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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: ltaid on Saturday 06 August 11 14:32 BST (UK)
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Hi. Please can anyone help add to my research on John Patterson, mariner, (1861 England Census), born in Scotland about 1825. He married Margaret Robertson 10th February 1954 at Valleyfield, parish of Tongland, Kirkcudbrightshire (this information is stated on the birth certificate of their son Robert Paterson spelled with one 't' born in Girthon parish 6th September 1867)
Captain John Patterson died at sea on 4th April 1868.
Source Information:
Ancestry.com. England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1861-1941
His wife Margaret remarried. Her second husband was named John Fisher (1871 Scotland Census). They lived in the parish of Girthon, Kirkcudbrightshire.
I have not been able to locate a death certificate for Captain John Patterson or find the names of his parents. Can't trace a marriage certificate for John Patterson and Margaret Robertson either. I would be very grateful if anyone could find out his parents' names and where exactly in Scotland John Patterson was born.
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Inscription 19.02 : Girthon Cemetery
In memory of John Fisher who died 24th Sept. 1894 aged 53 years. Also Capt. John Patterson, who died at sea 4th April 1867, aged 44 years. Also Alexander Fisher, eldest son of the above John Fisher, who died at Whithorn, 12th Octr 1897 aged 28 years. Margaret Fisher, his wife, died 19th Feby 1902 aged 85 years. Also William Patterson, eldest son of the above John Patterson, who died at the Western Infirmary, Glasgow 11th Octr.1920, aged 64 years. Interred in Western Necropolis. Also Henry Fisher, youngest son of the above John Fisher, who died at Glasgow, 22nd April 1927, aged 53 years. Also gunner G.A.Fisher, killed in France 18th April 1916, and buried in Bruay Communal Cemetery, aged 31 years.
is this who you are looking for?
akc
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Yes. Thank you. This is the very person. I have not been able to find out where his death would be registered having died at sea. I know he did live in Liverpool for a time. His wife Margaret returned to gatehouse, but I would dearly like to find out more about captain John Patterson, his fate and where we're his roots.
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New to RootsChat, on behalf of a nephew I too have noted Captain John Patterson featured in his family history, and, I appreciate noting some information about him in your posting from 2011, Have you had any success in finding further information about his death at sea, and, his birthplace?
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The postings you see are my only use of roots chat to date. Yesterday I replied through a personal message to you. Not sure how this all works. I have not found out where Captain John Patterson actually died or what boat he was on at the time, but recently discovered that he was born in the parish of Borgue in1827. His Father was called Samuel Patterson an agricultural worker who had come across from Ireland. If you tell me where you are at with your research I may be able to fill in some gaps.
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Hi! Thank you for your response. My research primarily relates to the family 'Fisher' i.e Margaret Patterson (m.s. Robertson) second marriage on the 26th July, 1869, to John Fisher (b. Ireland), however, I have been intrigued by the background to Margaret's 1st husband, John Patterson, and particularly his death.
1. I have visited the Memorial stone in Girthon Cemetery verifying his death at sea on the 4th April, 1867, but like you I have had no success in finding details.
2. I had established details of his marriage from having a copy of his son Robert's birth certificate, but, at present I also have no details as to his place of birth or his parentage; I now note Borgue (birth) and Samuel Patterson (father) and I would be grateful for any additional detail.
3. Margaret Robertson's 2nd marriage in 1869 was just over 2 years after John Patterson's death, and, I have a copy of the 1871 Census recording John and Margaret Fisher living at High Street, Gatehouse-of-Fleet with their 1st born - Alexander Fisher - and with step-children Patterson viz.,
William - 15 - b. Kirkcudbright
John - 13 - b. England
Margaret A - 7 - b. Gatehouse-of-Fleet
Jeanie - 5 - b. "
Robert - 3 - b. "
Incidental to my research of Family 'Fisher' records, I also have some records pertaining to those Pattersons viz.,
1881 Census (LDS) Margaret Patterson
1889 Marriage Margaret Ann Patterson to Robert McDowall
1901 Census " " " with " " and family
1920 Death William Patterson
Please let me know if you would like to have further detail.
