occupation (Column 5) either "Wife of William Henry Harrop" or "Widow of William Henry Harrop" (Depending on whether or not William Henry Harrop was still alive at the time of Elsie's death and also what the informant knew)
You can order England/Wales Birth, Marriage and Death certificates online from the General Register Office (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/) using the references found on FreeBMD (http://www.freebmd.org.uk/)
If you're not familiar with the type of information on England/Wales BMD certificates have a read through this - CLICK HERE (http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm)
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Hi there.
Elsie's husband was alive when Elsie passed away because he remarried.
AB :)
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PS. and thank you for the burial information on Elsie too. Looks spot on.
AB 8)
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Also I just had another look at William and Elsie's parish marriage record, and where it says the name and occupation of the bride's father there is a line through his occupation which could imply the bride's father was deceased at the time of the marriage in 1921. What do you think?
Also the bride's address is 25 Clopton St, is there any way of looking up records of who lived at an address in a specific year, or if 25 Clopton St was a residential address or a boarding house or something?
AB
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Also the bride's address is 25 Clopton St, is there any way of looking up records of who lived at an address in a specific year, or if 25 Clopton St was a residential address or a boarding house or something?
Trade/Street/Telephone directories, Electorial rolls etc...
For Lancashire (years 1911 and earlier) try: Historial Directories (http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/)
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Also I just had another look at William and Elsie's parish marriage record, and where it says the name and occupation of the bride's father there is a line through his occupation which could imply the bride's father was deceased at the time of the marriage in 1921. What do you think?
Whether a father is cited as deceased or not depends if the couple were asked the question (or volunteered the information)
CLICK HERE (https://www.familysearch.org/s/image/show#uri=http%3A//pilot.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.1.i/dgs%3A004497812.004497812_00328&hash=Mrd8SMocDIIen2Q83tu%252B82PRagg%253D) (see the second entry on the page) for an example of a marriage performed by Joshua Lord (Curate) the same person that performed William Henry Harrop and Elsie William's marriage service. (A further example - CLICK HERE (https://www.familysearch.org/s/image/show#uri=http%3A//pilot.familysearch.org/records/pal%3A/MM9.1.i/dgs%3A004497812.004497812_00326&hash=Mrd8SMocDIIen2Q83tu%252B82PRagg%253D) - see father's occupation column (second entry))
Never take anything for granted - people didn't always tell the truth - for example illegitimate people have been known to invent a father at the time of their marriage to appear respectable.
It does seem odd that Elsie names a father but doesn't give an occupation for him.
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Hmmm so I see. :(
AB
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Also remember Elsie had 2 sisters Alice May (Allie) and Mabel, and Mabel was a witness at Elsie's wedding.
Perhaps the father may have left the family and they didn't know? But they did know his name.
I just can't seem to find the family in the census anywhere either.
Frustrating.
Also I looked at those historical street directories (thank you) and it does appear in 1911 that 25 Clopton St was a residence although not for the Williams family.
AB
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The closest baptism I've found so far is:
Elsie Williams d/o Edmund Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised: 20 Oct 1897 at St. John, Manchester, Lancashire
LDS Source Film Number: 2148039
Possibly the same family as in reply #6
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Marriages Jun 1886
Innies Lewies - Chorlton 8c 1054
Quarrie Annie - Chorlton 8c 1054
Rivers Caroline - Chorlton 8c 1054
Williams Edmund Alfred - Chorlton 8c 1054
Hmmm... Who married who? (Not on Lancashire BMD yet)
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Lewies Innies married Annie, on 1891 with 2 year old b Garstang Lancs
Census Ref RG12/3461/90/31
Keyboard86
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Welcome back Keyboard86. :)
Do either of you think it is possible that the family in post 6 might be the family before both Allie and Mabel were born?
And do you think it would be the Caroline RIVERS and Edmund Alfred WILLIAMS marriage that RonOne found?
Maybe "Edward" and "Edmund" have been mixed up along the way?
AB ???
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Welcome back Keyboard86. :)
Do either of you think it is possible that the family in post 6 might be the family before both Allie and Mabel were born?
All I can say at the moment is, it's possible. We'll see what else we can find to either confirm or disprove it.
