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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Limerick => Topic started by: Vinwad on Tuesday 31 January 12 19:58 GMT (UK)

Title: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Tuesday 31 January 12 19:58 GMT (UK)
Iím trying to trace the death and burial of my g.grandfather and my grandfather and would be grateful for any help/pointers that forum members might be able to offer.

My g.grandfather was Peter (Iron Man/Smuts) McNamara and was one of the Abbey fishermen. Peter was born in 1878 and was still around aged 60 in 1938 when compensation was paid to the Abbey men for the loss of their fishing rights. However, I donít know when he died or where he is buried. Iíve checked the Mount St Lawrence cemetery records covering a number of years but he doesnít appear to be buried there. Iíve read that Abbey fishermen had an ancient right to be buried in the grounds of St Maryís Cathedral Ė is there any way to check burials there online? (Iím based in London so canít get to St Maryís easily).

Peterís eldest son, and my grandfather, was James McNamara was born in 1898. James is down as a fisherman on his marriage certificate (1920) but is down as a labourer on his death certificate. Date of death was March 1943 by which time the Abbey fishermen no longer fished the Shannon.  I have a similar problem with the location of Jamesís burial Ė canít find him at Mount St Lawrence cemetery. Is there another cemetery where Abbey people were buried?

Also, regarding James, he didnít appear on the list of fishermen compensated for their loss of fishing rights in 1938. Does anyone know why certain fishermen received no compensation?

Thanks for any help

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: LimerickLad on Saturday 04 February 12 20:22 GMT (UK)
Greetings from Limerick

I know of  a woman who is married to one of the Clancys,  she did a masters on the Abbey Fishermen.  She published a short book, which I am looking at as I write.  I wonder are you aware of it?  I have been in touch with her before as one of my great aunts married one of Todsie McNamara's sons in the US.  I will see if I can contact her and she may be able to help you.  Was Peter Todsie's brother?  What was James's nickname.  I know the Clancys have a grave in St Mary's catherdral as it is very close to a grave in which some of my relatives are buried.  I don't know about the McNamaras.  You would have to contact the Cathedral for info, I'm not aware of anything on line.


Regards

Tom
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Sunday 05 February 12 13:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Tom,

I've seen Sharon Clancy's website (very useful) but not the book.

I haven't done enough research to determine if Peter (Iron Man) and Patrick (Todsie) were brothers although they must have been related in some way. Peter's father was John McNamara who was also a fisherman, and John was married to Johanna Crowe - the Crowe's were sandmen who also worked the river. I have to do a bit of research on Todsie to see who his parents were.

James's nickname is also a mystery. I only got Peter's nickname from the published records of compensation as their nicknames were not passed down through the family. The records show that James brother Robert (Dutch) was also awarded compensation, hence my question as to why James doesn't appear on the list.

Thanks for the pointer - I'll try contacting the cathedral. I'm hoping to visit Dublin and Limerick later in the year so hopefully I'll be able to clear up some things with a search through the official records.

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: LimerickLad on Sunday 05 February 12 13:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Vince

There is a James McNamara (Elbows) in Sharon's  book of  3 Sheep St but born 1903.  He got compensation.

Regards

Tom
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Sunday 05 February 12 13:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Tom,

I've come across 'Elbows' in my research but he is a bit younger than my James who was born in 1898.

I done some cross referencing with the 1911 census when I first came across 'Elbows' and he appears to be one of Todsie's sons.

I think this highlights why they used nicknames, with so many Patricks, Peters, James and Johns all bearing the same surname it was bound to get very confusing!

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Shaztoni on Monday 14 May 12 21:57 BST (UK)
Although some of the Fishermen had rights to St. Mary's graveyard, the McNamara's were not one of the families, unfortunately as that leads to more difficulty in trying to locate your ancestor.
Peter (Iron Man) and Patrick (Todsie), were not brothers, though the records are very hard to determine for the generation before, as there were a great many Patrick McNamaras and John McNamaras baptised in both St. Mary's Parish and St. Patricks Parish, during the 1830s. But it is very likely that they were cousins.

As far as I am aware, there is a Crowe grave in St. Mary's graveyard, so perhaps he may be there?.

As far as which fishermen were compensated, it came down to how long they had worked on the river and their age. There were many fishermen who had left Limerick during the 1930s due to poverty brought about by the lack of fishing rights but as they had left they were not awarded any compensation. Perhaps James had also left during this period.

Finally, there was recently the memoirs of  Jackie Clancy published, there was only a very short run (100 copies) but if you are in Limerick see if you can get one from the Celtic Book Shop or O'Mahonys Book Shop.
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Shaztoni on Tuesday 15 May 12 17:08 BST (UK)
I went down to St. Mary's Cathedral graveyard and found the Crowes/Hayes grave, and the Clancy grave but they are the only Fishermen in there, unfortunately there was no mention of McNamara's on the headstones.
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Tuesday 15 May 12 19:16 BST (UK)
Thanks Scrattletrap - especially for taking the trouble to pop down to St Mary's which allows me to eliminate that location as well as Mount St Lawrence.

The search for James' and Peter's resting place will have to continue when I next get a chance to visit Limerick. I suspect James did look elsewhere for work during hard times as certain certificates describe him as a labourer whilst others state fisherman.

Thanks also for the tip on Jackie Clancy's book - I'll look that up when I'm over.

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: mac777 on Monday 06 August 12 20:35 BST (UK)
Hi Vince...I am a McNamara and a descendent of Abbey Fisherman..ive heard the name Waddams spoken by my Dad as cousins .....Im from Limerick but living here in London a while...I rang him when seeing your post and have asked him to dig up the info for you....I will post it for you when i receive it back from him..yours ..Peter
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Monday 06 August 12 21:02 BST (UK)
Hi Peter, great to hear from you (and good to see that Iron Man's name is living on!) I'll send you a PM so we can share info on living relatives.

