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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: MattH on Tuesday 08 November 11 04:11 GMT (UK)

Title: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Tuesday 08 November 11 04:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Justin,
I, too, am in need of deciphering help. I'm really a novice at looking at Kurrent as I've been researching more Dutch records and am more used to reading Dutch. I have what I know/can make out listed below and will attach the picture of the baptismal record. This is a sister of one of my Swiss ancestors (Rosina Susanna Schneider). I chose it because the other siblings' records were harder to make out. Thanks for the help!

1839
April 21 ______ _______

Friedrich Schneider Friedrichs Sohn van _____
___ __________ _______ in Thun

Rosina Susana Müller Abrahams dochter __ Thun

___ Thun (?) 1835 Marz 13



Moderator Comment:  split off from another topic
Title: Re: Swiss baptismal record help!
Post by: apwright on Tuesday 08 November 11 06:16 GMT (UK)
1839
April 21
Eine eheliche Rosina Susanna
geboren 22. März
Elt[ern]
Friedrich Schneider Friedrichs Sohn von Stalden
Kg.[=Kirchgemeinde] Münsingen Gärtner in Thun.
Rosina Susanna Müller Abrahams Tochter aus Thun.
Cop[uliert] Thun 1835 März 13.
=======

1839 April 21, legitimate daughter Rosina Susanna born 22 March.
Parents
Friedrich Schneider, Friedrich's son, from Stalden in the parish of Münsingen, smallholder resident in Thun.
Rosina Susanna Müller, Abraham's daughter, from Thun.
Married at Thun in 1835 on March 13.

Stalden (im Emmental) is now part of Konolfingen in the Canton of Bern. It belonged to Münsingen parish until 1911.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konolfingen
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D3290.php

Adrian

Moderator Comment: topics merged
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: JustinL on Tuesday 08 November 11 07:20 GMT (UK)
Eine eheliche Rosina Susana
Friedrich Schneider, Friedrichs Sohn, von ? geboren 22. März
Kg [Kirchengemeinde] Münsingen, Gärtner in Thun
Rosina Susana Müller, Abrahams Tochter aus Thun
Cops Thun 1835 März 13.


A legitimate Rosina Susana
Parents:   Friedrich Schneider, Friedrich‘s son, from ?, born 22nd March
      Parish of Münsingen, gardener in Thun
      Rosina Susana Müller, Abraham‘s daughter, from Thun
Married Thun 1835 March 13

I can't quite make out Friedrich's place of origin/birth.

Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: apwright on Tuesday 08 November 11 07:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Justin,
He posted this in Deciphering & Recognition too...  ::)
http ://www .rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,565138.new.html#new  Moderator Comment: now merged here

Adrian

P.S. You probably know this (just explaining for MattH's benefit!), but the bar above the N in "Susana" indicates doubling, i.e. n with bar = nn.
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: JustinL on Tuesday 08 November 11 12:41 GMT (UK)
Hello Adrian,

I did know that, but in my haste to be first to reply I had overlooked it. And, you beat me anyway  >:(

Cheers,

Justin
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: MattH on Tuesday 08 November 11 13:22 GMT (UK)
Justin and Adrian,
Thank you so much for your help! I look up what a Gärtner was and it said "gardener, nursery man, horticulturalist." That part interests me a lot since I wasn't aware of any of my ancestors having that kind of occupation. I wonder if his father was one as well? I have more Swiss ancestors that I would love for you to help me decipher their records, but let me use this record as a guide to reading Kurrent and then if I get stuck, I'll post here again. Thanks again for your help!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: apwright on Tuesday 08 November 11 13:41 GMT (UK)
Hi Matt (welcome to the forum, by the way!)
Although Gärtner does usually mean "gardener, nursery man, horticulturalist" in modern usage, in the context of old German occupations it generally means a smallhold farmer who leased his land from an estate owner. Variations such as Freigärtner, Pachtgärtner, Robothgärtner, Dreschgärtner etc. indicate different sets of obligations with respect to the landowner.
Some explanation here: http://treeclimbingwithsonja.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-farmer-i-always-wanted-to-know.html
However, while the above applies to Germany, particularly north-eastern Germany, how far it is applicable to Switzerland I don't know...

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: MattH on Tuesday 08 November 11 21:33 GMT (UK)
Adrian/Justin,
Here are two more records I need help deciphering. The top one is the baptismal record from my fourth great-grandmother, Maria Rothlisberger, who was born in Langnau. The second is from my third great grandmother, Magdalene Messerli. While I'm more interested in understanding the entire record, if all you have time for is to decipher the occupation of the fathers, that's fine with me. Thanks for your time and help!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: JustinL on Wednesday 09 November 11 07:55 GMT (UK)
Matt,

Here's a quick response. The place names are the hardest words to read:


Mathys Röthlisberger, Ulrich’s son, from Langnau im Hambühl (no occupation given)

Johannes Messerli, Johann’s son, from here, master carpenter (Zimmermeister)

Justin
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Wednesday 09 November 11 15:58 GMT (UK)
Röthlisberger
1839
Aug. 4. - Maria - geb[oren] 24. Jul. - zu Signau.
Par[entes]
Mathys Röthlisberger, Ulrichs, von Langnau, im Hambühl
Anna Wermuth, Joh[ann] Ulrichs, von Eggiwyl.
Test[es]
Ulrich Reiner, von Signau, im Hämeli
Anna Röthlisberger geb[orene] Lüthi, zu Ramsey
Elisabeth Wermuth, der Mutter Schwester.


