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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lynn S on Sunday 06 November 11 15:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Can anyone help with details of a marriage between Peter Sabey & a Dinah. They are baptising kids at Roxton in 1726 & 1735 when there are 2 sons named Peter. First one dies March 1726 & there's also a burial of a Peter in May 1773 but this is poss Peter snr.
Haven't found anymore children as yet so any info would be welcome.
Thanks Lynn
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These were all christened in Roxton to Peter Sabey and Dinah, all extracted records, from the IGI no marriage found. :(
Thomas ch. 11.4.1725
Peter ch. 24.8.1726... died 22.3.1727
Elizabeth ch.3.11.1727
Sarah ch. 9.11.1729
Jn ch.4.7.1731
Mary ch. 29.7.1733 ..... died 25.12.1734
Peter ch. 25.5.1735
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DINAH Saby, Married, Spouse Peter died 1736, Roxton, Bedfordshire
(Source Familysearch.Org)
Peter may have remarried with all those young Children.
Trish :)
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Hi Lynn
I've never really got into the Roxton branch, but I know that others have struggled with them.
Sabey burials in Roxton
22 Mar 1727 Peter
25 Dec 1734 Mary
4 Nov 1736 Dinah
23 Feb 1743 Civil
5 Sep 1750 Richard
21 Apr 1758 James
5 May 1765 Elizabeth
5 May 1765 Sarah
1 Nov 1772 Eleanor
16 May 1773 Peter (don't know if this is senior or junior)
27 Jan 1782 Joseph
8 May 1784 Elizabeth
Peter Sabey and Elizabeth baptised Mary in 1739 (extracted) followed by others, so this looks like the second marriage trish pondered about. But I can't find it.
David
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Hi Patrish, Trish & David
Thanks all for input on the Roxton Sabeys will have to start studying the map to see what parishes are nearby for marriages.
David I sent you a pm asking you about the family name connections between this branch & my Bolnhurst branch, did you receive it?
Cheers Lynn
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Bear with me Lynn. Still working on it.
David
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Hi Lynn
Your question was did I think there's a connection between the Bolnhurst Sabeys, where Francis was baptised aged about 30 and married on the same day in 1790, and the Roxton family. You mentioned that Francis' first daughter was Dinah in 1791.
I'd always assumed that Francis was the unbaptised son of one of the two Sabey families in Bolnhurst c1760, who were both non-conformist:
- Joseph Sabey who married three Elizabeths, the first one being Elizabeth Hall whom he married in 1751, she dying in 1769. They only baptised one child, William in 1752.
- John Sabey who may have been the John Sabey who married Elizabeth Hull in Wilden in 1741 and who had children in Bolnhurst from 1742 onwards. Some births of children of John Saby are recorded at the back of the parish register as being children of dissenters. In 1750 he is recorded as having eight people in the family, but this could have included servants. John left a will dated 1777 wherein he names children William, Sarah and James. No mention of a Francis, so I don't think they were the parents of Francis.
I had therefore thought that Francis was probably the son of Joseph and Elizabeth (Hall) Sabey of Bolnhurst.
The Roxton branch seems to have started with the arrival of Peter c1725. There's no marriage of Peter Sabey/Dinah in Hunts, unless it's under a Sabey variation that I haven't thought of. The Roxton Sabeys appear to have been of the established church, unlike the dissenter Bolnhurst branch. As Dinah died in 1736 she can't have been Francis' mother
The earliest burials in Hunts that show on the NBI were in 1727 in Gt Staughton, 3 miles from Bolnhurst and 6 from Roxton. I think it's likely that the Hunts families are connected to the Bolnhurst/Colmworth family, the connection probably occurring in the early 1700s
A while ago I looked at another Francis Sabey baptised at Eaton Socon, Beds, just a couple of miles along the A421, as it was known then, from Roxton. He was the son of Edward & Mary. I've drawn a blank with Edward too, who I assume to have been born c1756, but I can't find a burial for him.
But I really haven't seen anything that jumps out at me and makes me think that Francis was from Hunts. But worth looking at nonetheless, particularly as IGI/BVRI entries for Hunts are pretty sparse
David
OK, you win, you've got me interested in the Sabeys again! I'll see what else I can find about the Hunts branch
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Hi David
Have found a Peter Sabey who marries a Frances Abraham in Gt. Stukeley 28/1/1766. There's a burial for Peter Sabey in 1782 & Frances in 1781 at Gt. Stukeley. Baptism in 1768 for Peter Sabey son of Peter & Frances & burial in 1840 with birth year given as 1768. Also seen on the IGI a marriage of a Peter Sabey to a Frances Helen ? (no maiden name given). This couple went on to have Peter Sabey c. 17/3/1805 at Gt. Stukeley. I never know what info on the IGI to trust.
The Peter & Frances Abraham couple are the most likely ages to have been connected to my Francis but don't know how it could be proved.
Interestingly my Dinah Sabey married James Page & their daughter Sarah Page married Thomas Abrahams who came from Kimbolton.
Will keep digging .
Cheers Lynn
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Hi Lynn
Have found a Peter Sabey who marries a Frances Abraham in Gt. Stukeley 28/1/1766.
He was a widower. His first marriage was probably to Mary Hammett on 10 Jun 1759 at Gt Stukeley, both otp. There's a burial of a Mary Sabey at Gt Stukeley on 11 Nov 1764.
Also seen on the IGI a marriage of a Peter Sabey to a Frances Helen ? (no maiden name given). This couple went on to have Peter Sabey c. 17/3/1805 at Gt. Stukeley. I never know what info on the IGI to trust.
