RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: PRich on Tuesday 25 October 11 18:59 BST (UK)
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I would be very interested to know if anyone has yet managed to gain access to the Paymaster General's account book which apparently lists brief details relating to each of the 35,000 soldiers who fought at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. Many will be aware that this book was 'discovered' at Belfast City Hall back in late 2009 and then donated to the Orange Order.
Are there any transcription projects ongoing? Of course, many of King William's former soldiers are known to have later settled in Ireland after the Boyne so such a document is immensely important to serious genealogists. I have lost track of the number of times people have told me that their ancestors settled in Ulster as a result of having 'come over with King Billy' and now we, finally, have a way of potentially proving these claims. Does anyone know if PRONI intends to obtain facsimile copies of the book?
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Hi PRich,
Thanks for bringing this document to the attention of us Co. Antrim researchers.
Agreed - the document is potentially a very rich source of family history information.
['Twas created during a period of much turmoil, but also control (martial law).
I know of another (of much lesser scale) from the same 1690 timeframe.
See later.]
It is supposed to be being made accessible for public perusal at the Orange Order's HQ (Schomberg House) in Cregagh, Belfast.
[... but filmed security copies must have been made by now for storage/research elsewhere.]
http://www.boyneobelisklol1690.com/paymaster_general.php
http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/parades/schomberg_house.html
To find out, I've taken the direct approach and EMailed Dr. Jonathan MATTISON asking about efforts on transcription, indexing and supply of typical samples. Awaiting response.
[Expect there might be a book in the offing ...]
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I have a selfish interest, in connection with my efforts helping in the research on the WHITTLE family at Glenavy... being particularly concerned to establish whether the Reverend John WHITTLE went across to Ireland during 1689-91. Earlier he had been a chaplain to the British regiments on permanent loan to the Dutch from King Charles II. He was present during all of the fervent activity of late 1688, being the famous author of "An Exact Diary of the Recent Expedition ..." held in the British Museum. There he reported on WoO's preparations for invasion, the eventful voyage to Brixham in Devon - landing on 05-NOV (one day after WoO celebrated his birthday quietly at sea), his thanksgiving sermon at Exeter, and the long/slow canny progress up to London.
[I know that he was NOT the Rev. John WHITTLE who was at St. Canice (CoI) in Kilkenny. He died in 1686.]
He is mooted to have come from a prominent family in London, possibly a brother of both Sackville WHITTLE (physician to King Charles II) and his sister Elizabeth WHITTLE, who was the 1st wife of Sir Stephen FOX.
FOX was exiled in Holland with the Royal family, managing their finances, during the Commonwealth period. Following the Restoration of the Monarchy he was appointed as Paymaster General of the Army during King Charles II's reign, and was one of the co-founders of the Royal Hospital in Chelsea. He is also recognised to have been the first self-made man.
[In his famous diary Samuel PEPYS recalls seeing FOX (who was his boss) at the WHITTLE home "counting more gold sovereigns than he had ever seen in his life"!]
Whats the connection?
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bevangenealogy&id=I48432
In June 1690 Coningsby was appointed joint paymaster-general of the army which William was about to take to Ireland. His colleague was Charles Fox, son of Sir Stephen Fox; Fox managed business in London while Coningsby looked after requirements in the field.
Both FOX and CONINGSBY were ardent WHIGs (Liberals), such also being the political persuasion of the low-church Anglican WHITTLEs at Glenavy, whose stem, James WHITTLE, was supposed to have been the only Whig member of Dublin City Council (hence an Alderman) at one stage.
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Whats the other document from 1690 that I know of?
It is a list of the names of Excise defaulters.
It is likely to have been inspired by another of CONINGSBY's roles:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Dictionary_of_National_Biography_volume_12.djvu/17
He was appointed joint receiver and paymaster-general of the forces employed in the reduction of Ireland, was (1689–90) commissioner of appeals in the excise, ...
Guess he was trying to raise funds locally in order to pay the army!
It was transcribed by record agent Tenison GROVES, before the originals were destroyed in Dublin in 1922.
[It is snapshotted within ... LDS British Film 0258497 "Surname W. and Co. Antrim Abstracts".]
The huge physical archive of TG's works is held at PRONI, indexed by large item numbers.
For this transcription the relevant sections are:
14902, 12 pages (an index of names)
Collector's Accounts 1690-1
Bundle 6E-3-5
Lisburn District
Army Accounts
14903, 21 pages (list of names, by district)
Inland Excise & Lycenses
Arrears Delivered to Mr. John LATHUM, Collector of the District of Lisburne,
by Nicholas WESTBY.