August 4, Maria, born 24 July, at Signau.
Parents:
Mathys Röthlisberger, son of Ulrich from Langnau, [residing] at Hambühl
Anna Wermuth, daughter of Johann Ulrich, from Eggiwyl.
Witnesses:
Ulrich Reiner, from Signau, at Hämeli
Anna Röthlisberger nee Lüthi, at Ramsey
Elisabeth Wermuth, the mother's sister.

======
Sonntag den 31ten Christmonats
Eltern
Johannes Messerli, Johanns von hier,
Zimmermeister, im Eggen.
Magdalena Roth geb[orene] Grünig, vom Buch-
holterberg.
Cop[uliert] Thun 23 Januar 1841
Kind
Magdalena geb[oren] d[en] 19ten Dec: 1843.
Zeugen
Samuel Hahni von Rüggisberg.
Anna Wenger geb[orene] Krebs, Christians
Wittwe von hier, im Höstettli.
Elisabeth Messerli geb[orene] Stübi, Jakobs Ehe-
frau von hier.


Sunday 31 December
Parents
Johannes Messerli, son of Johann from here, master carpenter, residing at Eggen.
Magdalena Roth nee Grünig, from Buchholterberg.
Married at Thun 23 January 1841
Child
Magdalena born 19 December 1843.
Witnesses
Samuel Hahni from Rüggisberg.
Anna Wenger nee Krebs, widow of Christian from here, at Höstettli.
Elisabeth Messerli nee Stübi, wife of Jakob from here.

Many of the places are old farms/estates, now hamlets of just a couple of houses.
Hambühl, Hämeli and Ramsey are on the hills between Signau and Eggiwyl (=Eggiwil).
Google Earth/Maps coordinates:
Hambühl 46.90105 7.75952
Hämeli = Hinterfuhren/Hinderfuure 46.90004 7.75011 (now a pub and an open-air theatre!)
Ramsey = Ramsei 46.91022 7.75372

Where was the church in your second record?
Buchholterberg and Rüeggisberg are down towards Thun. Höstettli is just outside Wattenwil at 46.76585 7.50218.
There are several places called Eggen in Bern Canton, five of them between Rüeggisberg and Thun! So I've no idea which one is meant here. Perhaps whichever is closest to the place where the baptism was held.

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Wednesday 09 November 11 19:40 GMT (UK)
Justin,
Thanks for the information. I'm trying to find a record that might have an occupation for Mathys Rothlisberger and haven't been successful. I've posted his marriage record. Maybe you can decipher whether or not there's something interesting on there.
Also, for some reason, I had a difficult time finding this post from the link in my e-mail. I wonder what the problem is?
Anyway, thanks again!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Wednesday 09 November 11 20:27 GMT (UK)
Röthlisberger Mathys Ulr[ichs] von hier, im Hambühl K[irche] Signau
Auszüger, get[auft] 25t Merz 1803. Einzug bezahlt.
Anna Wermuth Hans Ulr[ichs] von Eggiwil get[auft] 18t aug. 1811.


getauft = baptised
...and you can probably work out most of the rest :)

Bit hard to explain Auszüger and Einzug bezahlt, but I'll try...
Auszug = lit. moving out, Auszüger is literally one who moves out
Einzug = lit. moving in
bezahlt = paid for
What all this means is that Mathys's father Ulrich was the farmer in charge at Hambühl farm.
But now that Mathys is getting married, he has come into his inheritance and is taking over the farm. Ulrich is "moving out", i.e. retiring and usually moving to a smaller dwelling on the same farm, and Mathys is "moving in", i.e. taking over the farm and settling in the main house with his new wife. This takeover is obviously subject to some sort of ownership transfer fee/inheritance tax, and the record shows that this has been paid, so everything is OK.
I don't know if there's a concise English equivalent expression for this procedure, but a short translation for Auszüger in this case would be something like "retired farmer".

Hope this helps!
Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Wednesday 09 November 11 20:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Adrian! What probably would help knowing is that Ulrich had less than a year to live, which explains why the transfer. I may need more help later, but this is perfect for now!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: JustinL on Thursday 10 November 11 07:31 GMT (UK)
Adrian's description of an Auszüger certainly applies to Germany. However, in Switzerland, it seems that an Auszüger was a soldier in the local militia.

Have a look here, Adrian. http://www.rootschat.com/links/0gs0/

The opening paragraph reads:

Die Auszüger sind bestimmt, den Dienst im Canton und als Zuzug bey einer Eidgenößischen Armee zu verrichten, und sollen demnach als ein auserlesenes Corps von verschiedenen Waffen, vorzüglich wohl im Dienst unterrichtet auch nach und nach auf Kosten der MilitairCassa bewaffnet und gekleidet werden.

The Auszüger are to perform military service in the Canton and as reinforcement for the Federal Army, and shall accordingly, as a variably armed separate Corps, be preferrably instructed in service and, gradually, armed and clothed at the expense of the Military Exchequer.