5. Being solely interested in Margaret Robertson's marriage to John Patterson, if you are able to provide any additional information on their stay(s) in England, and, details of John's parents, this would help me to 'round-off' the background on Margaret's 1st marriage.
6. As to John Patterson's death, I have considered there may have been a newspaper report on this and a recent enquiry led to Archives[AT]liverpool.gov.uk suggesting the most likely newspaper to have reported this would be the 'Liverpool Mercury' which is on microfilm freely available for personal research during library opening hours. The Archives also has a microfiche index of marine deaths but - again - this can only be viewed self-service on site! However, the Library apparently has a Research Officer who will undertake searches - for a fee - and the contact is robert.hull[AT]liverpool.gov.uk - my interest being minor does not really merit my hiring his professional services!
Once again, thank you.
Email addresses - replace [AT] with @.
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Thank you very much for your information on where I might find details of John Patterson's death. I shall email the named person at the Archive and enquire about the research service. I do have more detailed info about John to pass to you. I will post it on this site as soon as I have the opportunity to type it up.
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John Patterson was born on 29th March 1827 to Samuel Patterson, a servant, of Gategill, in the parish of Borgue and Anne Stott of Gatehouse. His parents were married in Gatehouse in November 1826. Samuel Patterson was born in Ireland around 1800 and Anne Stott in Gatehouse around 1805.
In 1841 the family lived at Conchieton in Borgue parish. Samuel was an agricultural worker. There were 3 children, John (14), Jane (12) and Samuel (10).
By 1851 they were at Boreland of Borgue. Two more children had been born, William (9) and James (8). Samuel Patterson was described as a farm labourer. The 3 older children had all left home.
In 1861 Samuel and Anne were at Muiryard, Borgue parish. A son James (18) was living with them. Interestingly enough James' occupation is given as tailor.
Samuel Patterson died at Tannymass, Borgue parish, in 1869. His parents, presumably left behind in Ireland, were Samuel Patterson, Farmer, and Agnes Wallace.
Anne Stott died in Millburn Street Kirkcudbright in 1876. Her parents were John Stott, labourer and Ruth McBride.
Although Gategill, Muiryard and Tannymass are all in the parish of Borgue, they lie to the north of the main A75 between Gatehouse and Twynholm off the Old Military Road.
John Patterson, born 1827, got his seaman's ticket, no. 272612, at age 18. This was in 1845. He sailed out of Liverpool for several years.
Then it seems he was for a time working on ships sailing out of Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada. By 1852 he was noted as Master of several ships before gaining his official Master Mariner's ticket, no. 11506, in 1854. The address on his ticket is given as 32 Park Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Have found no information as yet about him or the ships he sailed on between 1854 and his death.
He married Margaret Robertson in Borgue parish in 1854. Their first child a daughter died. Their second child William was born in Union Street, Kirkcudbright in 1855.
In 1861 he was living in Park Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool, with wife Margaret and two children, William (5) born Scotland and John (3) born Liverpool.
According to your research, Margaret Robertson, must have been back in Gatehouse by 1864.
I know nothing more about John Patterson except that the date given for his death at sea in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966 is 4th April 1868 (not 1867 as written on the headstone in Gatehouse). Place of death on this calendar is stated as Scotland.
I agree that John's story is very intriguing! Lots to discover yet.
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Thank you very much for the information you provided. I shall take time to review this over a late breakfast! I shall make further comment soonest.
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Thank you for your very informative posting. I fully agree with you that John Patterson's story is very intriguing - as you say 'lots to discover yet'!
1. Liverpool City Council having advised me that a Merchant Navy contact has informed them that most MN records held in Liverpool were destroyed in a fire in the 1970's, and, recommended contact with MCA in Cardiff via seafarersregistry@mcga.gov.uk. Unfortunately, the e-mail address was wrong and in checking this, I found this should read seafarers_registry@mcga.gov.uk, and, I now await their reply to my enquiry regarding John Patterson's death.