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Also there was a suggestion that there was an Elsie and Mabel Williams at Styal Cottage Homes, Handforth in Cheshire. The ages didn't quite fit for both of them (from the ages that I was working on), and there wasn't a mention of an "Alice May".
I don't know what Styal Cottage Homes is, or was?
AB
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Hi AB, just Google it, some lovely photos!
Keyboard86
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Hmmmm - I see.
AB
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Edith Williams d/o Edmund Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 03 Mar 1888 at St. Matthews, Manchester, Lancashire
Emily Williams d/o Edmund Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 21 Jun 1893 at St. Matthews, Manchester, Lancashire
Harold Williams s/o Edmund Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 21 Mar 1894 at St. John, Manchester, Lancashire
Mary Alice Williams d/o Edmund Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 21 Mar 1894 at St. John, Manchester, Lancashire
Mabel Williams d/o Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 14 May 1896 at St. Matthews, Manchester, Lancashire
Elsie Williams d/o Edmund Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 20 Oct 1897 at St. John, Manchester, Lancashire
Leonard Williams s/o Alfred Williams & Caroline
Baptised 21 Feb 1900 at St. John, Manchester, Lancashire
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Could the Mary Alice be your Alice May?
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Regarding Alice May - I just re-checked her death details and they say she was 63 yrs of age, when she died in 1963 - so this would put her birth yr at 1899 or 1900, so 1894 sounds a bit early (assuming of course her death record is correct).
Mabel's death record says she was 49 yrs of age when she died in 1951 which would put her birth yr at 1901 or 1902 - so this is also a couple of yrs after what you found.
???
AB
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Are those parish records for St Matthews and St John online? I was just wondering whether we could confirm if the "Edmund and Caroline" are the same as the "Alfred and Caroline" perhaps by their address?
AB
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Are those parish records for St Matthews and St John online?
The partial transcripts are on Family Search (https://www.familysearch.org/)
I've learnt to keep an open mind regarding ages. My wife's grandmother was born 1893 on her marriage cert in 1922 she gives her age as 25 (her husband was 24). Both her birth and marriage certificates that I have are the original ones from my father-in-law. My 3xgreat-grandfather aged 30 years over 20 from the 1841 census to the 1861 census, definitely the same person as always at the same address, with the same occupation and same wife and children.
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Looking at the family of Edmund Alfred and Caroline.
You have five names that possibly fit:
Edmund Alfred/Edward Alfred
Caroline
Mary Alice could be Alice May
Mabel
Elsie
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Agreed - very possible - and I can't see any addresses on that link you sent me. Partial it is.
AB
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Three options:
- Each entry on Family Search (https://www.familysearch.org/) is accompanied by a source film number.
If you live within range of one of their Family History Centers (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp) you can order the source film to view.
- Request a look-up if anyone is going to Manchester Archives and Local Studies (http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_studies)
It would help if you quote the appropriate film number for the church and year required listed here (http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_studies/464/church_register_list/25).
- Wait for a full transcript to appear on Lancashire OPC (http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/)
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Okay.
Option 1 is out (too far away)
Option 2 I will do
Option 3 will be Plan B
Thank you.
AB
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This may just be a coincidence but in 1901 we have:
John Harrop - Carrier with Van & Porter - Residing at 6 Jordan Street, (St Matthews, Central Manchester)
- Census ref RG13/3746/158/43
and
Edward A Williams, Lurry driver - Residing at 34 Beaufort St, (St Matthews, Central Manchester)
- Census ref RG13/3746/188/41
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So are you saying that both families (at least the father's of William Henry HARROP and Elsie WILLIAMS) lived near each other and the families went to the same church.
Also do you recall that both William and Elsie were the witnesses at William's sister Alice's wedding in 1919 - which is 2 yrs before William and Elsie were married. Perhaps the families knew each other for several years?
AB
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Both these streets still exist - CLICK HERE (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Jordan+St&daddr=Beaufort+St&hl=en&geocode=FfDwLwMd4and_w%3BFZ73LwMdeJvd_w&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=17&dirflg=w&sll=53.474108,-2.250448&sspn=0.002363,0.010525&ie=UTF8&ll=53.473833,-2.251318&spn=0.004725,0.02105&z=16)
CLICK HERE (http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churchmap?T=SP,CCC=LAN,ID=932) to see where St Matthew (1819-1950) was located.
