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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: Echovalley on Tuesday 11 October 11 08:37 BST (UK)

Title: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Tuesday 11 October 11 08:37 BST (UK)
Robert and Helen m cc 1806 and their son John b 1814 was born in the Scottish Borders.  The parents moved to the Highlands as shepherds and they died in the Parish of Appin in 1861 and 1859.  Their son John m Elizabeth Oliver and he was a shepherd on Skye when he d in 1875.
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 11 October 11 09:38 BST (UK)
Hi

Again as with the other post that I've answered, you're not clear about what you want to know  :-\

If you want to go further back from Robert and Helen,  their death certs would give their parents' names. These can be obtained online from www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. It's a pay site but very reasonable.

gnu
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Tuesday 11 October 11 21:10 BST (UK)
I have Robert Helm's parents as William and Mary, nee Scott but have no further information on this couple.  I was hoping to hear from someone who could fill in the gaps.  I  have been in Scotland, 2005, looking for family tombstones and I couldnt find Robert or Helen's gravesite, said to be in the Parish of Appin, in Argyll.
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 11 October 11 21:35 BST (UK)
If you want to know where they were buried, it would be best to  ask for an MI look up on the Argyll board.

I think that burial grounds were noted on the earlier death certs. but, if they were poor, they might not have monuments and you'd need to get someone to look at the lair books.


gnu

Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Tuesday 11 October 11 21:42 BST (UK)
I have had a query on an Argyll board in the past but with no answers. They had a daughter and son in law in the area as a Robert Armstrong, son in law, gave the details for the death certificates.
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 11 October 11 22:15 BST (UK)
They seem to have moved around as they had a son, William b. Kilmonivaig (near Spean Bridge/Fort William), Inverness-shire in 19th June 1811. No daughters listed for them so far.

Do you have this entry for the  1841

Culachyreach, Boleskin and Abertaff, Invernessshire

Robert Helm, 55, ag lab, b. Scotland
Helen, 50, b. England
William, 30, ag lab. b. Scotland
Catherine Macdonald, 19, Female servant, b. Invernessshire
Janet Irvine, 14. b Invernessshire


Nothing is showing for a baptism for John (1814) - just a submitted entry of his marriage.

Only marriage showing (1800-1811) in Scotland  for a Robert Helm was this one:

17  Jan 1806 Eckford, Rox, Robert Helam and Jane Givan.

Maybe Jane died  :-\

If Helen was born England (as 1841 census), then it's likely to be in Northumberland. Who were her parents on the death cert?


gnu
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Tuesday 11 October 11 22:48 BST (UK)
Thanks for the replies.  Helen Beattie was born c 1786, christened 16 April 1786 in Castleton, Scottish borders.  Her parents were John and Jean/Jane Robson.  I think it was a mistake re her being born in England  in the 1851 census as the 1841 one says she was born in Scotland
William born 1811, Mary c 1813 (m Robert Armstrong) and John b 1814  Scottish borders (m Elizabeth Oliver from Latheron, Caithness).  Re the moving around, not sure whether he was droving in the early days as the sheep were being taken to the Highlands, later I think they settled in an area. 
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 11 October 11 23:06 BST (UK)
There's lots of info in a book called 'The Lowland Clearances' about movement of ag workers, including shepherds. I find that social history fleshes out the BMDs and census details.   I don't have the full details at hand but can find them if you'd like.

Also, of course, there was the Cheviot and the Stag!

Some of my ancestors, including shepherds and tenant farmers,  moved from Kirkcudbrighthshire to North Wales in the 1830s.

I'll see if I can find more about your family but I've just received a wonderful photo of my Scottish 3xgreat grandmother taken in the 1860s so my mind will be on such things for a while  :)

gnu
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Tuesday 11 October 11 23:25 BST (UK)
Thanks for the information.  I hadn't heard of that book but I do have 'The Drove Roads of Scotland" by A.R.B. Haldane, thanks to Amazon, and it is an interesting read.  How wonderful to have such an old photograph. 
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 12 October 11 00:32 BST (UK)
Just a wee bit on the grave sites ~

Helen Helm's death certificate records that she was buried in Appin Churchyard - Glencoe and Ballachulish.  If there was no Monument then there would only be lair book information.

The Authority which would be responsible for the Lair books would be Lochaber District Council

http://www.lochaberlocal.co.uk/directory/government-community/council-offices/

I seem to remember that they were very helpful towards another  member a few years ago.


Added - it might be in Argyll and Bute though - unclear from the site:

http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/planning-and-environment#main-content



gnu
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Wednesday 12 October 11 00:52 BST (UK)
Thanks, will give them a email and see what comes up
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: irvinemg on Wednesday 04 January 12 16:32 GMT (UK)
Dear Lindemann,

I noticed your inquiry regarding the Beattie and Helm family and will provide
the following:

It is very possible that the Janet Irvine in census of 1841 with your family is
my Great Aunt Janet. She was born on the 22 Jan 1825 at Deanburnhaugh
cottage Roberton. To my knowledge there were no other Irvine families
in the area, except my possible Grt Grt Uncle Andrew Irvine and his wife
Elizabeth Beedle, then living at Rosskeen.