2. www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk under 'National Museums Liverpool', publish a 9 page Information Sheet No.43 'Tracing Seafaring Ancestors in the Merchant Navy', and - if you have not already done so - I suggest you may wish to go on-line and review the advice given.
3. Did you find John Patterson listed in the 1851 Census? (I realise he may have been at sea).
4. With regard to the Margaret Patterson (ms. Robertson)/John Fisher marriage, I have -
(a) a copy of their Wedding Certificate for 26 July 1869, in Gatehouse in the Parish of Girthon.
(b) a copy of the 1871 Census recording John and Margaret Fisher living in Gatehouse with 5
Patterson step-children.
(c) a copy of the 1818 Census recording John and Margaret Fisher living in Gatehouse with 5
Fisher children plus one step-son, John Patterson aged 23. working as a Tailor.
(d) a copy of the 1891 Census recording John and Margaret living in Gatehouse with 3 Fisher
children, plus a grandson - who merited further investigation which eventually established a
Patterson/Fisher connection other than Margaret Patterson m.s. Robertson marrying John Fisher!
(e) I have advised you previously that with regard to John and Margaret Patterson's daughter -
Margaret Ann Patterson - I have a copy of her 1889 Marriage Certificate and a copy of the 1901
Census giving details of her family and location.
Should you like to have further details of anything under 4.(a) to (e), please let me know.
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Thanks for information you sent last week. I would be really interested to hear more about the Patterson/Fisher connection you mention at 4 (d):
(d) a copy of the 1891 Census recording John and Margaret living in Gatehouse with 3 Fisher children, plus a grandson - who merited further investigation which eventually established a Patterson/Fisher connection other than Margaret Patterson m.s. Robertson marrying John Fisher!
I emailed Robert Hull in Liverpool more than a week ago. Was puzzled as to why there was no reply coming through and then discovered in my spam mail yesterday that the email had failed to send. Will try again.
In 1851 sixteen year old Margaret Patterson, was working for a family named Cunningham living at Bellevue, in the middle of Twynholm village.
I have found out that John Patterson was indeed at sea at the time of the 1851 census which was taken on the 30th March of that year. He was a serving seaman on a ship called 'Kew' out of Liverpool between July 1850 and April 1851 and as 2nd Mate on same ship between April 1851 and Jan 1852. Previous to that he had worked on Hope, Bilston, Nith and again Kew as an apprentice seaman between June 1845 and April 1850, again all sailing out of Liverpool.
I have searched to no avail to find info on these ships (what cargo they carried to which places).
However John Patterson then worked from 1852 until the end of 1854 out of Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada, first as a Mate and then Master of W B Dean, Robert Cottle and Asteria. Appears that the crews of these vessels were sailing brand new ships built on Prince Edward Island to their owners. One was sailed to Newfoundland, another to Aberdeen and the third to Southampton. Then, as I said previously, his career as Master Mariner is a mystery.
I have been chipping away over the years and gradually little things have been coming to light but haven't yet found the pot of gold. Your posts on roots chat have rekindled my desire to keep digging and delving! Thank you for your interest.
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If you have his DOB and his Masters certificate number 11506 (The Mercantile Navy list confirms there was a person named John Patterson with this Certificate number)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nOkNAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22mercantile%20navy%20list%22&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false Page 147
Therefore it would be a relatively simple task to find details of the ships he sailed on since obtaining his Mates certificate which should be recorded in Lloyd's Captains Register obtainable from London Metropolitan Archives https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/visitor-information/Pages/enquiry-service.aspx
There are also records at TNA Kew piece BT122/12 Recorded Service: 1851 - 1870 Certificate Numbers: 10000 - 11999 For a number of reasons. Best searched in person.
NMM Greenwich has some certificates together with Ancestry, some UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927
I would try Ancestry first. Then LMA.
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Thank you very much for the information you posted today. I have started lines of enquiry as suggested. However I fear answers, if they are to be found, will take some time to arrive.
