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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: joboy on Tuesday 28 June 11 03:59 BST (UK)
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In early 1899 a Mrs.Rosalinda (Rosa) Fox was hacked to death with an axe at
Dalkeith near Perth Western Australia.
After a lengthy and convoluted trial her husband John Fox was found guilty
of her murder.
Rosa's maiden name was Myers (fomerly Meiers) and her father was Herman
Heinrich Meier who left England with his family in 1876 on the vessel
'Hastngs'.
I know nothing of John Fox's background other than fragmented bits from the
the trial.
It seems that he had a brother 'Alexander' and maybe 'Joseph' and their
father (name unknown) was a cripple and that he had drowned and his body
never recovered.and that there was a younger brother (name unknown) of John
and Alexander who died of gunshot wounds by accident.
Any suggestions as to how I can trace John Fox's background would be
appreciated together with any information regarding his sentence for his
wife's murder.
Joe
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/tag?allTags=1&name=Rosalinda%20Fox
There are numerous articles in Trove concering the murder.
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/tag?allTags=1&name=Rosalinda%20Fox
There are numerous articles in Trove concering the murder.
Thanks ....... I have studied all the detail in 'Trove' but non of them give background relating to the 'Fox' family which is what I really seek.
I am distantly related to the victim and have her background in England.
Joe
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In early 1899 a Mrs.Rosalinda (Rosa) Fox was hacked to death with an axe at
Dalkeith near Perth Western Australia.
After a lengthy and convoluted trial her husband John Fox was found guilty of her murder .......
Sorry, BUT from trove I read John Alexander Fox was found NOT guilty and discharged ....
"the eldest daughter swore positively that her mother came to the gate and bade them goodbye when she and her father and sister went to Perth on the morning of the murder"
"a great crowd has assembled outside of the court and cheered the acquitted man lustily"
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/32197502 20 April 1899 Kalgoorlie Western Argus
Was there a second trial ?
Cheers, JM
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Some info on employment history, along with detailed info about both Mr and Mrs Fox, their children, and also relatives of both Mr and Mrs Fox.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3202971 8 February 1899 The West Australian
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59152403 27 April 1941 Sunday Times
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59152761 4 May 1941 Sunday Times
"...... So was Chief Justice Sir Onslow .... He as much as instructed the jury in their verdict. They took two minutes to declare John Fox not guilty."
Cheers, JM
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From WA BDM online index http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx (order option available at this link)
Marriage
John FOX and Rose MARIES marriage registered at Perth, 1888, #158
Births
Esther Mary FOX, with parents as John FOX and Rose MAYERS, registered Perth 1890, #1229
Rosalinda Violet FOX, with parents as John FOX and Rose MYERS, registered Perth, 1889, #356
Death
Rosalinda FOX, aged 32, born London, parents as Herman Henrick and Eliza Ann Pantland, registered in 1899, # 107
This link shows the information to expect on BDM certificates http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
EDIT TO ADD
Possible (W.A.) marriages for the two children ...
Esther M FOX and William C FREEMAN registered Perth 1920, ref 116
Rosalinda Violet FOX and Samuel Slater BENTLEY registered Boulder, 1905 ref 83
Cheers, JM
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:'(
Rosalinda was married 5 April 1905, and widowed on 19 April 1905
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/25517161 21 June 1905 The West Australian
Her husband of two weeks was killed in an underground mining accident.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/33020080 Inquest and details 2 May 1905 Kalgoorlie Western Argus
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/25637576 19 April 1906 The West Australian In Memorium notices inserted by Violet Bentley and Mary Fox
Sam was only 26. Violet was only 16.
JM
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WA Marriage
Rosa L V BENTLEY and Frederick PERKINS registered at Plantagenet in 1914 #62
WA Death
Rosalinda V PERKINS, registered at Perth, in 1938 # 2157
Cheers, JM
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I find the newspaper reports to be most confusing ...... or maybe it's my adled old brain that cant see the wood from the trees.
.......................................................................................
From 'The West Australian' Wed March 1 1899
At 8.40 p.m. the jury retired. Returning at 9.30 p.m., they gave the following ver- dict :-" That the deceased Rosa Fox came to her death by a blow from an axe, de- livered by her husband, John Alexander Fox, and that the said John Alexander Fox was guilty of murder."
The Coroner said he fully concurred in the verdict. The jury were then dis- charged.
...............................................................................
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3224446?searchTerm=fox john alexander&searchLimits=l-title=The+West+Australian+%28Perth%2C...%7Ctitleid%3A30
this article from 1899 confirms he was acquitted
Joby you are looking at the inguest into the death and that jury found he had a case to answer and he was to stand trial for her murder. but with the trial fo murder he was acquitted
when Rosa PERKINS dies her furneral death notice does not mention her father. So one might assume he has passed by then (1938) or not????