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: rathmore on Tuesday 07 August 12 11:34 BST (UK)
Peter (Iron man) Smuts - McNamara - lived at meat market lane

http://limerickslife.com/abbey-fishermen

compensation 974 0 2
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Wednesday 08 August 12 19:02 BST (UK)
Hi Rathmore, thanks for the reply.

I've seen this website before and it's been very useful.

I also found Peter McNamara's address on the old census records (1901 and 1911) and when looking a few doors down I found there was a forge located in the same street. A bit more digging (using the excellent Limerick council website) and I found that Peter was actually renting that property as well. It seems that in the off-season when the fishing had finished, Peter ran a forge in Meat Market Lane which is where I'm assuming he got the nickname of Iron Man/Smuts.

Unfortunately, in spite of finding out all sorts of nuggets of info like the above I still don't know when he died or where he is buried.

Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: rathmore on Thursday 09 August 12 11:32 BST (UK)
Have you left a message on the site I gave you, they might beable to help you
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: elainehayes on Tuesday 27 November 12 22:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Vince I am a grand daughter of the Crowe family who were sandmen you were saying that one of the Mc Namara's was married to Johannagh Crowe. please contact me if you want to get more info

kind Regards
Mary


Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Wednesday 28 November 12 19:09 GMT (UK)
Hi Mary,

Thanks for getting in touch. Apart from my ggg grandfather being Matthew Crowe and his daughter, my gg grandmother, being Johanna Crowe I know very little about the Crowes so it would be great to find out more.

I'll send a PM.

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: elainehayes on Wednesday 28 November 12 19:35 GMT (UK)
Hi Vinwad
My grandmothers name was Eiizabeth Crowe known as Lizzie she had a sister called Annie Crowe a brother called Joseph and a brother John a sister Mary who went to Buffalo New York.Send on photo please




Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: elainehayes on Thursday 29 November 12 17:52 GMT (UK)
going to look for more info for you on the crowe family
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: elainehayes on Saturday 22 December 12 22:24 GMT (UK)
 :)MERRY CHRISTMAS
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: gandhimc on Thursday 09 May 13 23:51 BST (UK)
Have some info on this. I'm also a grandson of James and Great grandson of Peter 'Old Snuts or Iron Man'. Wouldn't mind linking up. James was buried up by the Fairgreen on St.Patrick's Road in Limerick. I think Peter could be buried there too. Unfortunately that cemetery is in a bad state and impossible to locate many there.
By the way how do you PM people on this site.
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Friday 10 May 13 12:27 BST (UK)
Hi gandhimc,

I'll send you a PM.

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Marhall70 on Friday 07 June 13 06:57 BST (UK)
There was an article in one of the Limerick papers recently, where the Abbey Fishermans family's got together.  Look at the Limerick Leader or the Limerick Post, there may be links there.
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: mr88 on Sunday 05 November 17 23:14 GMT (UK)
Hello. I too am a decendant of Peter " Smuts/ Ironman " Mcnamara .  he is my  g.g. grandfather. 

Peter "Smuts/Ironman " Mcnamara
Peter "Peerie" McNamara
Maureen Ryan nee Mcnamara
Antony Ryan
and then me Mark Ryan

that's the lineage there
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Monday 06 November 17 18:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info. Peerie's line has been a bit empty in my tree so now I have something to add. How far have you got with your research?  I've got info on a couple of generations before Peerie so let me know if it would help you.  I've also got a couple of old photos which another cousin and Rootschatter passed onto me.  Send me a PM   

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: mr88 on Monday 06 November 17 18:51 GMT (UK)
Hello. pm isn't open to me yet as a new joiner.

I was following an enquiry for my aunt about there grandmother. Peter " Peerie" McNamara's wife which led me to the abbey fishermen and this thread online.

your information added heaps more questions for me haha. from what gather your grandfather James would be peeries brother?
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Monday 06 November 17 18:59 GMT (UK)
I think you need 3 posts to send or receive a PM.

Yes, my grandfather was James and was the eldest of Peter's three sons; James, Robert (Bobby/"Dutch") and Peerie.   I have Peerie's wife as Christina O'Connor.
Have you read about the Abbey Fishermen? They were a very interesting bunch. http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/Media,3936,en.pdf

Vince
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: mr88 on Monday 06 November 17 19:08 GMT (UK)
yup that's her name . I don't have much info on her and I think there Is one known photo of her .

it's good to have information on that side of my family  . Christina died when her kids were young I'm led to believe. 
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Mary Ryan Hogan on Monday 06 November 17 20:47 GMT (UK)
hi i am the grandaughter of peter pierre mcnamara my man is pierres daughter maureen . he had 4 sons and 2 daughters . pierre is buried in st. laurances but with his wife in a grave belong to her family the connors
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Monday 06 November 17 21:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Mary,

thanks for that info - I didn't have a death date or place for Peerie.  Mount St Lawrence have their records online so I'll have a look there.

Is there any info I can maybe help you with in return?
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Mary Ryan Hogan on Monday 06 November 17 21:11 GMT (UK)
any information you have on my nan christina or teeny connors as she was better known i would be grateful for . there childrens names were william (billy mc)  rip robert (bobby mc) rip michael (gull mc) maureen ryan margeret quinlivan and peter . the only siblings of pierre id know of was john treasa o connell maggie troy and catherine(lulu) hayes
Title: Re: McNamara Abbey fishermen
Post by: Vinwad on Monday 06 November 17 21:28 GMT (UK)
Mary - I'll check though my old records and will get back to you in the next couple of days.