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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: findem on Wednesday 21 September 11 01:01 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Has anyone actually found the baptisms of the following three children who are said to be born/baptised in Coggeshall and the children of my ancestors Michael and Jane Dalton?
Abraham c1805.
Isaac c1806.
Jacob c1809.
Three people on GR have them in their tree as children of Michael and Jane, I have searched for them in the St Peter ad Vincular Coggeshall online PRs but not found them. The three children appear in Censuses (as adults) and in 1851 Jacob was living next door to Michael & Jane. Fortunately none of the three are my ancestor.
The facts as I know them are that Michael and Jane married in 1795 at Coggeshall, they baptised four children between 1797 and 1804, Rebeckah, Michael, Jane and another Michael.
It's not that I doubt the parentage of the children but would like to see or find proof, it is possible I suppose they could be in the Coggeshall Congregational registers but on my trips to the UK (after seeing those three children on GR) I didn't get round to checking those registers, too busy tracking down ancestors.
Regards.
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hi findem.
i don,t know if the following helps hinders or you may already have the detail but here goes ;D .
all the following records are for the INDEPENDENT MEETING HOUSE stoneham street great coggeshall .
emma daltond born 24th aug1826 bpt 28oct 1827 father abraham mother sarah
harriet dalton b 3 april 1829 bpt 18 oct 1829 father abraham mother sarah
rebekah dalton b 6 march 1831 bpt 23 oct 1831 father abraham mother sarah
myra dalton b 10 dec 1833 bpt 13 april 1834 father abraham mother sarah
abraham dalton b 15 july 1836 bpt 19 march 1837
mary ann dalton b 22 feb 1830 bpt 23 oct 1830 father isaac mother mary
isaac horatio dalton b 1 july 1832 bpt 9 sept 1832 father isaac mother mary
isaac dalton died 25 july 1834 buried 27 july1834 aged 2 yrs father isaac mother mary
mary ann dalton died 21 july 1834 buried 27 july 1834 aged 4 yrs 5 months father isaac mother mary
isaac boltwood dalton b 16 june 1834 bpt 15 march 1834 father isaac mother mary
michael dalton b 24 dec 1834 bpt 15 march 1835 father jacob mother rachel
found these in the non conformist records on the genealogist site , i presume when you say you,ve looked at all pr,s you mean those for coggeshall on the seax site ?, if not there are a lot of the early years for ST PETERS coggeshall online , hope this may be of help if only to kick start your request for help .
regards
trevor
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Hi t mo,
I didn't have those details so thanks for it, initially the only mention I heard of those three children I mentioned in my previous post was via people who had them in their tree, later on I saw them as adults in censuses. I have yet to see a tree which has any of those three with full dates and parents attached, I have contacted some owners to see if they can flesh out the c1805/6/9 but the answer comes back along the lines of, no, I got those three from so and so.
I have them and an associated family, Anthony, on my list for searching when the later date PRs of St Peter ad Vincular and the non com registers are online. Donkey's years ago on a visit to the UK, I did have a look in one non com register but having now mislaid the notes I'm not sure which lot it belonged to, I do remember the writing though which was atrocious.
Thanks again for the info I'll make a note of it.
Regards.
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Hi t mo,
I forgot to mention that I have just recently finished trawling through all the online St Peter's PRs looking for a Jane Anthony c 1758 and anything else related to my Coggeshall lines, I'm pretty sure Jane will be in a non com but perhaps St Peter ;D
Regards
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Hi t mo,
Reading your post again something just clicked in, for some obscure reason I didn't sleep well last night so I think my brain is on delayed action.
I have a Coggeshall ancestor I've been searching for over the years by the name Joseph Harris who in Censuses claims he was born in Lt Coggeshall c1806, he's not to be found in St Peters nor some surrounding parishes. At various times my Coggeshall Harris families lived in Stonehaven Street, noting that your info came from the Independent Meeting House Stonehaven Street, I'm thinking his family may have dropped St Peters for the Independent. After all it would be 'just down the road' and I'm told that Coggeshall became a hot bed of non conformism.
