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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: SvenJJ on Tuesday 14 June 11 17:49 BST (UK)

Title: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Tuesday 14 June 11 17:49 BST (UK)
Hello Everyone,

I recently sent away for a birth certificate for my grandfather's father, about whose family he knew absolutely nothing. The man in question was an Edward Cyril Childs (b.1910)

The confusing part comes when looking at the birth certificate. It reads:

Registered in Plaistow, West Ham

When and where born: 18th Feb 1910, 26 Howards Road (I assume this is the same as the modern day street in East Ham)
No entries for the father (I'm assuming this points toward illegitimacy)

And here comes the confusing part:

Name, Surname and Maiden Name of Mother

Caroline Childs a Domestic Servant of 12 Quarry Street Guildford (Is this her work address or where she was born I'm not sure?)

Signature, Description and Residence of Informant

C. Childs, Mother, St Elizabeth's Home, Green Street, Upton Park (I can find no record of this place, is it a work house?)

Any help to try and unravel this would be appreciated.

Thanks

Jamie
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Tuesday 14 June 11 17:52 BST (UK)
Could it be a mother and baby home? 
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 14 June 11 17:59 BST (UK)
12 Quarry Street would be her usual address, possibly where she worked if she lived in.
   
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: geniecolgan on Tuesday 14 June 11 18:16 BST (UK)
St. Elizabeth's was a maternity home run by the church.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dqi/

Scroll down 'till you see ACC/2201/A2/2/1
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: HeatherLynne on Tuesday 14 June 11 18:17 BST (UK)
See this about 26 Howards Road:  http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cats/23/3990.htm  "26 Howard's Road in 1904 allowed for 12 in-patient beds, which increased to 20 in 1911 with the acquisition of no 28. ".

12 Quarry Street Guildford is visible on Google Maps and is a small three storey terraced house - quite probably her work address.

Here's some information about St Elizabeth's Home  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc2201&cid=-1#-1  "ACC/2201/A2/2/6 report of meeting of diocesan secretaries of London, Southwark, St Albans and Canterbury to consider establishing a special maternity home to replace St Elizabeth's Home, Upton Park, [c Jan 1914];"

So I'd guess the Home was for the later stages of pregnancy, Howard's Road for the birth itself and her normal working address was Quarry Street  :)

Heather
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Valda on Tuesday 14 June 11 18:18 BST (UK)
Hi


Southwark Diocesan Council for Wel-care, 1970-; Rochester Diocesan Association for the Care of Friendless Girls, 1894-1905; Southwark Diocesan Association for the Care of Friendless Girls, 1905-1914; Southwark Diocesan Association for Preventive and Rescue Work, 1914-1932; Southwark Diocesan Council for Moral Welfare, 1932-1970

ACC/2201/A2/2/6 report of meeting of diocesan secretaries of London, Southwark, St Albans and Canterbury to consider establishing a special maternity home to replace St Elizabeth's Home, Upton Park, [c Jan 1914];

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-acc2201&cid=-1#-1

and further information

http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=13396&inst_id=118&nv1=search&nv2=


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Tuesday 14 June 11 18:27 BST (UK)
Wow!

Thank you everyone for your lightning fast responses...

I finally think I understand the mystery of the different addresses. I guess the route to go to try and find out more about the family is to check the Guildford connection.

Thanks Again

Jamie
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Mort29 on Tuesday 14 June 11 18:40 BST (UK)
Or the 1911 census might help establish Caroline's origins?

Did Edward Cyril stay with her do you know?
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Tuesday 14 June 11 18:49 BST (UK)
Well from what I can see, Edward does not appear on the 1911 Census. Also, not knowing anything else about Caroline makes her very hard to pin down.

The only thing that my Grandfather knows is that his background upset his father. Supposedly Caroline and two of Edward's sisters died together when a bomb hit their house during WWII but I cannot find any records matching this either.

Any help any of you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

It's real detective work!

Thanks
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Mort29 on Tuesday 14 June 11 19:01 BST (UK)
well, some assumptions might be made about Caroline - most likely aged twixt 15 and 30, linked to Surrey and/or West Ham...

Theres a candidate in Plaistow, West Ham in the 1901 census born c1879, (K)naresboro', Yorks.

By 1910 she could well have been in Service in Surrey - people were very mobile it seems, and of course the census being only a snapshot on one night in 10 years ....

RG13/Piece: 1575 Folio: 42 Page: 14 @ 131, Whitwell Road .... parents Richard & Annie.