I can't see this marriage on the IGI. However Hunts marriage Index has a marriage between Peter Sabey of Leighton and Frances Harden at Grafham in 1791. The 1805 baptism of Peter was at Lt Stukeley, not Gt.
A good rule of thumb is that extracted entries on the IGI are reliable, member submissions aren't.
The Peter & Frances Abraham couple are the most likely ages to have been connected to my Francis but don't know how it could be proved.
I must stick my head above the parapet and say I don't think Francis was the son of Peter and Frances. Francis was baptised in 1790 age about 30 (although his age on burial in 1833 was 67, but burial ages aren't very reliable). Peter and Frances married in 1766 and then had two children in 1768 and 1770, although there's enough time to slip in another between Jan 1766 when they married, particularly if she was pregnant on marriage, and Sept 1768 when Peter was baptised. But I can't see any baptisms to Peter and Mary, where the timescale would fit better with age 30 in 1790. The Roxton and Gt Stukeley families don't seem to have been dissenters, unlike the Bolnhurst branch, and appear to have baptised their children in the established church. Why miss Francis?
Sorry, but I'll stick with my hypothesis that Francis was an unbaptised child (because his parents were non-conformists) born in Bolnhurst, who after marriage continued to be non-conformist. I'll never be able to prove it though. For me it sits better than an unbaptised child in Gt Stukeley, but whose siblings were baptised in the established church, who subsequently moved 18 miles to Bolnhurst where he took up non-conformity
Job for the day - trying to piece together the Hunts families!
David
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Hi David
Thanks for all the info. Just was clutching at the family christian name connection. Have found info on Francis & Charlottes' gt-grandson Richard Saby born illigit. to Ruth who was Samuel's daughter. This Richard was a definite black sheep !!! 1851 with mother Ruth, 1861 in Bedford gaol aged 13, not found him 1871 & 1881 but he murders Louisa Johnson in 1893 & is hung 18/7/1893.
Will let you know if I find anything else.
Cheers Lynn
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This couple went on to have Peter Sabey c. 17/3/1805 at Gt. Stukeley.
This Peter joined the navy and lived in Chatham and Greenwich. He had six children, by two different wives, three by each.
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Have found info on Francis & Charlottes' gt-grandson Richard Saby born illigit. to Ruth who was Samuel's daughter. This Richard was a definite black sheep !!! 1851 with mother Ruth, 1861 in Bedford gaol aged 13, not found him 1871 & 1881 but he murders Louisa Johnson in 1893 & is hung 18/7/1893.
One of the reports of the murder says that he was an ex sailor. Probably why we can't find him in 1871/81
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Hi Lynn
Bedfordshire Boy (I cannot give you the level of his knowledge!!) suggested I look at this topic but I have only done a little research into the Sabeys but think perhaps if you are looking for Richard SABEY (the sailor /murderer!) try looking for him as YERRAL - that was his alias!
Ruth SABEY d of Samuel Sabey 1793 Bolnhurst and Elizabeth
Ruth SABEY 1813 Keysoe married 1. aged 38 on 14 Apr 1851 St Cuthbert Bedford M003242 reg Bedford Apr-Jun 6 pg 31 to Thomas YERRALL 1795-1861 Colmworth Beds (Agr Lab)
Richard Sabey used the alias YERRALL http://apps.bedfordshire.gov.uk/grd/detail.aspx?id=23797
Richard Sabey alias Yerrall was convicted 3 Mar 1861 aged 13 prisoner Bedford Gaol sentence was 3 months hard labour for stealing bread and money. No previous convictions.
Although Ruth SABEY had five children when she married Thomas YERRALL two of her children, Richard and Joseph were baptised as Yerrall the same day with Eliza (the first child Eliza born to Ruth after her marriage to Thomas Yerrall ).
I assume then that Joseph Yerrall was the father of Richard and Joseph and had them baptised as his children after his marriage to Ruth. He did not have Ruth’s three other children (Charlotte, William and Betsey) baptised as his children. (my poor Betsey was born in Bedford Union Workhouse)
Richard 1847 christened as Yerrall on 13 Nov 1853 St Cuthbert f=Thomas m=Ruth
Joseph 1849 christened as Yerralll on 13 Nov 1853 St Cuthbert f=Thomas m=Ruth reg 1849 Bedford Q4 6 pg 38
Eliza Yerrall christened 13 Nov 1853 St Cuthbert f=Thomas m=Ruth
https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=25&query=%2Bsurname:YERRALL~ %2Bbatch_number:C003242
Ruth SABEY aged 56 married for a 2nd time reg )Bedford Q2 3b pg 647 married to James STANIFORD 1808 Wallgrave Berks
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Further to the post regarding Richard SABEY I found some newspaper articles which indicate that he was in the Army (not Navy) and lived in Liverpool. It also gives details of his wife (who he married in India) and a daughter and a child of the murder victim.
Richard Sabey hanged on 18 July 1893 for murder on 8 Feb 1893 of Louisa Sophie Johnson aged about 26 or 27 in Burton Latimer
Richard Sabey (known as Dick) aged 45 of Liverpool a Labourer had been a soldier in the Northamptonshire Regiment 48th, discharged and lived in Liverpool where he had lived with Louisa until his wife ‘a half-caste’ who he married in India returned. Louisa returned to Burton Latimer and obtained an affiliation order (dated 9 Feb 1893 at 3s 6d per week) for the support of a child. Sabey bought the knife in Liverpool and travelled to Burton Latimer on February 8th the day to murder. ‘Sabey surrendered himself to the police and said the Affiliation order being taken out by the victim was the reason for the crime’. He hoped his mother would not hear of his crime and was concerned for his daughter. His wife travelled from Liverpoolwith their daughter and visited him in prison. She said that since he had returned from India ‘he had at times behaved like a madman, drink upset him and he had been drinking heavily for the month before'. The defence said he had never recovered from severe sunstroke he suffered in India while in the Army and that also there was a history of epilepsy in Sabey’s family.
