RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Inchworm on Sunday 01 January 12 17:12 GMT (UK)
-
My ancestor, William Bray an engineer of Deptford, went to St. Peterburg around 1867. His daughter Ann Frances Bray was born there.
His grandson, Stephen Thomas James Bray lived and died there also.
I cannot find out anything about this family in Russia or why and how long they were there.
Please could anyone help me?
Regards
Inchworm
-
Hi,
Stephen's death is listed in GRO Consular Death Indices (1849-1965); perhaps a copy of the certificate will list his occupation.
Stephen TJ Bray, Moscow Russia, 1916-1920, Vol. 4, pg 1065A. Age at death 63; the image (hand written) is faint, could it be 13?
Nanny Jan
-
The Genealogist/BMDregisters database has a marriage register entry for a William Bray in St Petersburg in 1869 (to Sarah Richardson, a widow) and also baptisms in 1885 of 3 children born to William Bray and Sarah Eleanor, nee Phillips (George Walter, Sarah Eleanor, Lucy) - might these refer to your William ?
-
Thanks Nanny Jan. That is helpful.
Sorry ShaunJ, but they are not my family.
William Bray had his first family (in Lambeth, Folkestone & Dover) with Harriet, starting in 1833. (Can't find a marriage)
Then married for the second time to Sarah Ann Wingell in 1859 Lambeth and had six children. The last being b. in St. Petersburg.
-
Hi. I am wondering whether we are looking for the same family? I have just started a search on behalf of my 88-year old stepfather who has been told that William Bray, born Deptford 1863 and an engineer with a business in Folkestone, was his great grandfather. He moved to Russia, date unknown, and at least one of his children was born out there. However, in 1898 the family were living in Kondorovka (south of Moscow, I believe) and he worked for International Harvester. This is very important because it was due to his British nationality that his son was able to flee Russia in 1917.
I think that your William Bray cannot be the same one because of the dates of moving to Russia, but it is also quite possible that we have "lost" a generation here and that William Bray might be the Great great grandfather.
Have you found out anything further that you would like to share or that would throw any further light on this please?
-
I would say that it looks as if they are both from the same family. I have a few William Bray members in that family. 1n 1851 census William was living at Viaduct Cottages, Folkestone. He must have gone to Russia between 1867-8, worked out by the ages of his children.
Do you have the names of any other family members connected to William.
Mine married twice. First to Harriet, second to Sarah Ann. He had 13 children at least. Two of them were a William. :)
-
Thanks so much for that. We have definitely skipped a generation here. Always tricky when there is no one left alive to ask about these things, and even when they were still alive the information has obviously become confused with advancing age!
I'm completely new to this Rootschat thing; do we have to use this or can we exchange information by email, which I find infinitely quicker and less cumbersome?!
Do you have any dates for William Bray - birth or death, please? I have a copy of a newspaper article (Evening Star - 13.9.58) with an article on the "Centenary of Traction Engine Pioneer" which includes a photograph of Mr. William Bray with his two sons on his engine of 1858". It also says that "In the Great Exhibition 1862 the Bray Company (then of 12 Pall Mall, London) showed an engine built for the government for permanent service at Woolwich Dockyard." I am told that many years ago the "family solicitor" confirmed that this William Bray was my stepfather's great great grandfather, although at the moment I cannot quite make these dates work so the info is doubtful.
Family members: Arnold Denys Bray b.19.12.27 in England and his brother Valerie Charles Bray b.19.8.1919 - I am sure this should be 1917 - in Uchtomskoe, nr. Moscow. The dates now become suspect because V C Bray and parents Alexander & Mary Bray (nee Stepanova) were supposed to have come over to England in one of the last British ships to leave Russia during the revolution. Alexander had a brother who remained in St. Petersburg, name unknown at present, and possibly another brother Harry who was living in Romford at one point.
This is messy! If we are allowed to email I could send you scans of a few documents that I have in the hopes that we can help each other out. Have you any particular purpose in your research or general interest?
I think Henry Bray had a brother who remained in St. Petersburg after the revolution, because in the 1950s Alexander was working in the fur trade and visited St. Petersburg once or twice a year. After a while, apparently the brother asked him not to visit any more because it could cause him problems with the communists, so they never spoke again.
Whew! Can you sort anything out of that, whilst I try to construct some sort of tree with the info I have at present?
-
Hi! This is amazing only just seen this as not done much researching this year!
Walter Bray b Feb 1862 at 2 Abenger Rd, Deptford is my Gt Grandfather. His Father William b 1812 Deptford ,engineer and mother (2nd marriage) Sarah Anne Wingell b 30 Nov 1829 Northamptonshire. They were married 1859 St Johns Church Lambeth.
