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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: ThamesDitton on Tuesday 31 May 11 17:37 BST (UK)

Title: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Tuesday 31 May 11 17:37 BST (UK)
For local history purposes I'm researching Sandys / Speers / Litchfields who were domiciled in London/Middlesex and in or near Thames Ditton Surrey.  Feel free to move this post to London/Middx if more appropriate there than Surrey.

I have Hannibal Sandys b 1794 London to Hannibal Sandys b 1763 x Ann Hill.   Hannibal the elder and Ann Hill had (at least) one further child, Richard Hill Sandys b abt 1801. 
Q1: Any others?

Younger Hannibal married Cecilia Speer in 1825 and they had (at least) 3 children:
Hannibal Sandys (b abt 1826 d as Hannibal Speer  1915 - changed surname by royal warrant in 1871 to meet conditions of Wm. Speer's will)
Mary Katherine Speer Sandys (?dob)
Edward Frederick Sandys b about 1833
Q2: any others?

Hannibal the elder and Hannibal the younger were in the same law firm(s).  Hannibal the elder died 1847, outliving his son who died 1835.
Q3: what was the cause of death of Hannibal d.1835? 

Concerning Edward Frederick Sandys who married in Reigate in 1871:
Q4: what was the name of his spouse?
Q5: children and dob?

Frederick Shirley Litchfield married Cecilia Sandys, granddaughter of Cecilia Speer(qv) in 1902 and added the surname Speer to conform with Wm Speer's will. 
Q6: Am I correct in assuming that Cecilia the granddaughter was the daughter of Edward Frederick Sandys?

Help gratefully received.
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: kmart66 on Tuesday 31 May 11 18:07 BST (UK)
Hi

Q4
Marriane Porter 1871 Q2 Reigate, Surry

Q5 (taken from 81/91 census)
Marrianne Francis Cecilia Sandys
Edward C H Sandys
Mary Ethel Sandys
Amy Maud Sandys
Edith Katherine Sandys
Violet Speer Sandys

Kevin
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Tuesday 31 May 11 19:29 BST (UK)
Many thanks - it would appear that Marrianne Francis Cecilia Sandys is the likely Cecilia Sandys who married Litchfield Q6)
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: genial on Friday 17 February 12 06:46 GMT (UK)
Have just come across your posting re above families in Thames Ditton.  While not directly related I have an interest in this family. 

Mary Jellico (1763-1837) married William Speer (junior)(1755-1844) in 1784 and they had nine children.
 
(1-5) Five of the children died unmarried

(6) Cecilia (c 1798-1863) married Hannibal Sandys (1794-1835) in 1825 and they had three children (Hannibal 1826-1915 unmarried - took the name of Speer to satisy terms of William Speer's will;  Mary Katherine Speer Sandys 1829-1889 unmarried;  Edward Frederick Sandys JP 1832-1910 ## see below)

(7) Wilfred Speer (c 1801-1856) married 1830 Sarah Speer (may have been a cousin - I've not investigated that yet).  They had two children - Wilfred Dakin Speer, b 1834 and murdered 1867 in USA (unmarried);  William Speer (1835-1868 unmarried)  Wilfred was rector at Thames Ditton for a short time c 1835 and was relieved of his duties due to unsatisfactory conduct.

(8) Wilhelm Speer (1805-1857) married Mary Taylor 1853.  They had four daughters (Mary, Ellen, Julia and Eliza Katherine)

(9) Eleanor Speer (1811-1880) married William Dancer in 1855
------------
** Edward Frederick Sandys (1832-1910) married Marianne Porter (1839-1911) and they had six children:
(1) Marianna Frances Cecilia Sandys (1872-1943) married Frederick Shirley Litchfield CMG DSO (1874-1922) in 1902.  He took the Speer name, the family becoming Litchfield-Speer, but later dropped the Speer, reverting to Litchfield ( London Gazette 1915, by Royal Decree, granted to FS Litchfield and his wife, permission to bear the surname Speer in addition to the Litchfield (and add this to his arms).  The Litchfield family lived at Weston Green I think.
(2) Edward Charles Hannibal Sandys (1874-1888 died at Lancing College, Ssx, - memorial lecturn in Thames Ditton church)
(3) Mary Ethel Sandys (1876-1957 unmarried)
(4) Amy Maud Sandys (1879-1950 unmarried)
(5) Edith Katherine Sandys (1881 - ? last seen 1901 unmarried and in census with family)
(6) Violet Speer Sandys (1883-1962 unmarried)

I hope this adds a bit to your knowledge of the family.  There are two or three headstones in the churchyard at Thames Ditton for various family members.