Lisburne District
Nicholas WESTBY Collr
Arreares of Inland Excise, Ale, Wine + XWatter Lycences
for eight months ending the 24th of June 1690
Covering Walkes: Lisburne, Glanavy, Hillsborrow, Antrim, Ballymenagh
14904, 17 pages (list of names)
Arrears Due in Lisburn Walke at Xmas 1691
Capt. Jock & Revving Jock
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Captain Jock,
Did you get a reply to your enquiry about accessing the book?
Elwyn
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Elwyn,
Yes, I had a gracious reply from David HUME, MBE, Director of Services for the Orange Order.
The photographing of the pages and the (electronic) indexing of the entries in the 1690 Paymaster General's book is "currently underway", under the control of "The Archivist".
Today, I've made a request for a further update on progress, and ultimate public access.
Watch this space!
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Also, as a further diagnostic to differentiate records, I have asked for a check to be made for the presence of Edward DERING 3rd Bt. of Surrenden-Dering, near Pluckley in Kent.
In March 1689 he was requested by William & Mary to raise the 24th Regiment of Foot in Kent.
[That regiment, now based in Wales, still visit St. Nicholas church to honour their founder.
Also to kiss the ground on which Catherine Zeta JONES stood while making the Darling Buds of May!]
ED took them in to Ireland under Schomberg later that year.
He died soon after in October 1689, aged 39, and was buried at Drogheda.
[Much of the army went down with disease at that time, with many soldiers shipped to Belfast to die.]
If ED is not present in the 1690 Paymaster General's book, then this indicates that it must be distinct from the "Schomberg Army Lists of 1689" mentioned in http://www.lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume9/volume9-7.html .
[I had a hunt for these a number of years back at the British Museum, but drew a blank.]
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David HUME authored a magnificent book, launched recently.
Eagle's Wings: The Journey of the Ulster-Scots and Scotch-Irish
ISBN-10: 1906578966
Published: Colourpoint, 2011
256 pp
A great read!
Capt. Jock
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PLEASE, please put the news on here when you hear that the book is available,
I desperately need it also. I live in Canada and don't hear everything that is going on. There was a bit in the newspaper when they found the original book, it hadn't been seen for many many years. I think it was down behind a bookcase or something. It was very exciting for such an important find. mykin
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Mykin,
Your passionate call resounds loud and long!
David Hume (following his 18thC namesake) surely can be only sympathetic ...
"Desire rather than Reason governs Human Behaviour ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume
Rest assured, I've got a real-time-post triggered for when the info arrives.
However, all's been quiet since 08-DEC.
[Hmm, one day after 07-DEC ... hope the doors haven't been slammed shut ...
Never a hint of any feedback yet ... not even a quietly whispered "No 'Surrenden-Dering' "!]
Maybe some of us could offer our help to complete the recording/indexing task.
[Perhaps best presented politically in person accompanied by the recent "Ulster" Rugby Union try scorers,
with a declaration that "we haven't come to let the grass grow under our feet".
That should get things moving!]
Capt. Jock
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Add my name to the list of those passionate in finding further details about these transcripts.
Di
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Many thanks, Capt., for informing us and following up. I and a whole host of American cousins will be very eager for news of the availability of data and images from the account book. An Ulster ancestor was reported to be a Williamite supporter at the Boyne named Col. Widney (a/k/a Wodney, Woodney, Udney, Udnie, Udny, and Owdny). Of course the story may be flawed, but it is proven that there were captains and lieutenants in this Ulster Scot family during the early to mid 17th century.
Lynneage
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Billy Marshall, King of the Galloway gypsies, took a band of (presumably raggle-taggle) gypsies to fight at the Boyne. So that was three kings there on the day!
Skoosh.
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Apparently it is (in July 2010) "going to be reproduced in very near future"....
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On April 20 this year, I received the following from David Hume of the Grand Orange Lodge in reply to my inquiry about the Boyne account book: "Thank you for contacting us in relation to the Paymaster General’s book, now held in the Schomberg House archives. This book is in the process of being digitally photographed and will then be alphabetically categorised. This process will take some time and unfortunately we cannot assess this at present as there are currently no specifically dedicated staff for the archives. We are awaiting news of a grant application which would redress this significantly. I am therefore only in a position to hold requests for information on file and will contact you when we have further news."
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Well they have it nearly 2 years now........
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According to other contacts I have in Ireland, Mr. Hume's description of the Order's staffing situation ("... there are currently no specifically dedicated staff for the archives") actually means that the Archives has no staff at all. What work they are able to accomplish is done entirely by volunteers.
Also, I don't know if you've ever tried reading handwriting from the 17th century, but "categorising" what they're looking at is undoubtedly a challenge under any circumstance.
I've been hoping for 30 years that something like the paymaster's book would turn up. I shall try to be patient a while longer.
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I would be very interested in the Battle of the Boyne 1690 account book. A Robert Stanley, a Cpt. in King William's Army fought at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 & Athlone Castle in 1691.
