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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Forfarian on Monday 27 June 11 22:51 BST (UK)
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James Guthrie of Pitforthie married Janet Lyon, daughter of Lyon of Easter Ogil. They had 10 children: William, 1620; Andrew, 1622; Barbara, 1625; Nicolas, 1626; David, 1627; Robert, 1629; Margaret, 1630; Alexander, 1632; John, 1633; Jean, 1636. William, Robert, Alexander and John all became ministers, and William in particular distinguished himself. He made over the estate to a younger brother in order to concentrate on his ministry, but the brother died and in 1665 William returned to Pitforthie to sort out his affairs. While there he was taken ill and died in the manse of Brechin, where his sister Margaret's husband Laurence Skinner was minister.
James Guthrie of Pitforthie died in 1650. A David Guthrie of Pitforthie died in 1695. I will have a look at the confirmations of their estates, but neither actually left a will so the information about their family connections is likely to be a bit sparse.
I have reams and reams of information about the five ministers (four brothers and one brother-in-law) and their descendants, but I am more interested in the rest of the family.
What I would like to know is
1. Was the David Guthrie of Pitforthie who died in 1690 the one who was born in 1627, and if not who was his father?
2. Was David Guthrie, farmer at Cookston and Balbirnie Mill between about 1680 and 1710, related to the Guthries of Pitforthie?
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My name is Ann Guthrie. I am a co-administrator of the Guthrie DNA Project (Family Tree DNA Surname Projects). Our project has identified several distinct Guthrie lineages here in America. One of those, referred to as the 'Maryland/Pennsylvania Group', is still searching for some genetic proof to identify our specific Guthrie ancestors in Scotland and Ireland. It happens to be my family group, too.
We have recently obtained a genetic match between our group's participants and a descendant of John Guthrie (1725IRL-1797PA). According to the documentation currently available about John Guthrie, he is supposed to be a descendant of one of Rev. William Guthrie's brothers. The reference is somewhat vague and does not indicate the brother's name. It does state that one or more of the brothers had to flee Scotland and settled in or near Londonderry, Ireland.
You stated that you had detailed data about the family of James Guthrie & Janet Lyon and their known descendants. Would you be willing to share that information with me or provide some of your sources? It would help us to verify the data we do have and compare it to the genetically-matched branches of our American family tree.
Also, are you familiar with any known descendants of James Guthrie & Janet Lyon (must be male Guthries) who might be interested in participating in our DNA project? We are willing to fund the cost of the test.
Thank you.
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We have recently obtained a genetic match between our group's participants and a descendant of John Guthrie (1725IRL-1797PA). According to the documentation currently available about John Guthrie, he is supposed to be a descendant of one of Rev. William Guthrie's brothers.
Hmmm.
Rev William Guthrie (1620-1665) was one of six sons of James Guthrie and Janet Lyon. However all the available online biographies say that he was one of five sons, so I assume that one of them must have died in infancy. This is borne out by the Registers of Sasines, which mention William, David (1627-?), Robert (1629-?), Alexander (1632-1663) and John (1633-1669), but not Andrew (b 1622) . Therefore I conclude that Andrew, the second son, died young.
William had two sons, both of whom predeceased him. I have no information about any marriage or sons of Robert. Alexander had one son that I know of, Alexander, who survived his father and was served heir to him in 1667. John married Margaret Haldane but I have no information about any sons. I'll discuss David separately.
William, Robert, Alexander and John all died in Scotland as far as I know. I have not come across any suggestion that any of them fled to Ireland.
The biographies say that William, the eldest son, wished to concentrate on his ministry, so he made the estate of Pitforthie over to a younger brother. However this brother died, and William had to return to Pitforthie to deal with the inheritance. It was during this visit that he died at his sister's home in Brechin. So the inference is that David (b 1627) died about 1665. However I have yet to see any documentary evidence either for the transfer of the estate from William to a brother, or the death of the brother and subsequent transfer of the estate back to William.