My connection to them goes back to Mary Jellico;  I am descended from one of her brothers.

Genial   :)   Sydney Oz   17 February 2012
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Friday 17 February 12 10:16 GMT (UK)
Many thanks - this is helpful,  particularly for  Jellico.  Speer genealogy seems quite hard to crack.

Do you have a cause of death for Hannibal Sandys d. 1835?  With his father (also Hannibal)  their law firm had got into difficulties.  His father survived him and eventually paid off the bankruptcy.

Writing to a local historian here in 1964, Capt John Litchfield (grandson of Edward Frederick Sandys, son of FS Litchfield-Speer) noted of William Speer II (d.1844) that he ""had 19 children - 16 of them in 16 years 1785-1801 - many of whom died in infancy"

On marriage at St Margarets Westminster (where Rev. Wilfred Speer had been for a while Officiating Minister)  Sarah is described in press announcements as " Miss Speer, of Park-street".  Wilfred's father William Speer's London house was at Park Prospect (now Old Queen Street), not far from Park Street.  I also am working on the likelihood that Sarah was a cousin of Wilfred's.

The case against Rev Wilfred Speer which led to his suspension for habitual drunkenness blew the village apart.  He remained incumbent ("perpetual curate") at St Nicholas on paper until his death, but he never satisfied the required conditions of proven sobriety to resume office.

Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: genial on Saturday 18 February 12 08:30 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your reply. 

Sorry, no I don't have a cause of death for Hannibal Sandys in 1835.

I didn't know about the 19 children - if it's true, then, Wow ! poor Mary !   I only have nine listed but there are gaps so could well have been others.  In my previous note I gave dates for four of the nine;  the other five I said died unmarried, but certainly survived childhood.  These were:

Eliza Katherine Speer (1789-1859)
Maria Speer (1791-1871)
Frances Speer (1792-1861)
Edward (1793-1859)
Constance (bet 1807-1812 - 1865)


Re the registers of St Margaret's Westminster;  there are limited entries on www.ancestry.co.uk from a few of these parish registers held at LMA, but as you know most of the St Margaret's registers would be at Westminster Archives - I have no access to them from Australia  :(    We visited Thames Ditton briefly in 2010 but didn't get to Westminster Archives. 

After much searching I did find an old map with Park Prospect marked on it - we must have walked past the site several times without realising it was the site of the former Speer home.

I have a copy of the will of William Speer (jr) and I was amused by the newspaper announcement of his death, viz., "by the death of Mr Speer one of the retired chief clerks of the Treasury, a pension of £1700 per annum is saved to the public" (London Times, Friday 12 April 1844) - couldn't say that sort of thing these days I shouldn't think.  Another announcement stated "on 11th inst at Weston, Thames Ditton, Surrey, William Speer, Esq, late of Her Majesty's Treasury, in the 80th year of his age" (The Standard, Saturday, 13 April 1844).

There are a few burials at Thames Ditton for various Speer family members , some of whom I have so far not been able to place;  some may be children of William Speer/Mary Jellico - some of the 19 perhaps

I know William Speer (who d 1844) was son of William Speer and Katherine Wilson who married c 1758 (this info from a summary of documents at Surrey Record Office - another place we didn't have time to visit - but I imagine you've been through the vast quantities of Speer and Litchfield papers held there)

William Speer senior died 1805 and his wife Katherine pre-deceased him, dying in 1780.   I don't know where the Speer family came from but it seems his wife's family had originally owned the Park Prospect place.

Re Rev Wilfred - I didn't know he had been officiating minister at St Margaret's;  wish I had access to the pr's;  perhaps one day they'll be put on-line - I wish !  I did find a report of his misdemeanours online.