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Attn: Itaid - having noted good advice from 'Seaweed' is being followed up by you, I do hope you will soon find satisfactory detail of the circumstances of Captain John Patterson's death at sea.
On my part, I have downloaded a copy of a 16 page A4 "Maritime & Coastguard Agency - Information Leaflet/Historical Records" bearing a Ref. No. MSF 5323 REV 04/14", which is a detailed guide to the records held at the Registry of Shipping and Seamen (RSS), and, held elsewhere. If you do not already have a copy of this, I suggest you go on line and download one. For example, the advice given on page 3 is interesting in respect of Registers of Merchant Seamen's Services which are listed as held by the National Archives. Having now contacted the National Archives, I have learned that those Registers may now be accessed through the 'Find my Past' website; I shall give this a try!
I am finding existing sources of quoting Captain John Patterson's date of death rather confusing viz.,
a) the Memorial Stone in Girthon Cemetery shows date of death at sea as 4th April, 1867, aged 44 (ie. born 1823)
b) the 1841 Census gives his birth date as 1827 (age 14)
c) the England & Wales National Probate Calendar (1858-1966) gives his date of death as 4th April, 1868 - and place of death as Scotland? ?
I shall report on any positive result I may get from 'Find my Past'. Regarding the Fisher/Patterson connection, my information may be considered as personal/private/confidential and posting this for others to see should preferably not be done. I shall enquire if there is a way in which it may be transmitted direct to you - for your information only!
Thank you.
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Thank you for this further information. It is very much appreciated.
The answer to my enquiry at the National Archives may not be quick in coming as I suspect it will be placed in a 'queue'. Will pass on information as an when there is a development.
There is a way to send a personal message. That was the method through which I tried to make my first contact with you and then I also posted it publically.
Just found this advice through Googling, 'New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility'.
It must now be available to both of us.
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Hello ltaid and old85galstonian,
Yes now you have both made over 3 post you can use both access the pm function.
Regards
Sarah
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Thank you Sarah.
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attn: Itaid
Advice provided in the Maritime & Coastguard Agency's Information leaflet, suggested -
1. the General Register Office might supply a Death Certificate
2. National Archives might provide -
(a) Lloyds Captains Register - under BT139
(b) 'Seaman's Pouch' - on-line - giving details under BT372
(c) search Index of Apprentices at BT150
(d) Register of Wages & Effects of Deceased Seamen at BT153 (indexed at BT154)
I have not yet looked into item 1, and results for item 2 were -
(a) by entering 'Captain' or 'John' or 'Patterson' or 'Ticket No.11506'. for the period 1800 to 1899, no results were found!
(b) BT372 only covers the period 1913 to 1972
(c) BT150 (Apprentice Names K to Z cannot be searched on-line but they will do a page check for £8.40 !! to determine if it is possible to make a copy - subject to a further fee!
(d) National Archives referred me to 'Find my Past' where I commenced a search for John Patterson b. 1827 and died ca. 1867 or 1868. and, after a time I was provided with a list of 14 possibles, none of whom I could find had positive connection with our Captain John Patterson! Three 'Pattersons' were listed- the others were all variations of that surname, and, of those three one forename was Jn and the others were Jno. Of the fourteen, only one birth-date was shown viz., 1827 but for a John Peterson who died in 1865. No locations were listed.
I do hope you may meet with more success! I shall for now 'rest on my oars'!
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I have three certificates belonging to John Patterson. One is his Master Mariner certificate and the other two are his initiation certificates into Royal Arch Chapter in Calcutta.
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I see that his son William was born on 12 November 1855 in Kirkcudbright. Scottish 1855 birth certificates contain extra information not collected in any other year. In particular it should confirm John Pat(t)erson's age and birthplace, if you need such confirmation.
by entering 'Captain' or 'John' or 'Patterson' or 'Ticket No.11506'. for the period 1800 to 1899, no results were found!
Possibly a silly question, but did you try Paterson instead of Patterson?