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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: KathBMC on Saturday 19 March 11 19:10 GMT (UK)
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Hi all! I am brand new to "Rootschat".
Have a question please, I have original letters from my ggg-grandfather William Bradley (from Erganagh) to his son Bernard Bradley (in South Carolina) dated 1859. At this time, would you think that the Erganagh mentioned is from Co. Derry and not Co. Tyrone? Many thanks to you all!
Leenie :)
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There are 2 townlands called Erganagh in Ireland-
1) Co.Londonderry: Kilrea civil parish, Ballymoney Poor Law Union
2) Tyrone: Ardstraw civil parish, Castlederg Poor Law Union
Bradley is a common surname but there's this Will Extract for a Bradley of Erganagh, Co.Londonderry on PRONI website (www.proni.gov.uk)- "Administration of the Estate of Annie Bradley late of Erganagh County Londonderry Spinster who died 2 April 1915 granted at Londonderry to Patrick Bradley Farmer."
Howwever, there are also Bradleys in Erganagh Glebe, Co.Tyrone in 1901 Census- see here (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=bradley&firstname=&county=&townland=erganagh&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&birthplace=&language=&deafdumb=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=)
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Leenie,
Welcome to Rootschat. As Aghadowey has said there are two townlands (small administrative areas) called Erganagh in Ireland. in 1860 the one in Tyrone has a Jane Bradley as head of house.
However in Co. Londonderry in 1858 there are several Bradley families living in Erganagh and two of these are William and Bernard who share a farm but live in seperate houses. Bernard's house is described as "caretakers house". This may be your William.
Regards
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Oh my goodness!
Dear Aghadowey and Kingskerswell, thank you so very much for answering my plea!
I am so excited and believe that the Bradley's in Co. Londonderry must be my Bradleys! Kingskerswell - please, where did you find the information about; Co. Londonderry in 1858 there are several Bradley families living in Erganagh and two of these are William and Bernard who share a farm but live in seperate houses. Bernard's house is described as "caretakers house".
Yes, there is a farm that is mentioned in the letters - my GGGG-grandfather William and his Uncle Bernard would have had it...
The letter:
My Dear Son, Mr. Bernard Bradley,
I am glad to learn from Mr. Bernard Boyd, newly arrived from Charleston, that you are still alive and not engaged in this awful war. we have been troubled about you previous to his coming but thank God we are now in hopes of hearing and seeing you after the war is ended. We would be glad to know from you in case you could think of coming home and fall into Uncle Bernard house and land together with my fathers which is now into one Ticket and in my Father’s name and will until his death.
Alexander has L100 against it and Uncle Bernard labours a part of it for interest of the money. He and Family would be happy that you would never come back and was uplifted boasting that you were put down in the war. Now my dear son, I want you to send or come home with L50 and enjoy my possessions and I would be glad that you would set a time for doing so in the name of God and write home and let me know your intentions, yes or no, as I am but delicate and might not live as long as you would expect and I intend holding the place as long as I live for you. And in case you have any revenge in you you will set a time and either send or come according as I have directed. We will look upon you being ungrateful in case you do not reply I am sending this line as an enclosure. your father William Bradley
Thank you with all of my heart!
I am in Savannah, Georgia, USA
Love, Leenie
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Leenie,
The information comes from the Griffiths Valuation, a survey of all property in Ireland between 1847 and 1864 for taxation purposes. Co. Londoonderry was done in 1858. See http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
Regards
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Thank you so very much! :)
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According to the Griffiths valuation of 1858, There are three 'Bradley' families living in the Erganagh just outside Kilrea. John Bradley lived on the largest farm. This settlement still exists although the original building was replaced quite recently. The other two farms occupied by William Bradley and Dominick Bradley have disappeared long ago but I think I know where they once stood (approx). I've also been told that up until fairly recently the old wallsteads there were known as 'Kittys'. (Please don't accept this piece as fact! I'll make more inquiries on this). In c. 1835 a William Bradley married Kitty Convery at Ballinascreen (Draperstown). If you are trying to trace your Bradley ancestors still living in the Erganagh I have to tell you that only a possible descendant of John Bradley now lives in the area. Of course it is entirely possible you may be related to her, the only foolproof way of telling would be through DNA investigation.