So again thanks for that info and for kick starting my brain. ;D
Regards.
PS I have searched the later years Coggeshall PRs but it was many years ago at the ERO on one of my many visits to the UK and of course good old Essex, this was in my early days of research so I am looking forward to revisiting those later PRs, just in case!!
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hi findem
i,ve had alook in non conformist records and all i can find is the following for the GREAT STONEHAM STREET INDEPENDANT CHAPEL
jane anthony bpt 30 april 1758 father abraham .
also looked for anything on joseph harris but not any joy i,m afraid , i did find this though for the REGISTER of BIRTHS AND BAPTISMS for the INDEPENDANT CONGREGATIONAL CHAPEL NAYLAND 1758-1837
abraham harris born 20 jan 1786 baptised 23 march 1786 father william mother elizabeth .
hope this doesn,t muddy the waters but just thought it might be worth putting down , have you seen any possible links to other towns or villages in the coggeshall area for any of your ancestors .
feel free to ask for look ups i,m more than willing to help .
regards
trevor
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Hi t mo,
Thanks a heap for Jane Anthony, she is the one I've been dying to find, Jane married Michael Dalton, Michael and Jane are my 4 X gt grandparents.
Thanks for the offer of a search, I would be grateful if you could check the same register between Jane's parent's marriage 9 Dec 1754 and Jane's baptism 30 April 1758 , in case there are other children baptised between those dates.
Could you also check the same register for Charlot 22 Sep 1762, this is just to ascertain if Jane's siblings were baptised at the same Chapel. I found them many years ago and being inexperienced I only noted their baptism place, Coggeshall, so now I don't know the chapel's name. I do recall they were on a non com film at the ERO and that the writing was cramped and difficult in places to decipher, nearly put me off research ;D
The other children (surname spelt as Antiney) are:
Charlot 22 Sep 1762.
Abraham & Sarah 17 Nov 1767.
Isaac & Jacob 22 Jan 1779.
Regards & thanks.
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hi findem .
went back to the genealogist , non conformist records and by just using ANTHONY as a search it came up with the following list which is nearly as long as war and peace ;D but never mind hope you find what your looking for .
monthly meeting at coggeshall
hannah anthony born feb 1657 father john , no other info with record
monthly meeting of colchester
john anthony wed ann brown 24 feb 1668 groom from coggeshall bride from colchester
monthly meeting coggeshall
isaac anthony born 27 nov 1669 father john mother ann
register of marriages quarterly meeting of essex
isaac stacy wed ann anthony 11 april 1681 both of gt coggeshall grooms occ wool comber
monthly meeting at coggeshall
isaac anthony burial 12 feb 1692 father isaac mother martha
quarterly meeting of essex
isaac anthony wed martha ludgate 28 april 1692 coggeshall magna grooms father john
monthly meeting coggeshall
isaac anthony born 22 feb 1693 father isaac mother martha
elizabeth anthony born 16 may 1694 father isaac mother martha
ann anthony born 1 march 1696 father isaac mother martha
martha anthony born 29 dec 1700 father isaac mother martha
mary anthony born 21 july 1702 father isaac mother martha ?
mary anthony born 17 march 1703 father isaac mother martha ?
mary anthony died 23 oct 1703 father isaac mother martha
martha anthony died 8 sept 1714 husband isaac
great stoneham street independant chapel
william anthony bpt 27 dec 1770 father william mother eliza
ann anthony born 16 march 1773 bpt 26 jan 1776 father william mother eliza
sarah anthony born 3 nov 1775 bpt 26 jan 1776 father william mother eliza
isaac anthony born 9 sep 1775 bpt 22 jan 1779 father abram mother rebecca
jacob anthony born 30 aug 1776 bpt 22 jan 1779 father abram mother rebecca
lydia anthony born 20 nov 1778 bpt 22 jan 1779 father william mother eliza
mary anthony born 21 aug 1795 bpt 21 feb 1799 father william mother mary
mary anthony born 31 aug 1813 bpt 4 nov 1813 father jacob mother hannah
hannah anthony born 13 may 1817 bpt 21 july 1819 father jacob mother hannah
jacob anthony born 8 feb 1819 bpt 21 july 1819 father jacob mother hannah
independant meeting house coggeshall
sarah anthony died aug 1819 husband / father isaac ?