Richard Sabey was 45 in 1893 at the time of the murder therefore born about 1848
Richard was known as ‘Dick by Louisa’s family so perhaps he had known them in Burton Latimer before he and Louisa lived together in Liverpool. Her family had persuaded her to get the affiliation order. She was nearly 20 years younger than Richard. Although from Liverpool Richard was in a Northamptonshire Regiment (no army records found or marriage or birth record in India)
There is only one Sabey in Liverpool on 1901 Census Mary Sabey born 1874 but in Liverpool not India (a Newsagent).
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Hi Hemmum
Thanks for the info on Richard Sabey. I have seen on Ancestry details of one of his half brothers think it was a John Saby Yerrall who got himself into bother so will check this out as well.
Have you got Betsy Sabey in your tree? Have found her on the 1891 census as Betsy Staniford with mother Ruth who is shown as Lucy!!! Staniford.
Cheers Lynn
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Hi Lynn
Yes Betsey is in my tree.
William GUEST aged 20 Bach. (Housepainter) f=William (Shoemaker) and Betsey Sabey aged 19 (no occ. No father named (x)) both living Beckett St. married by banns 14 Aug 1864 at Holy Trinity Church Parish Church Bedford. wit= William PAGE and Ellen YERRALL
Betsey was born in Bedford Union workhouse.
Betsey registered her children as Betsy Sabey Guest.
I have seen Betsey in 1891 born 1847 Bedford =d with father ? James STANIFORD (Retired Sausage Maker) born 1807 Wallgrave w=Lucy 1817 Keysoe Beds living St Pauls Bedford (Betsey mother Ruth 1817 died Ruth STANNIFORD 1898 Bedford 3b pg 167).
I have no idea why Ruth was named as Lucy and assume that she as her mother had married James and Betsey was living with him she was in fact 'Lucy's' daughter not James's. He is not named on her birth or marriage certificate as her father. Ellen YERRAL however was a witness.
I have not found Betsey on the 1861 census. Her future husband William was with his parents living in Beckett Street (the address giving on their marriage certificate 3 years later.
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In the Police Illustrated news I found a couple of other deails about Richard.
We knew that he had been in the army but apparently he received an army pensions (no sure how long he needed to serve) I checked FindMyPast Pension records and he does not appear.
The article also mentions that Richard spoke to a 'neighbour Mrs Peacock, 33, Bridport Street Liverpool and mentions that this was 'caused by Tommy the lodger' so perhaps if he said that Louisa had 'decieved him' then perhaps Richard thought that he was the childs father and perhaps that is why he reacted when he was served with the affiliation order.
The article also said he was a married man with a family the eldest a daughter of fifteen years. It discribes Richard 'of medium build and looks like he might be a collier'
It also mentions that Louisa (the victim) had lived with Richard in Leicester some time before them being in Liverpool. So perhaps you may find Richard there.
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I know this is an old topic and at the risk of ‘flogging a dead horse’ I also wonder why Francis Sabey named his first daughter Dinah.
What if
The second Peter son of Peter and Dinah Peter Saby bap 1735 at Roxton Beds married
Mary Hammett 1759 at Gt Stukeley, both otp. Mary was buried at Gt Stukeley on 11 Nov 1764 (no children found)
Then Peter Sabey a widower married Frances Abraham in Gt. Stukeley 1766.
Peter died 1782 Gt Stukely. His wife Frances died 1781 Gt Stukely.
They had two children bap Gt Stukely (only Sabey bapts apart from Joseph 1778 s of Elizabeth)
Peter 1768 (?died 1839 Gt Stukeley married ?? a Francis Harden b abt 1777 (Ancestry Tree). children bap Little Stukeley. Peter 1805, Amey 1808, Ruth 1808, John 1810,)
Joseph 1770
Could Frances born circa 1760-1766 have been born before the second marriage in 1766 which is why he was not baptised until his own marriage? Did Francis name his first daughter after his grandmother Dinah?
Also mentioned
A while ago I looked at another Francis Sabey baptised (1785) at Eaton Socon, Beds, just a couple of miles along the A421, as it was known then, from Roxton. He was the son of Edward & Mary. I've drawn a blank with Edward too, who I assume to have been born c1756, but I can't find a burial for him.
No burial found for Edward but does this help?
Edw. Sabey bap 6 Oct 1751 s of Peter & Eliz.at Roxton Beds
(Edward and Mary's children bapt 1779 -1785 at Eaton Socon)
Did Edward marry?
Edward Sabey married Mary Fisher 11 May 1778 at Godmanchester, Huntingdon, Hunts
Was Edward related to Thomas Sabey (a Shepherd) born 1800 Bolnhurst possibly the s of Francis & Charlotte as Thomas Sabey and Ann Flowers had children bap Francis 1840 and Charlotte 1830 in Godmanchester?
There is also a Peter Seaby s of Thomas and Mary bap 1761 Harrold Beds who married Ann Errington in 1790 at Harold. Perhaps Peter's father was Tho Saby s of Peter and Dinah 1725 at Roxton Beds
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I also wonder why Francis Sabey named his first daughter Dinah.
Perhaps it was nothing more sinister than that they liked the name. Have you looked at his wife's side of the family to see it she had any Dinahs? Perhaps Charlotte's mother was Dinah.
