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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: lnr on Tuesday 14 June 11 05:29 BST (UK)

Title: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: lnr on Tuesday 14 June 11 05:29 BST (UK)
 I am trying to find the relatoinship; ie family tree for Andrew Murray whom married Eleanor Kilpack 1818 Paramatta nsw. It was said he was nephew of Sir Walter Scott? I dont know his date of birth or whom his parents were, can any one help/ thanks lnr
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 14 June 11 07:16 BST (UK)


This might be deaths for your couple -

4798/1858 Andrew Murray 65yrs at Parramatta
5827/1868 Eleanor Murray parents David K and Eleanor  Parramatta

There are death/funeral notices in SMH 19th May 1868 and 24 May 1858.
Eleanor is relict of late Andrew Murray, and 73yrs. They live at Brisbane Cottage George St Parramatta.

His death cert. will not have parents but birthplace, years in the colony, occupation might be good leads.

They might be buried together. Headstones sometimes appear later, and further information about family becomes available so you might have some luck from the cemetery.




Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 14 June 11 07:36 BST (UK)
It appears that they dodged the 1828 census, but are on the 1822 and 1825 musters.  Andrew came free on the Lord Eldon, and daughter Christiana born in the colony.  Eleanor is with them in 1822, born in the colony, but not in 1825.

Andrew's details from The Col Sec's papers
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/m/F40c_mu-my-08.htm#P3781_112883

As Wivenhoe said, his death cert would be the first stop to obtain his place of birth.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 June 11 12:22 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Re the 1858 death for Andrew Murray aged 65 as mentioned by wivenhoe (4798/1858)

The Probate Packets Index online at NSW State Records Office shows
Andrew Murray Date of death 21 May 1858, (Probate) Granted on 19 July 1858.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online#p

Also the trove digitised newspapers
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13012858 SMH 22 June 1858 lists the executators of his estate as Neil Stewart and James Milson (the younger) ... perhaps related to Andrew Murray Esq.

It is also likely that in 1828 this same Andrew Murray was the Superintendent of the Carter's Barracks, and as such would have been responsible for compiling the details of the inmates at that establishment.  Perhaps he overlooked adding his own family's details when preparing the census forms.

Google Carter's Barracks  :D  (one of my forebears was a lay preacher there in the 1820's)
 
PS, I agree, the d.c. would be a sensible place to start... then the next place I would look for further details would be the Probate Packet at Kingswood Archives...  SOMETIMES there's bdm certificates and other family history information in these...

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 14 June 11 16:20 BST (UK)

Re the 1858 death for Andrew Murray aged 65 as mentioned by wivenhoe (4798/1858)

Also the trove digitised newspapers SMH 22 June 1858 lists the executators of his estate as Neil Stewart and James Milson (the younger) ... perhaps related to Andrew Murray Esq.



James MILSON (the younger) named as an executor of Andrew MURRAY's estate was his nephew  :)

Eleanor's older sister Elizabeth KILPACK married James MILSON (Snr).


Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 14 June 11 16:24 BST (UK)

They might be buried together. Headstones sometimes appear later, and further information about family becomes available so you might have some luck from the cemetery.



Andrew MURRAY is buried at St John's Parramatta:

Sacred
to the memory
of
ANDREW MURRAY
who departed this life
21st May 1858
aged 65 years
He restoreth my soul. He leadeth me
in the paths of tighteousness. For his
names sake.
Yea, though I walk through the calley
of the shadow of Death I will fear no
Evil for Thou art with me. Thy rod
and Thy staff they comfort me
Psalm 23
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 14 June 11 17:12 BST (UK)
I have several resources here that contain information about Andrew MURRAY, the KILPACK & MILSON familes.
As I don't know what information you do have I will place these couple of snippetts of interest here for you.

One of them states that Andrew MURRAY b. abt. 1793 was son of David MURRAY of Greenwells, Scotland.

He arrived in 1817 on the 'Lord Eldon' along with John Macarthur (who was returning from exile in England) and had letters of introduction to the Governor.
Andrew was friends with James Milson who had similar horticultural interests and who became his brother-in-law.

There is information on his occupations, family, land holdings, residences etc., including confirmation of what JM posted previously on Carter's Barracks.

