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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: avidt on Tuesday 31 January 12 20:16 GMT (UK)

Title: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: avidt on Tuesday 31 January 12 20:16 GMT (UK)
Hi

Iam having great trouble finding the birth registration for John Richards who according to most of the Census records was born in  Llanfihangel Genau'r-Glyn, where his parents Peter & Elizabeth are supposed to have been married in 1832.

There are quite a few births for John Richards in Cardiganshire between 1844/6 and I have already wasted nearly £30 on incorrect certificates and I am trying to get advice on how to find his baptism. In a later Census he claims to jave been born in Argoedfach.

Many thanks

David ;)
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Thursday 05 April 12 13:32 BST (UK)
HI
I note that on the 1841 census piece 1372 book or folio 18/17 page 1
Peter Richards b 1806
Elizabeth b 1811
William b 1832
Richard b 1834
David b 1839
The address given is Argoed fach this must be a house cottage or hamlet, Llanfihangel Geneur Glyn is the Parish and Cynnull mawr is the township
Having my own great grandparents and other family going way back When you say he gives born llanfihangel then later states Argoed fach it is the same area! do I make sense ???
Familysearch.org
William Richards b 7th March 1832
Christened 27th March 1832 Llanfihangel Genaur Glyn Bethel Independant Tal-y-bont cardiganshire
Father- Peter Richards
Mother - Elizabeth owen
His brother
Richard Richards  b 2nd Jan 1834
christened 2nd Feb 1834  place as brother above
parents as brother above
 I note that parish records for this church is 1805 - 1837
 I am assuming this is the chapel you requested on another topic ???
 I cannot find either John or his brother David's christening...
sometimes you find that later children where not christened.
just a thought
cheers cardiff
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: avidt on Thursday 05 April 12 16:20 BST (UK)
Hi Cardiff

Thanks for the reply, I now have the Birth Cert for John and I have got the will for his grandfather William Richard.

Kind Regards

David ;)
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Thursday 05 April 12 18:21 BST (UK)
Hi
so this request is now complete ???
Just to be right was that the family you where looking for and didi you have the christenings ???
Its nice to know that the search was not in vain and correct :)
cheers cardiff
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: avidt on Thursday 05 April 12 19:24 BST (UK)
Hi Cardiff

I got the christening I needed, so that I have reached as far as I can without going to Wales.

Many thanks

David
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: ian_jones64 on Wednesday 20 February 13 17:19 GMT (UK)
Avidt,

Apologies for posting at the end of an old post but searching for my relatives seems to have brought up your post. I am looking at Richards from Cunnill-Mawr and notice your post on Argoed-fach. I have a suspicion that Peter Richards is the brother of my relative John Richards (1791-1865 born in CunnillMawr and has a son called Peter). I note you have the will of Peter Richards father, William Richards. Can you please let me know where you got this as I would like to get a copy?

Thanks
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: avidt on Wednesday 20 February 13 17:35 GMT (UK)
Hi Ian

Go to the website of the National Library of Wales and go to the Wills Database and put in the information you require, there is a charge for downloading the information.

Kind Regards

David ;)
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: ian_jones64 on Wednesday 20 February 13 17:41 GMT (UK)
David,

Thanks, can I ask what the year is?

Ian
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: ian_jones64 on Saturday 18 October 14 18:43 BST (UK)
Wondering if you've managed to find any additional information on William Richard. I have photos of the graves of Peter and his wife Elizabeth if you are interested?

Thanks

Ian
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Friday 04 September 15 20:06 BST (UK)
Hi,
This thread came in a google search.
I am trying to trace my great-great grandfather Nathaniel Jones. He was born in Argoed Fach, Caron is clawdd, to Evan Jones and Mary Jones (nee Jones) in 1875. I believe Evan was a labourer. I am having trouble tracking both Evan and Mary through the census records. I have a couple of matches but I am not certain it is them, as some of the detail doesn't match up with the sketchy info I have been given.

Nathaniel Jones appears to have left home at a young age, I can track him up until 1885 (interestingly I can't find him anywhere in the census of 1881 or 1891). Where upon he vanishes from the records until he joins the army in London in 1892. He later joins the RAMC, marries and has 3 children with Sarah Ann Rees (who I believe to be from Llanelli). He died at the age of 24 during the Boer War.