What if
The second Peter son of Peter and Dinah Peter Saby bap 1735 at Roxton Beds married
Mary Hammett 1759 at Gt Stukeley, both otp. Mary was buried at Gt Stukeley on 11 Nov 1764 (no children found)
This is what I show in my tree with the warning that it's pure conjecture with not a shred of evidence. But there is another Sabey baptism in Gt Stukeley, on 4 Oct 1761 of John, son of Robert and Mary. There was only one Sabey family in Gt Stukeley at this time, Peter & Mary, and there's no trace of a Robert. I think Robert is a PR error, and it should be Peter, but that's unproveable.
Peter 1768 (?died 1839 Gt Stukeley married ?? a Francis Harden b abt 1777 (Ancestry Tree).
Unless the tree is mine I wouldn't place any credibility on Ancestry trees, and even if it were mine I'd still check it!
Could Frances born circa 1760-1766 have been born before the second marriage in 1766 which is why he was not baptised until his own marriage? Did Francis name his first daughter after his grandmother Dinah?
He could have been, but I don't think he was, and I don't follow the argument that the second marriage of his father was why his own baptism was delayed for 30 years.
Francis could have named his daughter after his grandmother I suppose, but it goes against naming patterns, where his own mother's name should have been used first, and is it really likely that he would have used the name of a grandmother who died 30 years before he was born?
I'm sorry but I'm still convinced that Francis was the non-conformist unbaptised son of the non-conformist Sabeys who were living in Bolnhurst at that time. To try to conjure up a scenario that he was the unbaptised son of Church of England parents living in Gt Stukeley, who baptised their other children, and that he then pitched up in Bolnhurst as a non-conformist, based solely on the speculation that he named a daughter Dinah after a grandmother who had died 30 years before he was born is too much for me. One can "what if" to the nth degree but there's not a shred of evidence to support it. If he'd been such a stickler for naming his children after his side of the family I'd have expected a son to be named Peter if Peter really was his own father.
There is also a Peter Seaby s of Thomas and Mary bap 1761 Harrold Beds who married Ann Errington in 1790 at Harold. Perhaps Peter's father was Tho Saby s of Peter and Dinah 1725 at Roxton Beds
Perhaps he was. Or perhaps he was from Northants.
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Thank you for your time and opinion and I am sure you are correct. I suppose I was just looking at all angles.
I did consider that Charlotte White's mother may have been named Dinah and her possible baptism (of course she could have also been NC but she was not baptised at her marriage like Francis which indicates she had been baptised as a child). From Charlotte's burial she was born about 1767.
The two baptisms I found were;
Charlotte King or White bap 14 Oct 1764 d of Bernard King and Ann White at Cranfield Beds (14 m S of Bolhurst)
Charlotte White bap 1 Nov 1767 d of Robythan [?Ephraim] and Elizabeth at Felmersham Beds (7 miles W of Bolnhurst) ?had brother Samuel 1770 NO Sabey on batch.
The second baptism fits her age better and Charlotte named a son Samuel but apart from that there is little else to link her to this baptism.
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I'm sorry but I'm still convinced that Francis was the non-conformist unbaptised son of the non-conformist Sabeys who were living in Bolnhurst at that time.
Now not quite so convinced, as I'm not so sure that both the Sabey families in Bolnhurst were non-conformist. John certainly was, but he didn't name Francis in his will. so I've ruled him out. But I'm not sure about the other family, Joseph, who might have been established church. But he didn't baptise any further children between 1752 and 1769 when his first wife died. But he remarried twice more each time baptising a child in the established church. In my own tree I'm continuing to show Francis' parents as unknown.
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............. I also wonder why Francis Sabey named his first daughter Dinah ?
OK if I follow all this ... Robythan White, widower married Elizabeth Aspitall, widow at Bolnhurst on 11 Oct 1766. They baptised daughter Charlotte in 1767 at Felmersham & then she marries Francis Sabey at Bolnhurst on 15 Nov 1790 & they have daughter Dinah 1791.
Elizabeth Aspitall was Elizabeth Elms & married William Asptall at Bolnhust in Apr 1760. Elizabeth 1735 is most likely is sister of Francis Elms 1741.... William Asptall was a blacksmith as was Francis Elms.
However Robythan White was previously married to a Dinah.... as Dinah White, wife of Rubenthan was buried at Bolnhurst 30 Mar 1764.
So my question is who was this Dinah - has anyone found their marriage
Thus Dinah Sabey is named after Charlotte's father's first wife ?... perhaps
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Hi John
Have also seen that a Henry White was buried at Bolnhurst in 1767 do you have any info on him?
Can't find anything on Robythan White on the IGI apart from births of Charlotte & Samuel so got stuck there. I'm descended from Dinah Sabey who married James Page they are my 3xgt-grands.
Cheers Lynn S
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Hi John
Just had a quick look on Ancestry & seen a Rueben White bap. kids at Wilstead there is a Thomas c. 16/12/1692 & 2 sisters but they die 1700 & 1704. Reuben buried 31/12/1710 & wife Mary buried 10/2/1709. Not found any other info on this Thomas but could poss be that he survives & names a son Rubythan or some variation. Not found anything on Dinah the first wife as yet will keep digging.
Cheers Lynn S
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............. I also wonder why Francis Sabey named his first daughter Dinah ?
Thus Dinah Sabey is named after Charlotte's father's first wife ?... perhaps
Thank you for the reality check John.
I've also seen it where the daughter of the second marriage appears to have been named after the first wife.
IGI member submission 9 Feb 1753 at Peterborough Cathedral, Northants. Bobitham White & Dinah Harris. If they were my ancestors I'd look hard at this one.
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What an enormous leap forward a big "thank you!"
I do notice that Francis as a given name really features in the Elms family. Off hunting.