An added complication is that a David Guthrie of Pitforthie died in 1695. His wife was Margaret Livingston, and they had at least seven sons: Patrick, William, Francis, Robert, James, John and Laurence. Only four are recorded in the parish register, the eldest of those being baptised in 1656. Were it not for the story of the brother to whom William made over the estate having died in about 1665, the obvious inference would have been that this David was the son of James, born 1627.
So either the tale of the brother who died is incorrect, or William made the estate over to one of his minister brothers. It can't have been John, because he outlived William. It's unlikely to have been Robert, who was delicate of health and died before he could be appointed to a charge; and if it was Alexander, who died in 1663, why did William delay going to sort out the inheritance until 1665? And in any case, if William's reason for divesting himself of his worldly possessions, why would he make them over to a brother who was also a minister?
I have notes on several sasines relating to this Guthrie family, but the notes do not shed much light on the matter. If I could decipher them, the original documents may contain some useful details.
So for the present the Guthries of Pitforthie are a bit of a puzzle.
Also, there was a very much later Guthrie of Pitforthie, James Guthrie (1835-1920) who was a son of the Reverend Thomas Guthrie and great-great-great-grandson of David Guthrie and Janet Stewart, whom I mentioned in my first post. I do not know yet whether he actually owned Pitforthie, or was the tenant, and if so, who did own it. I believe that some of the Rev Thomas' descendants are already participating in the DNA project, and I would be ecstatic if the DNA provided strong evidence for this family being related to the John Guthrie (1725-1797) whom you mention above, because it would link my family to the original Guthries of Pitforthie.
Also, are you familiar with any known descendants of James Guthrie & Janet Lyon (must be male Guthries) who might be interested in participating in our DNA project? We are willing to fund the cost of the test.
No. I do not know of any living descendants. I wish I did! Unfortunately I am not a Guthrie; it was my great-great-great-great-great-grandmother who was a Guthrie. She was a granddaughter of the above David Guthrie and Janet Stewart.
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Thanks for the quick reply. The information you've provided gives me a starting point to research the Pitforthie line of Guthries. I know of no one currently in the project who has provided an ancestral tree claiming Rev Thomas Guthrie as an ancestor. There are several unmatched individuals who have not provided us with their family history. It is also possible that someone has done DNA testing, but not officially joined our project. If that is the case, we wouldn't have details for comparison. However, now that we know Rev Thomas Guthrie's line is a possible match, we can start recruiting eligible candidates to participate. Maybe we'll get lucky and find one.
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I omitted to mention earlier that James Guthrie (son of David Guthrie of Pitforthie) and Margaret Skinner (a granddaughter of James Guthrie of Pitforthie through her mother Margaret Guthrie) had eight sons and two daughters between about 1685 and 1705.
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I seem to be related to Rev William Guthrie through one of his daughters, Agnes Guthrie, through the Millar line. I have accumulated the following information:
Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition has:
"Matthew Miller esq of Glenlee in the stuartry of Kircudbright m. Agnes daughter of the Rev William Guthrie Minister of Fenwick and was s by his eldest son, John Miller esq of Glenlee who m. Grizel...Cathcart"
Agnes Millar nee Guthrie died Aft 1697 at Glasgow, Lanarkshire, and Matthew Millar died abt Jan 1702 at Glenlee, Kirkcudbrightshire.
From the preface to his book "The Christian's Great Interest", Rev William Guthrie was born the eldest son of the laird of Pitforthly in Angus. He was also apparently a "cousin" of the Rev James Guthrie, the Martyr. Whilst preaching at Galston he was called to Fenwick. He helped decide where the church should be erected, preached a within its unfinished walls and was ordained 7 Nov 1644.
In August 1644 or 1645 he married Agnes Campbell, a distant relative of the Earl of Loudon, "of the noble family of Loudon", daughter of David Campbell of Skeldon House in the parish of Dalrymple, Ayrshire.
After 8 to 10 days' illness he died in the house of his brother-in-law Mr Lewis Skinner, minister at Brechin, upon Wednesday the 10th of Oct 1665, afternoon, in the 45th years of his age, and was buried in the church of Brechin, under Pitforthy's desk.