Births Jun 1879 
 
Child  Caroline    Knaresbro'  9a 104



Hmmm, just extended marriage search done earlier back as afar as 1901, and this appeared - most prob the girl in the 1901 census then. (In fact the FREE INDEX shows her as Mrs Walter Thorp, born c1879, Naisboro, Yorks)

Marriages Dec 1902 
 
CHILDS  Caroline    W. Ham 4a 494   
Rayner  Thomas James     W. Ham  4a 494   
Thorp  Walter Frederick     W. Ham  4a 494   
Wright  Edith Frances     W. Ham  4a 494


Turning to Edward Cyril - I had wondered if he took a stepfather's name, as I too can't see him on the 1911 FREE INDEX.

Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Valda on Tuesday 14 June 11 19:36 BST (UK)
Hi

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission indexed civilan deaths in the Second World War

http://www.cwgc.org/


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: bykerlads on Tuesday 14 June 11 22:47 BST (UK)
Valda, did the CWGC index all WW2 civilian deaths or just some of them?( am straying from original post but just wondered if you knew)
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Valda on Wednesday 15 June 11 08:37 BST (UK)
Hi

I think its nearly all but I don't think its all. It can't really be because not all bodies for instance would have been identified (or necessarily even found) e.g. the storm fire of 29th December 1940

'incendiaries dropped on the City of London caused over 1400 fires including six that were classed as conflagrations, one of which covered half a square mile'

If you think it took 16 years to identify the last person killed in the Kings Cross tube fire, and that's with modern science and not in an emergency situation where all resources are stretched past the limit, you can't be sure all bodies found after bombings were ever identified. Because of the numbers killed inquests did not necessarily take place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jan/22/transport.uk

The London boroughs kept a list of the causalties and that would form the basis of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission list for each area. You would expect where families were killed by a bomb however that would be relatively easy to put on the list from local information supplied by neighbours. They would be known occupiers of the building that was bombed and the rest of their family would know.

If Edward had sisters - half or otherwise would he know something of them? Their surname for instance that would allow a search for a possible marriage for Caroline.



Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 15 June 11 13:09 BST (UK)
SvenJJ,
looks as though Edward Cyril Childs survived. Died aged 72 Sept q 1982 North Cleveland 3 2408. Date of birth 18th Feb 1910. His death certificate may give details of wife/children. He may even have left a will detailing family.

John

Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 14:19 BST (UK)
Hello again guys,

Just to clarify, my grandfather (who is still alive) is Edward Cyril's son. His father never spoke of his family which is why I am so interested to find out more. Edward Cyril, although born in London, moved to the North East of England during WWII. He apparently later heard news that his mother and two sisters (we know nothing at all about the sisters and all we know about the mother is the information on the birth certificate).

A little more on Edward Cyril, he served in the Merchant Navy (we believe starting arount 1924 as a cook or steward) and was sunk twice during WWII before being sent home with burn injuries.

But that is literally about all we know...

Thanks

Jamie
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 14:28 BST (UK)
I wonder if this is Walter Thorp and why Edward is "Childs" not Thorp

Deaths Dec 1908 THORP    Walter    43    W. Ham    4a   68
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 14:34 BST (UK)
Hi Fifer,

Well I don't think Walter could ever be Edward's father, he died in Dec 1908 yet Edward was born in February 1910.
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 14:36 BST (UK)
Found this one and he's more likely
1952 Jun quarter
THORP    Walter F    72    Essex S.W.    5a   154
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 14:38 BST (UK)
The only births with the names Thorp/Childs are these all in West Ham

Births Dec 1911
Thorp    Gertrude A M    Childs    W.Ham    4a   356    
Births Sep 1915
THORP    John W    CHILDS    W. Ham    4a   303    
Births Jun 1918
Thorp    Lilian G    Childs    W.Ham    4a   334
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 14:54 BST (UK)
Hi Fifer,

Well I don't think Walter could ever be Edward's father, he died in Dec 1908 yet Edward was born in February 1910.

He couldn't be as he is Edward Cyril CHILDS I was attempting to eliminate a possible husband!  ;D
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:09 BST (UK)
Well, looking at the 1911 Census for a Mr Walter Thorp, the entry for his wife is sadly written down as Mrs Walter Thorp (b. 1979 in Knaresborough, Yorkshire) and they have two kids, Walter and Ada Caroline and it says that they have only ever had two kids, so I think we can eliminate them as possible candidates.
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Mort29 on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:11 BST (UK)
that was the Caroline I mentioned on the previous page .... married 1902
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:21 BST (UK)
Precisely.