Rgds, Justin


Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Thursday 10 November 11 10:05 GMT (UK)
Hmmmm, you might be right there, Justin! (Sorry, Matt!)
However, see p.95: Auszüger were (normally, with a few exceptions) men of the erste Altersklasse, i.e. unmarried men between their 20th and 31st birthdays. Mathys is older than this, if baptised in 1803 and married in 1836, and Ulrich would be in his 50s at least.
Perhaps colloquially the word could refer to any militiaman??

I've also been thinking about "Einzug bezahlt". I don't think now that it has anything to do with inheritance, or even with the militia (you didn't pay to join up; you were conscripted by lots. But perhaps you could pay to be exempted?).
In Switzerland if you married someone in a different parish from your "home" parish, you had to pay to be admitted to the new parish. This "admission fee" was called the Heiratseinzug, which I think is what is meant here, as Mathys was from Signau parish and Anna came from Eggiwil.

Matt, can you please tell us where this marriage took place?

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: JustinL on Thursday 10 November 11 10:38 GMT (UK)
I hope you can read German, Matt, because the book that I found on google makes interesting reading.

For men conscripted as Auszüger after 1st Jan 1818, military service lasted 12 years!! It would seem that Mathys was still serving, having been called up anytime between c1823 and c1833 (his 19th and 30th birthdays).

Adrian - I tend to agree with your interpretation of the Einzug payment. I have come across it in Bavaria as well.

Justin
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 10 November 11 13:54 GMT (UK)
Justin and Adrian,
Thanks for all of this new information and sorry for not getting back with you sooner. Mathys's marriage to Anna Wermuth took place in Langnau in Emmental. I also have Mathys born there as well, although I haven't personally seen the books.
I'll have a look into that book. My German is decent, but it'll take me a bit to read it since the type is old. I am aware of the current Swiss requirements for army service, but I don't think it's as grueling as 12 years!
Just for your information as well, I have Ulrich's death in 1835 in Langnau, which means he was dead by Mathys's marriage. I've also posted the death record of Mathys for you to read/decipher.
Anyway, let me know if you find anything else. I love learning about the social context of these people's lives. Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 10 November 11 14:29 GMT (UK)
I just found Ulrich's death registration for you to read. Maybe there will be something of interest in there. I do know his father was Ulrich, although I cannot make out if that's mentioned in here.
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Thursday 10 November 11 15:50 GMT (UK)
Röthlisberger: Mathys, Ehefraumann der Anna Wermuth, von hier, im Wilds-
guthölzli. - Gest[orben] (:von einem Trämel erschlagen:) 3. Mart 1847.
Beerd[igt] in Signau d[en] 6t ejusd[em] - 44 Jahre alt.


Röthlisberger: Mathys, wifehusband of Anna Wermuth, from here, at Wildsguthölzli. - Died (struck by a [felled] tree trunk) 3 March 1847. Buried at Signau on 6th of the month - 44 years old.


Ulrich Röthlisberger von hier; ein Ehemann; Küher u[nd] Lehmmann
zu Grächwil, starb daselbst 29t Nov. 1835 begraben zu Meykirch 3t Dec.
alt 61. Jahre - (Lungenentzündung.)


Ulrich Röthlisberger from here; a husband, cattleman and potter, at Grächwil, died in that place on 29 Nov. 1835, buried at Meykirch on 3 Dec., aged 61 years - (pneumonia.)


Wildsguthölzli 46.89685 7.75548
Grächwil 47.01552 7.37527
Meykirch = Meikirch 47.0087 7.3650
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 10 November 11 16:38 GMT (UK)
Wow! That's fantastic! I've been researching Dutch records for years and never found a cause of death notice on any record. It makes me wonder who else might be good to put on here....Anyway, great work, Adrian and Justin.
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: JustinL on Thursday 10 November 11 17:47 GMT (UK)
I take my hat off to you, Adrian. The place names are all so alien to me, I would never find them.

Matt, when viewing an old book on google.books you can switch to plain text. A few of the characters come out distorted, but it should make reading easier for you.

Justin
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 11 November 11 02:09 GMT (UK)
Adrian/Justin,
Just to help me fill out more of the lives of these ancestors of mine, I've attached Mathys Rothlisberger's birth registration. I know that his father was Ulrich and his mother was Verena Herrmann. I can't make out what it says after their names except for "von hier." Any help you might be able to give will be appreciated. (By the way, the last column is a list of the witnesses.)
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Friday 11 November 11 13:04 GMT (UK)
Col.2 (parents)
Ulrich von hier; wohn-
hafft im ?Gringlenbach-Boden
Verena Herrmann
von hier

Col.3 (child)
März 25ten
Mathias

Col.4 (witnesses)
Hans Herrmann
Hans ?Frank
Magdalena Röthlisberger
von hier

wohnhaf(f)t = resident


?Gringlenbach-Boden is probably what is referred to in Durheim** vol.2 (1838), p.114, as Grindelbachboden (a house and outhouse on the estate of Grindelbach in Langnau parish).
Google Earth 46.946195 7.821804
The three farms just north of there are (clockwise from top) Ober-Grindlen, Unter-Grindlen and Ausser-Grindlen. Grindelbach is now Grindlebach.

