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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: patDEN on Sunday 02 October 11 04:46 BST (UK)
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The Rev Joseph [my g g grandfather] has been my brick wall for years... and by default, so too, has his son, my g grandfather, Thomas William Ashton b ~ 1856 Bradford/Leeds Yorkshire [according to Australian documentation]. Yesterday I discovered a marriage notice for Thomas William in an 1886 Australian newspaper [New South Wales] which stated that Thomas was the eldest son of the Rev Joseph Ashton of Horton House, Horton. Bradford, Yorkshire England. While family lore had it that Joseph Ashton was a Minister, one side of the family said he was a Presbyterian Minister and another side believed he was C of E. I am hoping someone will be able to confirm that if he was residing in Horton House in 1886, he would've been a C of E Minister?
It would appear that Joseph and his son were somewhat estranged and it is believed that when Thomas did not 'get on' with his new step-mother he left the UK and headed for Australia ~ 1884/5. Some family believe he joined the Merchant Navy and that is how he ended up in Australia. The only other piece of information I have regarding the Rev Joseph is a copy of a letter he wrote to my grandmother's father inquiring if his son was still alive. This letter was dated 1 Dec 1891 with instructions to address the reply to "Rev Joseph Ashton C/- Mr Robert Wilcock, 19 Ward St Drewry Lane, Derby. "
I do not know the name of Thomas William Ashton's mother [believed to be the first wife of Joseph] with any degree of certainty but the name of Margaret Frankland has been offered by some family members.
Any information or direction given for research in the UK regarding this family would be much appreciated.
Regards
patDEN in Western Australia
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Hi and welcome to rootschat
Two useful sites for you to look at will be www.freebmd.org.uk and www.familysearch.org The 1881 census is free to search on the latter so you can see if you can trace Joseph on that. His occupation will show if he is a C of E minister with luck. Crockford directory of Clergy is another source. He does not appear in my copy of the 1865 one. If Thomas did not emigrate until 1884 he should be there somewhere in 1881 too. What was his occupation? What does his death certificate say about his parents?
Regards
Andrea
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www.genuki.org.uk shows this in an 1822 listing of places within the parish of Bradford:
"GREAT HORTON, in the parish of Bradford, Morley-division of Agbrigg and Morley, liberty of Pontefract; (Horton House, the seat of Mrs. Sharpe) 2 miles SW. of Bradford, 6½ from Halifax. Pop. 7,192. The Church is a perpetual curacy, in the deanry of Pontefract, value, ~£44. Patron, the Vicar of Bradford."
Also, if Joseph was CofE he would have gone to either Oxford or Cambridge University?
Maybe a search of alumni?
This is Robert Wilcock in 1891:
Reference RG12, Piece 2729, Folio 103, Page 25
19 Ward Street, St Werburgh, Derby
Wilcock, Robert Head M 25 Railway Clerk b Liverpool, Lancashire
Wilcock, Martha Emily Wife F 25 b Derby
Wilcock, Bruce Norman Son M 6 Scholar b Derby
Wilcock, Garnet William Son M 4 b Derby
Wilcock, Elsie May Daughter F 4 months b Derby
I wonder what the connection is between this family and Joseph?
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Many thanks to Andrea & K Garrad for these quick replies. I have just tried to find the Rev Joseph on the 1881 Census, along with his son, Thomas William - but no luck in any positive identifications. According to early Australian documents, Thomas William was an "Engineer". Perhaps this ties in with the Merchant Navy bit?
Armed with the info from the 1891 [thanks for this], I managed to find Robert Wilcock unmarried on the 1881 and then located his marriage on the freeBMD site to Martha Emily Heath in Dec Qtr 1884 District of Derby. I was, of course, hoping that Martha Emily would have the surname of Ashton ... but no.
Thomas William's death certificate states that his father is the Rev Joseph Ashton and that he is a Minister of Religion [no denomination given] and that his mother's name is Unknown Frankland. Unfortunately, the information on Thomas William's Marriage Certificate is scant and it is not until he is registering the births of his children that his own place of Birth is mentioned - Bradford in one instance and Leeds in another. Thomas William died 21 Jul 1927 aged 70 years. I have conducted searches of Bradford 1850-1860 looking for Thomas' birth registration, but again. no luck.