Bill
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Hi,
The connection is not clear to me but William Bradley did indeed marry Kitty Convery on 10 Feb 1835 in Draperstown Roman Catholic Church, Magherafelt District.
Regards
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Dear Bad Bill,
Okay, first of all, how could you be bad if you are into genealogy? I just don't get it!
Any way, many thanks for answering my post. I have found it difficult to get back on track in my hunt for the Bradley's... but I will find them! I find it amazing that you know about the Bradley's in Erganagh. Something funny is going on here. I can't figure it out though... Through Facebook I was given info. about the Bradley's that still live on the "Erganagh" Road, I have even talked on the phone to Mary (whom I believe you referred to in your post as she who could be the descendant of John Bradley)... at this time though, I am not sure she has all of her family tree figured out and we have not yet made a perfect connection!
Soooo... how is it that YOU know of the Bradleys here????? Bad Bill, who are you? Where do you live in that you think you might know where the farms of William and Dominick once stood? I'm am quite certain that the "William" mentioned in the GV in 1858 is my GGG-grandfather. Hope and pray to visit one day and sense our "home"
THANK YOU!
Kathleen
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Hi KathBMC
I've spent a bit of time trying to figure out if you are indeed related to Mary. Her great great grandfather is very very likely to have been the John Bradley, a tenant farmer on this 30 acre farm in 1858. The Cassidys now own this land. In addition to John Bradley, only two other families with the name Bradley lived in the townland of the Erganagh at this time. One was Dominick Bradley, the other was a William Bradley who must have been your ancestor. It may be that these Bradleys were related to one another, perhaps brothers. Unfortunately, despite my research I couldn't prove this.
I now know for sure where William Bradley lived in 1858. This dwelling was only wallsteads until recently when the farmer removed the remaining structure and returned this to farmland. This particular old dwelling was known as 'Kittys'. In an earlier message I suggested that this lady may have been Kitty Convery. This is incorrect. The lady who once lived here was called Kitty Crilly.
Should you or your family decide to come for a visit, I would be more than happy to show you the site where William Bradley had his farm in 1858.
A few years ago, my brother was contacted by a gentleman in Canada of the same name who wanted to find out if they were related. They both decided to undergo the new DNA test. This cost a few hundred pounds but did indeed prove beyond doubt they were related. I suspect that for you to prove a relationship beyond doubt with Mary Cassidy, this DNA test may be the only foolproof way because the local Roman Catholic Church was burned in the early 1800's destroying most, if not all, birth marriage and death records. The burning of the Four Courts in Dublin during the Civil War destroyed these records also. This is why genealogy in the Kilrea area (in the R.C. population) is so difficult.
Bill
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......the local Roman Catholic Church was burned in the early 1800's destroying most, if not all, birth marriage and death records. The burning of the Four Courts in Dublin during the Civil War destroyed these records also. This is why genealogy in the Kilrea area (in the R.C. population) is so difficult.
...
just to point out that no RC records were held in the Four Courts. The Church records destroyed where those for the Church of Ireland, which had been deposited in the Records office.
Shane
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Hi Shane,
Thanks for this information regarding the Four Courts records.
I presume you will be able to tell me where I can find the state records of the R.C. population from this period?
Bill
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Not sure exactly what you mean by "state records of the R.C. population from this period." The only state records regarding Catholics would be in statistcs from census records but the only detail is number of Catholics (and Church of Ireland, Presbyterina and other religions) in each townland.
Any existing records (mainly baptisms and marriages) for R.C. churches are not centralised and are usually held by the individual church.
The government records (civil registrations of births, death and marriages) are a separate thing from church records and all these records survive- births, deaths and Catholic marriages from 1864 and non-Catholic marriages from 1845.
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Hi, the Roman Catholic records for the Parish of Kilrea are quite good from the time period and would be worth checking,
Births: 1846 - 1865 & 1874 - 1900
Marriages: 1846 - 1900
Burials: 1846 - 1877
Almost 160 Bradley baptisms in these records as well as 70 Bradley marriage records
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Not sure where you live but PRONI and Coleraine Library have microfilms for the following records of Kilrea (St. Anne's):
1) Baptisms, marriages, death 23 Aug.1846-26 Dec.1860
2) Baptisms Jan.1861-Aug.1865, marriages and death 1861-Mar.1877
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Dear All, I can't thank you enough for all of your help. If it weren't for you, I'd never be this close to the old sod!