However his father's name is as yet a mystery to me. Some seem to connect him to John Guthrie (est 1577-1649) m. c.1599 to Nichola(s) Wood (est 1577–1645). If so his mother seems quite old for a birth in 1620.
So I'd be interested where you located his fathers name as James, and his mothers name as Janet.
According to the preface to his book, William Guthrie was born in 1620 son of the laird in Pitforthy, near Brechin, Forfarshire. I note from The Dictionary of National Biography and also http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/ that his mother was of the house of Easter Ogle, parish of Tannadice, Forfarshire.
"William remained in Fenwick for a few months longer before ill health and the death of the brother, to whom he had foregone his inheritance, took him back to Pitforthy. There he died on the 10th October 1665 aged 45" [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Guthrie,_William_%281620-1665%29_%28DNB00%29], at the home of his brother-in-law at Brechin, Angus. [Preface to The Christian’s Great Interest 1668]
"He was interred in Brechin cathedral. In 1854 a memorial to Guthrie was erected in Fenwick churchyard. In 2005 a plaque was erected in Brechin Cathedral to Guthrie by the Scottish Covenanter Memorials Association."[http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/].
The monument says:
"In Memory of The Rev William Guthrie First Minister of this Parish and author of the Christians Great Interest Born 1620 Ordained 1644 Ejected by prelatic persecution 1664 Worn out by labours and sufferings he died 1665 and was interred in the church of Brechen His active and self-denied ministry through the divine blessing produced a deep and lasting impression. This stone is erected 1854 as a token of gratitude by the Christian Public"
"Two daughters of a family of six children survived him, one of whom became the wife of the Rev. Patrick Warner, of Irvine, and mother of Margaret Warner, who was afterwards married to the Rev. Robert Wodrow, of Eastwood, the faithful chronicler of the sufferings of the Church of Scotland."[http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/]
I have his daughters as Agnes Guthrie (1656 – 1697) and Mary Guthrie (1665 – )
What were the names of his two sons that predeceased him?
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Thank you for getting in touch.
his father's name is as yet a mystery to me. Some seem to connect him to John Guthrie (est 1577-1649) m. c.1599 to Nichola(s) Wood (est 1577–1645). If so his mother seems quite old for a birth in 1620.
So I'd be interested where you located his fathers name as James, and his mothers name as Janet.
James G of Pitforthie and Janet Lyon had ten of a family, of whom nine are recorded in the Brechin parish register, and the baptism records name the father as 'James Guthrie of Pitforthie'. The missing baptism is that of William, the eldest.
I have the listings from 'Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae' which briefly describe the lives of William and of two of his three minister brothers and of his brother-in-law Laurence Skinner. The listing of William states that he was "born 1620, eldest son of James Guthrie of Pitforthie,Forfarshire, by a daughter of Lyon of Easter-Ogle, in Tanadice". The listing of his brother Alexander states: "Minister at Stracathro 1655. Youngest son of James Guthrie of Pitforthie, and brother of William Guthrie, Minister of Fenwick and John Guthrie, Minister of Tarbolton." That of Laurence Skinner says that he "mar Margaret, dau of James Guthrie of Pitforthie".
What were the names of his two sons that predeceased him?
John and William. The daughters who predeceased him were Margaret and Elizabeth.
The career of John Guthrie, husband of Nicolas Wood, precludes the possibility that he was the Laird of Pitforthy. He was variously in Edinburgh and the Moray in the 1620s when the family of James Guthrie of Pitforthie were being born and baptised in Brechin. However one of Pitforthie's daughters was named Nicolas, so there is an intriguing possibility of a link.
Once you have posted two more messages to the forum, we will be able to use the Personal Message system to exchange e-mail addresses. I have too much information to post the whole lot here, and some of it is copyright and publishing it here would breach that. However see
http://www.newble.co.uk/guthriew/biography.html
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Puritans/William-Guthrie/
http://www.covenanter.org.uk/WilliamGuthrie/
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=11969
http://timmybrister.com/2008/10/12/who-is-william-guthrie/
All of which were available to view in June 2011, when I last looked at William Guthrie in detail.