I shall continue to follow the suggestions mentioned regarding the Rev ... searching Alumni and the Crockford directory.
Again, many thanks for your time ... much appreciated
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Hi patDEN
Not sure but thought this worth a mention ..................... if you trace Robert Wilcock back to 1871 RG10 4471 6 6 there is Robert with the rest of his family and also included amongst the family is a William Wilcock b 1856 Great Horton Yorkshire he is 15 leaving an 8 yr age gap between him and Alice so I began to wonder whether William was from a first marriage for Joseph, so looking for Joseph and William I came across this 1861 RG9 2696 55 45 - Joseph Head wid 26 Lancs Lancaster - Path Att plus his son William 5 Bradford Yorkshire ........ so I went onto to look for a marriage for Joseph around about the time that William was born and found:-
Free bmd Marriage Sept 1854 Dist Bradford Yorks Vol 9b Pg6 and on the same page is Joseph Wilcock and Ann Frankland
So William is the eldest son of Joseph and Joseph looks to have married possibly twice the first being a Frankland ................. it could just be a coincidence but thought I would let you know.
Regards
Z :)
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Hi z
That is interesting. It shows a possible family connection via Ann Frankland. Maybe a sister of the unknown Mrs Ashton? Did you notice the Thomas Wilcock and family living next door in 1861? He is the Bath Manager - obviously employing his sons!
Andrea
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William Wilcock born 1856 to Joseph and Ann is one of my missing relatives. Ann Frankland was my 2xgreat grandfather's sister she died Feb 1859 and was buried at Great Horton Wesleyan Chapel.
Incidentally the Frankland family in Great Horton were Wesleyan Methodists with very strong links to the local chapel. So Joseph Ashton (who I have yet to locate) could have been a Methodist preacher.
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This is an amazing forum ... truly! I went off to bed last night thinking I should've written "completed" on my original entry and awoke this morning to all these wonderful suggestions and information. I am liking the possible family connection via Ann Frankland very, very much... This possible family connection could be the reason the Rev Joseph wanted his reply to go c/- Wilcock because he is desperate to hear from his son, Thomas, and knows that Thomas is more likely to reply if he knows that his father (Joseph) is still "in with" his first wife's family ... Thomas' mother's family. Many thanks to Z for this deductive work ... it has given me hope and light at the end of this tunnel!
Was great to hear from hjstort- not only because we have a possible connection, but also for the information regarding the Frankland family in Great Horton being Wesleyan Methodists and the fact that Joseph Ashton could've been a Methodist preacher ... yet another avenue for me to explore.
Regards
patDEN in Western Australia
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The 1854 marriage took place on 2 July 1854 at St Peter, Bradford (Bradford Cathedral)
Joseph Wilcock aged 19, bachelor, Overlooker of Horton - father is Robert Wilcock, Farmer
Ann Frankland aged 22, spinster, Weaver of Horton - father is George Frankland, Weaver
Joseph signed, Ann made her mark. Witnesses: William Holmes and Ephraim Smith (possibly church officials as they witnessed the other marriage on the page).
BumbleB
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Thanks for this added information BumbleB ... knowing that Ann Frankland's father is George Frankland will certainly help connect the families when I eventually discover Joseph Ashton's marriage to Unknown Frankland. Your time in looking this up for me is appreciated.
Regards
patDEN in Western Australia
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It doesn't seem as if the Rev Joseph attended either Oxford or Cambridge [contacted their Archives]. So now I am wondering if, indeed, he was a dissenting minister of some kind?
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Looking at each UK Census I have only been able to locate one Rev. Joseph Ashton - born 1795, a Unitarian minister who trained in Manchester. He preached in Halifax from 1826 to 1829. From 1830 to 1856 he was based on Preston, Lancashire. In 1861 Census he is retired, living in Stockport, Cheshire with two siblings. He died in 1864.
I am beginning to wonder if Thomas William Ashton may have adopted a new identity on leaving the UK. Could he in fact be William Wilcock? Perhaps his brother Robert was aware of the new identity and he was responsible for the letter to your grandmother's father regarding Thomas William's continued existence.
Probably a bit far fetched I know.
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I must say that I wondered if there was a name change in this scenario too but the letter from Joseph Ashton does not fit in with that theory does it?