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What if James son of John, the non-conformist, decided in 1790 that despite being known as James for the first 30 years of his life, he'd be baptised as Francis. Proving it would be totally impossible, but it would explain his non-conformity, his age could be about right and the place is right. It would leave James of Bolnhurst who died in Wilstead up in the air, but I've never been really comfortable with that one, although I can't see another James who it could have been.
Just a totally off the wall thought
Little Staughton and Keysoe Baptist Church books are the only stones left unturned, and you need to check the microfilms at your nearest LDS Family History Centre.
David
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John, In Thurleigh transcript what does it have to say about Elizabeth Sabey buried 1765? Wife of John, hopefully!
Thanks
David
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Yes David, she is the wife of John Sabey.... most likely of Backnoe Farm Bolnhurst, ne Hull, married in Wilden etc...
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Thanks John. That's what I was hoping for. She was dead by the time John made his will in 1777, but it's nice to be able to pin down a date, if only to narrow down the birth of son James
Not celebrating your first weekend of retirement in a local hostelry?
David
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If I have followed the recent developments (and I hope my notes are coherent);
Charlotte White bapt 3 May 1767 in Felmersham and married 1790 in Bolnhurst to Francis Sabey born between 1760 and 1763
Charlotte's father Robythan White had previously married in 1753 to Dinah perhaps Harris at Peterborough Cathedral Peterborough (seems grand!). Dinah White wife of Rubenthan was buried at Bolnhurst 30 Mar 1764.
Robythan White a widower then married Elizabeth Aspitall, widow at Bolnhurst on 11 Oct 1766. (these were Charlottes parents)
Charlotte White’s mother Elizabeth Elms had previously married William Asptall at Bolnhust in Apr 1760.
Robythan and Elizabeth had two children baptised in Felmersham. Charlotte in 1767 and Samuel White in 1770.
Samuel White possibly was the witness to Francis Sabey and Charlottes marriage in Bolnhurst in 1790. Francis and Charlotte probably named their first son after her brother Samuel.
Francis Saby and Charlotte named their first daughter Dinah.
It is significant that Dinah is name the White family. I have certainly seen before the practise of naming the first daughter of a second marriage after the deceased wife. Charlotte was baptised only 7 months after the marriage so Robythan and Elizabeth did not name their first daughter after his first wife. I wondered if Robythan and his first wife Dinah had a daughter Dinah after who Francis and Charlotte named their daughter (i.e Dinah step sister who she may have grown up with)? But I have not found a Dinah anyone bapt Bolnhurst during the period of the marriage 1753 and 1766 death of Dinah the wife or any Dinah d of Dinah in Beds, Northants or Cambs. Nor any evidence of the White family baptising children at Bolnhurst so although Elizabeth Elms may have been from Bolnhurst, Robythan was not (but of course there is the NC issue!)
Charlotte White’s mother Elizabeth Elms may have been baptised;
Elizabeth Elms d of Thomas and Elizabeth bap 9 Nov 1735 Bolnhurst Beds. Although the IGI gives her mother as Elizabeth I think this may be an error as all of the other children of Thomas Elms baptised between 1725-1741 in Bolnhurst give the mother as Ann (probably nee Wyott)
One of the other children of Thomas and Ann Elms was Francis Elms baptised 1741.
Francis Elms probably married twice the first time to Mary Hartop in 1769. His wife Mary was probably buried 1776 in Bolnhurst.
I wonder if there are any notes on Mary’s marriage or burial which may link her to;
Sarah Sabey (d of John) who married Thomas Hartop in 1771 at Bolnhurst. The marriage witnesses to Sarah Sabey’s were; Francis Elms & Thomas Spencer
Francis Elms was probably the brother of Francis Sabey’s mother in law Elizabeth.
This would link Francis Saby to the John Sabey farmer of Blackenoe NC but also to Joseph Sabey who married three times!! Who is also a possible father of Francis Sabey
Francis Elms also witnessed the marriage of;
Joseph Sabey widower, to Eliz Lovell widow on 4 Dec 1770 Bolnhurst
(The other marriage witness was Rachel Peck - Samuel Peck witnessed the marriage of Robythan White and Elizabeth nee Elm, the parents of Charlotte White)
Who was Francis Elms the marriage witness in 1770 and 1771?
Are there any notes on Francis Elms marriage to Mary Hartop 11 Oct 1769 at Bolnhurst or to Hannah Withrow 14 Feb 1779 at Bolnhurst Beds (also on Eaton Socon Batch)
Or perhaps to confirm the age of Francis Elms buried 1780 at Bolmhurst Beds.
This Francis Elms is probably the son of Thomas and Ann Elms baptised 1741 but strangely, I found an Adult baptism for Francis Elms born 1706 bap 11 Jun 1727 at Bolnhurst Beds.
Francis Sabey was baptised as an Adult on the same day he married.
Perhaps this Francis Elms was baptised so he could marry but I cannot see a marriage for Francis Elms around this time. Was he related to Joseph and John Sabey, by marriage would be helpful?!?
Francis Sabey 1760 was named after a Francis. Francis Elms is seems significant in the Sabey family and I wonder if Frances Sabey was named after a Francis Elms.
Then I found:
Bedford and Luton Archive Service. Reference P46/15/1
Title: Bond of Francis Elms, Bolnhurst, blacksmith, re expected child of Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, singlewoman. Date Free Text 14 May 1767
Francis Sabey was born between 1760-1763 so perhaps this child was not him.
Francis Elm married Mary Hartop in 1769 (after the birth of the child of Mary Sabey in 1767)
There was also possibly another Francis Sabey in Bolnhurst who was born 1706 and baptised 1727.
Who was Mary Sabey singlewoman in Bolnhurst in 1767 who had a child by Francis Elms. I cannot see a baptism for Mary in Bolnhurst?
It all seems a bit complicated but I would appreciate any other information or ideas!