Jenn
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3203166
1 March 1899
The West Australian
The headline from that article reads
DALKEITH TRAGEDY. CONCLUSION OF THE INQUEST FOX COMMITTED FOR TRIAL.
You have read the newspaper article reporting on the inquest and its outcome (that the accused was committed for trial) . That inquest was conducted before a judge and jury.
At that subsequent trial he was acquitted (Thanks Jenn for finding that). There's also good coverage in those two articles from 1941
Cheers, JM
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Thank you Jenn and JM ........... can now see wood from trees.
Was anyone subsequently convicted of the murder? and more particularly how can I get more detail of thr Fox background?
Joe
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:)
More particulars about his background .... The marriage cert would be a good starting point, and there's good information about him in the newspaper account that I linked earlier re his employment history in WA, and details of both families. He was obviously alive in 1905 as he is named in the wedding announcement for Violet.
Do you know when he died?
OOps, edit to add
;) re any other person convicted .... I haven't gone through trove looking at that. Perhaps if you wrote to the Supreme Court of WA, they may have further archival material.
Cheers, JM
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Esther Mary Freeman was widowed in August 1948
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/46925316 2 August 1948 The West Australian (although family members mentioned, no mention of John Fox)
Possibly this would be her
(Online index) Esther Mary Freeman, aged 83, death registered in WA, her parents shown as John and Rose D R L M O ( ???) registered in 1973, Ref 3770/73
JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/27776922?searchTerm=esther mary fox&searchLimits=l-decade=192|||l-title=The+West+Australian+%28Perth%2C...%7Ctitleid%3A30|||l-year=1920
Esther MAry Fox's marriage notice in 1920 the father was still alive then
Jenn
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and that there was a younger brother (name unknown) of John
and Alexander who died of gunshot wounds by accident. JOBOY
Regarding your inquiry about the brother who had died accidentally of gunshot wounds.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzc/
This link will describe the circumstaces written in the newspaper in 1894.
The chap's name was WILLIAM FOX
Sue
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Father remarried :)
(JM Comment : In that era, I have noticed that frequently a widower with young children remarries, thus there is someone to raise the children while he continues working)...
"John Fox, of Dalkeith, whose wife was the victim of the famous Dalkeith tragedy, when her head was chopped open with an axe, was married again on Saturday. Fox, it will be remembered, was charged with the murder of his wife, but was acquitted. On this occasion he married a Miss Elizabeth Irwin, of Kensington. The Rev. A. Bray officiated. He at first refused to marry the couple, and an altercation ensued between them in the street. Fox then interviewed the sheriff, who stated that Mr Bray was bound to marry the parties."
28 September 1899 Kalgoorlie Western Argus
EDIT TO ADD .... Online Index gives her name as Elizabeth Minnie IRVINE .... #1288
JM
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Poor John ...
"I WILL NOT be RESPONSIBLE for any DEBTS contracted by my Wife, Minnie Fox. JOHN FOX, Gardener, Perth."
25 November 1905 The West Australian
This is of course, several months after his younger daughter was widowed ....
JM
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and that there was a younger brother (name unknown) of John
and Alexander who died of gunshot wounds by accident. JOBOY
Regarding your inquiry about the brother who had died accidentally of gunshot wounds.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzc/
This link will describe the circumstaces written in the newspaper in 1894.
The chap's name was WILLIAM FOX
Sue
Sue, i Saw this article and wondered if it pertained to the family but I was not convinced as the Bdm's show he was 32 years of age and his funeral notices dont reflect any family, he seems to be a working man
what do you think?
JEnn
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and that there was a younger brother (name unknown) of John
and Alexander who died of gunshot wounds by accident. JOBOY
Regarding your inquiry about the brother who had died accidentally of gunshot wounds.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzc/
This link will describe the circumstaces written in the newspaper in 1894.
The chap's name was WILLIAM FOX
Sue
Thanks for finding his first name Sue ......... with all this background I should be able to cobble together the Fox family origins in WA.
Joe
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Do we have John Alexander Fox' likely year of birth? That would help confirm if William aged 32 in 1894 was his YOUNGER brother .... :) and it could also help find John's d.c.
Cheers, JM
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Here is the birth in WA of the WILLIAM
FOX WILLIAM THOMAS
JOSEPH
BERRY MARY
PERTH
reg 6264
yr 1862
Other siblings show on the index.
The biographical notes which form part of the Newspaper reports say JOHN ALEXANDER came with his parents from England as a young child, so he would therefore be older than WILLIAM.