Andrea
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Unless the letter was from someone (Robert?) using the name Joseph Ashton to maintain his half brother's "new" identity.
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Evening All ;D
I had also started to wonder about the name change as the Rev Joseph Ashton does not want to be found :-\
I have searched for Joseph Ashton as a Minister, Reverend, Curate, Sexton, Preacher, Vicar, Rector and anything else I can think of but alas nothing - does anyone else find it odd that a man who has what I would consider to be a public role within the community is nowhere to be found?
Are there any other clues on the letter ie content, postmark?
To add and my apologies if you have this already but whilst searching the National Archives of Australia I came across a couple of service records which might be of interest:-
Jack/John Ashton 16th Battalion Father Thomas William Ashton - Religious Denomination C of E
Douglas Ashton 32 Battalion Father Thomas William Ashton - Religious Denomination Pres
Also I discovered that Alice Wilcock b 1864 Wibsey the daughter of Joseph and Hannah Ashton as shown in 1881
RG11 4603 7 7 married a George Henry Whike June 1885 Dist Bradford Y Vol 9b Pg290 they emigrate and can be found in the 1900/10/20/30 United States Federal Census in Canton Ward 1 Stark Ohio quite alot and more can be found on family search plus the baptism of their first son George Henry Whike bapt 1886 Methodist Great Horton York England and if you search for Alice Whike Ohio amongst the info you should also come across her parents names Joseph Wilcox and Hannah Lightower which I think should be Lightowler. They also appear here www.ellisisland.org
Not sure whether any of the above will help but it might assist you in your search for the very VERY elusive Rev Joseph Ashton ;D
All the best
Z :)
Hi Andrea - Yes I had noticed the other Wilcock family living next door but it was the bath of path conundrum I was having a problem with ;D
All the best
Z :)
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Again, while I was sleeping ... and again, many thanks for all information and suggestions.
A couple of days ago my sister located a Rev Joseph Ashton at Brook St Chapel Knutsford Cheshire who was minister there between 1820-1826 and being desperate to find a Rev Joseph, I was nearly prepared to stretch the age limit and claim him. Thanks to hjstort's information, I think he is probably the Rev Joseph who died in 1864. BTW, hjstort, was this Rev Joseph married?
The name change possibilities considered by hjstort, Andrea & Z are interesting. I have to admit I had not gone down this path, but after 20 years of trying to find the elusive Reverend and checking for Thomas William's birth 1850-1860 under all ASHTON name variants from HASHTON to ASTDON and back again, I am fast considering it!
To this end, I tried the free BMD index and discovered that while there no TW Frankland births, there were a couple of interesting Thomas William WILCOCK births:
1852 Sep Qtr: Thomas William Wilcock b. Bradford Yks
1855 Sep Qtr: Thomas William Wilcock b. Leeds Yks
It is so maddening I cannot locate any marriages to Joseph Ashton to either a FRANKLAND or WILCOCK. I am wondering if perhaps there was no marriage or if it occurred in a non-denominational church and wasn't registered centrally?
I will attach the Rev Joseph's letter in following post ... have to locate it!
Many thanks
patDEN
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Will have to leave the attachment of the letter for now ... I have located it, but cannot seem to attach it onto this page... need to find out how!
patDEN
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The Look Up boards do not take attachments. You could put it on the main West Riding board with a link to show it belongs to this thread. If you then lock it we won't get replies there as well. That would confuse us even more!
No - forget that and I will move this thread to the main board - then it will all be together
Andrea
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The September quarter Thomas William Wilcock was born 5 September 1855, baptised 31 August 1856 at St Peter, Leeds - the son of John and Judith Wilcock of Hound Street. John is a Brewer.
BumbleB
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Thanks BumbleB for the information on Thomas William Wilcock 1855 birth ... I know to give him a wide berth!
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I will be interested in what others think might be the age of the writer. I consider it to be anywhere between 60 and 70 years. While the Rev doesn't appear to be with Robert Wilcock and family on Census night, he does appear to be using this address as his own ... and on another sheet of paper, he does state that he wants the letter to go c/- Robert Wilcock at the same address.
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Interesting. He could perhaps be writing it on behalf of someone else? Often the local vicar would do that sort of thing for his parishioners if they were not literate. Having the same name does confuse the issue though.