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Francis Sabey 1760 was named after a Francis.
He was baptised aged about 30 as Francis. That's all we know. We don't know if he was named after anybody.
Francis Sabey was born between 1760-1763 so perhaps this child was not him.
Where do these dates come from? He was baptised aged about 30 in 1790. I would give that a couple of years either side, so perhaps as early as 1758. His age on burial in 1833 was 67. If accurate then that gives a birth of 1766. But burial ages were often inaccurate, as may have been the case here if his baptism age is anything like accurate.
If he really was the illegitimate son of Francis Elms and Mary Sabey then his birth would match up better with his burial age.
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We don't know if he was named after anybody.Sorry, just an assumption as most children were often named after a family member at that time.
Thank you for the correction on his burial age. Francis therefore was born between 1760 and 1766 and as you quite correctly say aged at burial are not always correct
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Who was Mary Sabey singlewoman in Bolnhurst in 1767 who had a child by Francis Elms. I cannot see a baptism for Mary in Bolnhurst?
I like this idea!
IF, and it's a big if, Mary was the daughter of the non-conformist John, then she died before 1777 when he made his will as she's not mentioned in it. There's a burial in Thurleigh in 1774 of a Mary Sabey. Is this her? If anysomeone has Thurleigh transcript and being newly retired has time on their hands perhaps they would be kind enough to have a look (thanks John!). It would explain why there's no baptism of Francis, and why he was non-conformist himself.
The entries in the back of Bolnhurst PR take on a new significance now that John has established that Sarah was 24 in the Marriage Licence Allegation of Oct 1771. One of the earlier births surely must have been William, but could the other have been Mary? I haven't got any other Marys in that part of Beds who would fit. But why would John not have made a bequest to his grandson Francis, if indeed he was his grandson, notwithstanding that he was illegitimate?
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Would much be revealed in the
Bond of Francis Elms, Bolnhurst, blacksmith, re expected child of Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, singlewoman. Date Free Text 14 May 1767
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Usually nothing more than what's in the extract.
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I'm not falling about laughing at this hypothesis!
What are the facts:
- Francis Sabey was baptised as an adult in 1790, at the same time as he married. The vicar may have insisted on it as he was under target that year, and he'd not have got his performance related bonus if he missed his target. He was said to be aged about 30. If he'd have been asked his age surely he'd have said 30 or 27 or whatever. "About 30" sounds like the vicar's guesstimate.
- on burial his age was given as 67, implying a birth in 1766. Again though, the age is someone else's idea, so may be inaccurate
- he was non-conformist
- he lived in Bolnhurst
Other known facts:
- Francis Elms and Mary Saby single woman of Bolnhurst were about to produce an illegitimate child in May 1767
- if Mary was of another parish Bolnhurst overseers would have removed her to her home parish pretty smartly, so it looks look fairly clear that her parish of legal settlement was Bolnhurst
- Mary Sabey could have been (I know, this isn't a fact!) an unbaptised daughter of John Sabey, a non conformist resident of Bolnhurst, of the Baptist persuasion who didn't do infant baptism
- in 1750 a census was taken in Bolnhurst which showed 8 persons in John Sabey's residence. Thus far I can only identify four, so Mary could well have been another child
- IF Mary Sabey, dau of John, gave birth to an illegitimate son in 1767 he wouldn't have been baptised as they were Baptists, so there'd be no record of him, as there isn't with Francis.
- IF Mary was a member of Keysoe Brook End Baptist Church she'd have been kicked out for fornication. Need to check the church book.
- IF Mary was the one buried in Thurleigh in 1774 and following John's confirmation, I think she was she wouldn't have been mentioned in John's will even if she were his daughter
Whilst hard proof may be impossible to come by, I think a good case can be made for Francis being the illegitimate son of Mary, who in turn was an unbaptised daughter of John the baptist.
And good luck when it comes to finding who John was!
David
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Just read all todays new info & am liking the illeg. theory. I know proving any of it will be nigh imposs. but you never know !!
Cheers Lynn S
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Or perhaps to confirm the age of Francis Elms buried 1780 at Bolmhurst Beds.
It would be very unusual to get an age on burial prior to 1813, and if there were then it would be shown on the NBI
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Just read all todays new info & am liking the illeg. theory. I know proving any of it will be nigh imposs. but you never know !!
Keysoe Brook End Baptist Church book is the most likely place to find any evidence, if indeed there is any
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David, the Thurleigh burial of 23 Nov 1774 is of Mary daughter of "J" Saby of Bolnhurst
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Brilliant, thanks John. I think you may have given me that one in the past, but I didn't know who it was as there was no baptism, and I'd assumed it was an unbaptised child of John, as opposed to an adult daughter of John. I'd not linked it to the bastardy bond, because I hadn't found the bastardy bond, nor had I thought it could have been a 29-32 year old - but that's what I think it was. Plenty of assumptions but they all centre around this one non-conformist family in Bolnhurst, which makes me think we're on the right track.
When someone said years ago about Francis "Where's the bastard hiding" I should have taken him literally!
Good find Hemmum!
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I had the burial Mary Sabey d of J of Bolnhurst burial 23 Nov 1774 and as there did not seem to be a baptism for Mary I wondered if she could be either the daughter of John who was NC or Joseph who was possibly NC. Now it seems that she was probably the d of John the Baptised which does appear to be a 'leap forward' for Francis!
I wonder who bought the poor boy up after his mother died? It does seem strange tat John the baptist did not mention him in his will.
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There was also possibly another Francis Sabey in Bolnhurst who was born 1706 and baptised 1727.
But you said earlier in your post that this was Francis Elms.
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There was also possibly another Francis Sabey in Bolnhurst who was born 1706 and baptised 1727.
