RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Crunwere on Sunday 31 July 11 12:48 BST (UK)
-
This is linked to my original query in uk - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546859.new;topicseen#new
Since that post we have found that JOHN LLOYD's Attestation Papers show he enlisted on Feb 22nd 1916. His date of birth is shown as 19 Nov 1875. His wife, Sarah Jane remained back in Wales at Ruel Wall, Crunwear, Pembrokeshire.
We know his residence was shown on the papers as 'Tophild Alta'
would that be Topfield?
All we know is that he died on 11/11/1918 and his gravestone back in Wales states D.Lovat, Canada - -can anyone help fill in what happened and where he is buried pleae?
-
John Lloyd
Regimental # 101679
joined 22 Feb 1916, Edmonton, Alberta
66th Oversea Battalion, Edmonton Guards
Embarkation, 66th Battalion
Halifax
SS Olympic
April 28, 1916
John Lloyd is on the list
I would order his complete military file from Library and Archives Canada, the same site that you viewed his attestation papers. They are well worth the money and may give you the information that you are searching for. If he died in 1918, it was probably in a military hospital back in Canada. The file will give you this information. Debarkation of soldiers after the first world war was usually in 1919 so for him to be back in Canada before that would suggest he was injured. His military file will give you info on pay docs, next of kin, transfers to battalions, injuries, hospitals and possibly his death.
The 66th battalion was broken up upon arrival in England and the men transferred to other battalions. I haven't been able to determine where he went.
Other sources that may help you are the public library in Edmonton and also the military museum in Calgary.
www.themilitarymuseums.ca
I checked the Commonwealth War Graves Commissions and he isn't listed so didn't die overseas.
Tofield is a small community 68 km east of Edmonton.
Hope this helps.
-
Thanks Valeriec - so much info in such a short spcae of time - thansk for the pointers - we will follow them up.
-
According to one site the 66th Battalion was raised in Edmonton Alberta is August 1915 and sailed in 1916 under the command of Lt. Col. J. W. McKinery with a strength of 1007, all ranks.
The Battalion was absorbed into the 9th Reserve Battalion in England and disbanded in 1920.
Some War diaries are available at Library and Archives Canada and only one month for the 66th battalion (April 1916).
I haven't been able to determine what happened with the 9th Reserve.
I really think I would order his file.
In one file that I ordered (my grandfather), I was able to determine the battalion he was with when he was injured and then went to the war diaries to read what went on the day he was injured. it was very informative. He actually spent 11 days in field hospitals before being sent back to England where he was in 3 different hospitals before being sent back to Canada. Every movement was in his file, dates taken on strength and off, exact dates for hospitals, etc. Amazing for the time period and everything written by hand or typed.
-
info on the 9th reserve from the Matrix Project
http://www.cefresearch.com/matrix/Utilities/reserves/9th.htm
-
Thanks Valeriec for helping us out so much - I am sure my friend will order the file as suggested. How fascinating to have so much information aiiable.
Thanks for pointing us in the right direction.
-
It says Tofield on the signup http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc009/469156a.gif
Valerie has given you the best advice...to order the military file. No hospitals, military or otherwise....come up for Lovat, Nova Scotia.... Hopefully the papers will explain more for you, as medical history is often a main element. J.J.
( also suggest that you modify to correct the main subject line to read Lloyd )
-
Thanks J.J. - and I've altered (corrected) the heading!
-
Back again - have turned up a bit more from the Welsh side.
There is a matching gravestone in Eglwyscummin Churchyard. "John Lloyd, son of the aforesaid ( Walter Lloyd), Died Nov 11th 1918 aged 44. Interred at Lovat, Alberta, Canada." No mention of a wife and family. It was only when I was going through my collection of Eglwyscummin family graves that the penny dropped with a thud that your mystery John Lloyd was the same as my mystery John Lloyd. I had wondered about him since I saw his name a few years ago, and what he was doing out in Canada. He is a member of a very old and well established family in Eglwyscummin, going back at least to the early 1700's.
So it seems he is buried at Lovat - anyone I can contact who may have info on Lovat graves/headstones?
-
I can't find a Lovat, Alberta but did find a Lovett, alberta that was part of the Coal Branch. Most of the small towns that were along the coal branch are now ghost towns, Lovett among them. If you google - Coal Branch ghost Towns Lovett, Alberta some sites with pictures should come up.
Some sites that may be able to help you are
Edmonton Public Library
www.epl.ca/contactepl
Yellowhead County - Contact
www.yellowheadcounty.ab.ca/aco_us.html
I still think your best bet is to get his military file to find out if he was injured or released and sent back to Canada for any reason. It will be in the military file. It won't cost a lot of money to access the file through Library and Archives Canada and may give you the answers that you are seeking.