Andrea
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Meant to mention earlier, Z, thanks for the noting the Service Records of the sons of Thomas William Ashton - I had never noticed their 'different' religions before, despite having both records in full. John, unfortunately did not return, while Douglas did.
I am with you in that it would seem the Rev Joseph does not want to be found! When I accidentally stumbled across the newspaper marriage entry giving his address in 1886 as Horton, I thought that at long last I would nail him! So excited did I become, that I rang an elderly descendant of Joseph - someone whom I have never met and someone whom I certainly had not discussed the Rev with. I asked her if she knew anything about him at all. Her reply: "Well, he was married two or three times, you know ... he was a bit of a lady's man. He was a minister of some kind as well."
I have a Dissenting Minister on the 'other side of the family' in Buckinghamshire and only after he had retired from his day job (grocer) did he list himself as "Dissenting Minister" on Census returns , despite having been a preacher in the same area for over 50 years. Wonder if the Rev Joseph had a 'day job?'
Again, many thanks for your thoughts and time
patDEN
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I've been wondering if Joseph Ashton might have been something like a Methodist 'lay' preacher - i.e. one who had a full-time job, but also went around preaching at various Methodist Churches in the area. This might explain why he can't be found as a 'minister' or whatever.
Although, strictly speaking, I don't think this would have entitled him him to call himself a 'Reverend' :(
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Thanks for your thoughts, JenB ... I am thinking along these same lines. My next step is to identify his day job!
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A couple of days ago my sister located a Rev Joseph Ashton at Brook St Chapel Knutsford Cheshire who was minister there between 1820-1826 and being desperate to find a Rev Joseph, I was nearly prepared to stretch the age limit and claim him. Thanks to hjstort's information, I think he is probably the Rev Joseph who died in 1864. BTW, hjstort, was this Rev Joseph married?
The Rev. Joseph mentioned in my posts did serve in Knutsford so we are looking at the same individual. In the 1841, 1851 & 1861 Census returns he appears as Unmarried.
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Afternoon All ;D
The letter I think appears to have been written on behalf of the family by Rev Joseph Ashton as Andrea says it does confuse the issue having the same name but in the newspaper article you came across he states his father as Rev Joseph Ashton of Horton House so I wonder why he didn't ask for the letter to be passed to his son? And why write "in doing so you will greatly oblige his father" why not "I would be a obliged as his father" does that make sense?
A couple of snippets I came across whilst trawling the Trove website :-
A death notice 23 Sept 1919 for Isabella Ashton wife of Thomas William Ashton of Cranbrook interment the Presbyterian Cemetery Karrakatta etc
Probate notice in the Sunday Times (Perth,WA :1902-1954) for a Thomas William Ashton late of Cranbrook (died 21/7/27) and if I have interpreted this correctly then Probate was to be granted to a Joseph William Ashton of Cranbrook - does this mean anything to you? If so I wonder whether you are able to get a copy? It might hold some clues?
Still cannot find the elusive Rev Joseph Ashton I am beginning to wonder whether to keep up the pretense he was invented in order not to expose the true identity of Thomas William Ashton.
Anyway must go and do some housework ;D
All the very best
Z :)
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And why write "in doing so you will greatly oblige his father" why not "I would be a obliged as his father" does that make sense?
But quite often people at that time wrote about themselves in the third person rather than in a personal sense.
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Hi again
Now that is interesting I did not know that JenB - I've learnt something new today - thanks ;D
This Rev Joseph Ashton is not making this easy is he ;D ;D
All the best
Z :)
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Currently looking at entries for Rev Joseph Ashton in old newspapers.
One entry found in Wrexham - Marriage ceremony by Rev Joseph at Primitive Methodist Chapel April 1890.
Brian
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Thanks Calverley Lad - I appreciate you looking for entries re Rev Joseph Ashton in old newspapers. I will keep the Wrexham entry on file... one never knows!
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Even though the Rev eludes me, I think, Z, that I am comfortable in the knowledge that Joseph Ashton is the father of Thomas William Ashton. Perhaps now knowing that Thomas was the eldest son (I did not know this until coming across that marriage entry in the newspaper) will make searching the earlier Census' a bit easier?