CLICK HERE (http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churchmap?T=SP,CCC=LAN,ID=2710) to see where St John (1769-1931) was located.
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AB St Matthews is the Ecclesiastical Parish, not necessarily the church they both could have attended, and yes looking at the census refs, they are very close neighbours.
Keyboard86
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The Edmund Williams who married Caroline appears to have been son of a Registrar, so should have known how to write his own name. Maybe the "Edward" on the 1901 census was the enumerator's error.
1861 Church St, Malpas RG9/1891 ED1 FOL10 PG14
John Williams, Head, Mar, 45, Registrar of Births & Deaths & Spirit Vaults, Cheshire Malpas
Arabella do, Wife, Mar, 37, , do Neston
Mary Ann do, Daur, un, 16, Daur, do Malpas
Elizabeth do, Daur, un, 14, Scholar, do do
Alice do, Daur, , 13, do, do do
Robert do, Son, , 11, do, do do
Catharine do, Daur, , 8, do, do do
George Fredk do, Son, , 6, do, do do
Edmund Alfred Bulkeley do, Son, 4, do, do do
1871 Church Street, Malpas RG10/2798 ED1 FOL7 PG3
John Williams, Head, Mar, 56, Registrar of Births & Deaths, Cheshire Malpas
Arabella do, Wife, do, 47, do wife, do Pargate (probably should be Parkgate)
Alice do, Daur, Unm, 23, Dressmaker, Cheshire Malpas
Robert do, Son, , 21, Gardener, do do
George Fredk do, Son, , 17, Saddler & Apprectice, do do
Edmund Alfred do, Son, 14, Scholar, do do
Arabella Emily do, Daur, -, 8, do, do do
1881 Church St Malpas RG11/2872 ED1 FOL4 PG2
John Williams, Head, Mar, 66, Registrar of Births & Deaths, Cheshire Malpas
Arabella do, Wife, do, 56, do wife, do Parkgate
Alice do, Daur, Unm, 33, Dressmaker, do Malpas
Alfred do, Son, Unm, 23, Grocer's Asst, do do
Emily do, Daur, Unm, 16, Pupil Teacher's, do do
So it appears that this chap was in the habit of being known by his middle name.
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1891 RG/3237 ED10 FOL32 PG12
36 Beaufort St Manchester
William Beale, Head, M, 44, Lurry Driver, Lancashire Manchester
Harriet do, Wife, M, 38, , Warwickshire Birmingham
Harriet do, daur, S, 18, Tailoress, do do
William do, son, , 15, Cart boy, do do
1891 RG/3237 ED10 FOL32 PG13
Richard Beale, son, , 13, Cart boy, Lancashire Manchester
Elizabeth E do, daur, , 11, , do do
George A do, son, , 8, , do do
Edward A Williams, Lodger, M, 31, Lurry driver. Cheshire Malpas
Caroline do, do, M, 28, , Warwickshire Birmingham
Emily do, do, , 1, , Lancashire Manchester
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Gosh I cannot believe what you find!!!
Soooo - am I reading this right?
In the 1901 census at 34 Beaufort St, we have:
Working from what I found in 1911, there's a very likely family in 1901:
RG13/3746 ED6FOL188 PG41
34 Beaufort St, Manchester
Edward A Williams, Head, M, 44, Lurry driver, Ches Malpas
Carolind (sic) do, wife, M, 38, Warwick Birmingham
Harold do, Son, S, 8, , Lancs Manchester
Mary A do, Daur, S, 7, , Lancs do
Mabel do, Daur, S, 5, , Lancs do
Elsie do, Daur, S, 3, , Lancs do
Lennard do, Son, S, 1, , Lancs do
Louisa Over, neice, S, 22, (warehouse) Hooker Facy, Ches Chester
Henry Carless, boarder, 36, Lines? Keeper? Railway, Worcester
and right next door at 36 Beaufort St in the 1891 census we have:
1891 RG/3237 ED10 FOL32 PG12
36 Beaufort St Manchester
William Beale, Head, M, 44, Lurry Driver, Lancashire Manchester
Harriet do, Wife, M, 38, , Warwickshire Birmingham
Harriet do, daur, S, 18, Tailoress, do do
William do, son, , 15, Cart boy, do do
1891 RG/3237 ED10 FOL32 PG13
Richard Beale, son, , 13, Cart boy, Lancashire Manchester
Elizabeth E do, daur, , 11, , do do
George A do, son, , 8, , do do
Edward A Williams, Lodger, M, 31, Lurry driver. Cheshire Malpas
Caroline do, do, M, 28, , Warwickshire Birmingham
Emily do, do, , 1, , Lancashire Manchester
So between 1891 and 1901 Edward A WILLIAMS, Lurry Driver, his wife Caroline, moved next door to 34 Beaufort St and Emily is missing (so she must have died), but there is now Harold, Mary A, Mabel, Elsie and Leonard (which match the baptism records identified in Post # 30).