independant congregation at gt stoneham street coggeshall
abraham anthony born 8 june 1819 bpt 8 aug 1819 father isaac mother sarah
independant congregation gt stoneham street
william anthony born 21 july 1794 bpt 10 sep 1820 father william mother mary
independant meeting house
abraham anthony born 9 jan 1821 bpt 13 sep 1821 father jacob mother hannah fathers occ shoemaker
rhoda grange anthony born 16 june 1822 bpt 11 aug 1822 father isaac mother rhoda fathers occ shoemaker
abraham anthony born 24 aug 1823 bpt 27 mar 1825 father isaac mother rhoda
elizabeth anthony born 10 april 1825 bpt 28 may 1826 father isaac mother rhoda
jacob anthony born 13 aug 1826 bpt 15 april 1827 father isaac mother rhoda
william anthony born 13 march 1828 bpt 18 may 1828 father isaac mother rhoda
jacb anthony died 27 june 1829 burial 2 july 1829 age 2.75
jacob anthony died 15 feb 1830 burial 19 feb 1830 age 6 months
eliza ann anthony died 15 dec 1831 burial 21 dec 1831 age 6
rhoda anthony died 12 aug 1833 burial 18 aug 1833 age 38
isaac anthony died 18 aug 1834 burial 24 aug 1834 age 17
using the spelling antiney all that came up for essex was what you already have births and bpt for gtstoneham street independant chapel
charlotte antiney bpt 22 sep 1762 father abram
where i,ve ? those 2 i can,t work out if one is wrong or a mistranscription but it doesn,t make sense to me .
hope this helps but either way it,ll keep you off the streets for a while ;D.
regards trevor
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Hi t mo,
Many thanks for your time and effort spent on my behalf, I am very grateful.
Regarding the two Mary's you've question-marked, daughters of Isaac and Martha Anthony, the time line goes:
21 Jul 1702 Mary born.
23 Oct 1703 Mary died.
17 Mar 1703 Mary born.
Bearing in mind that up until 1725 the first day of the new year was the 25th of March, so the 17th of March 1703 is approx 5 months after October 1703. Does that clarify matters or is there something I'm missing?
Later I'll print out all the list and see where they fit into the Anthony families I have.
I had hoped you would find an Abraham Anthony born somewhere between 1754 and 1758, Jane's parents, Abraham and Rebekah are said to have married in 1754 in St Peter ad Vincular, as soon as the later year Coggeshall PRs come on line I'll verify that marriage and search for Abraham's baptism in St Peter ad Vincula registers 1754 to 1758.
Perhaps Abraham and Rebekah didn't go over to the Non Coms until after Abraham was born and baptised. I found in St Peter's register the baptism on 2 Jul 1790 of Jane daughter of Abraham and Susannah Anthony, Jane baptised in 1758 was the only other Jane Anthony found in St Peter's registers, it leads me to believe that the 1790 Jane was named after an aunt Jane 1758 and therefore Jane 1758 had a brother Abraham who married a Susannah.
Regards
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Hi findem. I know it is a long time since you have posted this but I am interested to know how much you have found out about the Dalton line in Coggeshall. My wife is a direct descendant of the Daltons in Coggeshall. We visited there 10 years ago and spoke to a local historian who mentioned as I recall that they were Mormons. The last Dalton lived there until around 2000, and was the village blacksmith so we just missed being able to speak with them.
