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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: gemmanoon on Wednesday 03 August 11 05:32 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
I'm making progress down the Smith line of my family tree (only just started) and have found that from the mid 1770s to the early 1800s they seem to have been tenant farmers at Aberhafesp. In particular I have records of various family members living at Gwern Y Gesseg (David Smith) and Thimble Hall (Edward Smith), both of which were sold with the estate at the end of the 19th century.
I was wondering if anyone can tell me if there are any publications about the Aberhafesp estate? I would like to know who the owner was between 1750 - 1830 (I believe the Proctors owned it after that?) and whether there are any records from that period - preferably that I could access online as I live in Canada. Failing that, if anyone could reccommend a general interest book about tenant farming in Wales between 1750 - 1850 I would be very grateful.
Also, does anyone know if the two cottages I mentioned above are still standing, and if so, whether it is possible for someone to send me a photograph of them?
Thanks very much in advance,
Gemma
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Evening,
You have just been in contact with me via email (arakiel) re. this family.
My great-grandfather worked as a gardener at Gregynog Hall, Trgynon, Mont. I have been told that on the first Sunday of every month, the estate records are opened up to the public for viewing. If Aberhafesp Hall is still in affect, they may still have records there; otherwise they may be in private hands just about anywhere. They may also have been deposited with the National Library of Wales (NLW). You can search some holdings of NLW here:
http://isys.llgc.org.uk/
Also worth looking at are:
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/search/
Pay particular attention to the Montgomeryshire Collections (which is grouped into two different publications):
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/
I am sure there is a lot more that could be said, however, I have never come across anyone who really knows what they are talking about with records of the ilk you are interested in.
David
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About February 1830, H A Proctor Esq of Aberhafesp Hall was appointed a New Sheriff
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Hi
Thinble Hall is still there. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0eik/
I've not found the other one though.
Also some papers from the sales, including images :
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/21180/collection/ABERHAFESP+HALL/ *
gnu
*Added
Clicking on Site details at the top brings up a short paragraph which includes:
Memorials to the Morgan family in the church date back to 1701 and suggest that they were the original owners of the house
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Just been looking in my various Montgomeryshire jottings and found a reference to the Jervis family of Aberhafesp Hall late 18th century.
from Bishops Transcripts:
Robert Jervis of Aberhafesp Hall was buried Aberhafesp 11 Apr 1832, age 70
gnu
Added - two more burials:
Madam Abigail Waring of Aberhafesp Hall buried 27 Dec 1753
Mr Samuel Morgan of Aberhafesp Hall buried 29 Oct 1763
possibly they leased the Hall from the Proctors :-\
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On A2A ( http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/default.aspx ) a document held at Shropshire Archives:
1643/70 dated 29 August 1811 refers to Edward Bernard Proctor of Aberhafesp Hall
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On A2A ( http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/default.aspx ) a document held at Shropshire Archives:
1643/70 dated 29 August 1811 refers to Edward Bernard Proctor of Aberhafesp Hall
Here is another via A2A, also at Shrewsbury Archives -- a marriage settlement of the estate in 1782, which serves to sketch in some of the Proctor relationships a generation further back. Looks as though the main house was then let to a Richard Whittington (familiar pairing . . . ). Quite a few tenements are listed, apparently specifying the occupier of each; but the key names for present purposes do not seem to be among them. See:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=166-103_2&cid=1-3-33&kw=Proctor%20Aberha*#1-3-33
I wonder what the earliest refs. are that Gemma has showing the Smiths in occupation of the cottages. Perhaps they were purchased by the Proctors from another land owner. For instance, if one goes to the NLW's ISYS search screen (http://isys.llgc.org.uk/) and enters Proctor /20/ Aberha* as the search term, a hit comes up for a purchase by Henry Proctor of property in Aberhafesp parish from the Powis Castle Estate in 1820-23 (within a file covering a variety of disposals made by the Clive trustees in that period).
More -- about an earlier period -- in next post.
Rol
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As David says, the long-running county historical journal, Montgomeryshire Collections, probably provides the best store of online information about Aberhafesp in the years pre-1800. William Valentine Lloyd's series of articles about the families of the county's successive high sheriffs is a particularly useful source.
The old family who lived there went by the surname Morgan, but they died out in the male line early in the 18th c. Lloyd has some info in Mont. Coll. vol.9 (http://www.archive.org/stream/montycollections09powyuoft#page/98/mode/2up), starting at p.99 (including some anecdotes and the text of MIs in the church). In 1876 the articles up to the sheriff who served in 1639 were re-published as a freestanding book, and Anc***ry.com's databases include a scanned copy -- so, for those with access, that is an alternative way in. (To use that route, enter Montgomeryshire and sheriffs as keywords into the "Card Catalogue" search screen, then on the next page insert Morgan as the surname, and select the resulting hit for p.517.) As mentioned there, the heiress was Abigail Morgan, who married Walter Waring of Owlbury near Bishop's Castle; but it seems the couple had no surviving children.
After suspending his series of articles in Mont. Coll. at vol.9 (the ones separately published), W V Lloyd took up his pen again and produced a further batch, starting in vol.27 (1893) -- and a piece on pp.169-171 of that volume reveals what happened on Abigail Waring's death.