**Durheim, Karl Jakob: Die Ortschaften des eidgenössischen Freistaates Bern:
Vol.1 http://books.google.com/books?id=2d5AAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover (pdf 230 MB)
Vol.2 http://books.google.com/books?id=NVFCAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover (pdf 125 MB)
Vol.3 http://books.google.com/books?id=QEBCAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover (pdf 59 MB)

1880 map from http://www.apps.be.ch/geo/
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 11 November 11 18:44 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Thanks for the all of this great info! I don't mean to be taking up a whole lot of your time, but, I have found a record from my German ancestors that I need help deciphering. This one may be a bit hard since the type is so bold. This is a marriage record from Zyriak Herzog and Monica Stuckle. They lived in around Bonndorf in Baden, Germany; so at least it's not too far away from Switzerland :)
Anyway, the record was on two different pages, so I had to chop them up as well. Hopefully, you'll be able to make some sense out of it! I know I can recognize some things like dates and some locations like Sigwart and Bonndorf. I'm hoping that this will reveal some occupations as well. Maybe Justin has some good experience with German records? Anyway, let me know if you need any questions answered. Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Friday 11 November 11 19:43 GMT (UK)
Is this yours, Matt??  :)
http://www.gremmert.com/getperson.php?personID=I29766&tree=ardeneva

Im Jahre 1835 den 24ten September, wurden mit Bezirks-
amtlicher Bewilligung vom 5ten und 22ten September
No.3445, zu Bondorf getraut der ledige Nagelschmied
Zyriak Herzog, ehelicher Sohn des Anton Herzog,

und der Liberate Schafrath von Schwarzhalden, geboren
den 2ten August 1808, und die ledige Monika Stuckle, ehe-
liche Tochter des Franz Joseph Stuckle, und der Anna
Maria Siegwart von Bondorf, alt 23 Jahre.
Zeugen: Thomas Vogt, Bauer von Grafenhausen, und
Johann Büche, Taglöhner von Bondorf.
Bondorf am 24ten September 1835 [signature] Decan und Pfar[rer]


In the year 1835 on 24th September with the district council's authorisation of 5th and 22nd September No.2445, there were married in Bondorf the unmarried nailsmith Zyriak Herzog, legitimate son of Anton Herzog and Liberate Schafrath from Schwarzhalden, born on 2nd August 1808, and the unmarried Monika Stuckle, legitimate daughter of Franz Joseph Stuckle and Anna Maria Siegwart from Bondorf, aged 23 years.
Witnesses: Thomas Vogt, farmer from Grafenhausen, and Johann Büche, casual labourer from Bondorf.
Bondorf, 24th September 1835 [signature] Dean and Vicar

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Saturday 12 November 11 04:13 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
First off, thanks for the translation and deciphering. Second, yes, that's Zyriak, although that's not my website. I'm only familiar with that one. Also, for some reason, I had already known that Zyriak was a nailsmith and don't know why I forgot that...Anyway, thanks again! I think I'm going to take a little bit to analyze this information and hopefully it'll help me find out more about these ancestor's lives. Thanks to you, and to Justin!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 16 December 11 15:01 GMT (UK)
Adrian and Justin,
I'm in need of your deciphering skills again. This time, I'm researching another part of my Swiss ancestors. I have been going through my records for the Messerli family and am wondering if this record below is a birth record of Barbara Traschel. I have down that she was born on Oct 6, 1758, and this was the record that came up. From the looks of it, it sure doesn't look even close to being a match, but, you'll have to see for yourselves. Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 16 December 11 15:14 GMT (UK)
Actually, hold off on that deciphering job. I was able to find the actual baptismal record for Barbara and it was in 1748 not 1758. So, sorry for getting your hopes up.... We'll be in touch, though, in the future, I'm sure!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Saturday 17 December 11 18:20 GMT (UK)
Justin and Adrian,
Here IS a record I need help deciphering. Its the marriage entry for Hans Messerli and Anna Berger. Hopefully, you can make out some of those hard-to-read words. Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Sunday 18 December 11 12:39 GMT (UK)
Hi Matt,
This is two marriages on the same day (eadem), or perhaps even at the same time - a double wedding - maybe the two Anna Bergers were cousins.

Wattenwil
d[en] 5. July sind eingesegnet worden
Hans Mässerly
Anna Berger
beyde v[on] Wtwl [= Wattenwil]

eadem.
Hans Hirschi auß dem Schangnau u[nd]
Anna Berger v[on] Wtwl. [= Wattenwil]

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Monday 19 December 11 03:49 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
That would explain it. I saw two Anna Bergers and thought that the second one might have been a witness or something.
I have one peculiar record from my German side that I need a little help with. I found a record for a child's birth to Monika Stuckle. As far as I know, the child had no name, and died on the day it was born. However, I would like to see if the following record gives an age to Monika. If she is MY Monika, she would be roughly twenty years old. I've attched both the birth and death registration records for you to see. They are also available here:
Birth:
https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/bild_zoom/zoom.php?bestand=10028&id=2239834&gewaehlteSeite=05_0000471452_0153_5-471452-153.png
Death:
https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/bild_zoom/zoom.php?bestand=10028&id=2239837&gewaehlteSeite=05_0000471455_0169_5-471455-169.png

Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Monday 19 December 11 04:42 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Not to add to your load already, but I have one other record I just found for Anton Herzog. I would appreciate a decipher of the record, if possible. I know it's cut off at on the left, which may make it hard. I was actually able to make out some of the words, like 76 years old, the year 1837, and his wife's name (which I knew already) Liberata Schafrath. Anyway, thanks for the double-duty!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Monday 19 December 11 12:49 GMT (UK)
Taufbuch 2
No.12. todtgebor[en] männlich.
Im Jahre 1832, den 3tn May, Nachts 10 Uhr wurde
zu Bondorf todtgeboren ein männliches Kind der
ledigen Monika Stuckle, einer eherlichen Tochter des
Schloßermeisters Stuckle von Bondorf.
Bondorf den 3tn May 1832. [signature] Decan u. Pfarrer


Register of Baptisms 2
No.12 stillborn male
In 1832 on 3 May at 10pm there was stillborn at Bondorf a male child of the unmarried Monika Stuckle, a legitimate daughter of master locksmith Stuckle of Bondorf.
Bondorf, 3 May 1832. [signature] Dean and Vicar

=====
No.17. todtgebor[en] männlich.
Im Jahre 1832, den 3tn May, Nachts 10 Uhr wurde zu
Bondorf todtgeboren, und den 5ten May, Abends
3 Uhr daselbst begraben ein männliches Kind der
ledigen Monika Stuckle, einer eherlichen Tochter des
Schloßermeisters Stuckle von Bondorf.
Zeugen: der Leichenschauer Albert und der Meßner
Binder von Bondorf.


No.17 stillborn male
In 1832 on 3 May at 10pm there was stillborn at Bondorf, and buried at that place on 5 May at 3pm, a male child of the unmarried Monika Stuckle, a legitimate daughter of master locksmith Stuckle of Bondorf.
Witnesses: the coroner Albert and the sacristan Binder from Bondorf.

=====
Im Jahre Tausend achthundertdreisig und sieben, den ersten
Merz Nachts ein Uhr starb in Schwarzhalden und wurde
am dritten Merz vormittags halb neun Uhr in Schluchsee
beerdigt - Anton Herzog - Bürger und Leibgeding-Ge-
nießer in Schwarzhalden, Ehemann der Liberata Schaf-
rath von Schwarzhalden; alt 76 Jahr.
Zeugen der Beerdigung: Conrad Ebner, verehlichter
Bürger und Bauer von Schwarzhalden; ?Melchor Morat
verehlichter Bürger und Bauer von Faulenfürst.
Schluchsee d[en] 3 Merz 1837.
Josef Kehrmann Vikar.


In the year one thousand eight hundred and thirty seven, on the first of March at 1am, Anton Herzog, townsman and retired farmer at Schwarzhalden, husband of Liberata Schafrath of Schwarzhalden, died at Schwarzhalden aged 76 years, and was buried on 3 March at 8.30am at Schluchsee.
Witnesses to the burial: Conrad Ebner, married townsman and farmer of Schwarzhalden; ?Melchor Morat, married townsman and farmer of Faulenfürst.
Schluchsee, 3 March 1837.
Josef Kehrmann, Vicar.

=====
Leibgeding-Genießer is literally an annuity-beneficiary. What this means is that Anton had previously handed over the running of his farm (passed it on to a son or sold it) on condition that the new owner give him board and lodging for the rest of his days. I don't know if there's an English equivalent - to all intents and purposes he was a retired farmer.

Hope this helps!
Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Monday 19 December 11 19:31 GMT (UK)
Wow, Adrian! Great work here! I think I am able to give a definitive yes to the idea that my Monika and the one I'm related to are the same person. I have Monika's father's death record that says that he was a Schlosser when he died in Bonndorf. It certainly opens up a lot of questions about who was the father of the child and such.
That's also very interesting information about Anton. I wonder why Anton was a farmer when Cyriak his son became a nail smith? He wasn't the first son Anton had, so maybe he had a choice? I don't know how occupations were handled within a family during this period. He did marry into the Stuckle family, of which I told you, the father-in-law was a locksmith. Maybe Cyriak apprenticed with Mr. Stuckle? Lot's of questions here...
Finally, I was perusing about the Sterbuch from Faulenfürst and Schluchsee and came across what I think might be a son of Anton and Liberata. I have been able to pick out some of the phrases and words, but, could you please decipher the following record? Thanks again!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Tuesday 20 December 11 05:54 GMT (UK)
Not a son of Anton and Liberata, but an illegitimate infant grandson!

Im Jahr Eintausend, Achthundert Dreißig und
Acht, am eilften Juli, Morgens neun Uhr starb
in Schwarzhalden und wurde am dreizehnten
Juli Morgens neun Uhr zu Schluchsee beerdigt:
Johann Josef Herzog
unehlicher im Jahre Eintausend, Achthundert,
Dreißig und Sechs geborener Sohn der ledigen
Maria Agatha Herzog, einer ehelichen Tochter
des Bürgers und Bauers Anton Herzog von
Schwarzhalden und der Liberata Schafroth,
gebürtig von Blasiwald. Zeugen der Beerdigung
sind: Johann Georg ?Dogg Leichenschauer von Faulen-
fürst, und Johann Morat, Bürger und Bauer
von Faulenfürst.
Schluchsee d[en] 13ten Juli 1838. Stuhr Vikar