In my note I mentioned one of Rev Wilfred's sons (Wilfred Dakin Speer) was murdered in the US - it was an interesting case, there's quite a bit online about it.  I have a copy of his will.  Even though he was killed in the US, he's buried at Woking.  Newspaper says "The remains of Captain Wilfred Speer who was shot on board the steamer "Octavia" near Fort Buford, Missouri River in June last, were yesterday interred in the family vault at the Necropolis, Woking, Surrey" (Pall Mall Gazette, Tuesday, 3 September 1867).  That's another place on my list of things to do if I get back to UK !

Hope all this is useful.

Genial  :)    Sydney Oz    18 February 2012


Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Saturday 18 February 12 10:54 GMT (UK)
You might like to read recent articles on "The Scandal" here: http://residents-association.com/tdt_pdfs/autumn2011.php  and here: http://residents-association.com/tdt_pdfs/winter2011.pdf

Since I wrote them I have - as is the way of these things - acquired a lot more info. I am thinking of maybe a book!

On Capt. Wilfred Dakin Speer's death, there is a good deal in our local Library in the Mercer Collection, including official reports from the US military authorities concerning the trial of the soldier who shot him (supplied to Mercer by John Litchfield) .  The body was repatriated

The Speers / later the Sandys also owned  13 The Grove Boltons West Brompton Mddx as well as almost a quarter of the parish of Thames Ditton, when that included the present Claygate, Hinchley Wood and Weston Green.

William Speer I was also a senior Revenue clerk in the Treasury (and also took a handsome pension!).  His son William II became one of the five topmost clerks at the Treasury; and Edward Frederick Sandys was also, I believe, a revenue clerk in the Treasury.

I suggest you pm me with your email address.  I have a great deal more (when time permits!) and you probably do, too.

Lastly, during the 1841 trial of Rev Wilfred Speer one of the witnesses, Capt. George Lambert RN (Lamberts are subject of a separate thread here) testified in fairness to drunken Wilfred that he had lately lost "within a short time, a mother, a sister, and a child"  The mother was your Mary Jellico; can you identify the sister and the child?  I was thinking Cecilia for the sister, but your date of death for her does not fit.  I know that her sons Hannibal and Edward Frederick Sandys were living with her sister (their aunt) Maria Speer until she died in 1871.

I haven't been able to find chapter and verse on the death of Cecilia daughter of William II.  I mentioned that her husband Hannibal was partner in a law firm with his father of the same name, and that in the 1830s it went bust.  Her husband died 1835 and I was wondering whether that early death was bankruptcy-related....

Where these Speers originally came from (before William I)  is a mystery; but that one of them was called Wilhelm is noteworthy - ??Germanic origins??

Wilfred Speer's grave (photographed by Mercer) also has plaques to: Wilfred's wife Sarah (1865) Wilfred's brother Wilhelm / Wilheim, d 1857, and his wife Mary (1885), and Wilfred's two sons Wilfred Dakin Speer (1867) and William Speer (1868)  Mercer was trying to find out why Rev Wilfred was not buried in St Nicholas' TD.  The above-mentioned articles should make the reason clear!  However, the public humiliation of Wilfred did not prevent his patriarch and patron William Speer II from being buried there in 1844.
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Saturday 18 February 12 10:59 GMT (UK)
PS I also have William Speer II's will - but haven't found the time to transcribe it into legible print yet.....have you?....

See also related Speer thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=550947.msg4042048#msg4042048
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Sunday 06 August 17 15:50 BST (UK)
With Westminster archives available online via our Library I now have William Speer's (b.1764) nineteen children by Mary nee Jellico as follows:

Mary Speer (b. end 1784? buried St Margaret Westminster 5 April 1785)
William Speer (b. 8 December 1785, bap 3 January 1786, d. ?before Sep 1796)
Thomas Wilson Speer (b. 2 December 1786, bap 1 January 1787 buried 11 March 1787 St Margaret)
Eliza Katherine Speer / Katherine Eliza Speer (b. 7 October 1787, bap Katherine Eliza 6 November 1787, d. 1859 buried St Nicholas Thames Ditton)   spinster
Maria Speer (b. 12 November 1788, bap 15 December 1788, buried 11 October 1871 St. Nicholas) spinster
Anna Matilda Speer (b. 12 July 1790, bap 5 August 1790, d?)
Frances Speer (b. 1792, buried 9 January 1861 St Nicholas) spinster
Edward Speer (b. 1793, buried 18 November1859 Addlestone, Surrey) bachelor
Henry Speer (b. 7 May 1793 bap 3 June 1793, d?)
Arthur Speer (b. 14 July 1794, bap 11 August 1794, buried 21 September 1794 St Margarets)
Wilson Speer (buried 1796 St Nicholas Thames Ditton)
William Speer (b. 21 September 1796, bap 22 October 1796, buried 1796 Thames Ditton)
Cecilia Speer (b. 16 May 1799, bap 11 June 1799, died - 1863 )  m Hannibal Sandys 1825
Wilfred Speer (b. 21 September 1800, bap 21 October 1800 -1856)  m. Sarah Speer 1830 (presumed a cousin)
Adelin Speer (b. 10 November 1801, baptised 24 December 1801, d. 1835, buried St Nicholas Thames Ditton)
Eleanor Speer (b. 13 March 1803, bap 11 April 1803, d. before 1811?)
Wilhelm Speer (b 18 July 1804, bap 14 August 1804, d. 1857) m. Mary Taylor 1853
Constance (bet 1807-1812 , d 1863) spinster
Eleanor Speer (1811-1880)  m. William Dancer 1855
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: genial on Tuesday 08 August 17 04:30 BST (UK)
Thank you for that info - it's been a while since I looked at this family;  I have had access to the online Westminster archives for some time, and also TD registers online.    Will reply in 2 parts

Here's what I have found:  (only included what is different from/additional to your info above):

Mary Speer

William Speer b 8 Dec 1785, bp 3 Jan 1785 St Margaret,  buried at TD 3 Jul 1796 (another sibling named William born Sep 1796)

Thomas Wilson Speer

Eliza Katherine Speer died 16 Apr 1859, bur 21 Apr TD  (spinster)
The Morning Chronicle, 21 Apr 1859  on 16th inst, Eliza Katharine, eldest dau of the late Wm Speer, Esq of Weston, Surrey, and Park Prospect, Westminster, aged 72
Gentleman's Magazine,   death;   16 Apr 1859, aged 71, Eliza Katherine, eldest dau of the late William Speer, Esq, of Weston Surrey and Park Prospect, Westminster     

Maria Speer
Daily News, Friday 13 Oct 1871 died 5 Oct at Weston, Thames Ditton, Maria Speer, dau of the late W Speer, Esq, of Park Prospect, St James's park and Weston, Thames Ditton, Surrey, aged 83.
The Pall Mall Gazette, Friday 6 Oct 1871 Speer, Miss M, at Thames Ditton, died 5 Oct

Ann Matilda Speer bur 26 Dec 1790 St Margaret

Frances Speer b 26 Jun 1791, bp 25 Jul 1791 St Margaret bur Jan 1861 Thames Ditton (spinster)
London Times, 5 Jan 1861, death.  On 2nd inst, Frances Speer of Weston Green, Thames Ditton, Surrey, third dau of the late William Speer Esq of the Treasury, Whitehall.
The Morning Chronicle, Monday, 7 Jan 1861 (also in London Times, 5 Jan 1861) On 2nd inst, Frances Speer of Weston Grove, Thames Ditton, Surrey, third dau of the late William Speer, Esq of the Treasury Whitehall

Edward Speer b 30 May 1792, bp 25 Jun 1792 St Margaret bur 17 Nov 1859 Addlestone (bachelor) 
The Morning Chronicle, 16 Nov 1859 On 11th inst, at Addlestone, Surrey, Edward Speer, Esq, formerly of HM Treasury

Henry Speer bur 25 Sep 1793 St Margaret (surname indexed as Speers)