Yes, those snippets you quoted re Isabella Ashton and the Probate of Thomas William are familiar to me. Joseph William is the eldest son of Thomas William and I am afraid the Will does not offer any clues as to the existence or whereabouts of the elusive Rev.
I am still hopeful something will arise re Horton House and Joseph in the near future.
Thanks again, Z, your efforts and time much appreciated by me.
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Good Morning patDen ;D
Good luck with the research I do hope you find him.
All the very best.
Z :)
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Further to my earlier post re newspapers:
Dec 12th 1844 The Rev Joseph Ashton Borough, of Emanuel College to be chaplain and naval instructor to her majesty's ship Amazon.
Brian
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Thanks for this Brian ... I have contacted Emanuel College to see what else they can add!
Regards
patDEN
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Further to my earlier post re newspapers:
Dec 12th 1844 The Rev Joseph Ashton Borough, of Emanuel College to be chaplain and naval instructor to her majesty's ship Amazon.
Just to add - in the report of this in the Caledonian Mercury, his name is given as J. Burrough
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Thanks JenB ... I did wonder ...
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There is a death of a Joseph Ashton Burrow aged 63 in the 1st quarter of 1881. ??? :-\
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Emanuel College state that Rev Joseph Ashton Borough was not a fellow/student of the College, nor could they find any evidence that he was a chaplain there, although the newspaper report indicates that this was probably the case.
Probably the death JenB mentions of a Joseph Ashton Burrow in 1881 is him.
Thanks to both Brian and JenB for this lead.
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He was a student there, according to the Cambridge Universtiy Alumni List, having 'migrated' there from Queen's College.
pens. at QUEENS', Dec. 6, 1833. Of Cumberland. Matric. Michs. 1834. Migrated to Emmanuel, Dec. 22, 1834; Scholar, 1835; B.A. 1838. Ord. deacon (Durham) Dec. 15, 1838; priest, July 4, 1840; C. of St Andrew's, Newcastle, 1838-41. Chaplain in the Royal Navy, 1841-56. Co-Principal of the Naval College of North Grove House, Southsea, in 1860. (Occurs in Crockford, 1860, as Ashton Burrow, but afterwards as Joseph Ashton; in Crockford, 1877-81, without address; disappears, 1882.) (Durham Ord. Bk.)
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Many thanks, JenB, for the information from the Cambridge University Alumni List ... possibly the archivist looked him up under Borough and not any name variants. What a wonderful wealth of information is given about this Rev Joseph ... if only he was mine!
I am now seriously thinking of looking for any possible deaths for the Rev between Dec 1891 and say 1910. I am also wondering about the possibility of Wills?
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Hi patDen
The only will I can find which might be of interest is that of Robert Wilcock - Probate 23 April 1927
Wilcock Robert of 12 Belvoir street Derby died 13 Feb 1927 at the Boundary house Derby Probate Derby 23 April to Martha Emily widow
Also to let you know I have found a couple of mentions for a Horton House:-
1861 - RG9 3328 23 40 Town Horton Civil Parish Bradford
1871 - RG10 4471 20 34 Civil Parish Horton although I think this is in a different location of Horton.
1881 - RG11 4458 30 6 Civil Parish Horton
And just to add as a matter of interest Joseph Wilcock and family in 1871 RG10 4471 6 6 appear in Dist 12 of the Enumeration Dist the same Dist as the Horton House found in 1871 as above - if this is the correct Horton House Joseph Wilcock and family are not that far away and although he appears in 1881 in Barnsley with his family his daughter Alice in 1885 has married George Whike in Bradford so maybe he returned to the area and free bmd has deaths of:-
Hannah Wilcock Mar 1890 Bradford Y Vol 9b Pg 44
Joseph Wilcock June 1895 Bradford Y Vol 9b Pg 70
Regards
Z :)
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Hi Z
I cannot thank you enough for your input ... I am certainly starting to think outside the square! I did start to try and pick out some likely suspects re the death of various Joseph Ashtons, but was forced to abandon the search as being too broad especially as I know very little about where he was born and his date of birth etc.