If you require anything else just request it  :)
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Tuesday 14 June 11 17:46 BST (UK)
Birth & Christening - Andrew MURRAY:

MURRAY Andrew   
Born: 27 Jan 1793    
Christening: 13 MAR 1793 - Greenwells, Melrose, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: David MURRAY    
Mother: Christian BUCHAN
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 01:54 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Wondering if there is any connection to Andrew Murray for a Thomas MURRAY, ex the Sept 1817 voyage of the Lord Eldon (Captain Lamb).   Thomas was sentenced to 7 years in August 1816 at Exeter.  His CF number 173/2763 was in lieu of CF 59/1273.   That's the same voyage to NSW for both Andrew and Thomas.

In 1825 Thomas was a labourer at Parramatta.

Re Sir Walter Scott, and a possible uncle to Andrew ..... I read online that he was one of 11 children, not all survived to adulthood. .   Andrew could of course be a nephew via Sir Walter's wife  rather than via the SCOTT line, or it could be that Andrew's wife was related to the SCOTT family tree.  It is also possible that there is no family connection.  As Andrew was born in Scotland it is very sensible to consider that people would consider him a "Scot" as this would be his native place.  And thus down through the generations the oral history has developed that to be a "SCOTT" ....

http://www.walterscott.lib.ed.ac.uk/biography/origins.html
Walter Scott was born on August 15, 1771 in College Wynd, Edinburgh. He was the ninth child of Walter Scott, Writer to the Signet, and Anne Rutherford, but five of his siblings had already died in infancy, and a sixth, Barbara, was to die when he was five months old.



Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: Essie on Wednesday 15 June 11 02:13 BST (UK)
Hi

Sir Walter SCOTT died 21st September 1832, Abbotsford, Roxburgh, Scotland, and his grave is at Dryburgh Abbey, Melrose, Scotland.

Abbotsford House was his home for many years. I'm not familiar with the geography of Scotland but it appears Andrew MURRAY came from the same region if he was christened at Melrose, Roxburgh?

Essie

ADDED
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbotsford_House
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 02:58 BST (UK)
Hi there,


a)   A possible brother for Andrew Murray.
From an online Index of Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
26 May 1786 baptism of a male MURRAY, father’s name David Murray, at Lilliesleaf, Roxburgh.

b)   A marriage MURRAY = SCOTT
From an online Index of Scotland Marriages, 1561-1910
3 October 1819 David MURRAY married Margaret SCOTT at Wilton Roxburgh  (The index doesn't show the couple's ages, status, parents or any of the "vital" family history clues) 

I think lhr should consider posting a request on the RChat Board for Roxburgh, Scotland re Sir Walter Scott’s possible nephews  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,111.0.html   

Some questions for lhr .... 
Please, what is the significance of the “E” in the thread’s title “Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT” ?  ;)
What NSW BDM certificates do you currently have re Andrew Murray, his wife or children .... are there any clues in those documents that confirm the information we have added to your thread  :D


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Wednesday 15 June 11 03:12 BST (UK)
JM, I also found a brother for Andrew that names the same parents I previously posted.
There are also a few other births to this couple.

MURRAY David
Birth: 09 SEP 1794      
Christening: 16 DEC 1794 - Greenwells, Melrose, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: David MURRAY    
Mother: Christian BUCHAN
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Wednesday 15 June 11 03:19 BST (UK)
This is the parents marriage:

MURRAY David m. BUCHAN Christian - 07 FEB 1790 - Of Bowden, Roxburgh, Scotland

Birth of Mother - BUCHAN Christian         
15 JUN 1766 - Bowden Kirk, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: BUCHAN Andrew    
Mother: HELM Christian

Birth of Father - MURRAY David
11 OCT 1761 - Bowden, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: David MURRAY    
Mother: Elispath HARVEY    

   
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 03:35 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Andrew and Eleanor MURRAY (nee Kilpact/k) married 13 July 1818 at St Johns, Ptta and the couple had at least two children in NSW :

Christina S, baptised in 1820 (Volume 1B, line 5289)
Elizabeth S, baptised in 1827 (Vol 1C, line 7885 and Vol 150, line 8) ***

I have also noticed that a David MURRAY married Elizabeth Ann MILSON 10 Oct 1827 in NSW.   ....
Merlin has already found (reply #4) that Andrew’s sister in law Elizabeth KILPACK married a James Milson(Snr) ...

I am not sure if that David Murray or that Elizabeth Ann Milson are connected to either Andrew Murray or his wife Eleanor, or Eleanor's older sister Elizabeth who married James Milson.

