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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: kooky on Friday 01 July 11 14:12 BST (UK)
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I am investigating this family for my son-in-law.
I have his gr.gr. father, John Robertson, in Nov. 1912, age 23, marrying Mary Ann Merrilees Anderson at 1, Madeira Place, Leith, in SP. He lived at 13, Industry Lane.
His father is noted as Harry Carden Jones, seaman, deceased. His mother is Agnes Jones, MS Robertson.
Harry Carden Jones, seaman, Royal Navy, married Agnes Robertson spinster, in 1885
I cannot find a birth for John in 1889.
In the 1891 census, John D Robertson age 2 is with his mother Agnes B.Robertson, and the house holder Elizabeth Robertson, grand mother.
I have 2 problems ::)One, why is he Robertson, not Jones, Two, where is Harry Jones in 1891?
Any ideas?
Kooky
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Hi
There is a Service Record for a Henry Carden Jones on the National Archives website, downloading this may answer where he was in 1891 and when he died:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8383935&queryType=1&resultcount=4
Martin
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Hi Kooky and Martin
Kooky, son John shows as born in Leith on the 1901 census entry:
Agnes R Jones 39 Rope Spinner b. Leith
John Jones 12 b. Leith
Address: 6 Sheriff Brae, Leith
There is one birth entry showing in Leith for a John Jones in 1888. three for the whole of Edinburgh area between 1888-89. Have you checked any of these?
Have you checked original images of the censuses to see whether Agnes mother (who doesn't seem to be ageing much between censuses!) is showing as still married or widowed?
Monica :)
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Thank you both!
Martin, I have looked at Henry's record quickly.No death immediately obvious!
Monica, I have run out of SP credits. Will buy some more and check the John Jones births as you suggest!
Kooky
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Hi
A tree on A*y states John Robertson Carden JONES, born 10 Nov 1888 at 6 Sheriff Brae to Agnes ROBERTSON (1862-1951) & Harry Carden JONES (b abt 1859) It gives Agnes parents as John ROBERTSON & Janet DOUGAL - this family, with 8 yr old dau Agnes are at 3 Sheriff Brae in 1871 and at 6 Sheriff Brae in 1881 with dau Agnes age 18 in the house.
I think the 1891 you've cited above is not the right one.....
In 1891:
5 Sheriff Brae, Leith (Household Schedule 15)
Head: Agnes JONES 29, Sailors wife, b Leith
Son: John JONES 2, b Leith
On Household Schedule 11, at 5 Sheriff Brae - is her mother and brothers:
Head: Janet ROBERTSON 74, b Biggar, Lanark
Son: Thomas ROBERTSON 32, Labr Iron Works, b Leith
Son: George ROBERTSON 25, gardener's labr, b Leith
Grandson: Thomas GUTHRIE 20, gardener's labr, b Leith
Cheers
AMBLY
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That 1891 entry makes more sense Ambly and leads well into the 1901 entry :)
Monica
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Kooky
Looking again at the service record I gave you this is prefixed ADM 139, which only takes his service up to 1873. Having looked again there is a further record that covers the period from 1873 until he left the service:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7372185&queryType=1&resultcount=628
I should have noticed this sooner :-[
Martin
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Thank you all!
I had realised the 1891 census was probably not correct.
Ambly, thanks for the 1891 census for Janet.
Martin, I will check the further record!
Kooky
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Had a look at the tree on Ancestry. We seem to agree, apart from one line :-\
Looks like more credits for SP needed ::)
Kooky
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Have now found John's birth, as Jones ::)
Also found his parents' marriage in London, 1846.
Looked at Henry's naval records. His mother signed the permission for him to join, when he was 18.
Have not yet found his death. His mother remarried and is Jane Carter on Henry and Agnes' marriage.
Thanks for all the help!
Kooky
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I have Henry (Harry) Carden JONES born 1858 in my tree. Son of William Carden JONES & Jane nee PALMER
Problem I have him in 1871 with his mother & brother in Hampshire
By 1881 he is in the Navy he married a Margaret SOAMES in 1892 in Kent
1891 still in Navy
1901 in Folkestone
1906 remarries Caroline nee Gwynne previously McInery
they have 4 children
Does this fit in?????
Ms Robertson seems to have been previous to the 2 marriages I have, I only have I child that survived Florence born 1915
Any info would be gratefully received
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Forgot Henry Dies 1932 Elham in Kent
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Well! :o
Looks like Harry may have been a bigamist!