-
Another site that may be able to locate the Lovat/Lovett cemetery is the Alberta Family Histories Society
http://afhs.ab.ca/aboutus/contacts.shtml
-
Thanks Valerie for both replies - will follow up.
i know friend was going to get the military papers but has been in hosp etc so we've not followed through on everything yet.
Your advice is much appreciated.
-
anyone can order the military files, it does not need to be a relative
-
Thanks Valerie - think we'll have to.
Contacted the Alberta Family History Society adn they rpleid very promptly - but had not heard of Topfield or Lovet!
-
I found this site and thought I would post it just in case at some point you decide to try to find his death registration.
www.servicealberta.ca/766.cfm
-
There appears to be a Lovat Cemetery but it's Ontario Canada (still in use)
Lovat was a small community located in Bruce County....... A large cemetery was opened around 1854.
http://www.ghosttownpix.com/ontario/imgNW/lovatimg.html
-
Have now received John Lloyd's large military file and would like some help identifying some initials and units.
John was posted to 1st Pioneer Batt. on reaching England. He reached France on 6 July 1916 and was sent to 1st Can. Entrenching Bn in the field. Did this unit do what it sounds like - dig and repair trenches, etc?
John paraded sick on 5 Dec 1916 complaining of nausea and vertigo and general weakness, several days after "exposure to shell fire on the Somme". He was in no 3 Can Field Ambulance for 10 days with Vertigo.Dysporia.Heart and epilepsy before being discharged. On 25 Dec 1916 he was classified P.B. and attached to C.C.Comp. Co. and served in the field. What does this Co. do?
26 May 1917 - 1st Pioneers became 9th Batt C.R.T., and John became a Sapper. I understand this is Railway Troops so what was their job?
On 3rd Sept 1917 John paraded sick again, at Vimy Ridge, with pain in his chest, arms and legs. He was immediately sent back to base hospital, and then invalided back to England, with myalgia and precordial distress.
He was in Etaples 12 days, Bethnal Green 12 days, Bromley, 10 days, Bushy Park 16 days, Buxton 2 months, and Liverpool 5 weeks. He was invalided back to Canada on the Llandovery Castle on 28th Feb 1918, to Halifax. He was in hospital in Wetaskiwin, Alberta for 2 months, then 5 weeks at S.M.H. Is that Calgary?
He was discharged from service on 17th Aug 1918 at Calgary, with the intention of living in the G.W.V.A. in Edmonton. Is this a convelescent home?
He died on 11th Nov 1918. Death was attributed to military service.
In 1925 a scroll and plaque was sent to his widow. What were these like?
Hope I haven't asked too many questions, but it was a large file - 87 pages.
Rhosgoch
-
Wow you certainly have unearthed a can of worms there - way more than we were expecting!
Shame friend away for a few days or she'd be over the moon to have all that info.
Like you I don't know what any of it means yet but will try to look into it and I might have someone who might understand it a bit better if he has the time.
Did all the pages arrive via email?
-
1st Canadian Entrenching Bn diaries for 1916/17 are here - http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/warDiaryLac/wdLacP15.asp
1st Entrenching Bn at Vimy Ridge - see Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vimy_Ridge_order_of_battle
-
G.W.V.A. Edmonton = Great War Veterans Association (GWVA) - but where would he have actualy lived??
Weird how he was taken from UK back to Canada when he was ill in hospital over in UK first?
The Llandovery Castle was a Canadian Hospital Ship. From Wikipedia:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/RMS_Llandovery_Castle.jpg)
The Llandovery Castle, built in 1914 in Glasgow as RMS Llandovery Castle for Union Castle Line, was a Canadian hospital ship torpedoed off southern Ireland on 27 June 1918 with the loss of 234 lives.
When the crew took to the lifeboats, U-86 surfaced, ran down all the lifeboats except one, and shot at the people in the water. Only the 24 people in the remaining lifeboat survived. They were rescued shortly afterwards and testified as to what had happened. Among those lost were fourteen nursing sisters from across Canada.
After the war, the captain of U-86, Lieutenant Helmut Patzig, and two of his lieutenants were arraigned for trial in Germany on war crimes, but Brümmer-Patzig left the country and avoided extradition; and though the two lieutenants were convicted and sentenced to four years in prison, they both escaped.
-
Back again - have turned up a bit more from the Welsh side.
