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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Westy11 on Sunday 08 January 12 09:22 GMT (UK)

Title: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Sunday 08 January 12 09:22 GMT (UK)
A difficult one for the forum members.   ???

I am trying to locate Thomas Oates parents and siblings. 

The information I have that is definite is that Thomas Oates married Charlotte Sanderson on 28 Dec 1824 in Sheffield.  Thomas was a merchant and it appears his primary family were also merchants/agents of sorts. Charlotte operated schools.

Thomas died 18 Nov 1871 at Lochbie House, Hornsey Rise, London, N and is buried at Sheffield General Cemetery non conformist section in a plot that he owned.  Altogether 3 are buried in the plot namely him, his wife Charlotte and George Oates who died 16 Nov 1852.  George was also a merchant who lived at Broom Villa Glossop Road Sheffield.   I do not know George's relationship to Thomas but it is assumed he is related in some way.

Have my fingers crossed the collective wisdom of this forum will help me find this family.

Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: dobfarm on Sunday 15 January 12 23:48 GMT (UK)
Hi

Was there an age of death  on the gravestone for George Oates who died 1852, if not then maybe by purchasing his death certificate 1852, will give his age at death and  then from that look for a baptism of his estimate death age to give approx birth years or just after.

This link maybe the same family ??? as they appear to have lived in Sheffield and London area at different times. so maybe compare notes

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,575094.0.html
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Monday 16 January 12 10:58 GMT (UK)
Hello Dobfarm

Thanks so much for replying.  I obtained George's burial information from the Sheffield General Cemetery and it states his age as 63 making his birth year about 1789.  Good point about his death certificate so will put that one on the list to purchase.  Also the thread looks very interesting and have sent a post to the originator so hope I will receive a reply.

I am not sure if they are linked but some of the names are similar.  I know that both George & Thomas were merchants and not sure if those occupations are on a similar social level as file smith and file cutter; whilst not being from England I am aware of the class distinction and have seen to date how the family fortunes seem to indicate from which social level marriage partners are selected (as a broad generalization) but it is a way of checking the potential applicability of individuals (being but a novice this may be a valid point).  I will eagerly await a response from the Holden member and also hope that others may response to my post.

Kind regards
Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: mirf on Monday 16 January 12 11:39 GMT (UK)
Hi to me it looks like George could be Thomas brother.
look at Sheffield records online you have to register but it is free
it may of help. Regards mirf
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: JeannieR on Monday 16 January 12 12:22 GMT (UK)
Hello There...

There is a Baptism for THOMAS OATES, which took place in Sheffield December 27th 1793

Father was James, Mother was Sarah

I have been unable to find a Baptism for George, as yet, with the same parents

JeannieR
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Monday 16 January 12 12:25 GMT (UK)
Thank you JeannieR; the idea that mirf had that Thomas & George are brothers is a good one as well as they would have been abt 4 years apart in age.
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: JeannieR on Monday 16 January 12 13:01 GMT (UK)
Hello again

I would discount the Baptism for Thomas Oates I gave you earlier. That poor baby died, and was buried June 6th 1794.......

I have found two other Baptisms though, which need some investigation

George Oates on May 5th 1789 at Nether Chapel, Norfolk Street Independent, Sheffield

Thomas OATES on May 17th 1789

Parents of both boys were FRANCIS and MARY

It would be interesting to know if George left a will. He may have named Thomas as a Executor. They must have been close, or why would they be buried together ?

JeannieR
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: mirf on Monday 16 January 12 13:11 GMT (UK)
Hi 1871 census Matlock Thomas / Charlotte boarders Rockside Establishment
and Boarding House.  Thomas Retired Commercial Agent.
 mirf
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Sandymc47 on Monday 16 January 12 14:09 GMT (UK)
Hi

I also found the George Oates with parents Francis and Mary.  Nether Chapel, Norfolk Street, Sheffield is a non conformist Church.
They also had a daughter called Harriott she was christened
30th December 1798.  There seems to be some gaps in the ages
but that could be because the Non Conformist registers have not all
been transcribed yet in Sheffield.
I think that this is the George you require because the area he
was christened in is near to Glossop Road where you said he died.
I did see that there was a Thomas born 1792 and living on the 1841
census in Sheffield but it doesnt state on my info that he was actually
born in Sheffield.  So wondering if the one that  Jeannie found is
the correct one and that would make him around the same age as
George?
Another thing I found was the information about the class of England
in those days and it mentions that if you search for the Nether Chapel
as it states that the non conformists were very independant people which
included very good trades and people who became Lord Mayors etc.
So they were probably classed as higher than the Tykes of the day.
Not trying to be rude there but thats what they called themselves.
So do I lol. I think you will find a merchant had a bit more brass than a
file cutter or file smith.
 