William and Sarah went out to st. Petersburg in 1867 on a boat named Virgo
Yes it is quite a complicated tree because of the two marriages and many children.I Will look it out if it would help.
Williams first marriage was to Harriet Pudney b1811 London d 1854 their children were
1.William Thomas George b 1833 Deptford m Eliza Maria Gatland - their son Stephen TG is the one who went to Moscow.
2 Harriet Dinah b 1836 Poplar Middlesex 3. James b 1837 Lambeth. 4. Jane b 1839 Lambeth
5. Henry b 1841. 6. Maria Ann Susannah b1844 Dover. 7 Alfred 1849 Folkestone
8. William Henry b 1853 Northampton.
William's children from his second marriage are:
9. Frederick William John b 1860 2 Abenger Road Deptford 10.Walter George ( my GGd f) B 1862
11. Albert William b 1864 Deptford 12. Sarah Ann b1866 Croydon, Surrey
13. Annie Francis b 1868 St Petersburg Russia
I have a great deal of information relating to this part of the family - a photo album from my Grandmother Florence Daisy Bray, 'An Account of Walter's early years in Russia as a British Citizen and Resident of Russia Until 1917.' Plus a v large work writtern by Sarah Ann's (Walters sister)son Kenneth Braidwood 'Memoirs of Life in Russia 1904-1918.
I hope this info is of use sorting out generations/relations if you would like to contact me my email is *
* Moderator comment: personal e-mail address removed in accordance with RootsChat normal practice to prevents others from abusing it or spamming it. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. New members need to make two or three posts before being able to access this system. Thanks
-
William Bray was also my great-great grandfather, and his son Walter George was my great-grandfather. My grandfather was Walter Bray, Florence Daisy's brother. I assume your father was her son Edward Eales? I have a photograph of William on my wall.
-
How lovely that you too have William Bray as your ancestor.
Do you have details of who Walter married and who his children were that you would be willing to share? I would love to see the photo that you mention.
You may want to send me a private message or post here.
Regards,
Inchworm :)
-
Walter George Bray married Alice M. Digby. They had nine children, of whom the oldest, also Walter, was my grandfather. It sounds like we are the same generation - who was your Bray grandparent? Shaun J in this discussion referred to a William Bray, married in Petersburg in 1869. This was our William's nephew, son of his elder brother George. Both these branches of the family lived in Russia until the revolution (100 years ago!) and they were very close. Researching these generations is complicated by the fact that there are several Williams, Georges, Walters, Alices and Florences and combinations thereof. In Russia they also started using the patronomyic system and occasionally Russian spellings.
-
Yes, I agree, it becomes very complicated as there are so many Williams, Georges etc.
My connection with the Bray family is Alfred Bray, son of William (b.1812) & Harriet Pudney. He is my Grt. Grt Grandfather.
-
Who & where did your Grandfather Walter marry? Who were his children?
I have only found out about Florence Daisy, Annie and Isabella.
Am I right in thinking that there was a Mary, William and a Frederick William.
I only have seven children, not nine.
:)
-
To be clear, both my grandfather and great grandfather on my father's side were named Walter. My great grandfather Walter 1862-1937 married Alice M. Digby. I'm pretty sure the married in London, Wandsworth or thereabouts. His children, in birth order, were: Walter, Alice Florence, Albert, Nancy, Florence Daisy, Frederick William, Isobelle (may have been Isabella), May (probably baptised Mary) and William. What is your name and who are you descended from?
-
My Great Grandfather was Walter George Bray b1862 2 Abenger Rd., Deptford Kent and his wife was Alice Mary Digby who he married after returning from St Peterburg on 9 June 1885 Baptist Chapel, East Hill. My Grandmother was one of their 9 children Florence Daisy Bray b 21 May 1894 St P. she married Richard Thomas Alfred Eales.
Walter G first went to Russia in 1876 with his father William (1812 Deptford) and mother Sarah Wingell (2nd marriage)
In 1881 Walter was a Teacher at Ehlers Private Prep School and by 1882 he was private tutor to Prince Serge and Prince Esper Belesselsky
I have Walter and Alice's children as:
Walter m Margit Augusta Julia Lesser
Albert
Nancy m Boris Doutoff
Florence Daisy b1894 m EA Eales
Frederick Wm b1895 m Rose A Davies
Alice Florence b1896
Isabella b 1898 m Theorde 'Tech' Hecken
May b 1901 m Eric Collins
William b 1904
-
Have only just signed in again so could not re read previous messages sent hence I can now see I have repeated a lot that you said Adrian - sorry! But hey we are definitely related then. I have been doing the Bray family research for many years now so I have quite a mass of information including an autobiography written by Walter George (1862) and a very long story of the family's life out in Russia writtern by Kenneth Braidwood - Kenneth was the son of Walters sister Sarah Ann who married John Braidwood.
