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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Churchie on Wednesday 02 November 11 08:55 GMT (UK)
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I have a large gap in my family - there were two Italian brothers who lived in the Wapping/Shadwell area, Raffaele and Saverio Ciaccia
They had many children, between 1814 and 1828, but I have never found a single birth record for any of them. Plenty of marriages and burials, insolvencies, censuses, but not a single christening.
I have concluded they may have been Catholic, so purchased the Catholic Family History London transcriptions volume 1, which covers several Catholic churches in the area. One of the brothers was a Godfather at St Mary Moorfields, but nothing else.
What I would like to get my hands on, is the Virginia Street Chapel in Wapping. I have the baptisms 1789-1800, and 1832-1840 is also available on CD, but not the crucial in between years. Any suggestions gratefully accepted.
Oh, and happy to do look-ups for St Mary Moorfields, St Aloysius, Westminster St Mary, St Boniface, Bavarian Embassy Chapel, assorted years between 1747-1862.
Cheers,
Caroline.
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Hi
Just seen that both brothers were married at Spitalfields Christ Church in Stepney. This is an anglican church so i imagine that their children would be baptised in an anglican church, just a thought.
Kevin
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Hi
Between 1754 and the start of civil registration 1st July 1837 excluding Jews and Quakers, it was illegal for any other non-conformists (not conforming to the rites of the Church of England) to marry in anything other than an Anglican church. That means in this period marriage in an Anglican church was no indication whether the couple were members of the Church of England, Catholic or any other non-conformist religion. The subsequent baptisms of any children are the real indicator.
Westminster Diocesan Archives seem to have a gap in the registers they hold
http://www.rcdow.org.uk/diocese/default.asp?library_ref=4&content_ref=517
It might be worth contacting the archivist to see whether there is any knowledge concerning the missing period in the register and whether that means it has not survived or not been deposited.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda, I shall contact them and see if they can help.
You've confirmed what I had thought - I also have many Huguenots in my family, and they all married twice - in their own church and in the Church of England to make it legal.
My Ciaccias all married in the Church of England, and the amount of other documentation to prove they exist makes me fairly certain they were christened somewhere else.
Raffaele Ciaccia used the name Raphael/Ralph Church whenever it suited him, which compounds the frustration. That's where my name has come from, so it's very important to me. I think I will have to invest in some more CDs...
Caroline.
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Hello Churchie,
You kindly offered to do lookups for the Bavarian Chapel.
I was wondering whether you are still able to do this and if so would you be so kind as to look for any Watson or Wickwar baptisms or marriages.
A marriage was registered in 1839 between Elizabeth WickNar (it should be Wickwar) and John Watson. The newspaper announcement says it took place at the Bavarian Chapel. I am trying to see whether this couple and the Watson family living at 30 St Georges Rd, Hanover Square in 1841, 1861 and 1871 are the same people. Sponsors at baptisms may provide clues.
Many thanks. Our local library does have a disc of Father Anstruther's collection of records which I have used before.
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Hello, yes I still have the disc, and here is your marriage.
I hope this helps - it has some additional names which should confirm what you need to know.
I'll have a look through the indexes for any more references to these names.
Happy New Year,
Caroline.
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Thank you Churchie! Having the mothers' names as well is an unexpected bonus.
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I've found some more Wickwars - mainly sponsors at baptisms between 1799 and 1835.
Let me know if you'd like full details for these:
1799 Joan, d of William More and Ann Wickwar
1801 Elizabeth Wickwar sponsor to Anne Moore, d of William and Anne (presumably same as above
1820 William Wickwar sponsor to James Butt (think I'm reading this correctly!)
1821 Joseph and Ann Wickwar sponsors to Joseph Butt
1838 Francis Wickwar sponsor to James Adams
Caroline.
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Oh, and there are lots of Watsons, but if you want me to search them can you narrow it down with some names?
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Thank you Churchie. These are very helpful and I recognise various members of the extended family.
The Watson children I am looking for are:
Agnes Mary, 1840
Edward Joseph, 1841
John, 1842
Joseph, 1844
Mary Teresa, 1846
Elizabeth, 1848
Other surnames that I am interested in are Coverdale, Holland and Thorpe, and maybe a daughter of Lewis Smith born between 1830 and 1833.
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The baptisms only run between 1748 and 1838, and marriages from 1747-1840, so I can't help with the Watsons.
The indexes only list surnames, so I have to go into each page, which means the christian names are not in any order, just as I found them. The baptisms names are a mixture of parents and sponsors.
1. I didn't find a child to Lewis Smith, but found a Louis Smith as a sponsor to 2 baptisms for Farrell children in 1831 and 1833.