There is a matching gravestone in Eglwyscummin Churchyard. "John Lloyd, son of the aforesaid ( Walter Lloyd), Died Nov 11th 1918 aged 44. Interred at Lovat, Alberta, Canada." No mention of a wife and family. It was only when I was going through my collection of Eglwyscummin family graves that the penny dropped with a thud that your mystery John Lloyd was the same as my mystery John Lloyd. I had wondered about him since I saw his name a few years ago, and what he was doing out in Canada. He is a member of a very old and well established family in Eglwyscummin, going back at least to the early 1700's.
So it seems he is buried at Lovat - anyone I can contact who may have info on Lovat graves/headstones?
Lovett, AB was on the Alberta Coal Branch (rail line). I Googled it and found that an author / photographer with whom I am acquainted has written about Lovett and the other Coal Branch communities as well as taken a raft of photos. I've sent him a message to ask if he can shed some light on the presence/condition of the graveyard at that location.
Cheers,
-
Just to clear up misunderstandings.
V.D.Heart - Vertigo, Dysporia, Heart.
-
Thanks Red Mystic - that sounds very promising.
-
Thanks Red Mystic - that sounds very promising.
In the event you want to check out the terrain, here's a link.
http://www.ghosttowns.com/canada/alberta/albertacoalbranch.html
I'm heartened to see that there are photos of the graveyard at Robb (remains a community), which leads me to hope for the best when it comes to photos of the Lovett graveyard.
Though a ghost town now, Lovett was quite prosperous at the time your fellow was buried there. Was the family from Eglwyscummin connected to coal mining in any way?
-
Ahhh ...my author acquaintance has responded.
I was at Lovett in 2002. One needs special permission to go to the townsite and the cemetery. The entire area is owned by a mine company. When I was there the cemetery at Lovett was in remarkably good condition. I would love to go back there. There used to be four coal mining towns within 10 kilometres of each other - Lovett, Coal Valley, Foothills and Sterco. All are ghost towns now. Lovett though is in the best condition. There are still several buildings left at the townsite.
Is there any way I could help? I do have some great shots of the Lovett cemetery.
Would you like to make a request of him? If you PM me (using the green scroll below my avatar) with your e-mail address, perhaps I can connect the two of you. He is a lovely, generous fellow who may provide you with some pics.
I'm heading out for Thanksgiving dinner, but will return to the desktop in the morning.
Cheers,
-
Thanks ever so much RedMystic - I have sent you a p.m..
Yes we would love your friend to help - but I do not want to put him to too much trouble in case that is the wrong place? Was just wondering if the Edmonton place he John Lloyd was living before he died might provide a link - or perhaps his death cert?
I would hate to send someone on a wild chase to the wrong place.
Hope you enjoyed your dinner!
Regards
ps - as far as we know he was not connected to mining and called himself a farmer - but who knows??
-
Hi Crunwere
I've sent an e-mail to you and my author acquaintance so you can connect on the Lovett cemetery discussion. Please let us know if that turns into anything.
Given that Lovett, AB was about 340 km west of Tofield along the Yellowhead Highway (which runs through east/west Edmonton), it's a stretch, but one never knows. Here it is on Google maps.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?rlz=1T4ADBS_enCA330CA330&q=tofield,+alberta&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x53a0776f0a2e8f07:0xbabd75038cda1df6,Tofield,+AB&gl=ca&ei=nfySTvivJu74sQKgsbShAQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum
NOTE: Sorry, I can't get this link to work properly. ::) You can see what I'm referencing if you open the link, click "Directions" on the left, leave the Tofield box as it is, and type "Robb" in the other box. (Robb is the closest community to Lovett that is still inhabitted.)
It occurred to me that you might want to try to obtain his will. If he had a farm by Tofield (it's lovely farm land), one would think he would have left that to someone - hopefully the wife he left behind in Wales, though one never knows.
I'm not sure how you'd go about that in Alberta, but I'm confident one of the the Chatters does.
-
Hi RedMystic,
Although John came from a farming family, he went out to Alberta about 1910 as a miner. His last place of work before enlisting was as a miner at the Big Valley Collieries - at $4 a day. I understand that Big Valley is near Red Deer. Maybe the same coal company owned mines in both places? I wonder if he had friends at Lovett who he went to live with after leaving hospital, or even if there was a convalescent facility there.
He is definitely buried at Lovett, Alberta, as it is very clearly written on his memorial stone in Eglwyscummin Church.
I also would love to see a photo of his last resting place.
Regards
-
Hi Rhosgoch
Welcome to RootsChat.
The mining connection is making much more sense now. Be sure to provide that info to my author acquaintance when you're corresponding as he is a whiz when it comes to small Saskatchewan & Alberta communities that were homesteaded and then abandoned or virtually abandoned - and has photographs of almost all of them.
Big Valley is in central Alberta not far from me. It was first a mining town and then a railway town. Big Valley Colliers was well entrenched there by 1912 and the mine closed in 1927.