Any pointers or information about Argoed Fach or even the Jones's would be most appreciated.
Amanda
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Friday 04 September 15 20:23 BST (UK)
hello
 Can you give us where you have found him ? you say you have tracked him? Need  some basic info when you deal with JONES as the surname. what info have you gained from his army records? marriage certificate info?
 sorry to ask so many questions but more info given easier to understand and may be tracked.
cheers cardiff
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Friday 04 September 15 21:08 BST (UK)
I have got his birth, death, marriage certificates. I am presently trying to confirm where he lived before he went to London.

His war records are patchy as it is pre Boer War and his unit the Royal Medical Corps underwent numerous changes in his short tenure before his death. I have confirmed he was stationed in and around the Southampton area before going to Africa during the war.

He is shown as having attended Tregaron National School from 1878 to 1885/6 and prehaps 87 (it is not clear as he is marked as "dead" in the 87 book.
As his parents names are pretty common it has been hard to locate them.

I guess I am using what I have confirmed for him as a spring board for finding his parents.

His birth cert - 1 Aug 1875 Argoed Fach, Caron Is Clawdd. parents Evan Jones (labourer), Mary Jones (nee Jones).
His school records give them as living in Forest (1878), and Aberdur? (the writing is very hard to make out on both the 1880 and 1887 entries).

From info given to me by other family members Evan and Mary lived in The Forest, Tregaron. It was suggested he was a farmer but the records seem to disagree. (Labourer and Haulier). I was told Evan died in 1913 but can find no record of this. After Evan dies Mary remarries (a Mr Morgans, not yet confirmed) and they have one daughter, Ann Hughes nee Morgans (who lived in a cottage on a narrow street which leads to the river in Tregaron, and she died/buried in Tregaron in 1960/1)

Evan and Mary also had Margaret Ann Jones and another child who apparently died young.

The only census record which even remotely matches any of this Tregaron information is in 1891 which lists Mary as a widow and 11 year old daughter, Margaret, and 8 year old daughter Ann.

If you need more specifics do ask :)
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Friday 04 September 15 21:52 BST (UK)
Do you know where Mary was born? Just that there is a Nathaniel with mother Mary (a widow) at Aberdwfr, Caron-Ys-Clawdd Aka Tregaron, Tregaron in 1881....

Mary Jones, Head, Widow, Female, 29, 1852, Coal Miners Widow, Llanddewibrefi, Cardiganshire
Nathaniel Jones, Son, Single, Male, 5, 1876, -, Cardiganshire
David Jones, Son, Single, Male, 3, 1878, -, Cardiganshire
Margaret Jones, Daughter, Single, Female, 1, 1880, -, Cardiganshire

RG11, Piece number 5452, Folio 50, Page 8

This ties in with what you've found in 1891 for Mary and Margaret.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Friday 04 September 15 22:03 BST (UK)
No I don't know anything about Mary at all.
I don't know if that is them. The Mary with Nathaniel and Margaret track but I don't know about the third child. Obviously it doesn't track with Evan's year of death I was given, but I was starting to suspect that wasn't accurate.
I add that to info to my stack and see if anything starts to add up.
Thanks
Amanda
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Friday 04 September 15 22:06 BST (UK)
Hello
Ok have tracked him through his military records assume this is the correct man?
Nathaniel Jones joined army 21st April 1892 Southwark London number 2467 Royal fusiliers
Occupation given milkman living 34 Collingswood street age given 18 and 8mths born Tregaron Cardiganshire.
1891 census
 Poss. match
New north road Hoxton town parish of Shoreditch
William Thomas Head aged 18yrs b.1873 Blaenpenol Cardiganshire dairyman
Mary Ellis aged 23yrs llangwyryfon Cardiganshire servant
Nathaniel Jones male aged 15years b Caron Cardiganshire milkman
 The above Nathaniel Jones only matches occupation not age has he states he is 18yrs and 8months
On his application to join army?
I checked the census and I found your baptism records of Nathaniel it states baptised October 27th 1875 so that does match age for the milkman in 1891.
 You may already know all this but I am working blind!

Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Friday 04 September 15 22:07 BST (UK)
There's a burial at Tregaron of an Evan Jones, abode Fforest, on 16 Dec 1880, aged 45 ;D
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Friday 04 September 15 22:10 BST (UK)
Baptism at Tregaron on 27 Oct 1875, Nathaniel, son of Evan and Mary Jones, of Argoed Fach, Evan a farmer.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Friday 04 September 15 22:15 BST (UK)
David's baptism on 29 July 1877 says Evan was a labourer, abode Argoed Fach;
Margaret's baptism on 9 Nov 1879 says Evan was a labourer, abode Aberdwfr.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Friday 04 September 15 22:19 BST (UK)
This would appear to be the marriage of Evan and Mary...
28 August 1874, at Tregaron....
Evan Jones, aged 37, bachelor, farmer, abode Forest, father Nathaniel Jones, farmer
Mary Jones, aged 22, spinster, abode Pencefan(?), father David Jones, farmer.