Francis and Mary Bacon were married at St Peters Cathedral
on 24th April 1788. 

regards Sandymc
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: JeannieR on Monday 16 January 12 15:11 GMT (UK)
Hello...Again.....

This may help sort something out for you.

6th December 1871
The Will of THOMAS OATES, formerley of Broom-Grove , in the Parish of Sheffield, in the County of York, but formerley of Lochbie House, Hornsey Rise, in the County of Middlesex, Gentleman, who died 18 November 1871, at Lochbie House, was proved at the Principal Registry by CHARLOTTE OATES Widow the Relict and FRANK WEVER of Sheffield, Savings Bank Manager , THE NEPHEW

~~~~~~~~--------------------------------

I have found the Baptism for FRANCIS WEAVER, Which took place July 14th 1816 . Non-Conformist, Sheffield...
Father James Weaver
Mother Isabella Weaver

He certainly had one sister.

Ellen OATES WEAVER Baptised August 14th 1814 at Zion Independent, Attercliffe
Father James
Mother Isabella.

I think that Isabella could well be the sister of your Thomas, and named her son after his grandfather, Francis.....

What do you think ?

JeannieR
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Tuesday 17 January 12 07:38 GMT (UK)
Hello again

I would discount the Baptism for Thomas Oates I gave you earlier. That poor baby died, and was buried June 6th 1794.......

I have found two other Baptisms though, which need some investigation

George Oates on May 5th 1789 at Nether Chapel, Norfolk Street Independent, Sheffield

Thomas OATES on May 17th 1789


Parents of both boys were FRANCIS and MARY

It would be interesting to know if George left a will. He may have named Thomas as a Executor. They must have been close, or why would they be buried together ?

JeannieR


Hello JeannieR

That is wonderful; seriously good as I had come across the James and Sarah but they didnt match with what I had found however Francis and Mary do match.  Also matches with another Oates Edward Hawksley Oates;  I felt that Edward H was connected but haven't as yet (well until now) found how they are connected.


I did get a copy of Thomas will and it gave me all the names you are now identifying so a great job.  George did leave a will but as yet I haven't received it. Also the connection with non conformist works as they all seemed to be non conformist. 

I have to say I am so excited by the links the forum members have found.  Thank you so much... 

Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Tuesday 17 January 12 07:39 GMT (UK)
Hi 1871 census Matlock Thomas / Charlotte boarders Rockside Establishment
and Boarding House.  Thomas Retired Commercial Agent.
 mirf

Thank you Mirf - seriously good.

Kind regards
Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Tuesday 17 January 12 07:47 GMT (UK)
Hi

I also found the George Oates with parents Francis and Mary.  Nether Chapel, Norfolk Street, Sheffield is a non conformist Church.
They also had a daughter called Harriott she was christened
30th December 1798.  There seems to be some gaps in the ages
but that could be because the Non Conformist registers have not all
been transcribed yet in Sheffield.
I think that this is the George you require because the area he
was christened in is near to Glossop Road where you said he died.
I did see that there was a Thomas born 1792 and living on the 1841
census in Sheffield but it doesnt state on my info that he was actually
born in Sheffield.  So wondering if the one that  Jeannie found is
the correct one and that would make him around the same age as
George?
Another thing I found was the information about the class of England
in those days and it mentions that if you search for the Nether Chapel
as it states that the non conformists were very independant people which
included very good trades and people who became Lord Mayors etc.
So they were probably classed as higher than the Tykes of the day.
Not trying to be rude there but thats what they called themselves.
So do I lol. I think you will find a merchant had a bit more brass than a
file cutter or file smith.
 
Francis and Mary Bacon were married at St Peters Cathedral
on 24th April 1788. 

regards Sandymc

Hello Sandymc47

I will go searching for Nether Chapel and thank you for this lead.  Also for Francis & Mary marriage.  What does a Tyke do or is???  This is a new term for me;  in relation to the non conformist this has been a real benefit as it has helped me to find some of the ancestors.  It is also good to know there are more records to be transcribed.

Just on the class thing; it does seem to me that this was a bit of a decider as to which group to select marriageable partners?  Is there a book or similar that I could read that would help me to understand the class system that was operating at this period in time???  I am not in England and have looked on the web for some articles but too date a haven't located something that would enable me to get a real picture of how the class system operated  so any suggestions will be appreciated.