Interesting to see that Edmund from 1871 census is now using the name of Alfred (his second name) in the 1881 census.
Question: How do you know that the Alfred (or Edmund Alfred) from the 1881 census is the same "Edward A Williams" that you found in the 1891 census given it is a different address and different occupation. The only thing that I could see in common was the "Cheshire Malpas" (what is that anyway)?
Question: Are the parish records online where Edmund Alfred Williams married Caroline Rivers? Can you see who their parents were and where they were living at the time of the marriage and their occupations?
Question: If I was to purchase the marriage certificate for William Henry HARROP and Elsie WILLIAMS does it give me any more information than what the Parish record has on it, given Elsie's father's occupation wasn't noted on the parish record, and her mother's name was also not on the Parish record? I thought that it didn't, but wanted to check with you (just in case). Maybe Elsie's death record would be the better one to purchase as it should detail her parents full names.
Pt to note: This is also assuming that the death records of both Mabel and Alice May have their ages incorrect and they were in fact older than Elsie.
AB
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I just searched for anyone with the Williams surname born in Malpas around that year. To my surprise, there only seems to be one Williams family there. After all it's up near the Welsh border. "Edmund A" stood a good chance of being Alfred.
Just picked one census at random and then filled in the rest.
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Question: If I was to purchase the marriage certificate for William Henry HARROP and Elsie WILLIAMS does it give me any more information than what the Parish record has on it.
No, exactly the same information.
Maybe Elsie's death record would be the better one to purchase as it should detail her parents full names.
Parents names are not recorded on E/W death certificates (unless a parent was the informant or a child's death is registered)
For more information have a read through this (http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm)
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PEACE agian ;D ;D
So we should be able to find death/burial records for the parents Edward A Williams (or Alfred Edward Williams) and Caroline Williams sometime after 1901? And also checking if there were any death records for the childen Harold and Leonard during that period too?
AB
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The only thing that I could see in common was the "Cheshire Malpas" (what is that anyway)?
Malpas is a place in Cheshire - CLICK HERE (http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/chs/malpas.html) (Roughly 45 miles SW of Manchester)
Question: Are the parish records online where Edmund Alfred Williams married Caroline Rivers? Can you see who their parents were and where they were living at the time of the marriage and their occupations?
Difficult to say as the church where they married is as yet unknown.
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:)
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I found a death record for Caroline WILLIAMS in Apr/May/Jun 1904 in Manchester, Lancashire vol 8d, page 148 with a birth yr of about 1861. A possibility?
AB
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Births Sep 1857
WILLIAMS Edmund Alfred Bulkeley - Whitchurch 6a 640
(Cheshire BMD have the sub-district as Malpas)
I haven't found a death registration for him yet. He could have been registered under any of his names Edmund/Edward/Alfred?
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Keep this one for later:
Marriages Jun 1844
WILLIAMS John - Wirral 19 263
PARR Arabella - Wirral 19 263
Married 25 May 1844 at St Mary and St Helen, Neston, Cheshire - (by Licence)
John Williams, Full age, Bachelor, Yeoman, Malpas - Father Robert Williams, Maltster
Arabella Parr, Full age, Spinster, No Occ , Parkgate - Father John Parr, Bricksetter
Clergy: Wright Willett
Both bride & groom signed
Witnesses George Parr and Margaret Parr
You can find the above transcript available on here (http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/) (you'll need to understand the codes used on this site which takes a bit of getting used to)
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Elizabeth Williams d/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 26 Sep 1846 at Malpas, Cheshire
Alice Williams d/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 31 Mar 1848 at Malpas, Cheshire
Robert Williams s/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 29 Apr 1850 at Malpas, Cheshire
Catherine Williams d/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 11 May 1852 at Malpas, Cheshire
George Frederick Williams s/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 14 May 1854 at Malpas, Cheshire
Edmund Alfred Williams s/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 06 Jul 1857 at Malpas, Cheshire
Arabella Emily Williams d/o John Williams and Arabella
Christened 15 Mar 1866 at Malpas, Cheshire
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What do Alice May and Mabel give as their father's occupation on their marriage certificates?