Should anything further develop concerning the account book, I would be very interested in being advised. Thank you. :)
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This is October, 2012 now. I would guess that there hasn't been any word on the release of the information or a book preferably. :(
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What three Kings fought at the Battle of the Boyne? ;D
Skoosh.
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Hi,
William Third, Invited king of England
James Second Deposed king of England
Louis 14Th King of France
Regards
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William II, king of Scots.
James VII, king of Scots (absconded).
Billy Marshall, king of the Galloway gypsies.
Skoosh.
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This is October, 2012 now. I would guess that there hasn't been any word on the release of the information or a book preferably. :(
Oh it will be released "in the very near future......."
Why give it to a place that is pretty much closed, has no archivist?? What idiot in City Hall decided that??
I certainly don't expect it will ever see the light of day!
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There are several very good reasons for giving the account book to the Orange Order.
1. William III (William I of England and Ireland) was Prince of Orange of Holland.
2. The account book relates to those who supported him at the Boyne.
3. His supporters and men who shared their convictions in succeeding generations were (and I believe today are) called Orange Men.
4. It is such men who eventually formed the Orange Order.
5. The Order has been primarily responsible for keeping their history, including William's campaign in Ireland, alive for today's generation.
6. The Order is active, just short-funded.
Donations might help. In fact, perhaps we could all chip in a bit with designated gifts for the transcription and publication of the account book.
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I know who William was. I know he was Prince of the House of Orange. I know James was his Uncle. I know William's wife was James' daughter so she'd become Princess of Orange. I know that the Pope and Austrian Archduke funded William's army etc....
But as William was "of Orange"..and James was his uncle, was James "of Orange" too?
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Hi Annlinn,
"short of funds"? Have you seen the news this evening?
Regards
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William of Orange's claim to the English throne was through his mother, Princess Mary; through his father he was William of Orange.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England
"short of funds"? Have you seen the news this evening?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20150841
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No, James was not "of Orange". William inherited the Dutch principality of Orange from his Dutch lineage, not through his Scottish forebears, and Prince of Orange was his title before coming to Britain. Continental European borders have changed many times over the centuries, and today Orange lies in France rather than Holland.
And no, I haven't seen the news. I live in Pennsylvania, in the direct path of "Hurricane Sandy". Thankfully, there was no harm to life or limb and our home sustained only minor damage. But a tree fell across the road, taking down all the lines. We only got electricity back last night and cable just an hour ago. So, I've been both preoccupied and out of touch.
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I just found an "Irish Times" article which states in part: "The institution [Orange Order] has been awarded almost £4 million (€5 million) to build interpretative centres in Belfast and Armagh. Funding from the European Union’s Peace III programme will be used to revamp the Orange Order headquarters at Schomberg House and Sloan’s House."
Quite a tidy sum! Unfortunately, it is a designated gift from an EU peace program, and I doubt the EU peace program would consider studying and publishing documents from a war as meeting its goals and stated purpose. Everyone desires peace, so I even suspect the Orange Order might put the paymaster's account book from the Battle of the Boyne on hold for the sake of peace. Its discovery came at an unfortunate time in my opinion.
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Sorry Annlynn, however Aghadowey has put in a link which shows the news I was referring to.
Regards
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Thanks kingskerswell, and I'm sorry I overlooked the link before. If I'd been more observant, I wouldn't have wasted my time searching (haha). This is my take ... "Quite a tidy sum! Unfortunately, it is a designated gift from an EU peace program, and I doubt the EU peace program would consider studying and publishing documents from a war as meeting its goals and stated purpose. Everyone desires peace, so I even suspect the Orange Order might put the paymaster's account book from the Battle of the Boyne on hold for the sake of peace. Its discovery came at an unfortunate time in my opinion."
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Hi folks,
Just received an update from David HUME, OBE, Director of Services for the Orange Order.
"The Paymaster General's account book has now been digitally photographed and we are assessing the best means of presentation. It is also the intention to add to the alphabetical database of surnames ...
As you may be aware from media coverage we have received major funding to develop an interpretive centre and museum and this process of grant application has been very time consuming but ultimately worthwhile. The funding will enable additional staffing, which will help with the workload..."
So, sounds like:
a) images of the scriptive texts within the book have been safely captured for posterity;
b) efforts on their initial interpretion and conversion in to text data are ramping up.
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Orange is a small enclave in the deep South of France, near Avignon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange,_Vaucluse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Orange
The name derives ultimately from "Oranj", the Arabic name of the port in to which the new-fangled "Chinese apples" were first imported in to Europe.
Capt. Jock
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Thanks so much for the great news Jock! I'm glad I was wrong about my suspicions. When all else fails, patience pays off.
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Any thought of suggesting they approach FamilySearch to get it done? It's fast, it's free, and it's a huge resource already well-known and used by millions of researchers.