Kind regards

I am amazed how everyone works so well together and seem to generate new information off each other which is really wonderful.

Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Sandymc47 on Tuesday 17 January 12 13:39 GMT (UK)
Hi again,

Just to explain what I said about being a Tyke.  Its not a job its someone who was born in Yorkshire and whose dialect was very strong with people speaking a slightly different language to the Kings English.  Its something we are proud of in Yorkshire and I for one, didnt realise until I went to London in my 20's that I was speaking different words and some people didnt understand what I was saying lol.  The people who had a better job would more than likely speak in a better type of English than the generally uneducated workers who did the menial jobs.  Thats why I said jokingly I wasnt trying to be rude.
Its a Yorkshire thing.
I just put in my search engine Working class in England during the 1700's and 1800's and it has brought up alot of information.  I dont know much about books but I do know the Brontes wrote with some Yorkshire dialect in their writing. Also Charles Dickens wrote about the working class and poverty alot.
If you have any villages or towns in England and you search for them, put Genuki after the name and that brings up alot of the old information and churches of that area.  It also sometimes has Bulmers Gazette information on it which gives you lists of names of people who had businesses in the area. 
Happy to see we might have found the information you were looking for as it gets harder the further back in time you go.
Good luck with the rest.

regards Sandymc   
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Wednesday 18 January 12 08:10 GMT (UK)
Hello Sandymc47

Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting you were being rude  :-[;  I was just curious.  In Australian slang a little tyke is "a mischievous child (eg: 'He's a little tyke!'); but I couldnt work out what it meant in the context it was used so thanks heaps for that clarification .

I will try some of the search points you mention.  I have my fingers crossed that others may come across more information for this family as they have been so difficult to locate although I have been so impressed to date with the assistance I have received.

Kind regards
Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: anitamo on Thursday 19 January 12 17:31 GMT (UK)
Hello Mxmar0, if you need anything looking up in the Sheffield Archives or Library I am happy to do that for you, I go into the Town centre fairly regularly and I would be willing to call in. The records of Nether Chapel are at the Archives I think. If you google Nether Chapel Sheffield there is quite a bit of info there.
                                           

Regards  Anita
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Dalum on Thursday 19 January 12 19:33 GMT (UK)
Sheffield and Rotherham Independent
Saturday 20 Nov 1852

Deaths

OATES -- On the 16th inst., at his brother's house, Glossop
road, Mr. George Oates, aged 63, formerly of this town but
for upwards of thirty-five years a resident in the United
States.

Hugh
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Dalum on Thursday 19 January 12 20:04 GMT (UK)
and from the same issue...

THE LATE MR. GEO. OATES.-- We have this day
the melancholy duty of recording the death of our esteemed
townsman Mr. George Oates. Some of our readers will recol-
lect with pleasure the interest he took in early life, in the af-
fairs and Christian exertions of the congregation in Queen
street Chapel, in this town. For many years he took an active
part in the choir at that place of worship, and we have heard
many of our elderly friends speak with great admiration of
his vocal powers, while assisting in that delightful part
of public worship. For several years he was superintendent of
the Queen street school, and in 1814, in conjunction with his
brother, he commenced the Wicker sabbath school, which has
been for so many years a blessing to that neighbourhood. For
upwards of 35 years he has engaged in business pursuits in
the United States, and during that period he crossed the
Atlantic eighteen times. In the course of the last seven years
of his life Mr. Oates has published several very valuable
works on "Exchange and Interest," suitable for the United
States, and this year he has also published in this country,
similar works for sterling money, which have received the ap-
probation of some of the most distinguished bankers and ac-