My author / photographer acquaintance sent me some lovely photos of the Lovett cemetery this morning (he's a very good photographer), but I'd prefer to connect the two of you. Please click on the green scroll below my avatar & send your e-mail address so I can put you in touch directly.
Cheers,
-
Thansk to Red Mystic for all her help and info.
Rhosgoch - you have more details than me so will you be contacting RedMystic direct to forward your mining details to her friend? No point us both doing it - but I will if you wish.
Had not heard of his mining in Big Valley - they have a village site - http://www.villageofbigvalley.ca/Home.page
He is recorded on the Lampeter Velfrey war memorial in Pembrokeshire, West Wales, UK -
John Lloyd, Private, 101679, Canadian Pioneers.
(http://www.pembrokeshire-war-memorial.co.uk/userimages/Lampeter_Velfrey_Memorial_Web.jpg)
c. Pembrokeshire War Memorial site - Steve John http://www.pembrokeshire-war-memorial.co.uk/page30.htm
-
Crunwere - you know as much as I do now so you can make the contact if you like. You are the one who started this journey so it's fitting for you to finish it. His mining details were in the Military file. It was a surprise to me as well. All I want is a photo of the cemetery to close his story.
regards
-
Hi - back again.
RedMystic - we did do private emails but never had a response from your friend as far as I can see - unusual as your contact re Lovett sounded so helpful.
Not seen it myself yet but someone has obtainded John Lloyd's death cert. and have forwarded it with other evidence to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (I think) to see if John Lloyd can be officially recorded as being a War Casualty - so that spurred me into looking at his information again.
-
Hi Crunwere,
There was no photo of John Lloyd's grave, just general photos of the cemetery which I think you already have. All the old grave markers, probably wooden, were replaced by wooden crosses with Rest in Peace on them. There were very few named graves.
Steve obtained John Lloyd's death certificate, but it contained very little information. He has forwarded it to the CWGC to try and get John commemorated. He should be listed as a casualty as his widow received a Memorial Cross, Memorial Plaque and scroll because his death was officially caused by his war service.
Regards,
R.
-
Thanks Rhosgoch - disappointing to hear we'll not find the grave after we have traced him this far.
-
I'm on the road until Tuesday, but let me poke my acquaintance to see if he can weigh in. He has had a busy spring, but I might be able to light a fire.
-
Thanks RedMystic - no rush at all.
Cheers
-
(http://o.mfcreative.com/f1/file01/objects/b/8/6/1b868c8f-4d6a-4047-b4a6-dc3cf412da66-1.jpg)
Some very good news to report - with the help of relatives and Steve John who runs a War Memorial website is South Wales John Lloyd has now been officially recognised as a War Casualty and is recorded in the Canadian Book of Remembrance.
Weirdly his death cert gives his date of death as 10th November while the gravestones in UK say 11 November - but we may still get to the bottom of that.
Also the military may be visiting/locating John Lloyd's grave so he may get an offical war headstone - will keep you all posted.
Thanks for all your input with this - John can now be officially remembered on our Remembrance Day in November while this time last year he was just a name on a headstone and no-one knew of his war service.
-
Hi Crunwere,
Congratulations on getting John Lloyd the recognition he deserves. :)
I should have photos of the Lovett graveyard & town-site before the end of the weekend. I'll post them here when they arrive.
Cheers,
-
Wow thanks RedMystic - its all coming together now isn't it!!
-
Here is what Johnnie has.
He can't tell us who is in the specific graves, but the pictures give you a sense of what is left of the ghost town of Lovett. Given that some of the crosses are original & some are newer, it looks like the mining firm that owns the lease on is allowing someone on to maintain the cemetery.
If you use these photos in your tree, please provide to credit Johnnie Bachusky
www.nobleghosts.com
-
Another cemetery pic.
The system is only allowing me to load 1 pic at a time.
I have resized these to fit RootsChat parameters. If you want the originals with higher definition, you can send me your e-mail by PM (little green scroll under my avatar).
If you use these 4 photos in your tree, please provide to credit Johnnie Bachusky
www.nobleghosts.com
-
Lovett town site
If you use these 4 photos in your tree, please provide to credit Johnnie Bachusky
www.nobleghosts.com
-
Lovett mine site
If you use these 4 photos in your tree, please provide to credit Johnnie Bachusky
www.nobleghosts.com
-
Wow thanks - it looks very peaceful - I'm surprised to see so many markers - it looks a very tranquil place.