Based on your earlier suggestion, I am now starting to wonder, if in fact, William Wilcock b. ~ 1856 Bradford YKS might be the son of Joseph Ashton and either Ann or her sister, Unknown Frankland. I realise that Ann was already married to Joseph Wilcock at the time of 'my' Thomas William's birth, but an affair could've occurred between Ann & Joseph and the result was William - who was reared by the Wilcock family. Similarly, Joseph could've had an affair with Ann's sister and for some reason, Ann & her husband agreed to rear William. And as suggested earlier, perhaps William did not take on the name of his father until he was joining the Merchant Navy. Certainly the name of Frankland is within the family. As my sister pointed out to me Thomas William's eldest son, Joseph William, named one of his sons, Frankland who was known as Frank.
By the 1881 Census, William Wilcock b. Bradford, son of Joseph Wilcock seems to have disappeared. There are two William Wilcocks listed b. Bradford but they are sons of a John Wilcock in both instances.
Thanks also Z for your interest in Horton House and locating it on the census. My sister has also been busy trying to find out about Horton House and has come up with the following:
The draft conservation assessment for Little Horton Lane has a map showing the location of Horton House and another publication, a book called "Rambles Round Horton" by William Cudworth, published in 1886 contains a wonderful drawing of the House and also contains the following references:
p.93" Horton House remained in the hands of the Fitzgeralds until a short time ago when it was disposed of by public auction." There is no mention of Joseph Ashton in the book.
p. 226 ".....the 'Ashton Dole' is a charity, the proceeds of which are derived from property left under the will of John Ashton in 1712 to be distributed 1/2 yearly among poor people of Horton above 60 years of age who are not in the receipt of Parish relief."
Back to the drawing board ... again many thanks
patDEN
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Hi patDEN
think we might be barking up the same tree - literally. My Dad (now in his mid eighties) has asked me to track his mother's (deceased - Thyrza Victoria Ashton) side of the family. Her father appears to have been Thomas William Ashton, known to the family as a river boat Captain before moving to WA as farmer. His father Joseph Ashton, mother unknown Frankland.
new to rootschat - only registered in attempt to have conversation with you.
what side of the family are you coming from? ie which sibling of Thomas William Ashton?
would like to link you up with my Dad and understand that we are unable to do that through this channel. not sure how to approach it any other way. Dad very keen to put the pieces together, whilst he still can.
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Hi Greensleeves and welcome
If you make a couple more posts you can use our personal message system to exchange information, by clicking on the green scroll under a poster's name. Just reply to this to activate it.
Regards
Andrea
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Hi Greensleeves
Indeed, we are on the same track. My grandmother, Lillias Irene Ashton, was the sister of your grandmother, Thyrsa Victoria Ashton who always referred to by my grandmother as "Peg". I did meet Peg at one time a long time ago ... I took my grandmother to see her in Manjimup ... about 1976. Unfortunately, I had no interest in family history at the time, so I missed out on any of Peg's little gems of information she may have had to pass on. How wonderful your dad is keen to find out more re the Ashton family. I am guessing your dad will be either Norman or Allen? I am only too happy to join forces with you or your dad and share information, photos etc. As Andrea suggests, we will be able to message personally if you want.
Regards
patDEN
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Big thanks to Andrea (sillgen) and patDEN for getting back to me on this.
patDEN, i remember visiting your grandma (Aunty Lil) on the farm near Badgingarra in her later years. So thrilled to have made this connection with you. My Dad (Allen) is the last of his line now and this is really important to him all of a sudden.
Andrea is saying there is a way of talking directly. must admit i got so excited to see a reply from you both, i didn't quite take in how we do that. hopefully you can initiate it from your end as i am unfamiliar with anything more advanced than email!
Off to ring Dad and fill him in.
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Hi patDEN
I am pretty much a newbie to ancestoral research and discovered this forum by chance. I have to say after only a short time my head is starting to hurt but I think this forum will go along way toward taking away some of the pain that seems part of this type of research.
Like you I live in WA and have an interest in TW Ashton & the Rev' together with their antecedents. TW is my wife's g grandfather also and I seem to have hit the same brick wall you obviously did quite some time ago whilst endeavouring to explore his background.
Anyway won't bore everyone with all the detail here but when I qualify to do so I will send you a PM with a view to getting in touch and exploring family history information that may be of mutual interest.
At our end at least we may have some documents (such as Isabella's Birth & Death cert's) that you may like copies of and some paraphenalia relating to TW such as the following (if my attempt to attach succeeds).