I don't have the 1841 census, so can't tell you if my Janet was in her own
home at census time.

I cannot find any Janet Irvine born at Inverness in 1827 as the census
states.

Janet's brother was named Robert Helome Irvine, however many reference documents give his name as Robert Helm Irvine. Robert was the youngest of my great uncle's. He was born on the 5th Aug 1837 at Fannich Contin.

The above's father, William Irvine, worked for the Scott family on the borders and have often wondered if his mother was a Mary Scott.

William's wife was one Rachel Beattie and supposed to be the daughter of Jane Robson, but this I discount strongly. But the connection is very close, as Rachel was of the Hawick Parish, and your connection is also very close as referred to the forementioned Robert Helm as a family christian name.

I hope this info is of interest to you, and we can connect the families together.

Kind regards Mike.

Ps; Note the William Irvine above your entry on heading page for Roxburghshire.
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Thursday 05 January 12 00:46 GMT (UK)
Hi Mike,
I have a copy of the 1841 census and the only information on Janet Irvine, 14yrs, b 1827, Scotland and she is no longer mentioned in this family group in the 1851 census.  I could send you a copy if you wish.  Robert Helm's parents I have as William Helm and Mary nee Scott, no further information.  I have the children of Jane and John Beattie as Helen c 16th April 1786 at Castleton Parish, m Robert Helm hence the connection and her sister Rachel c 15th march 1794 at Hawick Parish, d 17th Dec 1839, last information from the IGI, Familysearch site.  Would this be your Rachel?
Best wishes, Lindemann
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: irvinemg on Thursday 05 January 12 02:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Lindemann.  Thanks for your reply.

I don't now where the writer got the christening date for this Rachel
dated 1794 as no parish records are listed for her. It has always been
presumed that this Rachel is my Grt Grt Grandmother, but my Rachel
died aged 38yrs in 1839 at Contin. So was 1yr younger than her husband
Grt Grt Grd William born 1799/1800.

It is possible that the 1st Rachel died in infancy and a second named
Rachel born 1801.

As I said my Grt Uncle Robert Helome ( Helme ) Irvine has your family name.
I see a Robert and I think, a Janet Helme born to a William Helme of Hobkirk
Roxburghshire. Maybe this is your family.

I'm wondering if Mary Scott ( Mary Helme )was married to my 3x Grt Grndfather as your William Helme had  died, hence Janet visiting in 1841, and the need to mention the Helme name in mine.

However it would have been clearer for the family to give my Grt Aunt Mary the name of Mary Helme Irvine, but this wasn't the case.

It's ok about the 1841 census entry. Someone might list the Irvine family for this census. Yes, the Rachel that died on 17 Dec 1839 is my Grt Grt Grandmother.

My 3x Grt Grdmother was indeed a Mary, but her last name has never been found anywhere. Hope someone can assist us both.

Will say cheers for now.

Mike
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: irvinemg on Thursday 05 January 12 02:50 GMT (UK)
Hi again Lindemann. Sorry to put you wrong. Been so long his I did family
history. You're correct with a Rachel Beatty ( Beattie ) listed on the IGI for 1794, my error. None unfortunately for 1801.

Most of the Beatties' came from Dumfries. The descendants of a Rachel Beattie of Hutton and Corrie Dumfries lived 8 miles away from me in New Zealand.

Mike
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Echovalley on Thursday 05 January 12 03:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Mike,  I'm in NZ too, Katikati to be exact.  My direct ancestors settled near Waipukurau as Christopher Brown and Helen, nee Helm, emigrated just after their wedding in Skye in 1873.  Re the Beattie family, mine are from Castleton and it is a small village south of Dunfreisshire.  I have a William Brown who m a Margaret Davidson b c 1808, Dunfreiss.Good luck, Lindemann
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Cathiemay on Saturday 07 January 12 21:16 GMT (UK)
Hi,
  Has anyone came across a Barbara Beattie who must have lived at Castleton Roxburghshire around 1823/24.  I only know she  was the mother of my grt grandmother who went by the name of Helen Telfer who was born at Castleton about 1823/24 and was illegitimate.   I can't find out anything about Barbara Beattie, or Helen's early life. She married Thomas Storie at Jedburgh 1842. & died 1903 in Hobkirk Parish.
                          Cathiemay.
Title: Re: Robert Helm m Helen Beattie cc 1806
Post by: Rowanshed on Saturday 19 May 18 21:04 BST (UK)
Hello been reading some of your posts just that I'm interested in the MacDonald clan and have this old book with the name Janet MacDonald 1850 written on the first couple of pages possibly a relation?.My mother Betty (Elizabeth Janet) and family came from Carradale.Other old book with names and dates malcolm 31 Sept 1838,mary 15 March 1843,cathrine 22 Dec? 1846,douglas Sept 22 1838, Isabella 18 1840 and Donald 18 Aug 1841.Hope it's some help?