-
Since John was a Prison Warden in the U.K. I wonder if he kept up the profession once he crossed the pond.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
Pembrokeshire Military Headstones 1722 to 2010
-
On John's enlistment papers in Edmonton he says he was a farmer, but in his later records after being invalided home, he declares that he had been a miner for 9 years, and his last place of work was Big Valley Collieries earning $4 a day.
I think I have him entering Canada in 1910, with the intention to travel to Crows Nest, B.C. and his occupation is listed as Miner. He must have been working as a miner in Wales before leaving for Canada.
I don't think the prison warder is the same John Lloyd.
Regards,
Rhosgoch
-
I don't think the prison warder is the same John Lloyd
In that case your thoughts are totally and completely wrong.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
Worldwide Pembroke Militry Headstones 1722 to 2010
-
"In that case your thoughts are totally and completely wrong"
I am open to any suggestions.
What makes you think this is the same John Lloyd?. He gives his place of birth as Carmarthen, Wales. There are a lot of John Lloyd's born in Carmarthenshire.
John was born in 1873 in Eglwyscummin, Carmarthenshire.
Rhosgoch
-
“You state that John was a Prison Warden in the U.K.”
I am interested in your information regarding John Lloyd being a prison Warder, it would be most helpful if you could state the documentation/ Census or the reason why you think he was a prison warder? Any information to verify this? could help.
-
My apologies Oriel.
I have just found John's marriage record which states he is a prison warder. So one mystery solved.
It would have been nice if you had given your source in your reply.
Regards,
Rhosgoch.
-
Thanks very much indeed “Rosgoch” that is very helpful, it’s in the true spirit of real professional genealogy the sharing of information and it’s actual sources.
It was far more constructive.
-
Just thought people might like to know that this summer we had official recognition of JOHN LLOYD as a War Casualty and he is now recorded in the Canadian Book of Remembrance and was remembered in our village for the first time this Remembrance Sunday - 94 years after his death.
This was a group effort between quite a few people and we are very pleased to have finally got John Lloyd the official recognition he deserves.
-
That is wonderful! Thanks for letting us know. :)
Do you mind if I pass this info & photo on to the fellow who provided the Alberta grave & townsite photos? I think he would love to include it on his blog about western Canadian ghost towns.
-
We do not mind at all RedMystic - you have all been most helpful to us.
It is hoped that through the War Graves Commission his grave may be located and who knows, we may even get him a Military Headstone.
It just depends what records regarding burials they can unearth.
It may however be a while before we know anything as they have so many men they are working on.
-
Hi Crunwere,
It has been a while since you updated us on this great story. It has stuck with me since then.
The author / photographer who provided the ghost town pictures of the town & graveyard of Lovett would love to do an expanded story on on John Lloyd, the RootsChat sleuth & the more recent military recognition. He feels quite strongly that it would be picked up by at least one major Alberta publication (perhaps the Edmonton Journal).
The advantage to you is that it would provide you with a professionally documented summary.
Please let me know if I can forward your contact info to him.
All the best.
-
Yes no problem RedMystic - any help locally is much appreciated.
I have sent you a personal message.
Regards
-
These are the two images of John Lloyd that were uncovered by a family member:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wzb79MiTZvc/UXUlNfl3ilI/AAAAAAAAGV4/M-DpFbIOUEU/s1600/Sarah+Jane+,+John+Lloyd+and+Familyk.jpg)
This we believe may be in about 1908 judging by the ages of the children and someone said by the style of the uniform.
His children were born:
Evelyn Mary Lloyd 1902 – 1987
Thomas Lloyd 1903 – 1967
Walter John Lloyd 1905 – 1906
Emma Irene Lloyd 1906 – 1910
Elizabeth Jane Lloyd 1907 – 1907
Winifred Annie Lloyd 1908 – 1910
Hugh James Lloyd 1910 – 1986
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XlCD5pCXhTY/UXUlL8dblUI/AAAAAAAAGVw/xrr6_OedeCo/s1600/John+Lloyd+in+Uniformj.jpg)
This was taken in Whitland, West Wales, UK - in 1916 and we believe when he was on his was to France.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YKLl1I7aYg0/UXUlKAkqjJI/AAAAAAAAGVo/pe3CPNPnmJ4/s1600/John+Lloyd+in+Uniformf.jpg)
This is a close-up of his face. It looks like scars - but where from?
-
Sorry for the large images above but did them that way for everyone to see the detail on the uniforms.
I have also put the pictures on the WW1 thread here - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,644415.0.html (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,644415.0.html)
-
Great photos. :) Have you put a link to this page on the Photo dating board so they can lend their expertise? Those Chatters are amazing! ;)
I'm particularly curious about a date for the first one with the children. If, as his 1916 attestation papers say, he had worked in the Big Collier mines in Alberta for 9 years then he must have travelled back & forth to the UK several times.