countants. Mr. Oates was universally esteemed and beloved
by all who knew him, and his loss will be deeply deplored by a
large circle of relatives and friends.

*

If you would like to send pm me an email address I can send you images of the originals of those two extracts from the newspaper.

Hugh
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Dalum on Thursday 19 January 12 20:41 GMT (UK)
There is a longer obituary of Thomas from 1871.

Among other things it says that his father was a respectable manufacturer, George Oates
who lived many years in the Wicker, in the house which is now the Station Inn.

Thomas also spent time in the United States.
He had also been a Town councillor and an Alderman.

I am wondering if the paper was in error in calling his father George. I could not find a George in the Wicker in the directories at http://www.sheffieldindexers.com, but there are these entries:

Oates, Francis (fine scissor manufacturer).
Residing at 22 Wicker, Sheffield in 1825.
Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield.
     
Oates, Francis & Sons (merchants).
Residing at 22 Wicker, Sheffield in 1825.
Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield.

Hugh

Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Dalum on Thursday 19 January 12 21:01 GMT (UK)
Sheffield Independent
Saturday 8 May 1830

DEATHS
...
On Sunday, Mr. F. Oates, scissor manufacturer, late of the
Wicker, aged 64.

***

Sheffield Independent
Saturday 4 Feb 1837

DEATHS
...
On Monday, Mrs Oates, relict of the late Mr. Francis
Oates of the Wicker, scissor manufacturer. Mrs. Oates
was the last surviving female member of the church, at
Queen street, who was a member when the Rev James
Boden became its pastor.

***

Burials at Sheffield Parish Church (SS Peter & Paul – now the Anglican Cathedral)
OATES Francis 5 May 1830 64 Sheffield, Park, South St  scissorsmith
OATES Mary 2 Feb 1837 69 Sheffield, Glossop Rd widow

Although this family were clearly staunch non-conformists they would not have had much choice in choosing a burial place at this period.

Hugh
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Friday 20 January 12 06:05 GMT (UK)
Hello Hugh

That is great and thank you.  Does the article mean that Francis and Mary were actually buried at the church in the grounds???

I do think the paper was in error as I think Thomas father was Francis. 

Do you have anything on paper such as newspaper articles or in relation to Thomas being a Councillor and alderman???

Kind regards
Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Friday 20 January 12 06:11 GMT (UK)
Hello Mxmar0, if you need anything looking up in the Sheffield Archives or Library I am happy to do that for you, I go into the Town centre fairly regularly and I would be willing to call in. The records of Nether Chapel are at the Archives I think. If you google Nether Chapel Sheffield there is quite a bit of info there.
                                           

Regards  Anita

Hello Anita

Will send a PM to you.

Thank you for the kind offer

Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Friday 20 January 12 11:07 GMT (UK)
There is a longer obituary of Thomas from 1871.

Among other things it says that his father was a respectable manufacturer, George Oates
who lived many years in the Wicker, in the house which is now the Station Inn.

Thomas also spent time in the United States.
He had also been a Town councillor and an Alderman.

I am wondering if the paper was in error in calling his father George. I could not find a George in the Wicker in the directories at http://www.sheffieldindexers.com, but there are these entries:

Oates, Francis (fine scissor manufacturer).
Residing at 22 Wicker, Sheffield in 1825.
Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield.
     
Oates, Francis & Sons (merchants).
Residing at 22 Wicker, Sheffield in 1825.
Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield.

Hugh



Hello again Hugh

Has meant to mention that Thomas & Charlotte marriage has Thomas from Wicker;  a coincidence?

Regards
Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Saturday 21 January 12 23:32 GMT (UK)
Good morning all

Am still looking for the family of George, Thomas and now Harriott Oates and thought that is I post part of Thomas Will it might add some more detail to the forum members each as follows.

Hugh provided 2 references for Business Directories for Francis the father as Francis Oates and sons.   This leads me to wonder if there were other sons?  In part this is because of the will left by Thomas mentions a nephew Frank Wever and this means the nephew must originate out of one of Thomas siblings or his wife Charlotte.  None of Charlotte's side have any Wevers (well at least as far as I have found) so it leaves me to think that either Thomas sister Harriott married ? Wever or there are more boys but then their last name wouldn't be Wever would it...I have found the Leightons and Sandersons but no luck as yet on the others mentioned as follows so have my hope the forum members may be able to find the link...