It has been so long as I started researching my own family history and we started our own family. However we still live in Essex so if there is anywhere you wish me to go to look up I would be happy to help.
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Hi Boblefrog,
Nice to hear from you.
I have no knowledge of any Mormon Daltons, all those I have knowledge of were C of E or Anglican as they are called now.
I descend from Eliza Dalton who was born in Coggeshall in 1829, Eliza was the daughter of Michael Dalton and Frances Potter, Eliza married Joseph Harris at Coggeshall in 1853. Joseph and Eliza are my great grandparents on my maternal line, their daughter Annie Harris is my maternal grandmother.
Michael Dalton, husband of Frances Potter, was born in 1804 at Coggeshall, Michael was a Blacksmith by trade.
Michael's father, was also Michael and was born in 1765 Gt Ellingham Norfolk and married Jane Anthony a widow in 1796 at Coggeshall, he was also a Blacksmith.
In a Census one of the two above Michael Daltons was a Master Blacksmith, I've just noticed that in my records I fail to note which one was the Master Blacksmith, I have a hunch it might be the Michael who married Jane Anthony, I'll have to check it out.
I go back a further two generations of Daltons in Norfolk, the earliest is Benjamin Dolton (Dalton) circa 1691 and his wife Anne Cork(e)
Followed by his son, yet another Michael Dalton born in 1732 at North Walsham, Norfolk and his wife Mary Beales, they are the parents of the Michael Dalton born 1765 in Gt Ellingham, Norfolk.
I have no knowledge of the occupations of Benjamin Dolton and Michael Dalton (1732), I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them were a Blacksmith.
All the Daltons I've mentioned above were baptised C of E, except Benjamin of course because I've been unable to find his birth or baptism but I strongly suspect he would have been baptised C of E.
In more modern times I suppose it's possible one or more Daltons might have converted to the church of latter day saints (Mormon) faith but I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest that is the case.
In a nutshell my Dalton line goes:-
Benjamin Dolton c 1691.
Michael Dalton 1732 North Walsham, Norfolk.
Michael Dalton 1765 Gt Ellingham, Norfolk.
Michael Dalton 1804 Coggeshall.
Eliza Dalton 1829 Coggeshall.
I would be very interested to learn where your wife's Dalton line connects to the Coggeshall Daltons.
If you have any questions fire away.
If you haven't already found the following site you, or anyone with Coggeshall ancestors, will find it useful, amongst other things they have transcripts of Coggeshall parish burial and Marriage registers, unfortunately very little on baptisms.
http://coggeshallmuseum.org.uk/familyresearchers1.htm
Regards,
PS just done a check, the Master Blacksmith is the Michael Dalton born 1765 in Gt Ellingham, thr husband of Jane Anthony.
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Hi thanks for the reply,
Firstly my apologies I'm getting confused with the mormons with another branch.
My understanding is that Michael Dalton and Jane Anthony had at least five children.
Isaac Dalton: Married Mary Boltwood
Jacob Dalton: Married to Rachel. He was the innkeeper at Black Horse Inn
Rebecca Dalton: Married became Rebecca Young
Michael Dalton: I had no information on him other than listed as a Shoe Smith
And Abraham Dalton: Married to Sarah. My wife's family descend from Abraham through his son and Grandson both called Abraham.
As Dalton was the family name this was the very first line that we investigated back in 2006. As such, unfortunately my notes are not particularly comprehensive. One thing I do remember is how many of them were blacksmiths. This is something that seems to be carried through to her family today. My wife's Brother, Father and Grandfather all work or worked on the railways. They all also like repairing and rebuilding cars. I could imagine them being blacksmiths if they were alive 150 years ago. I believe this is a Dalton trait!
Anyway I digress, my wife has little interest in her family tree. However as we have 3 children now I wish to revisit her family lines on their behalf.
I shall look again to get some facts and details down for Abrahams lineage. Perhaps then I can give you some more information.