Witnesses: Thomas Evans and David/Daniel Williams.

All signed.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Friday 04 September 15 23:08 BST (UK)
Hello
Ok have tracked him through his military records assume this is the correct man?
Nathaniel Jones joined army 21st April 1892 Southwark London number 2467 Royal fusiliers
Occupation given milkman living 34 Collingswood street age given 18 and 8mths born Tregaron Cardiganshire.
1891 census
 Poss. match
New north road Hoxton town parish of Shoreditch
William Thomas Head aged 18yrs b.1873 Blaenpenol Cardiganshire dairyman
Mary Ellis aged 23yrs llangwyryfon Cardiganshire servant
Nathaniel Jones male aged 15years b Caron Cardiganshire milkman
 The above Nathaniel Jones only matches occupation not age has he states he is 18yrs and 8months
On his application to join army?
I checked the census and I found your baptism records of Nathaniel it states baptised October 27th 1875 so that does match age for the milkman in 1891.
 You may already know all this but I am working blind!

I didn't have the census info. So thanks for that.
Yes it appears he lied on his army attestation. He would have been 16 years and 8 months when he joined up.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Friday 04 September 15 23:13 BST (UK)
This would appear to be the marriage of Evan and Mary...
28 August 1874, at Tregaron....
Evan Jones, aged 37, bachelor, farmer, abode Forest, father Nathaniel Jones, farmer
Mary Jones, aged 22, spinster, abode Pencefan(?), father David Jones, farmer.

Witnesses: Thomas Evans and David/Daniel Williams.

All signed.

I have literally ordered that marriage certificate this morning so I could confirm if was them or not. There is another marriage two years earlier between a Mary & Evan Jones.
Given the detail you have posted, it is them as the father's name track (in that their children or grand children bore their names) and Forest matches!

Yeah, so glad I followed my gut on that one :)

Thanks for the help, sometimes all it takes is a fresh pair of eyes to see detail otherwise overlooked! :)
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 07:23 BST (UK)
Good news  :) Just checking that you also saw Evan's burial in reply #15?
Deirdre
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: despair on Saturday 05 September 15 10:41 BST (UK)
There is a property called Argoed Fach,Tregaron which can be searched directly on Google Earth though it is slightly off a direct "Street View" location.It is on this early OS map south of Tregaron

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608351

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Saturday 05 September 15 12:21 BST (UK)

 SHOULD HAVE ADDED THE CENSUS INFO 1891  RG12 /246/144/21.
cheers cardiff
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Saturday 05 September 15 12:56 BST (UK)
Keep this census possible match
1841 census
H0107 piece 1376 book 1 folio 14 page 21
 street -forest parish Tref Garon, borough Tregaron , town Argoed & Ystrad
 Head Nathaniel Jones b 1796 (45yrs farmer Born County
Margaret  ..                b 1801 (40                  ..
William b 1821
Ann b 1826
Thomas b 1825
John b 1827
Eliza b 1832
David b 1834
EVAN born 1836
Jane b 1838
Daniel  b 1840
John Davies male b 1821
Elizabeth Jones b 1811
All born county
just to note that on this census the farm next to it is Penycefan as where Mary Jones has stated on Marriage certificate to Evan  lives.

 1851 census
H0107/2487/321/1
town Caron, House name Forest ,Tregaron
Nathaniel Jones b 1796 Caron
 Margaret  b 1789 llandewibrefi
Walter b 1832
David  b1834
EVAN b 1836
Jane b 1838
Daniel b 1840
Margaret b 1843
all above states born Caron
PETER DAVID grandson b 1848 Aberdare Glamorgan
Elizabeth Rees general servant b 1807 Aberdare Glamorgan
 also note next farm is Argoed Fach
 1861
 RG09/4203/5/4
 Evan not with the family
 Poss death
Nathaniel Jones  4th qtr 1880 aged 84yrs Tregaron





Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Saturday 05 September 15 13:11 BST (UK)
Poss Marriage
Nathaniel Jones =m= Margaret Walters  25th Feb 1820 Caron Tregaron
 hope this is of some help
cheers cardiff
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 14:46 BST (UK)
There's a burial at Tregaron of an Evan Jones, abode Fforest, on 16 Dec 1880, aged 45 ;D

Great thanks! That fits with the dates I estimated his death to around.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 14:51 BST (UK)
David's baptism on 29 July 1877 says Evan was a labourer, abode Argoed Fach;
Margaret's baptism on 9 Nov 1879 says Evan was a labourer, abode Aberdwfr.