Cheers,  JM

Edit to add, *** Elizabeth Sophia MURRY (sic) baptised 1 April 1827 dau of Andrew Murry (sic) and Eleanor (from extracted IGI), and adding, Elizabeth Sophia Murray younger daughter of Andrew Murray Esq married Neil Stewart  :) at Bathurst, Scots Kirk. 

 
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 03:58 BST (UK)
A slight side-track ... re James Milson the younger (executor of Andrew Murray's estate) ...
Obit for James Milson   (no mention of Sir Walter) but .... James Milson (the younger) married a second time (as a widower) .... to Neil Stewart's sister (yes as in Neil Stewart of Parramatta who of course was the other executor for Andrew Murray's estate) ...

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14481966 SMH 13 January 1903

Cheers,  JM

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 04:30 BST (UK)
 ;D

An RChat thread about Sir Walter Scott,  from a descendant .... astral14

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,123176.0.html

Cheers,  JM

PS, I have just sent a PM to astral14 re this thread  ;)
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Wednesday 15 June 11 04:35 BST (UK)
Andrew MURRAY's eldest daughter Christiana Sarah MURRAY age 16yrs married Surveyor General - Walker Rannie DAVIDSON in 1836 at St James, Sydney, they went on to have a large family  :)
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 05:16 BST (UK)
 ;D
Andrew MURRAY's eldest daughter Christiana Sarah MURRAY age 16yrs married Surveyor General - Walker Rannie DAVIDSON in 1836 at St James, Sydney, they went on to have a large family  :)

When the marriage took place in 1836, Walker was not yet the Surveyor General of NSW  ;), because Thomas Livingstone MITCHELL was...  ;)

Walker Rannie Davidson was Surveyor General of New South Wales, 1862-1868. 

PS, I have not found any children with a given name of WALTER to any of these various families, and if Andrew E Murray was a nephew to Sir Walter Scott I would have expected that Andrew's daughters would have that in Andrew's grandsons' names. 


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 05:40 BST (UK)
If the connection to Sir Walter Scott would be via Andrew Murray's wife ....

Eleanor Kilpack daughter of David and Eleanor was baptised in NSW in 1795 (Vol 1A line 448)
 

I note that the Col Sec's papers 1788-1825 show David Kilpack receiving grants and leases of land in Dec 1794 and July 1795 and Eleanor Kilpack with grants in Jan 1816.

David and Eleanor Kilpack (McDonald) were married in NSW in 1791 (Vol 3A line 129)

Cheers,  JM
 
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Wednesday 15 June 11 06:02 BST (UK)
David KILPACK was a First Fleeter & Eleanor McDONALD was a Second Fleeter.
There is a huge amount of information & documentation available for them  :)
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 06:17 BST (UK)
 :) huge !

Anyways
Re James Milson (Senior)

http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/milsons_point

And a snip from part of one of the many paragraphs ....”When Milson first arrived in Sydney he took up a position as a labourer on Kilpack's farm in the Castle Hill area.”    .... It seems to me that Kilpack’s farm would most likely be Andrew Murray’s wife’s MUM'S farm, as David Kilpack died in 1797 (got his CP Dec 1794) and James Milson (Senior) did not arrive until 1806.

Still have not found a connection to Sir Walter Scott .....

I am trying to find the relatoinship; ie family tree for Andrew Murray whom married Eleanor Kilpack 1818 Paramatta nsw. It was said he was nephew of Sir Walter Scott? I dont know his date of birth or whom his parents were, can any one help/ thanks lnr

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 06:40 BST (UK)
Agh ....

NSW State Library

http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=887858

Series 01: Milson family further papers, 1848-ca. 2000

Folder 4: Correspondence concerning Andrew Murray’s family connection with Sir Walter Scott. Includes Scott family tree and letters to Betts family members ....... (circa the 1960's I presume)

Cheers,  JM 
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 06:43 BST (UK)
NSW STATE LIBRARY
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=887839

Folder 2: Miscellaneous papers of Andrew Murray, includes copies of letters from his uncle Sir Walter Scott, 1813, letter book,1833-1835, with typed transcripts, legal documents including Andrew Murray’s will and documents about land owned by Murray

SO, Sir Walter Scott wrote to Andrew Murray in 1813, and that was before Andrew married Eleanor ... so the connection is via one of Andrew's parents... 