There is also an article by Matthew Vogan in the Free Church Witness, March 2003, which I must have seen online, but I have apparently failed to save the URL.
Nothing I have seen so far helps with my wishful thinking that my ancestor David Guthrie, husband of Janet Stewart, was a grandson of James G and Janet Lyon.
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Thank you
Ahh I should have thought to check Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae :) that's very helpful
I will keep an eye out for David Guthrie. I have 4 in my tree but none matching sadly.
Meantime this is my descent as I know it:
James Guthrie of Pitforthie m. Janet Lyons of Easter Ogil
William Guthrie Rev (1620 Brechin-1665 Fenwick) m. Aug 1645 Agnes Campbell (c.1625-)
Agnes Guthrie (1656 Kilmarnock-1697 Glasgow) m.1671 Kilmarnock to Matthew Millar of Glenlee (1655 Kilmarnock-1702 Glenlee)
William Miller (1676 Shotts-1753 Glasgow) m. bef.1709 Janet Hamilton ( -1735 of Glenlee)
James Miller (1710-) m.1735 Sorn to Elizabeth Smith (1714 Riccarton- )
Hugh Miller (1741Newton-on-Air-1814 Mauchlin) m.1771 Susanna Duncan (1753 Auchinleck-1830 Mauchlin)
James Millar (1772 Auchmillan-1860 Catrine) m.c.1797 Marrion Brown (1776 Mauchlin-1861 Irvine)
James Millar (1802 Catrine-1854 Kilmarnock) m.1826 Margaret Alexander Barclay (1807 Riccarton-1874 Kilmarnock)
James Barclay Millar (1827 Stewarton-1908 Parkes) m. Susan Reid (1834 Irvine-1870 Moree) [both to Australia 1850s]
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Hmmmm.
I wonder if Glenlee House in Coatbridge is at all connected with your Glenlee? I have Alexander Ronald Miller (1841-1901) whose family were there living in 1901. However his forebears don't match yours:
Parents James Miller (1806-1887) and Catherine Ronald
Grandparents John Miller (1774-?) and Mary Allan
Great-grandfather James Miller (1746-1819)
Great-great-grandparents James Miller (1707-1778) and Margaret Miller née Miller
Great-great-great-grandparents James Miller (1670-1743) and Mary Waddell (my connection)
Great-great-great-grandfather William Miller
Great-great-great-great-great-grandfather James Miller of Glenmill, Hollinglen and South Myvot (parish of New Monkland)
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No its coincidental, none of those amongst my Millars
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Hello! I am trying to help my wife discover more about her roots back to Scotland....through a David Guthrie of Kair, born in 1685 and Margaret Scott. Most records have this David as a son of David Guthrie, born about 1653, and Margaret Arbuthnot, but I am finding records, from memoirs of a Gideon Guthrie, that say his brother, David, left no living male issue, hence the first David I mentioned is theoretically without a parent. :(
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When you say, 'most records', what records do you mean?
I would have thought that a brother's contemporary memoirs would be more accurate than a later reference, but it depends on what you are looking at.
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By "most records" I was referring to what shows up in numerous genealogy trees...but each of those could have been started by one inaccurate entry...and then just passed along.
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By "most records" I was referring to what shows up in numerous genealogy trees...but each of those could have been started by one inaccurate entry...and then just passed along.
Oh, yes, indeed they could. Online trees can be useful as finding aids, but they cannot be relied on for accuracy.
I have to admit that I have not studied the original records of Gideon Guthrie and his connections, so I cannot really answer your questions. The only material I have on him is the item in Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae, which says that he was born in 1663; that his father was Harry Guthrie of Halkerton; that his mother was Margaret Sibbald, daughter of David Sibbald of Kair and his wife Jean, daughter of Sir David Auchmouty; that he married in 1703 Anne Melvin or Melville, daughter of Andrew Melvill or Melvin, minister of Morham; that he had four of a family; and that he died in 1732. The article cites Guthrie's own monograph and Black's History of Brechin. It also chronicles his ecclesiastical career.