But you said earlier in your post that this was Francis Elms.
David, it is Francis Elms, adult baptised about age 21 on 17 Jun 1727 at Bolnhurst
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Was he related to Joseph and John Sabey, by marriage would be helpful?!?
Or more pertinent, were Joseph and John Sabey related? If they were I haven't found the connection yet.
Francis Elms was brother in law to Thomas Hartopp, as he was married to Mary Hartopp, and if Mary Sabey was really the daughter of John then Francis Elms appears to have been the father of John's grandson.
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I wonder who bought the poor boy up after his mother died? It does seem strange tat John the baptist did not mention him in his will.
If Bolnhurst Overseers accounts have survived it might be interesting to see if any payments were being made and to whom - they had a bond from Francis Elms indemnifying them against any maintenance payments that they made. Francis Sabey would only have been around seven when his supposed mother died.
That he wasn't mentioned in his grandfather's will is the weak link in the theory.
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Looked at this bastardy bond this afternoon; dated 14 May 1767 Francis Elms of Bolnhurst, blacksmith is firmly bound to Soloman Safford - church warden & Thomas Russel - overseer to poor, for the amount of £80 regarding obligation toward Mary Saby of Bolnhurst, single woman who declared on oath that she is with child, & child is likely to be born bastard & that Francis Elms is father of child. In presence of French ? Flanders & Thomas Claridge
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I had the burial Mary Sabey d of J of Bolnhurst burial 23 Nov 1774 and as there did not seem to be a baptism for Mary I wondered if she could be either the daughter of John who was NC or Joseph who was possibly NC. Now it seems that she was probably the d of John the Baptised which does appear to be a 'leap forward' for Francis!
I can find just the four Sabey burials in Thurleigh - John of Bolnhurst, his wife Elizabeth, their son William, and Mary "daughter of J of Bolnhurst". I think it reasonable to assume that these are all one family - the non-conformists from Bolnhurst. As such, despite the lack of a baptism linking Mary to John and Elizabeth, the burial evidence provides it. When John gave me the details of this burial years ago I first thought that "daughter of J of Bolnhurst" indicated that Mary was a child, but I now, in the light of the Bastardy Bond, think it indicated merely that she was a daughter, albeit an unmarried adult.
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Charlotte White’s mother Elizabeth Elms may have been baptised; Elizabeth Elms d of Thomas and Elizabeth bap 9 Nov 1735 at Bolnhurst Beds. Although the IGI gives her mother as Elizabeth, I think this may be an error as all of the other children of Thomas Elms baptised between 1725-1741 in Bolnhurst give the mother as Ann (probably nee Wyott)
I agree this is a transcription error, Elizabeth's parents were Thomas & Ann Elms, Thomas Elms, carpenter married Ann Wyatt at Bolnhurst on 3 Oct 1723. They baptised 10 children at Bolnhurst 1724 to 1741 & buried 4 of them. Thomas buried 1751 & widow Ann on 14 July 1756. In her will dated 5 June 1756 she leaves 2/6 to son John; all household goods to daughters Elizabeth, Mary & Ann; one Ewe & one lamb to son Francis; & all the rest to son Thomas Elms who is also executor. Why the eldest son John 1726 didn't get the lot & it went to Thomas 1734 is unknown? The will was proved 31 July 1756 witnessed by William Milton, Joseph Archs & John Peck.
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Francis Sabey was baptised as an adult in 1790, at the same time as he married. The vicar may have insisted on it as he was under target that year, and he'd not have got his performance related bonus if he missed his target. He was said to be aged about 30. If he'd have been asked his age surely he'd have said 30 or 27 or whatever. "About 30" sounds like the vicar's guesstimate.
On burial his age was given as 67, implying a birth in 1766. Again though, the age is someone else's idea, so may be inaccurate
I agree the 'age about thirty years' stated on Francis Sabey's baptism on 15 Nov 1790 is guesswork, I suspect the vicar told him he wouldn't get married on that date unless he was baptised & the vicar also knowing he was the bastard son of Francis Elms & Mary Saby born just after May 1767. Also with both parents being dead Francis Elms in 1780 & Mary Saby in 1774, plus step mother perhaps Mary ne Hartop buried 1776 who was about to verify his age. If you take his age of 67 at burial on 15 Nov 1790 you get 1766 which tallies near enough to his birth. Who would have given that age at that time? if it was widow Charlotte, would she had said "well he must be as old as I am because we grew up together" While you feel might be inaccurate, compare this with burial at age 76 on 2 Apr 1843 of his widow Charlotte making her born 1767 which does tally with her birth/baptism, daughter of Rubythan & Eliabeth White.
My conclusion is that Francis Sabey is bastard son of Francis Elms & Mary Saby - but who can prove it, that's another matter.
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John. Thank you for your help, really brilliant!
Ann Elms buried on 14 July 1756. In her will dated 5 June 1756 she leaves 2/6 to son John; all household goods to daughters Elizabeth, Mary & Ann; one Ewe & one lamb to son Francis; & all the rest to son Thomas Elms who is also executor.
Shame Ann did not mention her illegitimate grandchild!
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Shame Ann did not mention her illegitimate grandchild!
He wasn't born for another 10 years!
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In her will dated 5 June 1756 she leaves 2/6 to son John; all household goods to daughters Elizabeth, Mary & Ann; one Ewe & one lamb to son Francis; & all the rest to son Thomas Elms who is also executor. Why the eldest son John 1726 didn't get the lot & it went to Thomas 1734 is unknown?