As Gnu posted in Reply 4, citing Aberhafesp BTs, she was buried there on 27 Dec. 1753. Lloyd's vol.27 article (http://www.archive.org/stream/collectionshisto27powyuoft#page/170/mode/2up) states that the joint residuary legatees of both real and personal estate named in her PCC will were:
her cousins, Henry Shere of Lombard Street, London, goldsmith, and Elizabeth Proctor, wife of Mr. Robert Proctor of Botolph Lane, London, merchant.
In fact, the preceding volume of Mont. Coll. prints Abigail's will in full here (http://www.archive.org/stream/collectionshist07unkngoog#page/n240/mode/2up) -- and, as a bonus, a browse through the surrounding pages will take the reader to several of the family's earlier wills proved in the PCC. So no real need to let TNA have their will fees. :)
In summary, it does seem that the later Proctors of Aberhafesp Hall probably had a blood connection with the Morgans -- assuming that they did indeed descend from that marriage between Robert Proctor and Elizabeth. (I see that the Anc***ry.com database of LMA London marriages shows that a Robert Proctor of St Botolph Billingsgate and an Elizabeth Ellis "of the same parish" married by licence at the Bridewell Chapel, on 24 July 1740 -- Ellis being at least a Welsh surname, albeit not Morgan; so a possibility for a female-line cousin of Abigail's.*)
None of which, I fear, has revealed what has become of the main Aberhafesp Hall estate archives. Absent a response on this forum, it might be worth trying to tap local knowledge via an enquiry in the Powys FHS or Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society journals. Beyond that, as A2A has failed to locate much, I am afraid one would have to undertake the time-consuming but often rewarding task of approaching the successors to the firms of solicitors involved, to discover what might still be in their dusty basements.
Rol
* ADDED FOOTNOTE : I have seen some further circumstantial evidence that improves the odds of this being the right marriage. Towards the end of her will Abigail Waring made a number of smaller pecuniary bequests, and among them there is this paired legacy: "unto my cousin Jonathan Ellis of Botolph Lane, London, Esquire, and unto William Proctor, Esq., the sum of £20 apiece to buy them mourning". And among the (very sparse) baptisms at St George's Botolph Lane are those of William Fownds Ellis (30 Jan. 1705/6), Elizabeth Ellis (22 Mar. 1707/8), Jane Ellis (19 May 1709), Francis Ellis (28 July 1710) and Ann Ellis (24 Nov. 1715) -- all children of Jonathan Ellis and Jane his wife. The household seems to have often been living out of town on the south bank of the Thames, because on 18 Sept. 1709 "Jane daught'r of M'r Jonathan Ellis of S't Botolphs Billingsg't. London" was buried at St Alfege's Greenwich; on 22 Feb. 1715/6 Anne may well have been the "Anne d. Jonathan Ellis" who was buried at St Olave's Bermondsey; and then on the following 13 July "Wm Fownes s of Jonathan Ellis March:t from London" was buried at St Nicholas's Deptford. Finally, the father too was buried at St Nicholas's Deptford: "1758 … August … 8 Jonathan Ellis merchant from Botolph lane London". (Unfortunately I have not identified a plausible marriage entry to provide evidence of the maiden name of Jonathan Ellis's wife Jane.)
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I'm glad I tipped you off about this thread, Rol :)
It looks very much as if the Estate passed into the Proctor hands via Abigail.
In addition to the Abigail Waring nee Morgan, I asume that the Mr Samuel Morgan of Ab Hall who I listed as being buried in 1763 was also part of the same Morgan family, although there is ref to Abigail being the last of the line :-\ Maybe a search for his will might be worthwhile.
And nothing on the Jervis family so far :-\ :-\
gnu
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Hello all,
thanks for all of this information, and please accept my apologies for neglecting it. Turns out that immigration was a lot more time consuming than I had first thought!
In answer to Rol's question, you can track the Smith's on the census records living in Thimble Hall, but the earliest record we have for them is from 1776. I do not know the source of the original, as all I have is a photocopy that passed through three other people before reaching me. David64 very kindly translated it for me to read this:
David Smith
The notice you are hereby required to quit and give up the holding and
possession of the farm or tenement called Gwern y Gasseg with the
appurtenances thereof standing in the Parish of Aberhaves at Lady Day
next ensuing only ye house and barn at May next ensuing whereof you have
this nolis
Dated ye 24th day of September 1776
Given you by me Richard Lewis
This is the oldest record we have for this particular branch of the tree. I wondered who Richard Lewis was, whether he was the owner or a steward for example, which is what got me interested in the general life of my ancestors before they moved, en masse, to Liverpool.
Thanks again for all of the leads you have provided me with; when I have time(?) I hope to piece together some more information about their life.
Regards,
Gemma
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Hi Gemma,
The Smith's you are researching are part of my family. 1851 census, Edward b 1801, is living at Bellan Newton Montgomeryshire. I have got as far back as Edward b 1769 and wife Ann b 1774. Do you want to share info?
Regards
Collette nee Smith
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HI Collette,
I would love to! Drop me a private message with your email and I will get back to you. I am in the process of moving house so my records are not to hand right now, but give me a few weeks and we should definitely connect.
Regards,
Gemma
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Hi saw this post today , i don't know whether you are still interested but my husbands sister in law lives there at the hall. It has been made into 4 seperate apartments each one having some of the original features. It wwas first oened by the Morgans then The Proctors, I will tell you more if you are interested still.
regards
Sue