Can anyone narrow the date of the photo with the children? ???
What uniform is he in? Could it be a prison warden uniform from before he left for Canada? ??? As far as I can determine, there would have been no reason for him to have a military dress uniform in Alberta in 1908 (6 years before WWI started).
Can any expert Chatter find multiple trips between UK-Canada-UK for John through mid-1900s to 1916? ??? I only found 1 & it said he was returning to Canada.
-
Thanks RedMystic - I have them on the three threads now - here - WW1 and also on the Photo dating one - all linked back to here.
I regard this as the main one now so any discoveries I will post back here anyway.
-
One reply so far:
The 1st. one is later than 1908.
The woman's dress style came in just before WW1 & the dropped waist on the girl's dress around 1915.
The 2nd. picture has this man with a wound stripe so he received his injury while on service.
jim
No idea what the 'wound stripe' is.
-
WOUND STRIPES from wikipedia:
The British Army began awarding a brass "Wound Stripe" in 1916, with approval by King George V. The badge was worn on the left forearm, fastened through the uniform cloth.....Soldiers of the Canadian Expeditionary Force followed suit in the First World War, and issued wound stripes according to British practice
Cannot see it myself?
-
Try the CEF study group (google) first one looks like a Engineers badge the other very difficult.
http://cefresearch.ca/
Theres no wound stripe its just the cuff detail.Wound stripe is a single gold stripe per wound recieved in action so there can be multiple stripes.
Ady
-
John Lloyd's complete military file has been digitized and is now available to view online at Library and Archives Canada. It is 87 pages and I just went through it. There is no indication that he served in either a regular or reserve military unit before his enlistment in the CEF. Also, there is no indication that the scars that are on his face and neck are from time served in the military. They are not indicated on his attestation papers either. Are you sure, these are pictures of John Lloyd. If anyone is interested in reading his complete file, go to the Attestation Papers at LAC and instead of viewing them, click on to the digitized file. The process to digitize is slow but there are several files that have been completed.
-
Thanks for the observation - I thought it was just a cuff too!
Hadn't realised the military file was now digitised but it has been bought by members of his family.
I thought it weird that no mention was made of his scars at all.
The pictures were forwarded to my friend (married to John's grt nephew) by John Lloyd's grandson so we had no reason to believe it was not him - nor actual proof that it was either - not in black and white anyway.
-
Try the CEF study group (google) first one looks like a Engineers badge the other very difficult.
http://cefresearch.ca/
Thanks mmm45 - just registering there now.
-
Been accepted on the CEF forum so have now posted the pictures and queries there and a link back to here if anyone wants the full story.
-
I thought the dress in the 1st photo looked more recent than 1908 but I'm no expert. Jim is pretty dead-on usually!
As for the wound stripe: The British Army began awarding a brass "Wound Stripe" in 1916, with approval by King George V. The badge was worn on the left forearm, fastened through the uniform cloth. Additional badges were granted for subsequent wounds. Soldiers of the Australian Imperial Force, Canadian Expeditionary Force, New Zealand Expeditionary Force, and other Empire troops followed suit in the First World War, and issued wound stripes according to British practice.
-
Well the military discussion is continuing on the DEF forum - here http://www.cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10770 (http://www.cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10770) if anyone wants to follow it.
We are debating now whether the first image is the same man.
Anyway nothing conclusive to report back yet.
-
Just to add my thoughts to the discussion.
The second photo is definitely John, but he looks like a man who has gone through a war, so I think the photo was taken in early 1918 when John was convalescing before returning to Canada. Then everything falls into place. John was "exposed to shellfire" on the Somme in November 1916 which affected the left side of his body and his heart. Those scars are on the left side of his face and neck and could have been caused by the flash of the explosion.
Also in the photo he is holding a stout walking stick essential to a man who found it difficult to walk very far. He also looks thin and frail which would fit with his medical description in hospital.
The first photo is more likely to be another family member, perhaps from his wife's family. It doesn't look like the same man.
Rhosgoch
-
Here's a update for those of you watching this thread. There is a writer in Alberta who specializes in ghost towns of Western Canada. He got special permission to hike in to the ghost town of Lovett (in the bush on mining lease) & will be doing a story on John Lloyd.
He is viewing several ghost towns / cemeteries in the Edson / Nordegg area this weekend. This morning he is off to Lovett. He wrote the following on his FaceBook page earlier today.
Johnnie wrote: "It's 10 a.m. Saturday morning. My wife and I are heading out soon from our hotel in Edson. We meet an archeologist at 11:45 a.m. And go on our ghost town tour. We had to get special permission to do this as these sites are on private corporate property. The weather so far is near perfect. Last night was pouring rain. This morning I got up early to find an old abandoned pioneer cemetery north of Edson. It took a while to find it through rough dense brush but I found it. The scene was very sad. I will post pics Sunday night on NobleGhosts."