Arthur Speer

Wilson Speer - apart from bur at TD 24 Apr 1796, I have no more about him except that I believe he was not just an infant and from the Bank of England note, it seems he is a son of a William Speer who died c 1805-1806 whereas William Speer husband of Mary died in 1844.  He is possibly then some sort of cousin.
Bank of England will extract;  Wilson Speer of Park Prospect Westminster, Esquire, died possessed of £200 of these annuities and dying intestate Letters of Administration dated at Doctors Commons the 29th of Apr 1796 were granted to **William Speer, Esq, the natural and lawful father of the said deceased who may dispose of this stock.  Registered 10 May 1796. ( ** refers to a note in the margin - William Speer is dead as appears by Letter of Admon of the goods unadministered of the said Wilson Speer granted at Doctors Commons 19 December 1805 to William Speer Esq the son and administrator.  Registered 2 January 1806)

William Speer b 21 Sep 1796, bp 22 Oct 1796 St Margaret, bur 20 Nov 1796 St Margaret (bur indexed as Spear)

genial :) Sydney Aus 8 Aug 2017   end part 1 of 2
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: genial on Tuesday 08 August 17 04:32 BST (UK)
reply part 2
Cecilia Speer d 18 Aug 1863 Kingston, Sry, bur 25 Aug 1863 Brompton Cemetery
The Morning Chronicle 7 Dec 1825  On Monday, 5th inst, at St Margaret's Westminster by the Rev William Johnson Rodber, Hannibal Sandys jun Esq of Great Queen Street, Westminster, to Cecilia 4th dau of Wm Speer, Esq of Weston,Surrey

Wilfred Speer d 25 Oct 1856 TD, bur Oct 1856 Woking, Sry.  Married Sarah Speer 26 Aug 1830 St Margaret.   (Sarah b c 1799 London, d 10 Nov 1865 Worthing, Ssx, bur Nov 1865 Woking, Sry)

re his wife Sarah =  her  birth may be one of these although various census records indicate a birth year of 1806 or 1811.  Said to be aged 66 when she died
*  St Dunstan in the East - Sarah Speer dau of Robert Speer and Amey, born 13 Aug, bp 27th 1799
*  St Mary at Lambeth - Sarah Speer dau of Daniel and Ann Speer, bp 23 Nov 1800
Morning Post, 14 Nov 1865  On 10th inst at Worthing, Sarah, widow of the Rev W Speer of West End Lodge, Thames Ditton, Surrey


Adelin Speer

Eleanor Speer - have no record of a death for her between 1803-1811.  Census records for 1841, 1861, 1871 all indicate birth year of 1811 - I can find no bp for her at St Margaret around 1811.  Eleanor Dancer d 22 October 1880 Battle, Ssx.  Married William Dancer in 1855 at Wandsworth.  No children.  (age given for Eleanor in 1861 and 1871 census indicates birth year 1811 but when she died in 1880 her age was given as 77 indicating birth year 1803 - I wonder whether there was only one Eleanor and she put her age down for the census because she was older than her husband.
Hastings and St  Leonards Observer (Sussex) 30 October 1880.  Died Oct 22 at Battle, Eleanor, widow of the late W Dancer and last surviving dau of the late William Speer of Thames Ditton and Park Prospect, Westminster, aged 77 years

Wilhelm Speer d 4 Mar 1857 West Hill, Dartford, Ken;  married Mary Taylor 1853
London Times, 12 Mar 1857 On Wednesday, 4th inst, at his residence West Hill, Dartford, Captain Wilhelm Speer, late of Her Majesty's 71st Light Infantry

Constance Speer b 11 Apr 1806, bp 10 May 1806 St Margaret, d 13 September 1865 Hailsham, Ssx (spinster)  census records variously give her birth date as 1806, 1809, 1812
Evening Mail (London) 25 Sep 1865  Died 13th inst Miss Constance Speer of Hailsham, Sussex, aged 60
-----------------------------------
The letter from John Litchfield in 1964 to ?I think the local historical society says William Speer and Mary Jellico had 19 children - 16 of them in 16 years.  He may have been guessing the number because it was such a big family and/or he may have included other Speer family members who may have been cousins and not children of William Speer and Mary nee Jellico. 
----------------------------
I have also found bur at St Margaret's for two girls, but can find no corresponding bp (perhaps they weren't bp), and can't slot them into the rapidly-reproducing family of William Speer and the perpetually pregnant Mary Jellico - perhaps they belong to a cousin of William Speer (he had no brother)