Actually, as Gideon is usually described as an Episcopalian minister, I was a little surprised to see that he features in Fasti. I would have expected to look for him in Bertie's book on the episcopalian clergy rather than in Fasti.
There are two records of the marriage of a Gideon Guthrie to an Elspet Black or Blake, one in St Vigeans on 11 August and one in Farnell on 28 August 1683. Whether this is the same person, or another person of the same name, I do not know, but if Hew Scott did not include Elspet B in his biography in Fasti, he either failed to find this marriage, or knew that it was a different person. In any case, you would have thought that if Gideon himself gave family information in his memoir, he could hardly fail to mention a first wife, surely?
This Gideon is presumably the one whose son John was baptised in Monifieth in 1684.
Scotland's People has one baptism of a Gideon Guthrie, in Edinburgh in 1742, son of Hary Guthrie and Rachel Milln. As one of Gideon Guthrie's four children was Harry Guthrie, writer in Edinburgh, there is a high probability this this Gideon is a grandson of Gideon (1663-1732).
Gideon left no will, but there are several documents in the National Archives of Scotland referring to Gideon Guthrie. Inconveniently, some of these are dated 1661 and 1662, which suggests that there might have been yet another Gideon Guthrie. In particular, there is one document described as "Signature of the lands of Halkertoun etc granted to Gideon Guthrie, 1 Jul 1662". As this is a year before Gideon Guthrie (1663-1732) was born, either Fasti has his date of birth wrong, or (in my view more likely) there was another Gideon Guthrie.
One of the documents, in the Guthrie of Guthrie papers, includes a "Testificate of Gideon Guthrie's attendance at the College of Edinburgh, 1674". If this is Gideon (1663-1732) he must have attended the university at the tender age of 10 or 11. Could it be, however, that this is the Gideon who married Elspet B in 1683?
So many questions, so few answers!
So we have records of at least three, and probably four, different Gideon Guthries.
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PS There is just one Sasine between 1620 and 1700 referring to a Gideon Guthrie not of Halkerton. This is to Gideon G, portioer of Milntoune of Conon, so of John G, portioner thereof. The date of this one is between 1679 and 1684, and Conon is in the parish of St Vigeans, so it is tempting to deduce that this is the Gideon who married Elspet in 1683. In which case there are definitely at least four different Gideon Guthries.
There are quite a lot of sasines referring to Gideon Guthrie of Halkerton, but these date from between 1620 and 1655, and refer to his wife as Agnes Jonken. So I think this has to be the grandfather of Gideon (1663-1732) and probably the one mentioned in 1661 and 1662. There are also sasines referring to John G of Milntown of Conon as son of Henry Guthrie of Halkerton. I am far too tired to try to unravel them all tonight!
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Thank you so very much for all of the work and info!
What I'm finding difficult now is that I have a David Guthrie, born about 1685, married a Margaret Scott in 1713, but for whom I have no parentage. I had been going off of numerous online trees that asserted his dad was David Guthrie, brother of the "main" Gideon in this discussion, married to Margaret Arbuthnot. But according to Gideon's memoirs, his brother David left no male descendants.
So my wife, Deborah Darlene Guthrie James, and I are back to David & Margaret Scott Guthrie. I've been using the Scotland's People site quite a bit today, but haven't cracked the "code" of ancestry as yet.
Thank you again for your time and effort in assisting me at this juncture!
Steven James
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Sorry, I was almost falling asleep at the keyboard last night.
There is a David Guthrie, son of John Guthrie of Halkerton, portioner of Miltoune of Conon, referred to in two of the sasines, between 1668 and 1672, that also refer to Gideon Guthrie, son of the same John Guthrie.