2. A few Thorpes in baptisms, names:
1770-1792 Susan, Roger
1793-1819 Sara, Emily, Sophia, Emma, Frances
1820-26 Sara
3. One Thorpe marriage 1838 - Joseph Thorpe to Elizabeth Pearson
4. Lots of Hollands in baptisms:
1770-1792 William and Jane with 3 children- William, Jane, Elizabeth. Hana, Joan, Martha, Joanna, Ann
1793-1819 Mary, Timothy, George, Dorothy, Helen, Anne, Mary, John, Eleanor, Rose-Ann, Thomas, Patrick
1820-26 Joanna, Dennis, Mary, Margaret, John, Eleanor, Mary-Elizabeth, Honor, James and Mary
1826-31 Catherine, Mary, John, Honor, Helen, Patrick, William, Thomas, Daniel
1831-38 Ann, John, Lucy, Helen, Henry, William, Jeremiah, Patrick, George, Catherine, Thomas, Elizabeth, Edward
5. Some Hollands in marriages:
1792 Michael Holland and Eleanor Callaghan
1817 Thomas Holland and Joanna James
1748 Daniel Holland witness
1796 Richard Pinnock Holland and Elizabeth Holland witnesses
6. Coverdale - no baptisms, but a marriage in 1837 between Alfred Rymer and Appolonia Coverdale, widow of James Coverdale.
Have a look through this lot, and let me know if you want more details on any of them.
Caroline.
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Thank you very much for these Churchie.
Can you tell me more about the baptism of Sara Thorpe? I'm looking for the baptisms of children of Charles Thorpe and Ann Coverdale who married in 1819, and she may fit in. I've found three children to this couple so far. They lived in Norfolk and Buckland, Berkshire, but I thought the Wickwars were in Berkshire too at that time, yet they're in these records.
The Farrell family could be good a lead for Lewis Smith (he is a brick wall) so I'm extremely interested in those. Ann Thorpe (née Coverdale) was a witness at the marriage of a Lewis Smith to Mary Ann Coverdale in 1830.
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Hi again.
Sara Thorpe was the mother or sponsor in these baptisms. I did't find a baptism for her.
20 Nov 1818 Charles WALFORD b 18 Apr 1818 f John WALFORD m Sara THORP, sp Amelia Burne
23 Apr 1812 Mary HALL sp Sarah THORPE
9 Feb 1823 Julia WALFORD b 19 Nov 1822 f Charles WALFORD m Sara THORPE sp Emily Burne
13 Sept 1824 Louisa WALFORD b 28 Jul 1824 f Charles WALFORD m Sara THORPE sp Emily Burne
Lewis/Louis SMITH:
31 July 1831 John FARRELL b 7 July f Thomas FARRELL m Margaret HIGHLAND sp Louis SMITH and Elizabeth SMITH
24 Nov 1833 Ann FARRELL b 27 Oct f Thomas FARRELL m Margaret HALY sp Louis SMITH and Mary McHUGH
Do you think any of your people would have attended other catholic churches in the area? I have the complete set of CDs...
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Many thanks Churchie. That has given me a lot to go on with.
I'll see what I can find on the Farrells. The GRO is showing an Elizabeth born in 1841 in St James Westminster and the mother's surname is Hailand.
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I've just sent you a message. Oh, and funny, I don't even know your name!
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Churchie, as you would appear to have this CD, could you see if there was any mention of the McSweeney (or variants) family mentioned in the Virginia Street records (or any of the other RC churches in East London)? Vincent
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Hi Vincent, I have just started looking, and there are quite a few, so I am going to copy them into an excel spreadsheet.
Would you like to PM me your email address so I can send it to you?
Caroline.
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Dear Caroline,
Have forgotten how to do PMs so please contact on [email address removed]. Vincent
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Vincent, To send a PM just click on the person's board name. Then on the left hand side you'll see "Send PM"
Best to remove your email address from here
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Have sent Caroline a PM. How do I remove a message from here, or do I have to contact the moderator to do it? Vincent
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If you click on Modify (to the right of the thread title) you can remove your email adress. Maybe you can remove the entire post too. I don't know as I've never tried to do that
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Hi Vincent, I've asked the moderator to remove your post with the email address.
I'm working on your list of McSweeneys and hope to have it to you tomorrow 9night time here in NZ now)
Caroline.
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Hi Caroline!
I see that the email address has been removed. I look forward to getting your response. Ironically, I am working on this primarily to help someone in Australia who is descended from this family, and their relative in New Zealand. Long live international collaboration! Vincent