I would love to ask a few questions if you wouldn't mind!
1. On the map of Griffith's Valuation: John, Bernard/William, Dominick and Mary Anne Bradley all have properties adjacent to one another #'s 6, 7, 8 and 9. I understand that there are MANY with the surname of "Bradley" in this area - so am I silly in assuming that since they all four share this farmland that they would be "related"? Please see here:
(http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/single_layer/i8.php?lat=&longt=&dum=0&sheet=27&mysession=2242691366808&info=&place=&county=LONDONDERRY&placename=ERGANAGH&parish=KILREA&country=Ireland&union=&barony=LOUGHINSHOLIN).
2. Bad Bill:
a.In one of the original letters I have from Erganagh in 1863 - it mentions Thomas Crilly - I believe he married my Catherine Bradley (the daughter of my William.) In your post you mentioned "Kitty Crilly" could possibly be a nickname for my Catherine - could you please tell me where you found the info on the land being called "Kitty Crilly's"?
b. Are you IN Kilrea? To know where the exact farm is is amazing! You mentioned that the farmer "removed the remaining structure" is "the farmer" a Bradley by any chance? Would be nice! Ha! ;D Do you personally know Mary?
3. Would any of you happen to know if the RC records for the Parish of Kilrea are available in any place other than PRONI/Coleraine Library, such as Ancestry.com's international version or perhaps Mormon records? Or shall I visit all of you in Ireland? :-)
Thank you! Thank you!
Can I help you all with any lookups in the states?
:)
Kath
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1. On the map of Griffith's Valuation: John, Bernard/William, Dominick and Mary Anne Bradley all have properties adjacent to one another #'s 6, 7, 8 and 9. I understand that there are MANY with the surname of "Bradley" in this area - so am I silly in assuming that since they all four share this farmland that they would be "related"? No, you cannot assume all the Bradleys in the area are closely related or even that they are related to each other.
3. Would any of you happen to know if the RC records for the Parish of Kilrea are available in any place other than PRONI/Coleraine Library, such as Ancestry.com's international version or perhaps Mormon records? Ancestry have very few Irish records. You can check the LDS catalogue online at www.familysearch.org- it they have a copy of the records you should be able to order it from your local LDS library for a small fee to be viewed there.
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Keep an eye on this website- there were more local church records but the site owner has had to re-do some of the site and everything hasn't been fixed yet-
http://magheragenealogy.org/index.php/home.html
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Hi, Thomas Crilly married Catherine Bradley 1856 Kilrea RC Church (St. Annes) Catherine's father is recorded as William Bradley, Williams wife is recorded as Peggy
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Oh my goodness JoeMc!!!!
That is incredible information! Thank you! Thank you! Where are you seeing this please? Is there any thing else on the record?
THank you!
Kathleen
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Hi, the record can be found here:http://derry.rootsireland.ie/ and is a transcription from the church register
I don't have access to the full record, it may give Peggy's surname and should give address information, to view the full record costs 5 Euro
Regards
Joe
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Hi all, thank you again!
Question please!:
On the Census of Ireland, 1901 - FORM B. 1. House and Building Return - The first Column is titled "No. of House or Building" and the listing goes from 1 to 14. Are these numbers simply the order in which the census taker ordered the households or do the numbers refer to anything? (as in the way we have addresses today?)
Also, do these numbers have anything to do with the "No. and Letters of Reference to Map" on Griffith's Valuation? I am trying to tie some homesteads together!
Thank you, Kath
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On the Census of Ireland, 1901 - FORM B. 1. House and Building Return - The first Column is titled "No. of House or Building" and the listing goes from 1 to 14. Are these numbers simply the order in which the census taker ordered the households or do the numbers refer to anything? (as in the way we have addresses today?) The numbers are merely for that particular census form.
Also, do these numbers have anything to do with the "No. and Letters of Reference to Map" on Griffith's Valuation? I am trying to tie some homesteads together!No. The numbers on the printed Griffith's Evaluation form will be those on the Griffith's maps- see
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
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Thank you,
I was hoping it was that easy... to tie house numbers in 1901 to the GV map numbers in 1860... I'm guess you are having a good laugh at this!