Cheers,  JM


Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Wednesday 15 June 11 06:56 BST (UK)
Brilliant JM  ;D

In reply #7 I noted Andrew's parents names & in reply #12 both sets of his grandparents.

So, one would have to work from those names to try & find the connection  :-\

I'm hoping that it is the famed 'Sir Walter Scott' as there are a few Sir Walter Scott's around that time in history.
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 07:01 BST (UK)
Yes, that seems to be the way to go !   

Of course, lhr could contact the NSW State Library direct... to seek access to those archived materials

http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/using/contact/index.html


Birth & Christening - Andrew MURRAY:

MURRAY Andrew   
Born: 27 Jan 1793    
Christening: 13 MAR 1793 - Greenwells, Melrose, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: David MURRAY    
Mother: Christian BUCHAN

This is the parents marriage:

MURRAY David m. BUCHAN Christian - 07 FEB 1790 - Of Bowden, Roxburgh, Scotland

Birth of Mother - BUCHAN Christian         
15 JUN 1766 - Bowden Kirk, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: BUCHAN Andrew    
Mother: HELM Christian

Birth of Father - MURRAY David
11 OCT 1761 - Bowden, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: David MURRAY    
Mother: Elispath HARVEY    

   


PUTTING THESE HERE to help !

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 07:08 BST (UK)
As to which Sir Walter ...

I have presumed it would be this one ....  Sir Walter Scott 15 August 1771 – 21 September 1832

Samples of Sir Walter Scott's handwriting (to compare with copies of the letters to Andrew Murray to confirm which Sir Walter Scott)

http://www.walterscott.lib.ed.ac.uk/correspond.html


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 15 June 11 08:56 BST (UK)
Hi there,

The following info needs to be VERIFIED ....  I have gleened this from various online resources today, most of those resources seem to have overlooked including any citations or references or sources.  I am NOT familiar with Scottish records.   I firmly believe that it is important to find the primary records, and I urge lhr to consider seeking out the primary records, particularly those holdings at the NSW State Library. 

I include the reminder that the info in this post is SPECULATIVE, it is based on my reading of SUBMITTED online information, some of which includes biographical material from digitised images of published books about Sir Walter 1771-1832.  Please do not rely on the information in this post, but perhaps use it as clues to seek out and to verify/confirm or to eliminate the apparent connection to Andrew Murray 1793-1858.    

I am simply SPECULATING that
a)  Walter Scott 1771-1832 was seventh son of Walter Scott 1729-1799 & Ann Rutherford 1738-1819
b)  Walter Scott 1729-1799 was son of Robert Scott 1695-1775 and Barbara Haliburton 1700- ?
c)  Ann Rutherford 1738- 1819 was daughter of Dr John Rutherford and ?
d)  Walter Scott 1771-1832 married 24th December 1797, Margaret Charlotte Charpentier.1773-1826.   Margaret’s mother was Charlotte Volere.
e)  Children of Ann Rutherford and Walter Scott would include  (obviously if Sir Walter was the seventh son, then there’s other sons and possibly other daughters not listed here) :
Jean
Barbara 1767-1772
Robert 1767 –
John 1768-1816
Walter 1768-1832
Ann 1772-1802
Thomas 1774-1823
Daniel 1775-1806 

Cheers,  JM,   
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: astral14 on Wednesday 15 June 11 18:44 BST (UK)

I am simply SPECULATING that
a)  Walter Scott 1771-1832 was seventh son of Walter Scott 1729-1799 & Ann Rutherford 1738-1819
b)  Walter Scott 1729-1799 was son of Robert Scott 1695-1775 and Barbara Haliburton 1700- ? AND THIS ROBERT SCOTT 1729 WAS THE SON OF WALTER 'BEARDIE' SCOTT 1680
c)  Ann Rutherford 1738- 1819 was daughter of Dr John Rutherford and ?
d)  Walter Scott 1771-1832 married 24th December 1797, Margaret Charlotte Charpentier.1773-1826.   Margaret’s mother was Charlotte Volere.  THE FATHER WAS JEAN CHARPENTIER. MARGARET CALLED HERSELF CARPENTER. THEY FLED THE REVOLUTION AND THE FATHER, THEN DEAD, HAD INVESTED SOME MONEY IN ENGLAND ON THE ESTATE OF LORD DOWNSHIRE. CHARLOTTE HAD A BROTHER CALLED CHARLES.
e)  Children of Ann Rutherford and Walter Scott would include  (obviously if Sir Walter was the seventh son, then there’s other sons and possibly other daughters not listed here) :
Jean
Barbara 1767-1772
Robert 1767 – 1783 (EAST INDIES)
John 1768-1816
Walter 1768-1832
Ann 1772-1802 (I HAVE HER DYING AS 1861 - IT COULD BE ANOTHER ANNE)
Thomas 1774-1823 - WAS A CAPTAIN AND WENT TO CANADA AND MARRIED AN ELIZXABETH MCCULLOUGH
Daniel 1775-1806 