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None listed.
Mabel did not marry, and Alice May was married in Perth Australia in 1934 and that information was not captured.
I did find Arabella WILLIAMS in the English National Probate Calendar, where it says she passed away on 5/2/1897, and she was a widow living at 36 Bath St Birmingham.
AB
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I found a death record for Caroline WILLIAMS in Apr/May/Jun 1904 in Manchester, Lancashire vol 8d, page 148 with a birth yr of about 1861. A possibility?
AB
I don't think this is our Caroline WILLIAMS as I found her in the English National Probate Calendar, and that particular Caroline WILLIAMS was married to somebody else. :(
I also am now able to confirm that Mabel WILLIAMS travelled to Perth Australia in Jan/Feb 1951. She was only in Australia for about 6 weeks before she died on 31/3/1951.
AB
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How about this for a possibility for Harold WILLIAMS? Age looks about right and we are still in Beaufort St
1911 Census
Harold Williams 18 occ Orderly Youth M C C D? b Manchester
He is a Boarder with Joseph and Harriett Fletcher at 38, BEAUFORT STREET, Manchester
and
Marriage Joseph Fletcher to Harriett Caroline BEALE March 1895 Manchester 8d 227
AB
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A possibiliy for Alice? Still in Beaufort St but number 36.
Harriett Beale 60 Widow b Birmingham
William 34 occ Railway Carrier b Birmingham
George 28 occ Van Man b Manchester
Alice Williams 17 occ Card Box Maker b Manchester
Residing at 36, Beaufort Street, Manchester
Alice is shown as Niece
If Alice is a niece to Harriet BEALE, is there a possibility that a parish record for Harriet Beale's marriage might exist online and we can have a look at witnesses and father's of the bride and groom or also for the Harriet FLETCHER (nee BEALE) marriage in the previous post?
AB
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How about this for a possibility for Harold WILLIAMS? Age looks about right and we are still in Beaufort St
1911 Census
Harold Williams 18 occ Orderly Youth M C C D? b Manchester
Any idea what the "M C C D" might mean?
AB
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Elsie passed away in 1932 in Ashton, Lancashire, England.
Are you certain this is correct? Do you have her death certificate?
As you now know that Elsie Williams was born circa 1898 there is a death reg:
Deaths Sep 1936
Harrop Elsie - Aged 38 - Manchester S. 8d 194
which fits her birth year.
Note: (Manchester S. = Manchester South)
Confirming for you that our Elsie WILLIAMS definitely passed away on 9/7/1936 at 20 Nell-lane (which I understand is the Withington Hospital) so not 1932 as originally thought. I found her on the National Probate Calendar which confirmed her husband was William Henry HARROP.
AB
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Looks like the burial (14/07/1936) in reply #10 is correct.
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Yes I would say so. :D
AB
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And as Elizabeth Harrop and Emily Harrop are also buried in the same plot that connects them to the correct family from the census (on your other thread) :)
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Absolutely. :D
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What do you think about that 1911 stuff that I posted in 58 and 59? A real possibility here do you think?
Also don't forget in the 1901 census at 34 Beaufort St there was also another niece called Louisa? (This might just be a red herring at this stage).
AB
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I think the 1911 Harold and Alice are the same ones that appear at 34 Beaufort St, Manchester in 1901 - note that Mary Alice is just Alice in 1911
The only problem now is the Y.O.Bs you have for your Mabel and Alice May.
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Yes I did note that Mary Alice may now have become Alice. I think the only way to prove their birth dates (not using the death record info) and parents is their birth records.
AB
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Ages on death records are only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
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If these 1911 records are for the children Harold and Mary Alice (now Alice) from our 1901 family at 34 Beaufort St, where are Mabel, Elsie and Leonard?
1 possibility for Leonard. I found a death record for Leonard WILLIAMS for 1902, age 3 yrs, circa 1899 in Manchester (vol 8 page 168) which matches our Leonard's age from the 1901 family at 34 Beaufort St.