Well if we work off the assumption that they are not the correct couple then what is our next best candidate?

I managed to find a Caroline Childs in the 1891 and 1881 Censuses born and raised in Guildford.

Thing is she was born around 1872 (which would make her quite old for the birth of Edward).

I assume she got married so as not to appear in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, possibly here:


Marriages Dec 1897

BARTER    Thomas Edwin        Guildford    2a   170    
CHILDS    Caroline                Guildford    2a   170    
FISHER    Charles Harry        Guildford    2a   170    
HILL            Lizzie                Guildford    2a   170    

But I still can't get my head around the whole thing and I have a gut instinct that this can't be her.
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:23 BST (UK)
Thanks mort29 that's the one I was eliminating by looking at births to the possible marriages.

I believe we are looking for two sisters?
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Mort29 on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:27 BST (UK)
lost me again mate  ;)

I thought she was eliminated yesterday, by marrying in 1902 to a Thorp, a child born 1910 is not likely to be registered Thorp ?


two sisters? Do you mean Edward C's alleged sisters?



PS. For Sven - Caroline Childs must have married Charles Fisher - by eliminating Barter / Hill seen on the 1901.

Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:34 BST (UK)
Yes two sisters of Edward Cyril (providing they don't all have different fathers) or have I missed something??  ::)
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:38 BST (UK)
That is right, at least two sisters and they may very well be from a different partner or two. (In fact this is probably most likely as there is no father on Edward's birth certificate).

Of course there is the fact that Edward Cyril, when he was alive, would never talk of his family as it would always get him upset. Perhaps this tale of the death of his mother and sisters was a story to cover an even more depressing truth?
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:40 BST (UK)
Possible.  :-\
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 15:48 BST (UK)
I am also inclined to eliminate the possibility of the Caroline Childs whom I brought up earlier as I found her married to Charles Harry Fisher in the 1911 census with no sign of Edward.
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: jorose on Wednesday 15 June 11 17:09 BST (UK)
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
 - Edward Cyril Childs' WWII medal card is here.

On the catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/ ) , there is also an entry for him in BT 391 (seaman's pouches) -
BT 391/17/170  . That should at least help you find out more about his career and perhaps you'll get lucky and find some reference to his mother or an old address.

From freebmd, this one pops out as a possibility:
Caroline Childs b. 1890 Woolwich = Carrie on 1901 census, I think she might be on the index in 1911 as "Chilas" in Lambeth - can't work out who she's living with from the free index but it doesn't appear to be with Edward or other family members.
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: fifer1947 on Wednesday 15 June 11 17:14 BST (UK)
Good work jorose.  ;D
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Mort29 on Wednesday 15 June 11 18:08 BST (UK)
That is excellent research - wish I could find my way around that NA site!

So, thats 3 Caroline Childs probably eliminated. Was young Edward C farmed out and somehow went up North as a lad .....
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Wednesday 15 June 11 23:11 BST (UK)
Thank You jorose,

I will ask my grandfather if he has any of his father's medals and I have sent for information on his Seaman's Pouch which I will get back to you on. Also, that Carrie girl is interesting. It seems that in 1911 she was working as a servant in a Fever Hospital in Lambeth ran by the MAB.
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Thursday 11 August 11 03:51 BST (UK)
Sorry to dig this one up again but I recently got a hold of Edward Cyril's Seaman's Pouches. They were sadly rather uneventful and only showed his brief stint in the merchant navy between 1944-1945 rather than the longer period he spent in there earlier. Unfortunately, there were no hints at all as to his family or relatives from the contents of the pouch.

So the mystery is still unsolved. I still haven't been able to get any further forward to find out who his mother's family was so I appeal to those wiser than I once again to try and shed some fresh light on an old mystery.  ;D
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Valda on Thursday 11 August 11 08:36 BST (UK)
Hi


His earlier records in the merchant navy will be held by Southampton Archives

http://www.southampton.gov.uk/s-leisure/artsheritage/history/maritimehistory/centralindex.aspx

Not sure the records will be much help in finding his mother though, but they may give some other clue?


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 11 August 11 09:28 BST (UK)
From freebmd, this one pops out as a possibility:
Caroline Childs b. 1890 Woolwich = Carrie on 1901 census, I think she might be on the index in 1911 as "Chilas" in Lambeth - can't work out who she's living with from the free index but it doesn't appear to be with Edward or other family members.

Caroline Chilas can be eliminated, I think.
She is staying (working) in a hospital in Lambeth.
She is also single and from Kent!
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Valda on Thursday 11 August 11 13:04 BST (UK)
Hi

Not sure I understand why that means she can be eliminated?