Best regards
Kevin
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Many thanks for your message, Kevin - it is wonderful having more family sleuths on board! I have been at work all day, but my sister has just sent me a transcript of that wonderful reference for TW Ashton ... signed by the Manager, Joseph Wilcock. What an absolute gem ... the Wilcock name looms yet again. Previous posts on this thread will indicate that a Joseph Wilcock married an Ann Frankland [thanks to hjstort last October] and while it is obvious that Joseph Wilcock is the Manager of the Collieries in which Thomas worked 1872-1877, it doesn't rule out a possible family connection. I am hopeful this reference will open up more avenues for research ...
I am sure we will have much to share regarding this family ... please keep in touch.
Regards
Pat
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Hi patDEN
Great to hear from you. At this stage of my reasearch I'm not sure I can contribute too much but perhaps a new finger in the pie may be able to uncover something useful in the search for the elusive Rev'.
I am hoping to pick up a box of Ashton family documents, in the next couple of weeks, from a source I discovered yesterday so here's hoping there may be some pointers amongst those papers.
Incidentally I found another reference for TW placing him in Mooloolaba, Qld in Nov, 1884 so it looks like he moved to Australia between 1877 and 1884.
Whilst you may already be aware of it I have also located reference to a Rev' Joseph Ashton at the Unitarian Chapel in Preston. No specific date but the book was produced in Dec' 1869. I have not followed up on this thread yet as you may have covered it previously.
I have sent you a PM with my contact details if you are interested in making contact which I would look forward to.
Regards
Kevin
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Thanks, Kevin, for your reply. The Qld reference is very interesting ... from his death certificate, I have placed TW in Qld about 1884, but without any real 'proof.' Now it seems we have it!
The Rev Joseph of Preston, I have come across before, some time ago now, and dismissed him as a likely candidate because he was too young, I think [from memory].
Thanks for your PM ... will contact you directly on your remail addy.
Regards
Pat
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Hi Greensleeves
Indeed, we are on the same track. My grandmother, Lillias Irene Ashton, was the sister of your grandmother, Thyrsa Victoria Ashton who always referred to by my grandmother as "Peg". I did meet Peg at one time a long time ago ... I took my grandmother to see her in Manjimup ... about 1976. Unfortunately, I had no interest in family history at the time, so I missed out on any of Peg's little gems of information she may have had to pass on. How wonderful your dad is keen to find out more re the Ashton family. I am guessing your dad will be either Norman or Allen? I am only too happy to join forces with you or your dad and share information, photos etc. As Andrea suggests, we will be able to message personally if you want.
Regards
patDEN
My Ann Frankland 1831-1859 (married to Joseph Wilcock) had a younger sister Thirza (1841-1919). I noticed the name of Greensleaves' grandmother was Thyrsa and wonder if this similarity could be another pointer to indicate a connection to Ann.
Regards
Helga
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Thanks Helga, for your information re Thirza. I was going to message you as I am starting to think that there is a connection ... yet to be proven, of course. My sister has come up with the idea that Joseph Wilcock and Joseph Ashton married two sisters, Ann and Elizabeth respectively. Certainly the time frame fits. It is now just a matter of trying to locate the relevant documentation. I have had absolutely no joy in locating a marriage
of the the Rev Joseph!
Will keep plugging away ... and again thanks for the Thirza bit ... I may be wrong, but I think it is not a common name?
Regards
Pat
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Will keep plugging away ... and again thanks for the Thirza bit ... I may be wrong, but I think it is not a common name?
More common than you think!
In 1851 census, there are 3689 Thirza's! ;D
1861 has 4261. of course, this does include "Thereza".
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Thanks KGarrad ... although the news is a bit depressing!
Regards
Pat
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Since my initial submission to this forum last year, I have been able to make steady progress in my quest for information re the Rev Joseph and his son, Thomas William Ashton and most of this progress is due to the information and advice given by contributors to this forum. My sincere thanks to each and every one of you.
While I haven't yet reached conclusive evidence of Thomas William's mother's name, I feel I am getting very close. Just this week I received a memorial card from a descendant of Thomas William Ashton. Amongst Ashton 'stuff' unearthed from a back shed in Western Australia was a memorial card which reads:
"In Loving Remembrance of Betty Frankland, who died Nov 26th 1887 aged 75 years and was interred in the Wesleyan Chapel, Great Horton, on the 29th".