I do not have him in the 1901.
On all the other trees I have seen he is supposed to have died about 1901.
Do you have his birth cert? I have sent to Camden for it. It seems to be taking a long time!
Also, do you know when his father died?
Do you have his marriage to Margaret. I was wondering what status he was! ::)
I did notice the death in 1932, and wondered!!
Kooky
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Bigamist along with his father I think! ;)
I don't have cert for marriage to Margaret.
I also didn't know about Agnes & John
Henry Carden JONES
Born 15th Aug 1858
32 Stonecastle Street Regents Park London Middlesex
F: Wm CardenJONES
M: Jane nee PALMER
1901
Henry C Jones
Age: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Single
Civil parish: Folkestone
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary and St Eanswyth
Town: Folkestone
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Occupation: Hotel Porter
Registration district: Elham
Sub-registration district: Folkestone
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 62
I have his father as William Carden born cica 1811/13 Ireland
died 7th Aug 1862 42, Argyle Square Pancras london Death by Apoplexy ie: heart attack
Mother Jane/Jenny/janette
He also had another brother Charles Willoughby Wilson JONES/JOHNS/CARTER many a surname could be added Mother Jane Father Charles Wilson JOHNS who does not seem to exist........
1871 shows them all together
1871 census
Waterloo Road The Star Hotel Public House
Millbrook Hampshire
Jane Carter 34 widow Innkeeper Croydon, Surrey, England Head
Charles W Carter 7 Southton, Portswood Son
Henry C Jones 13 Regents Park, London, England Son 1858
Any comments welcome, very confusing family
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Gosh 8)
It is a bit late for me to be thinking sensibly.
I need to find the file, and see what I have, tomorrow!
Kooky
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Hello,
Just came across your post while taking up my research again after coming to dead end!
John Robertson is my great grandfather, Harry Carden Jones is my great great grandfather, I have been trying to find out more information on Harry Carden Jones and why my great grandfather dropped his last name to take up his mothers maiden name.
I just wondered if you found that the information Pike gave you matched up?
On the 1901 census I have for 6 Sheriff Brae it had Agnes & John, she is down as being a widow.
On the death certificate I have for Agnes Robertson it states that she is a widow of 1.Harry Carden Jones Seaman (merchant navy) 2. James Tedford
Many Thanks
:)
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Thank you for your interest!
My Robertson file is elsewhere at the moment.
From memory I think Henry had disappeared rather than died :-\
Perhaps you could pm me with how you are descended from John Robertson?
You should be able to do that after another post or two.
I will retrieve my file. 8)
All of Pike's info matched up. She also sent me some photos. I could send them to you by e-mail - only mention your e-mail in a pm!
Kooky
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Thank you for getting back to me with that, I really appreciate it!
I thought it was a bit suspicious as I couldn't find a death certificate & wondered why he had dropped his last name to take up his mothers maiden name. ???
So glad you managed to get further on your research.
I will pm you my email address when it lets me! :)
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Hello
I also have Henry Carden Jones in my family tree, he was married to Caroline McInery my grandfathers younger sister.
I know Henry was previously married to Florence Kate Greer b 1871 on 30 Apr 1892, Willesborough, Kent, I have a copy of the marriage certificate, other marriages I'm not so sure about.
Henry's children from the marriage to Caroline are: Henry Carden Jones b1907 d1926, Charles T Jones born and died 1913, Florence Beatrice Jones b1915 d1995 and Charles E Jones b1917 d2001
William Carden Jones b1811 in Ireland d1862 Pancras 1b 47 Q3 according to the 1851 census was either married to or in a relationship with Kate Palmer b1827 he subsequently married Jane Russell b1837 d1909 in 1857 Kensington 1a 109 Q1 as Jane Russell. On 14 May 1838 William was on trial at the Old Bailey for larceny and was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment, a record of the trial can be found on the Old Bailey website.
To my knowledge Jane Russell married a further two times: 1. William John Carter b1840 d1870 on 7 Jul 1867 South Stoneham 2c 93 Q3 as Jenny Jones and 2. Harry May b1867 d1895 on 13 May 1895 Southampton 2c 92 Q2 as Jane Carter.
One child from Jane's marriage to William Carter: Charles William Carter b1865 South Stoneham 2c 41 Q4
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Gosh! Thank you for your input.