AB
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I thought you had found Mabel and Elsie at Styal Cottage Homes.
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Hmmm - given they aren't with the other 2 children and they have been found there it stands a better chance of it being them.
I wonder what happened to their parents between 1901 and 1911?
AB
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Reply #51 is a possible for Caroline. If Edmund/Edward Alfred Williams died prior to 1911, it could be difficult to find a death reg considering he could be registered as just Alfred Williams, Edward Williams or Edmund Williams and given the fact that he was a driver he could have died and been registered anywhere. If this is the correct family it might explain the lack of a father's occupation on Elsie's marriage cert.
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Childrens' Services, hold some admission registers 1903-1956 for Styal Cottage Homes
Contact details are available here (http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_studies/3812/poor_law_and_workhouse_records/13)
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My gut feel is that Harriet Beale and Caroline Williams were sisters. Both were born in Birmingham and there is a mention of "neice" in the censuses.
In 1881, the family are in Manchester, and are all written down then as being "born Manchester", contradicting the 1891. But eldest child Harriet junior ( aged 8 ) has a middle initial - C.
Harriet Caroline Beale was registered in Aston district 4th quarter of 1872. Named after her aunt Caroline, perhaps?
Since the couple were living in Birmingham, they may have married there too, but I was having trouble finding a likely couple. Then I found:
Marriages Sep 1871
BEAL William Birmingham 6d 72
BREWIN John Birmingham 6d 72
Rivers Harriett Birmingham 6d 72
Ward Rebecca Birmingham 6d 72
It looks very much like that Edmund Williams - Caroline Rivers marriage is the matching one.
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Since the couple were living in Birmingham, they may have married there too, but I was having trouble finding a likely couple. Then I found:
Marriages Sep 1871
BEAL William Birmingham 6d 72
BREWIN John Birmingham 6d 72
Rivers Harriett Birmingham 6d 72
Ward Rebecca Birmingham 6d 72
William Beal married Harriett Rivers on the 24 Sep 1871 at Bishops Ryder, Birmingham, Warwick
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Hi All, yes Harriett is Caroline's elder sister ie:-
1861 Census
Daniel Rivers 42 occ Labourer
Maria 38
Ellen 12
Harriett 8
Eliza 6
Mary Ann 6 months
Residing at 14, Primrose Hill, Aston Birmingham, Warwickshire
Census ref RG09/2178/63/23
1871 Census
Daniel Rivers 50
Mary 43
Eliza 16
Mary A 10
Caroline 7
Daniel 5
Emma 3
Louisa 0
Residing at Lord Street, Aston, Birmingham
Census ref RG10/3148/46/36
1871 for Harriett:-
George Rivers 23
Harriett 17
Shown as Grandchildren to Joseph and Mary Pinson
Census ref RG10/3118/89/20
Caroline Rivers in 1881:-
Caroline Rivers 18 occ Servant b Birmingham
Residing at 32,Lord Street, Chorlton, Manchester
Census ref RG11/3922/68/2
Keyboard86
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Hi to keep it going 1851:-
Daniel Rivers 35
Mary 26
George 3
Ellen 2
Residing at Cottage in Garden, Aston, Birmingham
Census ref HO107/2061/177/39
Anyone spot a marriage?
Keyboard86
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Thank you for that.
To help find the marriage of Daniel Rivers and Mary it might be helpful to find out where he is in 1841? Their marriage would help us then find Mary's family.
AB
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Hi AB, Lets bump this up, anyone able to find this and previous post marriage?
1871 Census
Joseph Pinson 65 b Staffordshire
Mary 70 b Shropshire
George Rivers 23 Grandson b Warwickshire
Harriett Rivers 17 Grandaughter b Warwickshire
Joseph Bramwell 83 b Nottinghamshire
William Woodward 45 b Warwickshire
Residing at Baggots Court House Birmingham
Census ref RG10/3118/89/2
Keyboard86
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Well happy to bump it up, and I REALLY APPRECIATE all the help and information I have been given, but I am looking too, and would love some more assistance in finding these families.
AB
PS. Finding my way through the maze of English history and where to find information is sometimes very confusing to me, but this has been aboslutely amazing what you have all been able to find out for me.