Sue
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He was with Perth City Council in 1908, funeral for his beloved wife, Minnie Elizabeth (Wesleyan Cemetery East Perth)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28836259 14 January 1908 The West Australian
and from http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/find/guides/wa_history/cemetery_records
"East Perth Cemetery
East Perth Cemetery was the first burial ground in Perth with interments commencing in 1830. Early settlers and pioneers were buried there until 1899 when Karrakatta Cemetery opened. Burials of descendants of these early pioneers continued until the mid 1920s.
A three volume work about this site, East Perth Cemetery: resting place of Western Australian pioneers, by James A Richardson (Q 929.5 RIC) provides useful details of the cemetery and people buried there.There is also a microfiche index of East Perth burials which was compiled by members of the Western Australian Genealogical Society (WAGS)."
JM
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I am more than overwhelmed with the speed that you rootschatters dig up information and detail ......... barely six hours and I got more than I asked for ... thank you all.
Joe
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I could be way off track but .... not found FOX = BERRY
6th May 1855, St Matthew Parish Church, Brixton, Surrey
Thomas FOX, 21, Bachelor, carpenter, of Brixton, son of Henry Fox, Upholster
married by Banns
Mary Ann BAYLEY, 21, Spinster, of Brixton, dau of Jeremiah Bayley, Coachman
Witnesses William Henry FOX and Elizabeth FOX ....
(all four signed)
I am unsure if BAYLEY could be transcribed (or mis-trancribed) as BERRY, but perhaps just keep a note (just in case)
William born 1862, in WA, so the question is probably when did the family arrive, with at least one child, ?
JM
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Post Office Directory 1924
John Fox 48 Smyth Rd, Subiaco
:)
Joe, have you tried the resources board for WA :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369921.0.html
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/find/guides/wa_history/post_office_directories
Cheers, JM
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Enough for today thanks ........ will follow your leads tomorrow ..... this 'oldie' has got to hit the sack now.
Goodnight
Joe
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Sory to be pain, :-[ but there is nothing as yet to confirm that William Fox was the younger brother of John Fox..... it would be interesting to know John's age at the murder of his wife who we know was only 15 years old when they married 1888 if he was born prior to 1862 he was at least 26 years old.
Jenn
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I could be way off track but .... not found FOX = BERRY
6th May 1855, St Matthew Parish Church, Brixton, Surrey
Thomas FOX, 21, Bachelor, carpenter, of Brixton, son of Henry Fox, Upholster
married by Banns
Mary Ann BAYLEY, 21, Spinster, of Brixton, dau of Jeremiah Bayley, Coachman
Witnesses William Henry FOX and Elizabeth FOX ....
(all four signed)
I am unsure if BAYLEY could be transcribed (or mis-trancribed) as BERRY, but perhaps just keep a note (just in case)
William born 1862, in WA, so the question is probably when did the family arrive, with at least one child, ?
JM
There father's name on the birth register as it is for a number of births is JOSEPH
Jenn
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Sory to be pain, :-[ but there is nothing as yet to confirm that William Fox was the younger brother of John Fox..... it would be interesting to know John's age at the murder of his wife who we know was only 15 years old when they married 1888 if he was born prior to 1862 he was at least 26 years old.
Jenn
There's only the newspaper account from John Fox' trial mentions the brother who was killed in the accident.
But I have not found any mention of the age of John Fox, his occupation, his parents names, his usual address, but I understand that it would that be on the 1888 m.c. and that additional information would be on the 1899 m.c. .... Perhaps the witnesses at the 1888 m.c. may be family members ;D, fingers crossed one was a younger brother for John :)
Cheers, JM
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Here are some connections attempting to link the man shot accidentally (WILLIAM) to other family members under discussion.
The FITZGERALD ST address which is a garden property and given as the location of the shooting in this description
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzk/
Here is an advertisement for the property giving the FITZGERALD ST. address placed by JAMES FOX
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzl/
Part of the biographical notes from the trial on JOHN ALEXANDER FOX tell of his father and the connection to the Garden in FITZGERALD ST, Anderson's Creek
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzm/
Funeral of Mary FOX," mother of JOHN and JOSEPH".
All off to the same cemetery... Referred to as relict of JAMES of the ANDERSON CREEK Garden
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzn/
It would seem then that the name of the father was JAMES.
Quoting again from the biographical notes in the trial
His father died only a few years ago.
A death is registered for
JAMES FOX
Aged 65
Perth
Yr 1894
Sue
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Well Researched and thought out Sue :D
The birth of Wiliam Thomas Fox you found in WA that matched his age at death has his parents as Joseph Fox and Merry Berry who also had a number of other children in WA. So this birth may not be of this particular William Fox.