In the year one thousand eight hundred and thirty eight, on the eleventh of July and nine o'clock in the morning there died at Schwarzhalden, and was buried on the thirteenth of July at nine o'clock in the morning at Schluchsee:
Johann Josef Herzog
born in the year one thousand eight hundred and thirty six, illegitimate son of the unmarried Maria Agatha Herzog, a legitimate daughter of the townsman and farmer Anton Herzog of Schwarzhalden and Liberata Schafroth, born at Blasiwald. Witnesses to the burial are: Johann Georg ?Dogg, coroner of Faulenfürst, and Johann Morat, townsman and farmer of Faulenfürst.
Schluchsee, 13 July 1838. Stuhr, Vicar

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Wednesday 21 December 11 04:47 GMT (UK)
Well, what'd ya know? I'm really grateful to you for your help. Hopefully, my eyes will begin to see the letters and words better so all I will need you for is double-checking my deciphering work. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 05 January 12 18:53 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
I just found another baptismal/birth record I need some help with. This is for Rosina Susanna Müller who was born in Thun. I can make out that her father was Abraham, but not who his father was nor who his wife is. Any help you can give will be appreciated. Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 05 January 12 22:19 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Not to add more here, but, I ran across Rosina's husband's birth/baptism registration and need some help. I know his father's name was Friedrich and his mother Catharina Grossenbacher. I can't seem to make out some of the other information here that I'm used to seeing. Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 06 January 12 04:53 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Since I last posted, I figured out that the last record I attached listed F. Schneider as being from Stalden, which is in Münsingen. That led me even further to find his birth/baptismal registration. I can tell that his father is also from Stalden, but, for the life of me, I can't figure out any other names! Could you help?
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Friday 06 January 12 07:59 GMT (UK)
ein ehl[iche]s Mädchen, geb. 14. Aug. Rosina Susanna
Par[entes]
Abraham Müller, Abrah[ams] Sohn Schuemacher von Thun, cop[uliert] 23./1. 817
Anna Zurst von Walkringen.
Test[es]
Hr. Samuel Müller, Sohn ?Negt. [=?Negotiant]
Fr. Rosina Lohner, geb. Müller.
Fr. Pfandvögtin Susanna Hofer, geb. Mühlimatter.
alle 3. von Thun.


A legitimate girl, born 14 August. Rosina Susanna
Parents:
Abraham Müller, Abraham's Sohn, shoemaker from Thun, married 23 January 1817
Anna Zurst from Walkringen.
Witnesses:
Mr. Samuel Müller, ?merchant's son [not entirely sure about that!]
Mrs. Rosina Lohner, nee Müller.
Mrs. Susanna Hofer, nee Mühlimatter, the reeve's wife.
All 3 from Thun.

=================

d[en] 9tn Januar --- d[en] 30tn Januar.
Friedrich --- ehelich --- Schneider.
Par[entes]
Friedrich Schneider vom Stalden.
Catharina Großenbacher von Haßle beÿ Burgdorf.
Test[es]
Friedrich Karlen von Erlenbach.
Bendicht Baltzli von Uttigen.
Anna Großenbacher von Haßle.


9 January --- 30 January [birth & baptism dates?]
Friedrich --- legitimate --- Schneider.
Parents:
Friedrich Schneider from Stalden.
Catharina Grossenbacher from Hasle bei Burgdorf.
Witnesses:
Friedrich Karlen from Erlenbach.
Bendicht Baltzli from Uttigen.
Anna Grossenbacher from Hasle.

=================

Wurde getauft zu Signau d[en] 11ten 7bris 1791. Lauth autentischen Scheins
Friedrich Schneider
Par[entes]
Christe Schneider vom Stalden
Elsbeth Stuby von Gÿsenstein
Test[es]
Bendicht Schneider.
Jakob Riser.
Maria Riser geb. Siegenthaler.


Baptised at Signau on 11 September 1791, according to an authentic certificate
Friedrich Schneider
Parents:
Christe Schneider from Stalden
Elsbeth Stuby from Gÿsenstein
Witnesses:
Bendicht Schneider.
Jakob Riser.
Maria Riser nee Siegenthaler.

Gysenstein and Stalden merged to form the commune of Konolfingen in 1933.

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Saturday 07 January 12 04:43 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Thanks as always for the work you put in to helping me. I did have one question: I know to almost never question your deciphers, but, is it possible that the Elsbeth Stuby could be Stucky? I've noticed a lot of records from other individuals that have a Christian Schneider with an Elisabeth Stucki and I wanted to get a second opinion before I re-write any details. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Saturday 07 January 12 12:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Matt,
Looking at it again, yes, it could definitely be Stuki, comparing the k with that in 'Jakob' a few lines down. And the last letter is more likely an i than a y, as the y in other words curls the other way.