Sadly, there's still very little on there from Ireland. And as a volunteer indexer, I LOOK for Ireland projects to work on.
I'll write a note to FamilySearch.
Maybe you'd like to broach the idea with your contact at the Orange Order? It would be a big job for the Orange Order to go it alone, and not as readily found by genealogists.
www.familysearch.org
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Posted by kaye80
I was about to email the Orange order myself when I found this Rootschat conversation, so please let me know when you find out any more. I'm trying to trace a Colonel John Fishborne who was in Monasterevin, Kildare in 1721.
I'm currently writing a book on the Fishbo(u)rne family from County Carlow, so if anyone has an interest in them please let me know.
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I too would be greatly interested.
Oral family history has my ancestor, as a child, strangled by the Papists at his mothers funeral and presumed dead. They're hatred was so much for those that fought with King William. This child was raised in hiding , and a descendant of his Robert Mavity, came to America in 1760.
there are records that show the family name back then:
Cavan Muster Rolls of 1630 "Mawitie"
April 26, 1644 Company of Sir Patrick Wemys -Patricke Mavitty and Alexander Mavitty.
And a Patrick Mavitore in December 26, 1646 Garrison of Castle Trym under Captain Arthur Graham.
Looking forward to seeing this with great expectations!
Brian Mavity
WM Belt Lodge #18
Kerby, OR
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Well folks, don't hold your breath on anything happening anytime in the next couple of years, at least. :(
I wrote to Mr. Hume (see http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/visit-schomberg-house#.US7ug2dWjhE ), suggesting they might want to consider approaching www.familysearch.org to investigate the possibility of a partnership to get these records indexed and accessible quickly. Volunteers did 138 million records from the 1940 U.S. Census in about 5 months. There's not a doubt in my mind that these could be done equally quickly. FamilySearch is set up for it, they know what they're doing, they have an excellent reputation and many different partnerships, the indexing system is accurate, the records would be more readily found by researchers, etc.
His reply:
Hi Lori, thanks for this suggestion. I will have a look at it. We are currently in the process of closedown of our archives as we prepare for a interpretive centre being built and a new website. I will keep your email for discussion as we progress. Many thanks and look forward to keeping in touch.
:(
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I also am excited to see this paybook. I guess because they are in the midst of changes, is the reason my email to the Orange Order has gone unanswered. (Actually answered to tell me she was passing it on the appropriate person).
My ancestor fought in the Battle of the Boyne and family history has it that a piece of the battle banner of William of Orange hung on the wall of the family home. Too bad later descendants were only boys and it probably got thrown out.
Dianne
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Can anyone provide an update regarding access to copies or transcriptions of the 1690 paymaster's account book?
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Going back to the top of this page by TheWhuttle who wrote in 2012 and they said they had digitally photographed the records and there still hasn't been anything done with it, we may have try something else. As this is 2016, 5 years later what do you all think of getting in touch with them? Maybe if they see so many people wanting the to see the contents they will move faster. I think they have now moved into their new building, have they not? I don't know about any of you but I am not getting any younger and want to see my ancestor's name in the book. Many of us have been on here since 2011 waiting for news from them. Even if it was put into a book and sold them, I don't care.
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I visited the Museum of Orange Heritage at 386 Creagagh Road in Belfast in September 2016. This is their new center. The 1690 Account Book was on display under glass.
They have prepared an alphabetical surname index for the names that appear in the Account Book. I was able to check for my ancestors' names very quickly and easily. I did not find them.
I was told that the account book has 1400-1500 names which is far less than the supposed 30,000 soldiers in the army of William of Orange.
I arranged for my visit in advance by contacting the center through their Web site. It is my understanding that the Museum staff is willing to do look ups. I suggest contacting them through the Web site.
Michele
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I visited the Museum of Orange Heritage at 386 Creagagh Road in Belfast in September 2016. This is their new center. The 1690 Account Book was on display under glass.
They have prepared an alphabetical surname index for the names that appear in the Account Book. I was able to check for my ancestors' names very quickly and easily. I did not find them.
I was told that the account book has 1400-1500 names which is far less than the supposed 30,000 soldiers in the army of William of Orange.
I arranged for my visit in advance by contacting the center through their Web site. It is my understanding that the Museum staff is willing to do look ups. I suggest contacting them through the Web site.
Michele
;D I am in Australia, where it is currently March 2016. ::) and not yet anywhere near September 2016, but not to worry, I am interested in the 1690 Account Book, so many thanks for the update.
http://www.orangeheritage.co.uk/
Cheers, JM
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Sorry for the confusion. My visit to the Museum of Orange Heritage was in September 2015.
Michele
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@ M Michele, given the number of your ancestors alive in 1690 the odds are that you had folk on both sides of the Boyne.
Skoosh.