Cheers,  JM,   

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: astral14 on Wednesday 15 June 11 19:07 BST (UK)
I have added some details in capitals - it should read Elizabeth MacCulloch...

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: lnr on Wednesday 15 June 11 21:36 BST (UK)
wow i am absolutely flabergasted. I am doing this research for my brother in law whoms grandfather was Sir Joseph Ward premier of nz. As is live in nz I didnt think that I was able to get the access to the Milson papers to get the connection re the tree without being a member of the library and being in nsw. Walker Rainey(Rannie) Davidson is  one of the connections here. Thank you so much for all the work that has been put into finding this info  and is very much appreciated. I dont know where Id be without you all! regards lnr
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 June 11 00:44 BST (UK)
Hi there,

On the NSW State Library's contact details (linked earlier) there's an email address.  I was first introduced to their vast collections back in the late 1950's.  As far as I know it has always been open to the public, regardless of where you live.   I have a readers card, but I don't live in Sydney.  Readers cards are available for NSW residents. 

May I suggest you contact the Library via email, asking for help, I have always found the staff to be friendly, knowledgeable and co-operative.   The holdings are vast, and cover the foundations of all the colonies, including New Zealand (which of course was in the decades before 1841 administered from Sydney NSW). 

I feel that the index seems to show correspondence from Sir Walter Scott to Andrew Murray in 1813. And from this thread we know that Andrew was not yet in Australia (arriving Sept 1817).

 :D Don't overlook the possibility that the Uncle/nephew relationship may be one of Godparent or similar honorary title.
 :D And do consider posting on the RChat Scotland boards (Roxburghshire etc), for help with the 1813 era details.   
 ;) Perhaps Andrew Murray was in the army or navy before coming to NSW, or in civil administration - you don't get to be superindentent of the Carter's Barracks without some experience (many of the early appointments were people appointed by Whitehall and sent out from England specifically ... eg C N P Wilton and wife to head the Female Factory at Parramatta arrived 1827, which seems to be same era that Andrew Murray was at the Carter's Barracks.  ....

As mentioned earlier, I am not at all familiar with Scottish Records, sorry, but thank you Astral14 for adding the details to my speculations  :D. 

Cheers,  JM
 

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 June 11 02:02 BST (UK)
Hi there,

On  SUBMITTED online trees, (so needs verifying, confirming) there’s
Andrew Murray, born 27 Jan 1793, at Greenwells, Roxbrugh Scotland,  son of David Murray and Christian Buchan.
   
Andrew is shown as the husband of (no marriage details shown, except for 1813) Elizabeth Elliot.  Elizabeth Elliot is shown as born 20 Sept 1795 and died 3 Jan 1816. (born and died Gallonside, Roxburgh, Scotland). 

There is one child shown to the couple (Andrew and Elizabeth Murray m.s. Elliot)....  John Murrary born 20 June 1814, at Galashiels, Scotland and died Spanish Fork, Utah, USA 15 Nov 1880  He is shown to have married, and descendants are shown on the submitted trees...
 
Speculations again, but IF the submitted trees are “correct” then perhaps there’s a reason or two for Sir Walter writing in 1813 to Andrew (perhaps congratulations on your wedding etc) and also a reason or two for Andrew coming to NSW in 1817 (death of his wife) ...  the submitted tree does NOT give any further information about Andrew, (so no info about him in NSW, no further marriage, no end date, no explanation as to when John arrived in the USA, etc). 

There’s no apparent connection to Sir Walter Scott on those submitted trees either....


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: astral14 on Sunday 19 June 11 16:02 BST (UK)
You might find that the connection is much higher up the family tree. A bit of digging has turned up an Agnes Murray, daughter of Sir Gideon Murray of Elibank who married William Scott. The story goes that William trespassed on the lands of Murray and he had him strung up to be hung unless he agreed to certain conditions, one of which was to marry his rather ugly daughter, Agnes...This William, became William Scott of Harden.