Lucy Speer bur 26 Aug 1795
Clare Spear bur 6 Oct 1797
--------------------------
Rev Wilfred Speer and his wife Sarah nee Speer had 3 sons:
William Speer b 20 Jul 1831, bp 1 Sep 1831 St Margaret, bur 19 Jan 1835 TD

Wilfred Dakins Speer b 19 Dec 1833 TD, bp 23 Dec 1833 St Margaret;  d 7 Jun 1867 USA (murdered);  bur 2 Sep 1867 Woking, Sry (bachelor)  Much has been documented about him and the events surrounding his murder. 
Pall Mall Gazette, 3 Sep 1867 The remains of Capt Wilfred Speer who was shot on board the steamer "Octavia" near Fort Buford, Missouri River in Jun last, were yesterday interred in the family vault at the Necropolis, Woking, Surrey.

William Speer b 10 Oct 1836, bp 12 Nov 1835 TD, d 5 Apr 1868 Park Prospect, Westminster, bur Apr 1868 Woking, Sry. (bachelor)
The Morning Post, 8 April 1868 On 5th inst at Park Prospect, Westminster, Wm Speer, Esq of West End Lodge, Thames Ditton, Surrey, aged 33


Genial :)   Sydney Aus  8 Aug 2017
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: ThamesDitton on Tuesday 08 August 17 14:27 BST (UK)
"Wilson Speer - apart from bur at TD 24 Apr 1796, I have no more about him except that I believe he was not just an infant and from the Bank of England note, it seems he is a son of a William Speer who died c 1805-1806 whereas William Speer husband of Mary died in 1844.  He is possibly then some sort of cousin.
Bank of England will extract;  Wilson Speer of Park Prospect Westminster, Esquire, died possessed of £200 of these annuities and dying intestate Letters of Administration dated at Doctors Commons the 29th of Apr 1796 were granted to **William Speer, Esq, the natural and lawful father of the said deceased who may dispose of this stock.  Registered 10 May 1796. ( ** refers to a note in the margin - William Speer is dead as appears by Letter of Admon of the goods unadministered of the said Wilson Speer granted at Doctors Commons 19 December 1805 to William Speer Esq the son and administrator.  Registered 2 January 1806)"

Excellent - this must mean Wilson Speer is the brother of William Speer (1764) and son of William's father William Speer (c. 1717 - late Nov 1805, buried 2 Dec 1805 at TD) who also rose to Chief Clerk in the Treasury and married Katherine Wilson.  I have the following summary in my notes:

"William Speer was born on 24 October 1764 and baptised on 6 December at St. Margaret's, Westminster,  the third child of William Sr and Katherine.  Their probable first, Elizabeth Speer born 1758, named after Katherine's sister,  died in 1827 (buried St Martin in the Fields).  The second, their first son named William after his father, was born 18 January 1760, baptised 5 February 1761 and died later that year, being buried on 6 Aug 1761 in St Margaret's.  Honor Katherine Speer, named Honor after Katherine's deceased mother, was born 18 October 1762 and buried 5 June 1763, St Margaret's.  William jr. - the second attempt at an heir named after his father - survived and thrived.  A further son, Francis Townley Speer, was born on 25 August 1771 and buried on 17 October that year."

However, I have not been able to find the birth particulars of Wilson Speer as son of William & Katherine.
Title: Re: Sandys / Speer / Litchfield
Post by: genial on Thursday 10 August 17 23:21 BST (UK)
Agree Wilson Speer must be brother of Wm Speer (b 1764) and I now believe I've located his baptism - at St Margaret, Westminster, b 20 Oct 1768, bp 19 Nov 1768 - he is entered as "William Speere, s of Wm Esq by Katherine".

As their son William b 1764 survived to adulthood, this then must be Wilson, but entered in the parish reg as William.

Have you seen the PCC will of Catherine's father Robert?  PROB11/825, made 20 September 1754, proved 10 September 1745.  The wording of it is interesting if a little repetititive - wonder what were the reasons behind it.

That's interesting about Elizabeth Speer c 1758-1827;  I had no record of her.  I had found the births of other siblings to William b 1764  - but my interests lie more with the Jellico-Speer descendants rather than the Speer family itself.

Katherine would have been a fairly old mother when her youngest child was born in 1771 - she was born in March 1722/23!