I have no printing facility at the moment.
I will come back to look at this again.
I have not done much on this tree for some time, so need to refresh my memory.
Thanks again!
Kooky
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Hi Dilinger
I have been talking very recently to Henry C Juniors family through daughter Florence if you would like their details PM me
You say Henry Senior married a Jane RUSSELL it was Jane PALMER who was my GT GT GT Grandmother I have photo's of her & her mother if you are interested
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Hi Pike!
Yes I thought that was not quite right too!
Kooky
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Hi Pike
As yet I haven't posted enough posts to allow me to send a pm message. I have made changes to my tree regarding your Gt Gt Gt Grandmother and yes I would like copies of the photographs, as soon as I am able to send a pm message I will send you my email address
regards Dilinger
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Hi
if you send an email to (*)
I will get your email & send them to you
Nicola Pike
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi, I'm a total novice at this, only just joined ??? ;D
My grandfather was Harry Carden-Jones and he died in Dorset in about 1968/9.
Harry C-J was married to Dorothy (known as Mimi) but estranged from her at time of his death. Any info and help very welcome as I have only tiny snippets of family history.
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Thanks for message. Not looked at this for some time. Will get back to you soon.
Kooky
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Hi i now have more info on Harry Carden-Jones from the Chatterbox room. Really helpful info and super fast!
I'll await a mail whenever you can. Thanks.
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I only have info I've discovered re H.C.Jones up to 1901. He was noted as died in the 1901 census :o
Other people will be able to help with the C20th stuff.
I could fill you in on his mother and first wife Agnes Robertson.
Kooky
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Thanks but I think this must be another Harry Carden-Jones. I have him as born Kensington 1882 and died in the late 1960's in Dorset.
Could it maybe be his father that you have a record of?
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Yes you are probably right!
Your Harry is my Henry's son.
Kooky
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I seem to have progressed further today that i could have thought possible.
If, and it is a big IF, all the info checks out it could run;
Patrick Carden Jones b Poole 19th August 1915. d Jan 1975 (abroad), 100%
son of Harry Carden-Jones b Kensington June 1882, d Poole 1968?, 99%
son of Henry Carden-Jones b Regents Park August 1858
son of William C Jones b 1811/13 Ireland, d 7 August 1862
This would tie in with vague family history I know about property (an estate?) in Ireland that burnt down during the troubles?
I know this becomes a complex family tree in the 20C and I'm interested to see how much further I am able to go back and how much I can find out about these people.
I'm a novice at this but learning fast ;D
Thanks for help so far. If there are any things that seem to be incorrect can anyone tell me please?
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The Carden Jones men are wonderful aren't they....... Bigamy, illegitimate children all over & general abandonment of all the women they hooked up with ...........
William Carden JONES you say married Jane RUSSELL in 1857 ? This isn't correct as I can see
He married/relationship Kate PALMER
the Jane PALMER
He was married or still with Jane when he died in 1862
1851 he is on Isle of Wright with Kate Palmer Jones marked as wife
& a Jane no age unmarried
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:) Seems so..... haven't really had time to investigate all the Carden-Jones wives/mistresses/children etc.
I'll PM you if that's ok and you can fill in the details maybe?
Ha ha, this is fun.
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Yes PM me
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Hi, sorry to weigh in but, I think Harry Carden-Jones 1882 (who made his christian name of Carden his surname by adding the hyphen by deed poll, I believe), was the son of Alfred Richard Jones and Eliza Jesse (Thomson). As far as I can tell, Alfred was the son of the extremely complicated and probably bigamous William Carden Jones. Alfred was christened in Kent in the 1830s
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Hi ToryM, your contribution to the thread is very welcome. Thank you.
Due to family issues I've had to "park" any research for the moment but I expect to take it up again when long winter nights kick in.
Have you any personal interest in the "Carden-Jones" family?
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I stumbled across this post whilst research a Patrick Carden-Jones. I am working on a book detailing all who served with the Air Transport Auxiliary during WWII and I believe the Patrick Carden-Jones you have as being born in 1915 could be the same person I have on my list.
I know these posts are old but if you happen to pick up this message I would dearly like to hear what you have on this person and if you have any photos of him.
Many thanks,
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Hi Acia, you certainly are on the right track there.
My father Patrick Carden-Jones served with the ATA during WW2. My brother, David, knows many more details than I do.
If you would like more info please feel free to private message me.