I think this must be Betty, mother of Ann Frankland who married Joseph Wilcock? Perhaps Helga will be able to confirm this? We know from Thomas William's 1927 Death Certificate, his mother's name is recorded as Unknown Frankland.
Also amongst the Ashton 'stuff' were heaps of photographs and quite a few of these have the photographers names [e,g, James Exley Southfield Lane Great Horton Bradford: George Rushforth Pontefract Rd Barnsley; J Walker Eldon Street Barnsley; Albert Sachs 151 Westgate Bradford] all from the area I now believe Thomas William came from i.e. the Great Horton, Barnsley & Bradford areas. I know from BigKev's attachment of last year regarding the reference written by the mine manager of Mount Osborne & Gawber mines [a Joseph Wilcock], that my Thomas William Ashton worked as an enginewright for these coal mining companies in Barnsley between 1872 & 1877, so I am hopeful I am now on the right track.
This is a it long winded, but I wanted everyone who gave their time to know that absolutely every suggestion was followed up, including the fact that Thomas William may have been born/raised a Wilcock.
Kind regards
patDEN
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Hello Pat
The memorial card is for my 3xg grandmother Betty Frankland (nee Morley) mother of Ann who married Joseph Wilcock, I have a scanned image of the same card amonst my files.
In the family bible are "portraits" taken by James Exley.
Regards Helga
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Thanks, Helga, your information is most welcome. I dared to hope! Do you have any knowledge of 'your' Joseph Wilcock ever being a manager of the Gawber mines? I wonder if you would mind if I sent you a PM containing images I have of persons photographed by James Exley? I know any identical images you may have will not prove anything, but it could lead me somewhere!
Kind regards
Pat
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Thought you might like this.
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Many thanks for the pic, dave the tyke. I was only thinking this morning that I will definitely visit the church and churchyard where Betty was buried [I am visiting Eng in August this year] even if I am no closer to proving the Frankland Ashton connection when I leave WA because I just feel there is something there somewhere!
Kind regards
patDEN
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Hi Pat
the churchyard is very overgrown and not many of the headstones were still standing in 2008 when I took the photo. The Non-conformist burial records are on Ancestry but they are hard to find because the burial books cover several chapels in the Methodist / Wesleyan circuit and the transcribers have left a lot to be desired. The burial books do not mention headstones or family grouping.
There is an history of the chapel in one of the books but I didn't take note of exactly where it was.
Bradford Central Library has copies but unfortunately the family history floor is off-limits at the moment due to structural problems. They might be able to do a search for you.
regards
Dave
PS I forgot to mention that there are records of the members together with their place of residence and movements from the congregation etc..
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Thanks, Helga, your information is most welcome. I dared to hope! Do you have any knowledge of 'your' Joseph Wilcock ever being a manager of the Gawber mines? I wonder if you would mind if I sent you a PM containing images I have of persons photographed by James Exley? I know any identical images you may have will not prove anything, but it could lead me somewhere!
Kind regards
Pat
Hi Pat
Regret I have no further information re. Joseph Wilcock - disappears from our family history following Ann's death, although I have a scan of another memorial card for Frederic Wilcock son of Ann who dies December 1860 aged 1 year 11 months. This does not state where he is buried.
I would love to see the James Exley photos (and any other from Bradford photographers), I am sending you my email address by PM so that you can, should you wish, send them to me direct.
Regards
Helga
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Hi Dave
Thanks for all your information and suggestions ... I will contact the Bradford Central Library and see what they can do. I simply have to follow up any avenue which might give me further direction in my quest!
When I first posted to the forum, I did not know then that Thomas William Ashton worked in the Gawber mines Barnsley 1872-1877 - that Colliery reference and the date 1872 is the earliest date I can positively place him in Yorkshire. I now also know that he was employed as 3rd engineer on the oil tanker SS Petriana Feb 1883-Feb 1884 [Ref: Newcastle on Tyne - R Dickson Steamer Dept.]. Next TW Ashton is on board the Sorata and heading for Brisbane Australia 30 March 1884. TW Ashton never returned to England.
Again, thanks for your input Dave
Regards
Pat
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Have sent James Exley photos, Helga. Others following.
Regards
Pat