Probably because John had already been looked after - if there was real property involved that could have all been settled on him outside the will. He was given half a crown as a token amount to show that he'd not been overlooked
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Hi John
Do we have anymore info on John Saby of Backenhoe who married Elizabeth Hull at Wilden such as a d.o.b. ? If they married in 1741 I would think 1720 likely but hey ho you never can tell. Have found Thomas Elms on 1750 Bolnhurst census says churchgoer a Cottager paying £6 to landlord Mr Churchill number of people in house 9 occupation carpenter.
Cheers Lynn S
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Hope I'll do pending John's return
Joseph with his two wives, Mary and Katherine (Berry), had a dozen children in Colmworth, including John baptised on 9 Jan 1715/16. Three of their other children, Joseph, Luke and Catherine ended up in Southill Beds c1730. Unfortunately Southill PR and BT for 1730 is missing, so I don't have marriages for the two men. A John Sabey turned up in neighbouring Northill where he started baptising children in 1739. Once again there's no trace of a marriage. I have always assumed that he was another son of Joseph and Katherine the one baptised in 1716, who followed his half brothers to the Southill area, along with his full sister Catherine who married in Old Warden in 1739.
Which for me has always left the non-conformist John floating, the only Sabey non-conformist of that era that I've been able to identify. Was he connected to the Seelys of Thurleigh? I don't know, but the John born there seems to have died as an infant, and I'd want to see the PR before commenting on the Seely or Seeby debate. But they were still the wrong profession - tailors rather than farmers. Again though, Keysoe Brook End Baptist Church book may shed some light on John.
I have another branch of Sabeys in Henlow, near Southill, where James started baptising children in 1745. Once again I can't trace his marriage, nor where he was from. It seems a coincidence that all these Sabeys should have pitched up in mid Beds within 10 years of each other without there being a connection, but if James is connected to the Colmworth family I haven't found the link
I'm descended from both the Henlow Sabeys and Luke Sabey in Southill. The Bolnhurst lot I've followed mainly for academic interest!
David
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I also spotted the John son of Joseph & Katherine Sabey baptised at Colmworth on 09/01/1715. There was another Joseph & Mary Sabey baptising children at Colmworth at same time as son Richard baptised 12 Jun 1720, I have Catherine buried 28/4/1731. As John Sabey married in Wilden who is the Richard Saby, servant who married Rebecca Fox, servant also at Wilden on 26/3/1744. Is he John's brother?
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Further to the post regarding Richard SABEY I found some newspaper articles which indicate that he was in the Army (not Navy) and lived in Liverpool. It also gives details of his wife (who he married in India) and a daughter and a child of the murder victim.
There is only one Sabey in Liverpool on 1901 Census Mary Sabey born 1874 but in Liverpool not India (a Newsagent).
Louisa Sophia Johnson, the murdered paramour, was born in Cranfield Beds, and it was her sister who moved to Burton Latimer.
In 1891
living at 11 Court K, Bedford St, Leicester St Margaret were
Richard Seaby (on Ancestry as Sealey) head marr 43 Bricklayers lab b Bedford
Mary Seaby wife 47 b Gibraltar
Clara Seaby dau 12 b Malabar Coast (India)
Also living in Leicester St Margaret, 40 Lower Hill St was
Louisa Johnson boarder single 27 Servant domestic b Cranfield
So Richard and Louisa met in Leicester, skipped off to Liverpool at some time after Apr 1891, had a baby, Richard's wife Mary tracked them down, and it all turned very nasty from then on.
In 1911 Clara Ruth Seaby single 32 b Cannonore (now Kannur) India was living in Wimbledon. She died a spinster in 1945 in Tonbridge, age 67. It looks as though that Sabey branch fizzled out, unless of course you want to look for the Johnson orphan.
It's a quiet Saturday evening here in Carcassonne, my son's gone off with his mother for a long weekend in Barcelona, Monday being Armistice Day, and I had nothing better to do than to look up the murderer!
David
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Brilliant!!
Its wet here too!
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Francis Sabey was baptised as an adult in 1790, at the same time as he married. The vicar may have insisted on it as he was under target that year, and he'd not have got his performance related bonus if he missed his target. He was said to be aged about 30. If he'd have been asked his age surely he'd have said 30 or 27 or whatever. "About 30" sounds like the vicar's guesstimate.
On burial his age was given as 67, implying a birth in 1766. Again though, the age is someone else's idea, so may be inaccurate
I agree the 'age about thirty years' stated on Francis Sabey's baptism on 15 Nov 1790 is guesswork, I suspect the vicar told him he wouldn't get married on that date unless he was baptised & the vicar also knowing he was the bastard son of Francis Elms & Mary Saby born just after May 1767. Also with both parents being dead Francis Elms in 1780 & Mary Saby in 1774, plus step mother perhaps Mary ne Hartop buried 1776 who was about to verify his age. If you take his age of 67 at burial on 15 Nov 1790 you get 1766 which tallies near enough to his birth. Who would have given that age at that time? if it was widow Charlotte, would she had said "well he must be as old as I am because we grew up together" While you feel might be inaccurate, compare this with burial at age 76 on 2 Apr 1843 of his widow Charlotte making her born 1767 which does tally with her birth/baptism, daughter of Rubythan & Eliabeth White.
My conclusion is that Francis Sabey is bastard son of Francis Elms & Mary Saby - but who can prove it, that's another matter.
I think I can help prove it, or disprove it. My nephew is a direct descendant of Thomas Sabey (Bolnhurst 1800-1852) in the male line. If Francis Sabey is Thomas's father (right place, right time, see other forum posts which discuss this) and Francis Elms is Francis's father, then my nephew's Y-DNA will be Elms, not Sabey. It has been tested and I just need a male Sabey to compare it with, or an Elms. So if you know of anyone who would be a suitable candidate to test, please let me know.