-
I have a Bray connection - only getting to the bottom of my connection. My grandmother Olga Bray was the daughter of Stephen Thomas James, born in England but died in Moscow. I have his brothers on my tree - I was originally told her father was Alexander married to an Ephimoff but when I obtained Olga's divorce papers, they arrived with a copy of her marriage certificate and it clearly shows that her father was actually Stephen. Olga and Harry Yates married at the British Church of At Andrews, Moscow.
Hope to hear from you.
Denise
-
Hello Denise,
How strange that Olga's father was her brother's child Stephen T J and not Alexander as we thought. I have her siblings as Eugene, Sophia, Alexander and Serge.
Did Stephen TJ have any other children and who and where was he married?
Regards,
Inchworm :)
-
Hello
I know, I was originally told Olga's father was Alexander but her wedding certificate shows Stephen Thomas James as her father. Olga married 26 Jan 1909 at The British Church of St Andrews Moscow. The marriage was witnessed by: James W Bray, Stephen W Bray, Alfred Bray and Anna (?)
I wonder if James and Stephen are her brothers. I understand Stephen TJ was married to someone called MARIA and understand they did have other children but to be honest I thought Alexander was her father and spent most of my efforts on his family. I have tried contacts to see if I could find out the surname of Maria but no luck as far. I have to admit I am not very good on the computer a cousin in Canada, has sent all kinds of titbits on the Ephimoff side of the family. A Elizabeth Ephimoff studied at the University of Geneva - have that on file - she came from Petersburg. If there is way of sending you a copy of the marriage certificate, I am quite willing to share.
I have also been told Olga taught English for the young children of the Royal Family - but how one can verify that I do not kow.
Olga and her husband Harry Yates returned to England 1909 as my father Stephen Yates was born 24th December 1909 LEICESTER - the birth was registered 1910. Harry was born in Canada - Wentworth Canada.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Denise
-
Hi Adrian
Have not been keeping up with roots chat but just looking through now I do not think I ever answered your question about my father being Edward Eales - which yes he was -so sorry. Also as you mention a photograph I have quite a lot of close Bray family photos which were handed down through Edward - if you would be interested in seeing some I could email you some - just a thought.
Regards Anna
-
Hello Anna,
To pick up the thread here: My father Peter Bray would be your father Edward (Ted)'s first cousin, so we are second cousins. I have a photograph from 1933 with your grandparents sitting together with Ted in front. Also a handy family tree prepared about 20 years ago, but no information beyond Ted.
-
As regards Stephen Bray; my family tree indicates that his siblings were Alfred, Alexander, Henry and Harriet. Their parents were William (Bill) Bray (born 1833) and Ann Webb. Bill was the oldest child of William Bray (born 1812) and his first wife Harriet Pudney, with whom he had seven children. Harriet passed away in 1854 and he re-married, to Sarah Ann Wingel, by whom he had another six children and adopted her child (also William). No wonder he died broke! My great grandfather was the second child of his second family and there wasn't a lot of contact between them after William (1812) died. I do know Bill (1833) was in Russia most of his life, and invited my great-grandfather Walter (his half-brother) to join him there around 1880. Walter's descendants are also numerous, but all left Russia after the 1917 revolution.
If you are Stephen Bray's grandchild, we are fourth cousins.
-
Hello Adrian,
My 2X Grandfather was Alfred Bray son of William Bray (b.1812) and Harriet Pudney.
Have you done the Ancestry DNA test yet?
-
Inchworm, that would be Alfred born in 1848. It appears we are fourth cousins, once removed. It would be fun to add that bit of the family tree to mine. I have not done the DNA test.
-
Hello everyone.
I am looking for Denise Rudge and others with the same ancestor. :)
I have been living in Birmingham since last year.
I was born and raised in Brazil.
My phone number is 07852100444 (+44 UK)
Let's keep in touch
Cheers
-
Renato Bray - I am a descendant of George BRAY and Ann WIGGETT.
Hi Denise Rudge. We have got the same ancestor.
I have been living in Birmingham since last year.
I was born and raised in Brazil.
My phone number is (*)
Let's keep in touch
Cheers
(*) Moderator Comment: personal telephone number removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
William Bray b. 1812 Deptford is my 3x greatgrandfather. His daughter Maria Ann Susannah Bray m. Robert Burt is my 2x greatgrandmother. I'd love to read the 'Account of Walter's early years in Russia' and Kenneth Braidwood's memoirs, as well as any other articles (and photos) about William, his work and his family's time in Russia.