William Scott of Harden's father was Walter Scott of Harden (Auld Wat). He had another son, Walter Scott who had been converted to Quakerism. He was known as Walter Scott of Raeburn. His family had him imprisoned to try to unconvert him and took his children away from his 'evil' influence. One of these children was Walter 'Beardie' Scott, the great grandfather of the novelist, Sir Walter Scott.

I am wondering if this is the Murray connection. You will have to look at the tree of Sir Gideon Murray of Elibank.
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Monday 20 June 11 03:05 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Do you have any knowledge of a first marriage for this Andrew Murray ... perhaps she was a niece to Sir Walter ...  my reply # 31 gives some info about her, but it is drawn from a submitted online tree.  (Elizabeth Elliot 1795 -1816, marriage to Andrew c 1813) 

I suspect there would be much to learn from the folders at the NSW State Library's holdings...

Cheers,  JM

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: lnr on Monday 20 June 11 03:34 BST (UK)
THANKYOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR ON GOING RESeaRCH FOR ME it is all  so very interesting,very much appreciated also . Will try to get in touch with the library soon thanks lnr
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Thursday 16 February 12 00:07 GMT (UK)
Hi

I wonder if you found the connection

Cheers JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: lnr on Thursday 16 February 12 02:29 GMT (UK)
Hi, no i passed all the info on to my brother in law whom is sir joseph Wards grandson and is related to the Murrays on the davidson side,so i dont know if he has done anything as yet, thanks lnr
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: sandralost on Thursday 16 February 12 07:55 GMT (UK)
Hello I have a great grandmother b 1879 Margaret Bentley nee Findlay also possibly nee Scott (Sydney Australia) who used to say she was a direct descendant of Sir Walter Scott (poet). Her name was Margaret Scott (before she married a Andrew Findlay). She migrated to Australia from Scotland. Her parents were Andrew Scott and Margaret Scott. Andrew Scott was the son of Janet Scott who was related to Sir Walter Scott maybe through a sister in-law/niece Elizabeth? Any help appreciated!

the 1881 Scotish census has
Andrew Findlay 29 b Cullen Banffshire - Tailor
Janet Findlay wife 26 b Jedburgh Roxburgshire
William J Scott stepson 7 b Jedburgh
Andrew J Scott 6 nephew b same
Maggie Findley daug 2 b same
Margaret Scott 62 Mother-in-law - Drapers widow
and a boarder William Ovens
at 19 Exchange St, Jedburgh Roxburghshire

Janet's family on 1861 census
Andrew Scott 44 b Barden Roxburghshire a com traveller
Margaret wife 43 b Morebattle Roxburghshire
William R Scott son 10 b Jedburgh Roxburghshire
Margaret daug 8 b same
Janet daug 6 b same
at 9 Market Place Roxburghshire.

1851 Scotland census for Andrew Scott and family.

Andrew Scott 33 head b Bowden Roxburghshire - ag lab = born in 1818
Hannah wife 28 b England
William son 1 wk b Jedburgh
Marg Potts 49 Mother-in-law b England - farmers wife
Mary Thomson 13 cousin-in-law b England
Mary Drummond 12 cousin-in-law b England
at Overwells Cottage Jedburgh Roxburghshire
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: totnesmv on Wednesday 11 April 12 06:42 BST (UK)
I have an ANDREW MURRAY   Male     
 Birth:  27 JAN 1793   
 Christening:  13 MAR 1793   Greenwells, Melrose, Roxburgh, Scotland
Parents:
  Father:  DAVID MURRAY  Family
  Mother:  CHRISTIAN BUCHAN 
on my family tree.      I can't find that he has any connection to Sir Walter Scott but I believe he may have worked at Abbotford at some time.
I descend down from David Murray's father David Murray b abt 1723 and his 2nd wife Agnes Gray.   I am hoping the Andrew you are interested in is my Andrew as we couldn't find what happened to him.
Georgia
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 06:53 BST (UK)
Hi there Georgia,

Welcome to Rootschat....

If you make two more posts, you will be able to exchange Private Messages (PM) with any other Rchatter..... including the RChatter who started this thread.