Unfortunately I don't have the indexes to the Register of Sasines from 1700-1780. (For some reason the National Archives never published this book of indexes, so they can only be consulted in General Register House. I did ask some years ago what they would charge for putting the entire book on a CD and they said £100 and the idea got sort of sidelined!)
Apart from the various online trees that are not to be trusted, do you have any evidence for David's date of birth and for him being related to a Gideon Guthrie?
The IGI says that David Guthrie and Margaret Scott were married in Marykirk, Kincardineshire in 1713, and lists four children: David, 1715; James, 1717; Isobell, 1720; Janet, 1722. You should be able to view the originals of all these events at Scotland's People. They may or may not record the names of any witnesses, who can provide clues to family connections.
I've been trying to unravel the relationships of the Guthries of Halkerton, who include at least two of those Gideon Guthries.
I have made a spreadsheet to show which of all these people are mentioned in which of the sasines, and the approximate dates. If anyone would like a copy of this, please send me a PM with your e-mail address. I would welcome a few other pairs of eyes to examine this.
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David and Margaret Scott (sometimes listed as Isobel or Isabel) continued to have children, one being Robert, born in 1735, in Garvock, Kincardine. That is the line through which my wife connects. This is documented through Scotland's People's OPR information.
So my challenge now is to discover who this David's parents were, having ruled out what has been widely distributed on many sites as his father being David Guthrie, mother being Margaret Arbuthnot. (Ruled out by the memoirs of Gideon Guthrie, David Guthrie's brother, which state that he died without male descendant - his eldest daughter, Margaret, inheriting the estate, and marrying William Stuart.)
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So my challenge now is to discover who this David's parents were, having ruled out what has been widely distributed on many sites as his father being David Guthrie, mother being Margaret Arbuthnot. (Ruled out by the memoirs of Gideon Guthrie, David Guthrie's brother, which state that he died without male descendant - his eldest daughter, Margaret, inheriting the estate, and marrying William Stuart.)
Fasti says that Henry Guthrie was served heir in 1698 to his father Rev David Guthrie of Glenmuick (I see that some sites call it Blenmuick but that is a misreading) so presumably this Henry must have died before Gideon wrote his memoirs. Margaret Guthrie married William Stuart of Inchbreck, possibly in 1704. There were another three daughters.
I see on another web site that Harry Guthrie, writer in Edinburgh, matriculated arms in 1775 as the chief of the Guthries of Halkerton, and that the male line died with him. His elder brother William had died in 1770. This is interesting because it implies that the Gideon Guthrie born in Edinburgh in 1742, and any brothers he might have had, died before his or their father. Does it also mean that the male line of Harry's great-great-uncle John Guthrie of Halkerton, portioner of Milton of Conon, had also died out?
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Very good question!
Hopefully I can push through this wall of who David Guthrie (b. 1685; m. Margaret Scott) before we get to Scotland next month!
It would be great to be able to stand on some of Debbie's ancestors' land before they migrated to the USA (Pennsylvania in her case).
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It would be great to be able to stand on some of Debbie's ancestors' land before they migrated to the USA (Pennsylvania in her case).
If you look at the baptisms of the children of David G and Margaret Scott, they may tell you where they were born, so you will know ehere to go and stand.
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Duh. Great idea. :)
I didn't think of that. :)
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When you find out, let me know and I will point you at suitable maps.
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Reverand Patrick Warner Born 1661 (son of John Warner Born 1628 of Irvine) Married 1691 Fenwick, to Mary Guthrie Born 1665 Fenwick (Daughter of Reverand William Guthrie Born 1639 of Fenwick) They had the following children :
1. William Warner c 15 Jan 1692- Abt1793 Married 8 Sep 1709 at Stevenston, Ayrshire to Janet
Hamilton (sometimes listed as Hamiltone/ Hamiltoune) Born 1694 (Daughter of Alexander
Hamilton of Ardeer.