The death notice of Mary Fox doesnt note mention the sons Alexander who appears in the Newspaper articles as John Alexander Fox's brother.
Jenn
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Hi,
Agree with Jenn, so here's my Well Done Sue :)
Re James or Joseph FOX .... and Mary or Merry BERRY .....
Would there be any likely connection to Adolphus George FOX who married Lavinia Sarah BERRY ON 21 Oct 1855 - Southwark, Surrey
Re John Alexander FOX birth ..... I cannot find it in England, closest I can find is a John Assiter FOX birth registered second quarter 1860 at Wandsworth. GRO Vol 1d Pg 398 ..... In other words could "Assiter" be a mis-transcription of "Alexander" ....
Cheers, JM
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I agree with you JENN.
However, this marriage has raised a suspicion in my mind!
FOX JAMES
B A RRY MARY
PERTH
REG 752
1854
You will note that the mother of WILLIAM and the other children was MARY B E RRY
and father JOSEPH
Not sure but a bit close I think.
Sue
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1861 UK RG9 370 65
(I think taken on 7 April 1861)
Marsh Rd, Battersea
7 Deraleigh Terraces
FOX, household
Geo Matthew, head, 32, bricklayer b Fulham
Mary Ann, wife, 32, b Chelsea
Wim Thos Albert, son 3 b Chelsea
John Assiter, son 11 months, b Battersea
Frances Jane, dau, 9, b Kensington
Mary Ann, dau, 7, Battersea
Have not found them in 1871 .....
Cheers, JM
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A question ::)
As the FOX family seem to have been a pioneer family in WA, did someone expunge the name or overlook it when compiling lists of those pioneering families
Barry .... not found a link
Berry http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mywamob/mywamob/1610.htm
Fox ...... not found a link
Cheers JM
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Some information about JOHN's brother JOSEPH FOX.
For interest
The biographical notes on the family and the trial mention
ARTHUR WILLIAM FOX describing him a the nephew of JOHN and son of JOSEPH.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3224322?searchTerm="arthur william fox"&searchLimits=
A death in NSW
REG 17625 YR 1928 FOX ARTHUR W
Father JOSEPH
Mother JANE A
AUBURN
A notice regarding the intestacy of above gives his fuller name.
ARTHUR WILLIAM ENOCH FOX.
{This is the second time I see the name ENOCH with FOX.
A son to JOSEPH and MARY BERRY was ENOCH.}
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16569395?searchTerm="arthur william enoch fox"&searchLimits=
This is the Newspaper death notice in WA for JOSEPH FOX in 1938, mentioning his late wife JANE,son ARTHUR and daughters.
{this death shows on the index, but parents are not listed}
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dzz/
JANE ANNIE FOX died in 1920 and is buried at KARRAKATTA
JOSEPH FOX is with her.
Sue
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A question ::)
As the FOX family seem to have been a pioneer family in WA, did someone expunge the name or overlook it when compiling lists of those pioneering families
Cheers JM
Most of the published Pioneers of XXX rely on input from persons with an interest / family in the area. Anyone not mentioned, it may be because their family did not know about being compiled / left it too late to do anything about it (read me!) / didn't realise the significance of either their family or the pioneer publication. I could no doubt find other reasons.
An instance: I once had someone from a country NSW historical society write me that my grandparents couldn't have married in their town because neither of them were mentioned in any histories of the area!!
As I have their original (issued on the day, at the church) marriage certificate, I advised her that she was wrong. Everyone doesn't get written up in the history books!
Dawn M
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Thanks Dawn ;D
Here's The West Australian's cutting for the 70 year old Mrs Joseph Fox , noting Arthur was in Sydney NSW .... http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/27781993 26 July 1920
NO mention of John or John Alexander FOX though
Cheers, JM
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By the death notice for Mrs Joseph Fox one of the daughter’s is Mrs Sweetman.
Now Hilda M Fox married Robert Sweetman in 1907 in WA
A probable birth
Hilda Maud Fox born 1884 in Melbourne reg no 19497
Mildred Rickards Fox born 1887 Melbourn reg no 12873
Parents Joseph Fox and Jane Annie KING
No marriage in Victoria though
There are interned together he died in 1938 aged 82
Jenn
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Ah. Victoria!! ;D
That is why I could find no births to the couple, though the children were listed.
This is perhaps the NELLIE mentioned.