-
Thanks for the update - hope he has some luck!!
-
Hi & significant acknowledgement to all who worked on this query. :-*
As long as there is no unexpectedly huge news in the next 12 hours (I know Mayor Ford could do another unbelievably odd back flip ::) :P) there is likely to be a significant article on John Lloyd in a major Canadian publication on Saturday morning.
So much progress has been made with John Lloyd's story that it gives me goose bumps to think about it, but I can't give anything away until the article runs. ;) (Admittedly, I haven't seen the article - I'm just going on what I've been told.)
Can anyone comment on whether or not it would be OK from a copy write perspective for me to scan a current printed article & post it here for Chatters to see (if it appears as anticipated)? ???
-
Wow RedMystic - that is great news - look forward to seeing it.
Not sure what the copyright issues are but personally after something has been printed I have scanned and published stuff from magazines or newspapers - with the source visible and acknowledged.
Though someone may know more about it than me.
-
Hi,
Think the preferred option would be to put a link on to the article.
Sandra
-
Good idea Sandra - but often the articles arn't online anyway.
-
For Canadians who want to pick up a newspaper today, the article about John Lloyd ran in the National Post, page A7. :)
It is a full page with 4 photos. The up-shot is that the cemetery in Lovett is being restored & a memorial to John Lloyd will be installed next summer by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. I don't live in Alberta any more but I have been invited to be there for the installation. I'm not passing up an opportunity like that, so you know where I'll be! ;) ;D
Canadian War Graves Commission is quoted as saying, "It is almost miraculous, certainly marvelous, that after all this time people were able to put the pieces of the puzzle together so we can properly commemorate this guy."
Johnnie Bachuski, writer of the article, says that the article should be part of the searchable on-line articles for the National Post by end of day Sunday so I'll wait to provide a link. If it doesn't become one of their on-line searchable articles, I'll try to figure out how to scan a full newspaper page so that you can see it. :)
-
Thanks for the update RedMystic.
Have googled the site and the article http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/11/09/family-of-forgotten-soldier-finds-him-again-in-cemetery-of-alberta-ghost-town/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/11/09/family-of-forgotten-soldier-finds-him-again-in-cemetery-of-alberta-ghost-town/) is online already - great news as I can print it out to show at our Remembrance Service in the morning.
Had no idea they were intending doing a stone for him as well.
-
Hi,
Just saw this post.
Amazing, and amazing.
To all of you involved....
You are inspiring, you are mentors (for a beginner like me), you make me understand that dogged determination pays off, you make me understand that team work is essential, and most important....
you give a very brave man the honour he so deserves. So amazing.
Cheers :)
DAB
-
Yes definitely agree - its all in the teamwork and sharing information and assistance.
For last Remembrance in November we had managed to get him recognised as an official war casualty - which we thought was a big step.
Then this year we hear on the eve of Remembrance Sunday that he will be getting his own headstone - amazing.
Admittedly not on his actual grave as its unidentified but in the correct little graveyard which is more than any of us could have wished for.
Definitely do not give up - whatever you are searching for.
When we were first trying to just find where 'Lovett/Lovet' was we never thought it would come to anything. Gosh amazed to see it was way back in 2011!
-
John Lloyd's sleuth got me fixated on the cemetery in the ghost town. ::) ;D There are a couple of other WWI soldiers who died there the same year as John - and a number of children. :'(
I'm now trying to connect the few identifiable headstones to family & setting up a virtual Lovettville cemetery on Find A Grave.
If you want to follow the story or help with the search for families of those buried in Lovett, you can check in here.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=667935.0
-
How lovely RedMystic - this story is just growing and growing! Will follow the story's of the other burials with interest.
Update - after the National Post article we have been contacted by someone who submits articles to Ninnau - a newspaper for Welsh ex-pats in North America - we never knew such a thing existed - so the story of John Lloyd may be continuing!
-
How wonderful! :)
Were you able to share others the article at the recent Remembrance Day ceremony as you'd hoped?
-
Oh yes - we had frantic activity on the Saturday night - my friend notifying John Lloyd's grandson who is in his 80s. I think the family was very touched - especially as the news came just in time for our Remembrance day.
The link to the National Post went round everyone and it was a super article. We put it our our village website, Remembrance blog and Facebook pages! It was really nice to have some uplifting news for Remembrance Sunday which is usually very sombre.
For last Remembrance Sunday we had a certificate printed as John Lloyd was recognised by CWGC back in June 2012.