Children:
A. Rebecka Warner c 11 Feb 1711 Stevenston, Ayrshire
B. Patrick Warner c 15 June 1712 Stevenston, Ayrshire
c. John Warner c 3 Sep 1713 Stevenston, Ayrshire
d. Rebeccah Warner c 4 May 1715 Stevenston, Ayrshire
e. William Warner c 1716 Stevenston, Ayrshire.
2. Margaret Warner Born 1694 Ardeer Died 1759 (1) Married 14 Feb 1706 Ayrshire
Sp Reverand Ebenezer Vetch/Veitch Born 1690 Ardeer
(2) Married 1708 Ayrshire
Sp Reverand Robert Woodrow Born 1690 Ardeer
3. Patrick Warner Born 1696 of Irvine Died Young
4. Son Warner Born 1698 Ardeer Died Young
5. Daughter Warner Born 1700 Ardeer Died Young
6. Daughter Warner Born 1700 Ardeer Died Young.
B Patrick Warner 1712-1793 (Son of William Warner + Janet Hamilton Married 1 May 1775 Ayrshire
Sp Helen (Ellen) Russell Born 1716 Stevenston, Ayrshire
Children :
1. John Warner Born 24 Sep 1776 c 27 Sep 1776 Stevenston, Ayrshire
2. William Warner Born 24 Sep 1776 c 27 Sep 1776 Stevenston, Ayrshire
3. Janet Warner Born 27 Feb 1778 c 6 Mar 1778 Stevenston, Ayrshire
4. Patrick Warner Born 17 Sep 1779 Stevenston, Ayrshire
5. William John Warner (Female) Born 8 July 1781 c 13 July 1781 Stevenston, Ayrshire
6. Agnes Warner Born 7 May 1785 Stevenston, Ayrshire
7. Helen Warner Born 31 Oct 1785 C 11 Nov 1785 Stevenston, Ayrshire
8. John Warner Born 10 Dec 1788 Stevenston, Ayrshire.
5 William John Warner Married Alexander William Miller/Millar Born 18 Mar 1774 Kilwinning
Ayrshire, his name was listed as William Alexander Miller (Son of William Miller of Monk Castle
Ayrshire + Agnes Cunninghame)
Children
1. Helen Warner Millar Born 6 May 1805 Edinburgh
2. Jean Nimmo Millar Born 9 June 1807 c 9 July 1807 Kilwinning
3. Janet Miller Born 17 Nov 1809 c 19 Dec 1809 Kilwinning
4. Catherine Ann Miller c 21 Aug 1811 Kilwinning
5. Rebecca Henreeta Miller Born 28 July 1813 Kilwinning
6. Alexander Cunninghame Miller c 8 July 1815 Kilwinning
7. Patrick Miller Born 25 July 1819 Kilwinning
Alexander and his family Left Scotland and came to New South Wales, Australia.
6. Alexander Cunninghame Miller Married 2 women and had numerous children, if you would like more on this family please contact me at margaretsilva@bigpond.com
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Thank you, haselbury. I did have some of that, but right now I am over my ears with other stuff and I don't have time to study it properly.
However the first few dates on your list don't match mine. I have William Guthrie born 1620, not 1639, and Mary born 1655 not 1665 and married 1681 not 1691. I will have to review my sources for these, and get back to you eventually.
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Finally getting back to work on this.
There is no baptism on record in the Church of Scotland parish registers of William Guthrie, son of James Guthrie of Pitforthie, in either 1620 or 1639. Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae says he was born in 1620 and graduated MA in 1638.
There is no record in the OPRs of his marriage to Agnes Campbell, but his eldest child, Margaret, was baptised in April 1648. If he had been born in 1639, he must have been ordained as minister, married and his first child conceived by 1647, when he was only 7 or 8 years old. I have attached the extracts of the baptism of his eldest daughter Margaret in 1648 and of his daughter Mary in 1655 from the OPR of the parish of Fenwick. The latter makes it quite clear that it refers to the minister of the parish.
I have no independent evidence for the date of marriage of his daughter Mary to Patrick Warner, which I must have taken from Fasti or one of the many articles written about William Guthrie.