FOX Nelly Mary
Father Jos
Mother: Jane Annie FOX
Place: SOUTH MELBOURNE
1891
Reg. 15023
Sue
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Hi,
Alas, I have not found John, but
I have followed his two daughters..... I summarise
1920 From marriage announcement for Esther Mary (May) FOX to William Caddy FREEMAN... John Fox was still alive on 15 May, 1920 and he was living at Claremount WA. (newspaper)
1921 on 18 May, a John Fox announces he will hold his weekly dancing class at St Marys. (Is that him? if so, did he marry Zelda Bailey several years later ? A John Fox and a Zelda Bailey were members of Sir Humphrey Bishop and company of comedians and vocalists, toured WA, SA etc, but I have not looked o'seas for any tours for them)
1925 Frederick and Rosalinda Perkins at Canning Road, East Freemantle (Electoral Roll)
1925 William and Esther Freeman at 27 Arthur St Subiaco (Electoral Roll)
1930 Mrs F Perkins with her daughter were at Canning Road East Freemantle (newspaper)
1931 Rosalinda Perkins at Canning Road, East Freemantle (Electoral Roll)
1931 William and Esther Freeman at 27 Arthur St Subiaco (Electoral Roll)
1936 Rosalinda Perkins at Richardson St, West Perth (Electoral Roll)
1937 Rosalinda Perkins at Ord St West Perth (Electoral Roll) as is her unmarried daughter, a typiste.
1938 (Rosalinda) Violet Perkins was at Subiaco where she died 11 December 1938 (newspaper)
1948 (Esther) Mary Freeman was at Subiaco, but formerly of Geraldton when her husband died. Her niece (married, but with same first name as the 1930 newspaper announcement) was then at Freemantle. .
1949 The niece and her husband and Esther Mary Freeman are at Freemantle. (Electoral Roll)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/27776922?searchTerm=esther mary fox&searchLimits=l-decade=192|||l-title=The+West+Australian+%28Perth%2C...%7Ctitleid%3A30|||l-year=1920
Esther MAry Fox's marriage notice in 1920 the father was still alive then
Jenn
Cheers, JM
PS. sorry, but I have over-written my word doc with the live links to trove, if needed I will re-visit trove, please let me know, though :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ )
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A John Fox acquitted of manslaughter in 1925 at South Perth. His wife, Zelda, gave evidence.
6 August 1925 The West Australian http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31872814
A John Fox, an Englishman on a business tour of Australia, his wife Zelda appearing in a play in Sydney in 1936, as reported in a Brisbane newspaper
Tuesday 31 March 1936 The Courier-Mail http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/36810791
1925 WA marriage registered at Perth, John FOX and Zelda A C BAILEY, # 472 ( Edit to add later on in this thread, it would seem this marriage was around 22 April 1925)
Cheers, JM
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Zelda re-marries
Gerald D Green to Zelda A C Fox Or Bailey in the Second Quarter 1943 Cheltenham Gloucestershire
GRO Vol 6a pg 1014
Edit to add
Death Zelda A C Green aged 50, Second Quarter 1961, at Cheltenham (Gloucestershire) Vol 7b pg 324
Cheers, JM
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1941
4 June 1941 The West Australian http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/47327871
John Fox v Zelda Arna Colleen Fox .... Desertion
Cheers, JM
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I have been trying to pursue family lines to get some further information as to your original question of John Alexander FOX's background
We are not seeming to achieve this goal.
Now depending on how far you want to pursue this, I really feel that you need to purchase a marriage certificate of this man the one for his marriage to Rosa in 1888 will give his father's name but the one to Minnie Elizabeth will give his mother's name as well.
Western Australian Certificates are not cheap but they service is very good from their BDM department ( I do speak from my own personal experiences only) and the certificates arrived in under 2 weeks.
Jenn
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1941
4 June 1941 The West Australian http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/47327871
John Fox v Zelda Arna Colleen Fox .... Desertion
Cheers, JM
my thoughts her are this Zelda was born in 1911 so very young for "our" John not impossible you might say however by 1941 on the desertion bit he was getting elderly to say the least ;)
Jenn
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I have that that Joseph FOX married Jane Annie King in Tasmania in 1880 and that William Arthurn Enoch Fox was born there in 1882
Jenn
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Hi there,
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31861332
3 June 1925 The West Australian
IF this is the John Fox who was the father of Esther and Rosalinda, then his evidence at the inquest gives some information
:) He had been married two days (ie married around 22 April 1925)
:) He had held a drivers licence in both NSW and WA but was “not now a licensed driver” (edit to add, Fox had held a WA drivers licence 'three years ago' (so he was in WA in 1922 !, so when was he in NSW ??)
:) He was driving his wife back to Cottesloe, and had been driving on the road a couple of years previously.