Thanks
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Hi,
With regard to the children of Michael Dalton and his wife Jane Anthony, when I researched that family many years ago I didn't spot the children named Isaac and Abraham, from the site I mentioned in my previous post I did find the marriage for those two children.
Do you have the births or baptisms for Isaac and Abraham?
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Hi,
Having checked some of my notes I've found a tad more info to add to that in my last post.
Although I haven't been able to find the births or baptism of three Dalton children, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who are held by some to be children of Michael Dalton and his wife Jane Anthony, I have a little more info on them.
Another Dalton researcher gave me the following info.
The 2nd marriage of Isaac was to Sarah Frances Boltwood 28 April 1840 at Stepney, St Dunstan, apparently the marriage entry named his father as Michael Dalton, Blacksmith.
Isaac's third marriage was to Amy Crow 23 Jul 1843 at Shoreditch, St John the Baptist, that marriage entry also said to have named his father as Michael Dalton, Blacksmith.
The children I found are;-
Rebecca born 13 Sep 1797.
Michael born 30 Aug 1799, buried 1 Mar 1800.
Jane born 13 Oct 1802.
Michael born 15 Jan 1804.
All births and the burial at Coggeshall.
I'd like to make it clear that I'm not disputing that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob belong to Michael Dalton and his wife Jane Anthony, merely that I have not seen birth or baptism entries for them. If anyone out there has seen the births/baptisms baptisms I'd be very grateful to be advised of them.
Regards.
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Hi again,
Sorry I've been away at the weekend and a little sidetracked. I did go into Coggeshall on Friday to try to jog my memory as much as anything else. I plan to go to the museum there but it is only open Sunday afternoons.
I still haven't found any baptisms on these three which leads me to believe one of the following;
- That those records for some reason were not transcribed. I want to look at the originals in the ERO for the Independent Church in Stoneham Street.
- That they were baptised in another church. Walking around coggeshall it is very clear there were many different churches within a small distance of one another. All of Michael Dalton Snr and Jnr, Abraham and Jacob lived close by to these. I would say it is unlikely given that almost all other records point to the Independent Church but I would like to check it out to be sure.
-They were not baptised. This could be for several reasons. Either they were illegitimate children, likely from the elder siblings or possibly from Michael having a relationship with someone else and being forced to keep the children. Given there are three of them these would seem unlikely. Or the family chose not to baptise them. This has been known to happen but it would appear strange for them to stop suddenly and they are the three youngest children.
- The only other reason I can think of is that for some reason they were baptised and it wasn't recorded. I guess it could happen but unlike big cities like London there are not so many baptisms and it would be terrible luck to miss three!
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that they are Michael's sons. Apart from the birth dates which seem to run on from the children baptised, and the marriage certificates you described, their census records show them living next door to each other. Abraham and Michael Jnr in back lane 1841 and Jacob and Michael Snr in 1851. I also believe there was one of Isaacs children living with Michael Dalton Snr, I will check this tonight.
As I say I am still updating my records and haven't yet found the "smoking gun" but hopefully a trip to the ERO and coggeshall museum might turn up something.
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It's certainly a mystery, I'm also wondering if another reason for not finding the births or baptisms is perhaps Michael and Jane moved to another village for a short period of years after say 1804, moving back to Coggeshall a few years later, with the other three children baptised in that other village. Michael being a master blacksmith would most likely not be bonded to an employer and so be free to move.
I feel that if ever those three baptisms are found it will be by chance, on the whole though I agree with you that it's more likely to be either that they weren't baptised or somehow the baptisms failed to be recorded, although it's stretches the imagination that all three baptisms failed to be recorded.
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Coggeshall Parish Records/SEAX
Isaac Dalton married Mary Boltwood 21 October 1828 witness Robert Young (the one who married Rebecca Dalton?)
Abraham Dalton married Sarah French 2 February 1826 witness Henry Potter and Rebecca Young (nee Dalton?)