Just reply twice more, even if to say HI only


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: totnesmv on Friday 13 April 12 06:25 BST (UK)
Did Andrew Murray have a brother James?

On my family tree he had a sister Elizabeth Elliott Murray who had a son John b1814 by a Joseph Lightbody.  This John called himself John Murray and went off to America.  Lots of people descend down from this chap.

Georgia
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: Glenstrae McGregor on Tuesday 15 January 13 03:18 GMT (UK)
Hello all

This may also be a part of this whole discovery, well hopefully.

John Roberts Scott, apparently born Hamilton, lanarkshire, Scotland 1796 to John Scot & Agnes Turner.  Married Helen Forrest

John was said to be the first cousin to the Duke of Buccluech
He had a farm on the banks of the river Clyde in Hamilton, Scotland.

John was invited by Govonor Sir James Stirling, to come to the new Colony of Western Australia, with his wife Helen, Daniel McGregor(1815-1898), a son of Helen's from a previous marraige to Alexander McGregor apparently in 1814. who died apparently in 1817.
And two sons to Helen, John William & Robert Scott,

They became a very notable Pioneering family in W.A.

John had a cousin noted to be living in the Eastern states of Australia, once thought to Be William Henry Scott, only one record of this has been found to that name, but more to the Name of William Hugh Scott, with a brother hugh.   both entries list them William Henry or Hugh to be the Nephew of Sir Walter Scott, the 1st Bart, the other as the Great Novelist, meaning it is the writer not another Sir Walter..  This also should mean that, they must Descend from a Male sibling of Sir walter to carry the Scott Surname.   Unfortunatley, most of Sir Walters Siblings died quiet young.

I am looking for any Descendants of this family from the Port Phillip, Muarry, Victoria area of Australia, Squatter farmers.   one property is mentioned as Burrowye and tied in with the Ned Kelly BushRanger story. ""First taken up between 1837 and 1840 by the overlander from New South Wales, William Hugh Scott (14,000 acres)""

 
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-VIC-HIGH-COUNTRY/2001-12/1007816757
Burrowye joining Thologolong up the river was taken up in 1838 by Donald McLeod, who in '45 transferred to William and Hugh Scott, nephews of the great novelist Sir Walter Scott.

What is interesting is the MacGregor connection but will go into that some other time...

Remember Sir walter's book "Rob Roy"

Please help if you know anything about this family to the east and I hope it opens some doors for you as well..

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: judb on Tuesday 15 January 13 06:32 GMT (UK)
TROVE has the Government Gazette of "Claims to Leases of Crown Land"  1848, including Burrowye to William Hugh SCOTT.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4764315

The application for land, Burrowye, William H SCOTT, 1848
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4763547   and
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/91459433

Sale of Burrowye 1862
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5718009

etc, etc

None of this furthers finding the SCOTT connections though  ::)

Judith
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: sandralost on Friday 25 January 13 05:02 GMT (UK)
Just attaching my Scott tree. I am from Wollongong and Andrew Findlay and Janet Scott are where my  line began in Australia. They migrated 1883 from Jedburgh, Roxburghshire. First to Rockhampton Qld then to Sydney. My grandmother Marion used to say she was a descendant of Sir Walter Scott (poet) through her mother's mother. Her mother was Margaret Bentley who's mother was Janet Scott who married Andrew Findlay. Interestingly Janet Scotts paternal grandmother was also a Scott (another Janet Scott) as was here relative further down her fathers line (another Janet Scott who married Alexander Scott). Kind Regards Sandra Wollongong-Australia.
Apparently one of the Scott women had a sister who went to America and somehow was related to Jessie James? Oh the stories we weave?? You never know it may all be true?
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: Alexandrina on Saturday 15 July 17 20:09 BST (UK)
Perhaps you are not following this thread any more;

Just to reiterate that Andrew Murray was NOT a nephew of Sir Walter Scott.
That information is totally incorrect. Andrew was, according to Sir Walter Scott
himself ..a talented young man who he employed at Abbotsford and sponsored as a
student Gardener. He recommended Andrew for a horticultural position in New South Wales.

Andrew came from the same area as our Murrays in Scotland however ours arrived in
the 1920's and Andrew arrived early 1800's. He owned a farmhouse nearby to where I
live (at Beecroft in Sydney) . That Farmhouse still partially stands in Murray Farm Road Beecroft
however the M7 Motorway cuts across the old grounds.