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Wednesday 22 February 12 20:30 GMT (UK)
Hey,
While I was rummaging through some Swiss records looking for Catharina Großenbacher's baptismal record, I found the attached record. I'm still a little uncertain if it's a match for the person I'm looking for, but it was the only Catharina from Hasle bei Burgdorf that I could find. I was also a little skeptical because she would have been older than her husband when she married him in 1813. If you wouldn't mind transcribing this for me, I would appreciate it. Sorry, also, for the poor quality!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Thursday 23 February 12 06:18 GMT (UK)
1787
den 6tn Januar
Par[entes]:
Hans Großenbacher zu Dorschwummen
Catharina Binner

Katharina

Test[es]:
Durs ?Zseli im Bigel
Barbara Hofer des Krämer Großenbachers Frau [wife of Großenbacher the merchant]
Barbara Glauser des Wirths Großenbachers Frau [wife of Großenbacher the innkeeper]


Dorschwummen (= Dorfschwummen) and Bigel (listed in Durheim as two houses named Bigelhäusli and Bigelweid) are hamlets/farms in Kirchgemeinde Hasle.
http://map.local.ch/en/search/Dorfschwummen
http://map.local.ch/en/search/Bigel-Hasle-bei-Burgdorf

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 23 February 12 19:01 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Thanks for the clarification. After looking a bit further, I think I may have found Hans and Katharina's marriage registration from 1774. However, I didn't find any children born to them until 1783. Can you help me by figuring out the locations listed in the registrations [i.e. is that Sumiswald where Katharina is from]? I've attached the marriage entry as well as another child's birth entry. Also, I know the quality of the last attachment I sent was poor, so do you think that Katharina's last name maybe Sommer? Hopefully, the birth entry I've attached will help. Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Friday 24 February 12 06:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Matt,
Yes, Katharina is from Sumiswald. And yes, her surname is SOMMER - it's a lot clearer here! Sorry about that!

A[nn]o 1774 zu Haßle Copuliert
Jenner [=Januar] den 7. Hanß Großenbacher von Haßle dißmahl zu
Erißweil, mit Katharina Sommer von Sumißwald.


dißmahl = diesmal = currently/at present [residing]
Erißweil = Eriswil

1785
January den 9tn
Par[entes]:
Hans Großenbacher von Hasli zu Dorfschwummen.
Catharina Sommer von Sumiswald.
Andres.
Test[es]:
Niklaus Sommer, von Sumiswald.
Andres Sommer, von Sumiswald.
Christina Sommer von Sumiswald.


Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Saturday 25 February 12 19:35 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Adrian. You sure have been a huge help for me!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Sunday 26 February 12 05:08 GMT (UK)
Adrian,
Sorry to bother you, but, I need some help with transcribing and translating this time. I have a birth registration for Monika Stuckle I need help with. I know that her father was Franz Josef Stuckle and her mother was Anna Maria Siegwart and that they were living in Bonndorf (Germany).
I'm sorry for the poor quality of the attachment. In case you want to see the original, go to this page:
https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/bild_zoom/permalink.php?f=5-471452-36
After that, click the word "Permalink," which will take you to the exact page of the registration book where I clipped this image. The entry is on the bottom left-hand side. 
Thanks for your help as always!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Sunday 26 February 12 08:54 GMT (UK)
Acten Bonndorf den 21ten September 1812
Zu Bonndorf wurde heute den 21ten September 1812 Morgens
6 Uhr gebohren, und den nemlichen Morgen um 9 Uhr
in der dasiegen Pfarrkirche getauft ein Mädchen mit
Namen Monika, eheliche Tochter des Hr. Joseph Stukle,
Bürger und Schlossermeister dahier, und der Anna Maria
Siegwärt.
Zeugen, beÿ der hl. [=heiligen] Taufhandlung gegenwärtig, wa-
ren Johann Büche, Bierwirth, und Nepomuk Binder,
Meßner.

Register of Bondorf, 21 September 1812
Born at Bondorf today 21 September 1812 at 6 o'clock in the morning, and baptised the same morning at 9 o'clock in the parish church of this place, was a girl named Monika, legitimate daughter of Mr Joseph Stukle, townsman and master locksmith of this place, and Anna Maria Siegwärt.
Witnesses present at the act of holy baptism were Johann Büche, innkeeper, and Nepomuk Binder, sacristan.

Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Monday 27 February 12 04:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Adrian. It looks like I've got a couple lock and nail smiths in the family. I wonder if I could find records that stretch back even further that would tell me where this occupations started, if indeed they were inherited trades.
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Thursday 10 May 12 00:14 BST (UK)
Hi Adrian,
It's been a while since I last wrote. I have a couple of new records I need help deciphering. They both belong to Helena Herzog. I can kind of make out some of the details from the baptism registration and the death registration, but I need some expert eyes.
The birth record is first, followed by the death. Because of the poor quality of both scans, it might be best to go to the site where I found the records. The birth record was from here:
https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/bild_zoom/zoom.php?bestand=10028&id=2239846&gewaehlteSeite=05_0000471468_0013_5-471468-13.png

The death record is found here:
https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/bild_zoom/zoom.php?bestand=10028&id=2239847&gewaehlteSeite=05_0000471469_0202_5-471469-202.png

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: apwright on Thursday 10 May 12 07:29 BST (UK)
Im Jahr tausend achthundert und zehn, den dreÿzehnten
August morgens zweÿ Uhr wurde von Liberathe Schaffroth
von Gutenburg gebürtig, und Anton Herzog, Nagler und
Burger zu Schwarzhalden ein weibliches Kind Helena
Herzog geboren, welches den dreÿzehnten August dem
Unterzeichneten von dem Vater vorgezeigt, und in Gegen-
wart desselben, und des Martin Meisters Gastwürths zu
Seebrugg die Beurkundigung gefertiget, und denselben
vorgelesen wurde.
Thomas Dietrich Pfarrer u Beamter
des burgs Standes zu Schluchsee

In the year one thousand eight hundred and ten, on the thirteenth of August at two o'clock in the morning there was born to Liberathe Schaffroth, born at Gutenburg, and Anton Herzog, nailmaker and townsman at Schwarzhalden a female child Helena Herzog, which on the thirteenth of August was presented to the undersigned by the father, in the presence of whom and of Martin Meister, innkeeper at Seebrugg, the certificate was completed and read out. Thomas Dietrich, Priest and Official of the Registry at Schluchsee.