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Yes Sarah French, thanks amondg. I'd seen that and not written it down. Interestingly we have the families of French, Crow and the site of the Black Horse Inn (Jacob renamed it The Locomotive). Is there a connection to the Coggeshall gang I wonder? ???
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Thanks amondg for those two marriages, I already had them noted and correctly but I was pleased to be able to do a double check, just in case! ;D
PS In my records I show Rebeckah/Rebecca Dalton marrying Robert Young 27 Oct 1819, I recall that I couldn't find anything to disprove that the Rebecca Dalton daughter of Michael and Jane wasn't the same Rebecca Dalton who married Robert Young.
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Neither could I especially since Robert signed at Isaac's wedding and Rebecca signed at Abraham's, close relatives usually are witnesses.
I have Rebekah born 13 September 1797 and baptized on 1 October 1797.
Michael Dalton married Jane Howard a widow 11 October 1796, I assume the research has her maiden name as Anthony.
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My research shows Rebecca baptised on the 2nd of October but of course I may be wrong, the other dates you mention in your last post match mine.
Jane Anthony's second marriage was interesting, I found it in my early days of researching, from memory the marriage banns have her as Jane Anthony and the marriage entry as Jane Howard, or it could be vice versa. Over the years some of my data has been moved through several databases and some of the notes lost and Jane's marriage a victim, looks like I'll have to recheck that some time. I do show her as Jane Anthony but note her first marriage to James Howard 31 Oct 1788 at Coggeshall, I also have noted a child of the first marriage Samuel Howard born 24 Mar 1789 and baptised 23 Apr 1789 at Coggeshall.
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Yesterday was the Coggeshall transcription. Looked at the original on Seax, there is a piece of tape on the edge of the page that obscures the date, however the first 3 are bracketed together for the 1st, then the next two are bracketed so presumably meaning the 2nd, for the baptism of Rebekah Dalton.
The marriage of James Howard to Jane Anthony was on 31 October 1788, banns read 5,12,19 October
number 143 in register. No witnesses the rector used the banns register to record the marriage above the banns dates.
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Hi amondg,
Your mention of that piece tape has jogged my memory, now I remember that I contacted the Archivist section of the ERO and requested a check of Rebeckah's baptism date for and they stated it was the 2nd of Oct 1797. I have submitted quite a few similar requests to the Archivists and each time they have come up trumps for me, the staff at the ERO are certainly a great bunch of people.
Now that I've remembered it I'd better add that to my family group sheet, I would no doubt have the email with the Archivist's verdict but since it was quite a while back it's probably on my previous PC which fortunately I still have and in working condition.
Thanks for jogging my memory these days it needs some jogging occasionally, it been a horrific year for me, since the 18th of January I've had:-
A cancer cut out of my gum and replaced with a piece from my forearm.
Came out of Hospital on the 25th of January with what I now now was the start of an Acute Renal Failure.
Admitted to the Hospital Emergency on the 3rd of February with my Kidneys down to 15% functioning, apparently whilst in Hospital for the Cancer my Prostrates further enlarged to block my Bladder so I had to have a Catheter fitted.
That was followed with 30 Radio Therapies over 6 weeks.
So because of all the above, the resulting sleep deprivation and losing 12 Kilos which I could ill afford to lose I'm quite a bit weakened, both my short and long time memory are still good but at the moment they sometimes need a jog. It's taken quite a while for me to get back motivation for Family Research and finding out where I left off prior to the 18th of January
However I am improving day by day, I'm just very grateful that I was pretty fit for my age prior to hospitalization.
Not quite finished with Hospital yet, on the 24th of this month I have chosen to go back in to have my prostrates shaved by laser with the aim of getting rid of this blankety blank catheter and bags.
Just before last Xmas I had planned to take out a sub to SEAX around February/ March time but haven't yet felt I could do it justice, hopefully it won't be too long before I'm firmly back in the saddle.