In part Thomas will states "...such of my nephews and nieces hereinafter named who may be living at the death of my said wife that is to say George Oates Frances ? (formerly Frances Oates spinster) Isabella ? (formerly Isabella Oates Spinster) Elizabeth the widow of Edward Oates (formerly Elizabeth Leighton Spinster) the said Frank Weaver in addition to the said legacy of fifty pounds herewithfore given to him; George ? Mary ? Ellen Jackson (?) (formerly Ellen ? Spinster) Harriet ? (formerly Harriet ? Spinster) John ? Susan Dracott Mary Ann Leighton Fanny Leighton Charlotte Leighton Charlotte Sanderson..."

To date I haven't found the link between these nephews and nieces and Thomas/George & Harriott hence my query

Kind regards

Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: WolfieSmith on Sunday 22 January 12 13:24 GMT (UK)
Not sure if you already have it, but the will of, "George Oates of King St., Charlston, South Carolina, Merchant".  I presume its the right one as its dated 15 Nov 1852, same date you have for his death, proved in London 27 Feb 1854. Mentions his wife Frances and daughters Frances and Isabella, and sons George, Edward and Henry Thomas. Also mentions that as well as his property in Charlston, he had a store and warehouse in Augusta Georgia, and land and effects in Sheffield, Yorkshire.
Executors are his three sons.
Alan.
 
 
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: WolfieSmith on Sunday 22 January 12 14:23 GMT (UK)
Some probable baptisms of children of George and Frances at Queen Street Independent Chapel in Sheffield.
Born 10 May 1820, George Ambrose Oates, son of George and Frances, baptized 19 Nov 1820.
Born 30 April 1822, Henry Thomas Oats, son of George and Frances, baptized 20 July 1822.
Born 11 June 1824, Edward Hawksley Oates, son of George and Frances, baptized 29 Aug 1824.
Alan.
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Wednesday 25 January 12 09:02 GMT (UK)
Some probable baptisms of children of George and Frances at Queen Street Independent Chapel in Sheffield.
Born 10 May 1820, George Ambrose Oates, son of George and Frances, baptized 19 Nov 1820.
Born 30 April 1822, Henry Thomas Oats, son of George and Frances, baptized 20 July 1822.
Born 11 June 1824, Edward Hawksley Oates, son of George and Frances, baptized 29 Aug 1824.
Alan.

Hello Alan

Can you please have a look at your records and see if they have the birth and baptisms of the sisters Frances and Isabella please??

Kind regards
Mxmar0
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: WolfieSmith on Wednesday 25 January 12 19:11 GMT (UK)
Can't see them. Isabella was born in New York according to the 1850 US census (searchable and viewable on Familysearch).  George is recorded as a little younger than his true age, but it must be the right family.

Charleston, South Carolina,
George Oates, 55, Bookseller, b. England,
Frances ", 54, b. England,
Henry T ", 26, Bookseller, b. England,
Edward, 24, Clerk, b. England,
Isabella, 19, b. New York.

Alan.
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: Westy11 on Wednesday 25 January 12 21:54 GMT (UK)
Hello Alan

That was interesting as the daughter Frances was not listed although the mother Frances was; it may be that Frances is in England. 

Is there anyway of sending you an attachment of a will as you may be able yto work out what Isabella and Frances married names are as per the following from Thomas Oates Will.

my nephews and nieces hereinafter named who may be living at the death of my said wife that is to say George Oates Frances ? (formerly Frances Oates spinster) Isabella ? (formerly Isabella Oates Spinster) Elizabeth the widow of Edward Oates (formerly Elizabeth Leighton Spinster) the said Frank Weaver in addition to the said legacy of fifty pounds herewithfore given to him; George ? Mary ? Ellen Jackson (?) (formerly Ellen ? Spinster) Harriet ? (formerly Harriet ? Spinster) John ? Susan Dracott Mary Ann Leighton Fanny Leighton Charlotte Leighton Charlotte Sanderson
Title: Re: Parents and siblings of Thomas Oates (1792 - 1871)79
Post by: WolfieSmith on Friday 27 January 12 07:10 GMT (UK)
I've seen bits of documents posted on here, but I'm not sure how to do it.

This looks like Frances and Isabella in Sheffield in 1851 census,

Broom Parade, Ecclesall Bierlow, Sheffield,
Frances Oates, Visitor, 61, Mar, Wife of Music Seller, b. Deptford, Kent,
Isabella M. Oates, Visitor, 23, Unm, b. United States.
HO107/2337/29/51

Alan.