A later Andrew Murray also from this family also lived in Beecroft and came over from Scotland
later. I think he may have purchased the old farmhouse in Murray Farm Road as well.  There is a
school in the street named Murray Farm Public school and the children wear the Murray tartan.
Both the street and the school are named for these Murrays. Although Andrew the 1st usually lived
at Parramatta and Sydney city, he also maintained the farm at Beecroft.

Sir Walter Scott's hand written reference for Andrew Murray can be found in the State Library of NSW in Macquarie Street Sydney.

Alexandrina Murray
Murray Clan DNA Research Project
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: majm on Sunday 16 July 17 03:58 BST (UK)
NSW STATE LIBRARY
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=887839

Folder 2: Miscellaneous papers of Andrew Murray, includes copies of letters from his uncle Sir Walter Scott, 1813, letter book,1833-1835, with typed transcripts, legal documents including Andrew Murray’s will and documents about land owned by Murray

SO, Sir Walter Scott wrote to Andrew Murray in 1813, and that was before Andrew married Eleanor ... so the connection is via one of Andrew's parents... 

Cheers,  JM

and

Hi there,

On the NSW State Library's contact details (linked earlier) there's an email address.  I was first introduced to their vast collections back in the late 1950's.  As far as I know it has always been open to the public, regardless of where you live.   I have a readers card, but I don't live in Sydney.  Readers cards are available for NSW residents. 

May I suggest you contact the Library via email, asking for help, I have always found the staff to be friendly, knowledgeable and co-operative.   The holdings are vast, and cover the foundations of all the colonies, including New Zealand (which of course was in the decades before 1841 administered from Sydney NSW). 

I feel that the index seems to show correspondence from Sir Walter Scott to Andrew Murray in 1813. And from this thread we know that Andrew was not yet in Australia (arriving Sept 1817).

 :D Don't overlook the possibility that the Uncle/nephew relationship may be one of Godparent or similar honorary title.
 :D And do consider posting on the RChat Scotland boards (Roxburghshire etc), for help with the 1813 era details.   
 ;) Perhaps Andrew Murray was in the army or navy before coming to NSW, or in civil administration - you don't get to be superindentent of the Carter's Barracks without some experience (many of the early appointments were people appointed by Whitehall and sent out from England specifically ... eg C N P Wilton and wife to head the Female Factory at Parramatta arrived 1827, which seems to be same era that Andrew Murray was at the Carter's Barracks.  ....

As mentioned earlier, I am not at all familiar with Scottish Records, sorry, but thank you Astral14 for adding the details to my speculations  :D. 

Cheers,  JM

Perhaps you took a scan of Sir Walter's reference about Andrew, and/or made a transcript ... I would be interested in reading it.



JM

Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: Alexandrina on Saturday 02 December 17 09:25 GMT (UK)
Yes and this is where the discrepancy arose. That entry is definitely incorrect.
Sir Walter explained in correspondence still extant that Andrew Murray was noticed
by him whilst in employment at Abbotsford I presume, as a Labourer , and that he appeared
to be a talented lad so Sir Walter took him under his wing and I believe gave him the
references necessary to be employed in Sydney at Botannical Gardens - am unsure if
Parramatta as well etc. I have a reader's ticket also so can check and re-post Sir Walter's
correspondence. I have it filed somewhere.
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: Floozy on Sunday 08 July 18 05:52 BST (UK)
I have just read with interest  about this post. I have been speaking  with a distant  cousin  and their is a remote possibility  that i might be directly  related  to the Scott familys. I decend from James Hay and Elizabeth  Scott whos parents I believe  are  William  Scott and Ann Will. A work in progress at this stage. Any feed back appreciated.

Regards Susan
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: sebbett62 on Monday 24 September 18 10:59 BST (UK)
My Great Grandmother was Olive May Scott and it is believed that she is a descendant of Sir Walter. She was born 1894 and died in New Zealand in 1975.
Title: Re: Andrew E Murray:said nephew Of Sir Walter SCOTT
Post by: sandralost on Saturday 15 August 20 08:05 BST (UK)
I have found a advertisement clipping in Australa (Sydney Morning Herald 9/8/1855)
St Boswell's Roxbourghshire
April 5 1855 St Boswell's William Scott esq of Raeburn aged 82yrs died "first cousin to Sir Walter Scott" and father to Robert and William Scott in the colony (Australia).