:) Frank Leighton Robertson, of Perth singing teacher, said that he was Fox’s STEP FATHER. (not sure if that would at that time be same as “father in law” would mean today)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31858776
20 May 1925 The West Australian
Letter to the Editor re the accident, signed by John Fox, Perth, mentioning he was staying at The Windsor Hotel.
I agree with Jenn that the certificates for the 1888 and 1905 oops 1899 marriages would be helpful.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/64051315
15 November 1924 The Register
If the John Fox who married Zelda A C Bailey in 1925 is the elusive chap you are seeking, then that m.c. would also be helpful.
:) I noticed that from the index for her d.c. she would have only been 14 when she married in WA to Fox., and also only 14 when she gave supporting evidence in the court case that followed that accident .... No mention of her youthfulness in those newspaper cuttings though .... :-X
:) It would seem her age at death would be a tad “out” (creative artistic licence perhaps ) for she was named in the newspapers as Miss Zelda Bailey, one of two solo dancers, with the Humphrey Bishop Company in South Australia in 1924.
Yes, in 1941 he would have been around 80, if that were him seeking a divorce .... Would the Supreme Court of WA have those divorce papers ? And where would he be living .... presume in WA, but where .... Not in England, surely, despite the 1936 newspaper cutting having him being an Englishman on a business tour of Australia .... If it is the elusive chap, John Alexander Fox, then he was not enrolled at either of his daughters addresses (in WA) that I have found...
And is it likely there would be Perth City Council records from 1908 (newspaper cutting for his wife's interment mentions the council).... and that is definitely the chap we have been looking for ...
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Frank Robertson, (the step father) sorted :) , and I think that would rule out the chap who married Zelda Bailey...
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/58062493 16 November 1924 Sunday Times
“Mrs. Frank Robertson and her clever little daughter Jean are leaving early next month on a trip to Adelaide, where many of Mrs. Robertson's relatives reside. They will then go on to Sydney to see Mrs. Robertson's son, Mr. John Fox.” (Even I cannot see any mother having a child (John Fox) in the 1860s and another (Jean) in the 1920's ;) )
Speculating again though .... there’s :
John Fox, late of Darcy Creek, WA, died abt 14 April 1921 Probate Intestate Administration
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/57973322 19 June 1921 Sunday Times
Most likely that cutting would refer to one of these d.c.s
John Fox, registered Gascoyne, #15
John Fox, registered E Coolgardie, #234
I am not sure where Darcy Creek would be ...
Cheers, JM
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I have been trying to pursue family lines to get some further information as to your original question of John Alexander FOX's background
We are not seeming to achieve this goal.
Now depending on how far you want to pursue this, I really feel that you need to purchase a marriage certificate of this man the one for his marriage to Rosa in 1888 will give his father's name but the one to Minnie Elizabeth will give his mother's name as well.
Western Australian Certificates are not cheap but they service is very good from their BDM department ( I do speak from my own personal experiences only) and the certificates arrived in under 2 weeks.
Jenn
I have seent off for the certificate of the marriage to Minnie Elizabeth but have some reserve as to whether I have completed their form correctly... I guess they will let me know ........ it was such a rigmarole which for an oldie was rather daunting ......... would love to have done it electronically as I do with UK and NSW.
Thanks to all of you for your help .......
Everyone loves a good murder eh? ........ will see if I can find some more ;)
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Do you know if anyone else was ever charged over the murder of John Fox's wife ? I have looked through trove and not been able that out....
Cheers, JM
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unfortunately not JM .......... it would be interesting to know ........ might be just an open verdict??
Joe
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It seems so Joe.
It amazes me though that in that era with the then racism policies that that the police seem to have overlooked charging the Chinese who John claimed had threatened him in the weeks before the murder.
Cheers, JM
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I know I shall look forward to your posting the information up from the marriage certificate lets hope it is not too long a wait Joboy
kind thoughts Jenn
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They will have got my application by now ......... I anticipate that they will contact me early next week to let me know where I have gone wrong with the form.
Will certainly let you know when they do.
Joe
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Rosalina Fox was my great aunt. I have researched her murder and the history of John Alexander Fox. Please contact me offline as it is far to large to post.
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Hello Roden and welcome to the RootsChat family.
You will need to have one or two more posts before Joboy or anyone can PM you. This is due to RC's policy, to prevent spam.
Just say OK, thanks in another post, and then something like 'hope to hear from you soon' in a third one, and the way will be clear.
Dawn M
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I know I shall look forward to your posting the information up from the marriage certificate lets hope it is not too long a wait Joboy
kind thoughts Jenn
This flurry of activity has stirred this old brain.
I should have answered before this Jenn ..John Fox (widower) 32 of Harley St Perth married Elizabeth Minnie Irvine (spinster) 24 of East Perth at Charles Street Wesleyan Church Sept 29 1899 and the witnesses were Septimus Dyson and Alexander Fox.