Kath
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Hi KathBMC
The location of the farm once occupied by William Bradley and until recently known as 'Kittys', is now owned by the T* family. This farm only came into their possession fairly recently. The previous owners were the Kennedy family. I recently asked an elderly neighbor if he could shed any light on who had lived in the old house and he told me he'd never heard Willie Kennedy (the previous owner) call the place anything other than 'Kittys'.
I don't think their is any doubt this is indeed the location from where your ancestor left to go to America.
With any luck the R.C. records on microfilm will show the relationship of the three men living in the townland of the Erganagh in 1858. The most important of these is if Mary's great great grandfather was John Bradley AND if he was a close relation to your William Bradley.
I was involved in writing a biography on Charles B. Franklin called 'Franklins Indians'. This book has only recently been published after many years of research. One of the most difficult pieces of information to uncover only came to light when I hired a professional researcher. Perhaps if you don't want to go down the DNA route, this may be the best option.
As I sit writing this message, Marys husband has just driven into my next door neighbors yard!
Bill
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Hi Bill,
Well, I suppose you have heard enough about my Bradley search, it is a fascinating puzzle. I hope that one day my little ones will appreciate knowing their history.
Funny you say that "Kitty's was previously owned by the Kennedy's!
You see, I have 3 original letters from Erganagh. 2 are dated 1863 and 1859.
In one letter, it mentions "Mr. Lawrence Kennedy & family are well..." As I see on the Griffith's Valuation map - Lawrence Kennedy's land was adjacent to my William Bradley way back in the 1860's!!! Perhaps the Kennedy family bought the land from Kitty! I wonder if any of the Kennedy's are still around! If you could ever possibly get the scoop from the T*s or anyone on Kitty's place, I'd sure appreciate it!
I suppose my next step is the microfilm...don't know that Mary would do DNA! Ha! I'd love for her to find out the names of her ancestors... hopefully one day!
Thank you very much way over the pond!
Kathleen
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Hi Again KathBMC
I really think you should stay with this now and try and bring to a conclusion! Mary would be prepared to go the DNA route, I've already asked her! But I think you should try and recruit a local genealogist to research the microfilm records first.
As I mentioned in my last message, I used the services of a chap called * from Co. Wicklow to find out some info on the family of Charles Bayly Franklin. (If any of your family are into motorcycles, they'll probably have heard of the 'Indian' motorcycle' This C.B. Franklin was an Irishman who designed the 'Chief' and 'Scout' models). The cost of this research was £200 ($300) and it was worth every penny!
I've already been in touch with the oldest member of the T* family still alive regarding this Bradley research. This is * T*. Unfortunately he was unable to say for if any of the Bradleys in the Erganagh in 1858 were related.
Willie Kennedy died a few years ago. Most if not all of that older generation who might have been able to help us have passed on.
Regards
Bill
* details of living people now removed in this and previous posts in accordance with Rootschat policy
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Hi, Thomas Crilly married Catherine Bradley 1856 Kilrea RC Church (St. Annes) Catherine's father is recorded as William Bradley, Williams wife is recorded as Peggy
Just a little extra for this record Peggy's surname was also Bradley! Just to make things more confused!
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Registered Death 1867 Volume 11 page 105:
Erganagh, Kilrea - 24 June 1867 died Dominic Bradley male, widower, aged 92 years, Farmer.
Bronchitis 2 months certified: Informant Rose Bradley x her mark, present at death, Erganagh
18 July 1867
1831 census Erganagh, Kilrea
Dominic Bradley: No 8 - 1 family, 5males/4females 9 RC
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This must have been the older, "Mean Uncle Dominick"!
Thank you!
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To all of you who have helped me with my search for the "Bradley's of Erganagh" I say thank you!!! I will be visiting in N. Ireland this Fall to visit the area. I am now certain that I have found the exact spot that my family lived on in the 1830's.
Thanks to all of you for your hints and tips.
If possible, I would like to ask more questions about my trip!
Many thanks!
Kathleen
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Dear Bill,
I'm just following up on this story and hoping you can help. KathBMC is attending our family history conference next week. Would it be possible to direct me to the William Bradley property (Kitty's) on a map?
Thanks,
Keith
Ballymoney Museum
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KathBMC,
just to confound your research even further, are you aware you probably have relations living in New Zealand, descendants of Dominick Bradley?