=====

Im Jahr tausend achthundert und zweiundfünfzig den
vierzehnten März Nachts zehn Uhr starb in Schwarz-
halden und wurde den siebenzehnten März Vormittags
zehn Uhr auf dem Gottesaker zu Schluchsee durch den
Unterzeichneten beerdigt:
Helena Herzog.
ledige Taglöhnerin von Schwarzhalden, zweiundvierzig
Jahre alt. Zeugen waren Jakob Ebner, Leichen-
schauer von Schwarzhalden und Joseph ?Fengler, Lehrer
von Schluchsee.
Schluchsee den siebenzehnten März im
Jahre Eintausend achthundert und
zweiundfünfzig. [signature illegible, Pfarrer]

In the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty two on the fourteenth of March at ten o'clock at night there died in Schwarzhalden and was buried by the undersigned on the seventeenth of March at ten o'clock in the morning in the cemetery at Schluchsee: Helena Herzog, unmarried charwoman from Schwarzhalden, forty two years old. Witnesses were Jakob Ebner, coroner of Schwarzhalden, and Joseph ?Fengler, schoolteacher of Schluchsee. Schluchsee on the seventeenth of March in the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty two. [signature illegible, Priest]

Regards, Adrian
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 18 May 12 02:52 BST (UK)
Adrian,
Thanks for your help. I've been noticing that you're very well versed on the histories of various cities and occupations in Germany and Switzerland. I am trying to find any resources (books online, websites) that might detail some of the more social customs (ie. baptisms, marriages, deaths, etc.) associated with Baden, Germany and Bern, Switzerland during the 18th and 19th centuries. Would you know of anything that might help give me a deeper understanding of the daily lives that these people may have lived?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Monday 23 July 12 19:19 BST (UK)
Adrian,
I hope you're doing well. I have a unusual deciphering project I need help with. A friend of mine has ancestors who lived in modern-day Slovakia. As you might recall, Slovakia was once part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. In 1869, there was a census taken of all of the families in Slovakia. I was able to locate the entry for my friend's family, named Ribar. Unfortunately, I can't make out some of the words written in by the census taker.
What makes matters worse is that for some of the information, it's written in German; for others, it's written in Hungarian. However, I think the words I'm having problems with are all in German, or, at least in Kurrent letters.
I've attached a few of the words I'm having trouble with.
The first example one is from Column 2, which states the names and relationships of the residents of the house. I don't know what the words are below each name (the relationship part). I can make out "Sohn" and "Tochter" but the others are harder for me.
The second example comes from Column 7, which asks for the occupation of each individual. There were only three listed, but I can't seem to make out any of them.
The last example comes from Column 8, which asks for each person's employment. There is only one example here. It looks like "Volks_____"
*The examples from Column 7 and 8 are in the same picture*
Anyway, hopefully you'll be able to help!
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: KMEvans on Tuesday 16 October 12 08:22 BST (UK)
hi mattH, i understand from this thread that maria Röthlisberger is your 4th great grandmother, she is mine as well.  I just found out some really cool family info from another family member, Timothy Neaderhiser.  His Grandmother Mable Neaderhiser put it together back in 1981.  I've been trying to find out what Maria's history and unable to.    Here's my connections.. I'm also on ancestry.com

Title: Re: Help pls deciphering Swiss baptism records
Post by: MattH on Tuesday 08 November 11 21:33 GMT (UK)
Adrian/Justin,
Here are two more records I need help deciphering. The top one is the baptismal record from my fourth great-grandmother, Maria Rothlisberger, who was born in Langnau. The second is from my third great grandmother, Magdalene Messerli. While I'm more interested in understanding the entire record, if all you have time for is to decipher the occupation of the fathers, that's fine with me. Thanks for your time and help!


Maria Rothlisberger (1797 - )
is your 4th great grandmother
Fredrick Neaderhiser (1835 - 1914)
Son of Maria
Edward Neaderhiser (1872 - 1936)
Son of Fredrick
Roy Edward Neaderhiser (1894 - 1958)
Son of Edward
Edward Lawrence Neaderhiser (1916 - 1985)
Son of Roy Edward
*
Daughter of Edward Lawrence
Kathyrn Marie Evans
You are the daughter of *

* details of living people removed in accordance with Rootschat policy
Title: Re: Help pls deciphering german records
Post by: MattH on Friday 26 October 12 23:56 BST (UK)
Hi,
I'm sorry to inform you, but, we're not related. I was also mistaken--Maria Rothlisberger is my third great grandmother. She was born in 1839 and was not married to a person named Neaderhiser. Sorry!