John Fox father was James (deceased) a gardener and his mother was Mary Powell Goode.
Elizabeth's father was George Irvine (deceased) a brickmaker and her mother Eliza Foster.
Joe
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Hi there Joboy
I am related to Joseph Fox (the one who married Mary Barry) via his brother Enoch Fox (which is no doubt how the name Enoch filtered it's way into the family!)
I am curious as to whether anyone (you or Rob Couzens) have ordered the marriage certificate of John Fox and Rose Maries in 1888 to see if the details match up with the details from the marriage cert from his second marriage to Elizabeth?
I noticed that there seem to be a fair few inconsistencies with the stories and the records and I am trying to get my head around it all.
1. John's marriage cert to Elizabeth in 1899 states his mother was Mary Powell Goode.... this doesn't match up with Mary Barry. Despite the fact the newspaper article does tie him up to being the same man who married Rosalinda who he was suspected of murdering in 1899.
2. His age on the marriage cert gives him as having a year of birth as 1867 - making him the younger brother out of he and William - the one who died in 1894 of the gunshot wound, not the older brother as the papers made out to be.
3. The paper's stating he had been born in England but came over with his parents - unless this was in some way covering up for the fact his father Joseph/James had been a convict, as no doubt that would have caused further suspicions on his character.
4. I have seen Rob Couzen's tree on Ancestry which also has children Henry b. 1871, Esther b. 1874 and Alexander b. 1877. None of these have births registered, unless for some reason they were under another surname. Esther married John Philip Litton in 1892 and she died in 1903 - which gives a year of birth around 1874. Perhaps by the time Mary nee Barry died in 1904 her other children had died or were living elsewhere and had fallen out with her hence not being named on her death notice?
It seems this family - if they are definitely all connected and are the same family, were quite unfortunate with all the tragedies they had. My line from Enoch also had some sadness with Enoch dying quite young and his widow re-marrying and then being widowed again quite quickly when her husband went to America and died there. Enoch and his wife had two children - one died in infancy and their surviving child Elizabeth went on to marry a man 21 years older than her who had been recently widowed and they had eight children of which 4 died in infancy and then her husband died in 1907 - after 22 years of marriage. She remarried several years later but was widowed again after just 9 years of marriage.
Please feel free to message me!
Regards
Alex
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Hi Alex and welcome to the MIWA club.
When I initiated this topic over 18 months ago I had no idea how far it would be researched by those that were interested in it.
It has spread into so many related areas.
I have not ordered the MC that you mentioned as I really dont have need of it.
They were indeed an unfortunate family as you say with tragedy both in UK and OZ... I dont think they were struck by a 'lucky star'at all.
I guess that more will be added by folk with an interest.
Joe
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Hello to all. Sorry for the belated reply. Work is definately the curse of family history research. I am more than happy to share my research of many years into the Fox family and the murder of my great aunt Rosalinda on the 4th February 1899 at Gallops Gardens, Dalkeith, W.A. James Fox ( and there is conjecture as to whether or not that was his name for there is no record of a James in the marriage of James Snr and Harriet Royle) arrived in Western Australia aboard the Mermaid on the 13th May 1851 as prisoner number 233 (his transportation papers list his name as Joseph Fox). This prisoner was granted permission to marry in 1854 and subsequently married Mary Barry on the 23rd of August 1854 and all 8 of their children were born in W.A. There is considerable confusion about Rosalinda's father due to the Anglisisation of the German Miers/Maries to Myers. His Germanic name was Herman Heinrich Miers and he disappeard at sea off Roeborne W.A. and his body was never recovered. On John Alexander Fox's marriage certificate to Rosalinda "Maries" her father is listed as "George Maries". It should be remembered that not a lot of people were literate and the spelling of names on many certificates were adapted from phonetic pronunciations. After Rosalinda's murder John Alexander subsequently married Elizabeth Minnie Irvine (who subsequently died on the 13th January 1908 from Myoma of the Uterus, Hystorectomy and exhaustion. After Minnies death he married Catherine Carey in 1909/1910 and moved to Victoria. Catherine passed away on the 10th August 1938 and John Alexander then married Maria May Fergusen. At John Alexander's passing Maria had John Alexander interred with Catherine.
Please contact me if I can help with any further information.
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Hi Everyone,
I'm a little late to Fox family talk. Almost 5 years too late. I hope some of you are still active on here.