This year we had news of him having a headstone and probably by next year we will have a picture - what a great outcome and proof of what can be done when we all combine forces.
Just chatting to one of his relatives now and we were saying that if that one word 'LOVET' had not been on his gravestone in Wales me might never have found any of this out.
-
Redmystic - any more news on when the John Lloyd headstone will be placed at Lovett?
-
Good morning. I checked about 8 weeks ago & there was no firm date at that time. I'll see if anything has changed & let you know what I find. ;)
-
Thanks - no rush.
I was just putting together some stuff for our WW1 people and wondered if there was any news, thats all.
Cheers
-
Hi Crunware and others watching this thread. I have a news update - FINALLY.
The military headstone for John Lloyd is arriving in Red Deer this week. It will be moved to Lovett & put in place in the cemetery later this month (no specific date as yet - let's hope they don't get another big snow dump). Admittedly, John Lloyd's exact burial place in the Lovett cemetery is unknown (there are only 14 of more than 75 burials that are identifiable), but the recognition will be made in accordance with Commonwealth War Graves standards.
I'm unable to travel back to Alberta to be part of this, but my friend, Johnnie, will attend to document the event & take pictures.
Once the headstone is in place, I'll add a photo of it to the FaG site that I've built for the Lovett Cemetery.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=2519806
It's hard to believe all of this began in July 2011. I'm glad there will be closure before Remembrance Day 2014.
-
Wow - super news - thanks for keeping us posted RedMystic.
Had seen a few pictures earlier from your friend of the clear-up taking place at Lovett but at the time no news on the headstone.
Yes great if its all in place for Remembrance Day.
-
A bit more news. I've just had a confirmation that John Lloyd's headstone installment in Lovett will occur on Oct. 18, 2014. :)
-
Thanks RedMystic - how exciting after all this time.
-
Hello all. Happy 2015.
It occurred to me that I never reported back that the Canadian War Graves headstone was placed in Lovett Cemetery in October 2014. As the abandoned cemetery is very difficult to reach & the firms that regularly install headstones did not want to make the trip up the mountain in a four wheel drive, the stone was installed by the two volunteers who have been restoring the cemetery over the past two years.
John Lloyd's exact burial place in the cemetery is unknown, so the stone was placed near others who are known to have served and who died the same year.
All the best to everyone in 2015.
-
Thanks Redmystic.
We had the pictures emailed to us to put up on display for Remembrance Sunday back in November.
We had been asked not to publish before the story was put in the newspapers so left it completely. Though there was only a small mention of John Lloyd.
Had not heard about them having trouble getting to the graveyard and passing the task over to others.
In uk its hard for us to imagine such remote places!
Once again thanks for your and everyone's help in getting such a positive result to our quest.
-
The article that was prepared for the Canadian national press was dropped at the last minute because the murders of 2 Canadian soldiers pre Remembrance Day shifted press coverage from a memorial of WWI to terrorism matters. :(
I cleared it with the author of the unpublished piece before posting the cemetery photos here. :) They are also now available through Find A Grave Lovett Cemetery and on the mirror of FaG cemetery that I built on Ancestry.
All the Chatters on this search should take a great deal of pride in this outcome. The efforts of many brought it to such remarkable closure. :)
-
Thanks for the explanation Redmystic.
I thought it a little surprising that so little mention was made of him in the article after so much preparation work had gone into it with info from relatives etc - that explains it - a shame but these things happen unfortunately.
Anyhow the main thing was to find the grave, get him officially recognised and get a stone - all of which was accomplished.
What an exciting journey it has been.
-
Hi Crunwere and others who watched this search unfold.
While John Lloyd is buried in a ghost town in the middle of nowhere, I wanted you to know that his resting place is being well maintained. These photos were taken last weekend when my friend went up into the mountains.
He let me know that the Commonwealth Graves Commission was at Lovett last month (September 2017) to inspect the grave site. They do this with every one every two years to ensure each is properly maintained. Pte. John Lloyd's grave site received outstanding marks and will get a great report.
If you look carefully, you will see that my friend is holding a rifle as he inspects the headstone. There were some large grizzly bears in the area that day.
Crunwere, if you'd like higher resolution photos send me a personal message with your email and I'll forward these and a handful of others to you.
-
2nd photo from Oct 2017
-
Oh thank you RedMystic for the lovely update - such a surprise to see the great pictures.
It is a credit to everyone involved that the grave was found and the headstone installed - as well as it being kept tidy now. It would put some graveyards in the UK to shame.
Having to take a gun to a graveyard is something new to us here in Britain!
Thanks for the offer of the pics - I'll message you.
Thanks again for the update.