The birth was an illegitimate one in 1910 in East Ham at an establishment run by the Southwark Diocesan Association for the Care of Friendless Girls and the mother was a domestic servant (Caroline Childs) who may have been working prior to the birth in Guildford.
Not sure how that eliminates single Carrie/Caroline born Woolwich in 1890 (Woolwich in Kent officially until 1888) if it is her at Lambeth hospital in some unknown capacity in 1911?

Births Sep 1890   
Childs  Caroline     Woolwich  1d 1179

Daughter of Henry (a porter) and Eliza (a widow by 1901). On the 1891 census her older two sisters were domestic servants.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 11 August 11 13:12 BST (UK)
Valda,

Sorry! :-[
I take it back!

Without mentioning too much of what is in the 1911 census (don't want another reprimand from you Mod's!!) her place of birth fits.

Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Thursday 11 August 11 22:35 BST (UK)
Thanks Guys,

I have access to the 1911 census and can see that the Caroline 'Chilas' (They didn't make the stalk of the d long enough  ;D) is indeed consistent with the two from the earlier censuses born in Woolwich which is very nice. I just need to find some more concrete evidence that says whether or not that is the same Caroline.

Jamie
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: bazzaear on Thursday 15 September 11 20:49 BST (UK)
AS a new member I have been trying to find out my mother place of birth I have her birth cert and guess what she was born at 26 Howard rd and stayed in st elizabeths home although her mother lived in Folkestone,as you say very confusing  ,as other members have said it seems st elizabeths was a home for wayward girls etc and howards rd was where they had there babies.My next search is to find out what happened to my grandmother and my mother before I was born

Barry
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Monday 01 January 18 21:23 GMT (UK)
Hi all

Over 6 years on and this still remains a mystery to me and my grandfather...  I just really wish I could tell him more about his dad's family!  :-\

Is anyone aware of any newly available records / techniques that may be able to shed new light on an old mystery?

Thanks
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: jennifer c on Tuesday 02 January 18 10:47 GMT (UK)
The Guildford address was most likely where she worked. They were a couple in their 60s who among their children only had 2 boys, one died in 1902 and the other Arthur Archibald guantlett aged 28 is still unmarried in 1911 and living with a married sister.

Hope this helps.

Jennifer
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: SvenJJ on Saturday 01 September 18 18:02 BST (UK)
Hi all - I was hoping I'd be able to find some support / assistance / ideas on solving a family mystery from you good people.

My grandfather does not know anything about his father's family.  When he was alive, he would never talk about them.  My grandfather has heard stories that they may have been killed in WWII bomb along with two sisters, but I've never been able to confirm that against the civilian deaths records.  This mystery has been rumbling on for some many years (Threads merged for previous discussion on this site), but a brief summary would go like this:

For a good while this was all this information I had, but I recently had my grandfather take a DNA test and it came back with several strong links to individuals with a common tie to a Childs family in Guildford.  Naturally I've done a fair bit of research around this family now and I'm yet to find any irrefutable candidates for Caroline.  This is where I'm hoping you can all help!

My strongest candidate is a Lilian Caroline Childs born 27 April 1979 in Guildford (died 26 January 1945), daughter of Charles Childs (1854-1919) and Caroline Tidy (1859-1943).  First, the positives for her being a good candidate:

And now for the downsides:

In order for this to be her, the scenario feels like Lilian became pregnant, went to London to have the baby, potentially left Edward in a children's home and continued her life without him.  It might explain why Edward Cyril would later not want to talk about his parents and why he might invent a traumatic story so that he wouldn't have to talk about it...

I'm at my wits end.  Does anyone have any hints, tips, ideas, clues or local insights that they can share on this?  I'd love to be able to pin this down to finally tell my granddad what his father never could.  I just can't imagine not knowing who half of your family are!

Apologies for the long brain dump and thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

Jamie
Title: Re: Help: CHILDS family mystery in Guildford
Post by: Annette7 on Saturday 01 September 18 19:18 BST (UK)
Lilian Caroline was also a teacher in 1901 - I wonder whether the mother of the child was in fact the younger daughter Olive (18 in 1911) who gave the name Caroline (her mothers or sister's second name) rather than her own in an effort to not be traced at a later date or a perhaps it was a family cover-up.   It sounds like someone in this family is a prime candidate.   

Edward may already have been in the Merchant Navy by 1939 and overseas when the register taken but he should be somewhere in 1911.   If in a childrens home perhaps under initials?

Annette