I've come up my relative Alexander Fox who was born in Perth 1877, according to his marriage certificate. His parents listed where James Fox and Mary Gord. There's no Marriage between those two in WA, nor any birth certificates from WA to back up that he was born there. All I have is several families bringing up the fact that there was an Alexander Fox, born 1877 in the family of James and Mary Fox. Including an old Perth Pioneers book which mentions this same family that everyone is talking about here.
joboy mentioned this Alexander in the first post. In the murder trial when Alexander spoke it's mentioned that he worked in a popular Perth department store since he was a teenager. A little clue to my Alexander because he worked his entire life as a manager or hardware stores across Australia and NZ.
The other clue is AlexNoodle mentioning the Marriage Cert for John Fox to Elizabeth in 1899 mentioning his mother as Mary Powell Goode. Interesting how Alexander had his mother as "Gord", which sounds very much like Goode when spoken out loud. Maybe it was Mary's Maiden name and she was married once or so before taking the name Barry? There were other spelling errors on the Marriage cert, so I thought it's possible to be another spelling mistake. Roden43 even mentioned that certificates were sometimes in phonetic pronunciations.
Otherwise. I don't have anymore clues about Alexander's life before marriage. He was born in WA, married in New Zealand, had kids in NZ and Victoria, and spent the rest of his life in NSW. He also went by the name Alexander Edward Fox. He didn't bother to state his middle name on his marriage cert. Only after his marriage does he begin to add the "Edward" to his documentation. I don't know how he arrived in NZ before his 1904 Marriage or whether he kept in contact with the rest of his family.
I would love to know what John Alexander Fox's other two marriage certs say about the mother's surnames. If they're consistent. But I feel like I'm grasping at straws at his point.
Hope people were still interested in this family as I am.
Sean
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from reply #59 -
John Fox (widower) 32 of Harley St Perth married Elizabeth Minnie Irvine (spinster) 24 of East Perth at Charles Street Wesleyan Church Sept 29 1899 and the witnesses were Septimus Dyson and Alexander Fox.
John Fox father was James (deceased) a gardener and his mother was Mary Powell Goode.
......and assuming that I am correctly following the two stories -
If this witness is your Alexander FOX, married NZ 1904, you could compare signatures on the two certificates?
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I hadn't even noticed on that post that Alexander was a witness.
I'm afraid the copy that I was sent from NZ was a transcribed copy, not the original. I'm not sure if they scan the originals. Or if i cheapened out when I bought the one that was a few dollars cheaper. I was under the impression they were scanned like the Victorian ones were.
Maybe it's possible to get a scan, and look at this other certificate to match handwriting. Still grasping at straws here. I need to find a boat leaving WA with an Alexander Fox on board from 1899-1904 I think.
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There is a probate packet for an Alexander Edward FOX who died in 1936 at NSW state records.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/580267
Is this your man?
I could photograph it next time I am there if you don't have it but I doubt if it will give many clues about his early life. I see the corresponding death entry in NSW BDM has parents as John and Mary so the death cert (if included) may not be much help. But always worth a try :)
Ros
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I'd never heard of such a probate existing? That would be amazing if I was able to see it.
That's definitely him. The people mentioned in the newspaper for his funeral are my great aunts and uncles. The parents names really sent me on a goose chase last year, but his marriage cert gives a James and Mary as the parents which has lead me to the Foxes of WA.
The father's name being wrong makes me think he didn't speak much about his family to his wife. Death certs aren't always that reliable. I'm still very interested though, even if it doesn't bring much light to his early life.
The born 1877 in Perth, WA. Working as a Salesman on the marriage cert really is the best clue I have of his early life.
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Pleasure to help Seany :) I've added it to my list.
Ros
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Hi Everyone. I just found Alexander Edward Fox's old bible. Kept by his daughter. I have a little bit more info from the back page.
It says. Alexander was born 21 April in Hay Street, Perth, WA.
He died at the age of 60 on 24-6-1936.
There's no birth certs for Alexander on the WA BDM. How on earth am I going to locate that! At least I now have a birthday and a street.
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So this is my best actual evidence that Alexander comes from this family.
http://slwa.wa.gov.au/data/wabi/F/F2709.jpg
http://slwa.wa.gov.au/data/wabi/F/F2710.jpg
These WA Biographical Index Cards have Alexander attached to the Fox family with the same birthday. I was only able to find his birthday from an old bible written on in the 30's. Still would have been nice to find the birth certificate but no one in WA can find the official one yet.
Does anyone already have a copy of James and Mary Fox's marriage certificate?
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Hi Seany
I don't have a copy of James and Mary's marriage cert but I have seen on Ancestry there are a couple of trees that have the date being 23rd August 1854 at the Perth Wesleyan Chapel but not seeing any images or source information for them.
If anyone does order it - would love to see the info on it.