Margaret's baptist doesn't match with the date of birth I have. She was born in 1881 and I have found a Margaret Anne Jones born 4th q of 1881. :(
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 14:54 BST (UK)
Poss Marriage
Nathaniel Jones =m= Margaret Walters  25th Feb 1820 Caron Tregaron
 hope this is of some help
cheers cardiff

Thanks for that census info. I will print it out so I have it to hand. I'm going to sit down now and process everything one has posted up and hopefully it all fits into place! :)
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 15:05 BST (UK)
David's baptism on 29 July 1877 says Evan was a labourer, abode Argoed Fach;
Margaret's baptism on 9 Nov 1879 says Evan was a labourer, abode Aberdwfr.

Margaret's baptist doesn't match with the date of birth I have. She was born in 1881 and I have found a Margaret Anne Jones born 4th q of 1881. :(

The Margaret baptism fits with the Margaret in the 1881 census though. Bearing in mind that Evan died in Dec 1880, what birth date do you have for Margaret in 1881?
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: cardiff on Saturday 05 September 15 15:11 BST (UK)
Good luck hope some of it will make sense ???
cheers cardiff
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 15:30 BST (UK)
There is a property called Argoed Fach,Tregaron which can be searched directly on Google Earth though it is slightly off a direct "Street View" location.It is on this early OS map south of Tregaron

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608351

Regards
Roger

I believe Argoed Fach is a farm which has been around for a long while. I gather from what internet searching I've done it is a substantial farm.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 15:45 BST (UK)
Quote
The Margaret baptism fits with the Margaret in the 1881 census though. Bearing in mind that Evan died in Dec 1880, what birth date do you have for Margaret in 1881?

A descendant of Margaret gave me the follwoing info about her.
m Thomas Parry at Aberystwyth on 19th Dec 1902.
She was buried on 9th October in Churchstoke, Mont.
He placed her year of birth as 1881.
I don't have her death certificate but the searches of her death give her year of b 1881.
I had found a matching Margaret Ann in 4th of 1881. I haven't got her birth certificate to confirm.

The 1879 does match up nicely with other details. However there are several Margaret Ann's born over these few years.
I would go with what matched the census data as it makes the most sense, though without the birth certificate there is still some doubt if it is the correct one.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 15:57 BST (UK)
Margaret Jones spinster aged 23, abode Mayfield House Llanbadarn Rd, Aberystwyth, father Evan labourer, married Thomas Parry, age 22, bachelor, farmer, of Cefn Coch, Llanilar, father  Morgan on 19 Dec 1902 at Holy Trinity, Aberystwyth.

No mention of a second name for Margaret and age fits with 1879 baptism.

Both signed, as did witnesses Mary and Morgan Parry.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 16:01 BST (UK)
Margaret Jones spinster aged 23 father Evan labourer, married Thomas Parry, age 22, bachelor, farmer, father  Morgan on 19 Dec 1902 at Holy Trinity, Aberystwyth.

No mention of a second name and age fits with 1879 baptism.

Both signed, as did witnesses Mary and Morgan Parry.

That's the marriage I found as well that matched the date.

I must admit when I started my searching I had pegged Margerat's b year as 1880 as the info I found first pushed her b earlier than what I had been told. Her relative didn't have her exact date of birth either, just the year.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 16:02 BST (UK)
Margaret Jones spinster aged 23, abode Mayfield House Llanbadarn Rd, Aberystwyth, father Evan labourer, married Thomas Parry, age 22, bachelor, farmer, of Cefn Coch, Llanilar, father  Morgan on 19 Dec 1902 at Holy Trinity, Aberystwyth.

No mention of a second name for Margaret and age fits with 1879 baptism.

Both signed, as did witnesses Mary and Morgan Parry.

Was her father marked as deceased?
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 16:07 BST (UK)
There are three Margaret Jones births registered in Tregaron in 1879, one in quarter 2, one q3 and one in q4. Could be any of them as we don't know how old she was when baptised. If you need / want the certificate you can specify parents must be Evan and Mary.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 16:09 BST (UK)
Was her father marked as deceased?

No but that can't be guaranteed .....
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 16:42 BST (UK)
Was her father marked as deceased?

No but that can't be guaranteed .....

There is one other marriage between a Margaret Jones and a Thomas Parry unhelpfully dated as abt November in Aberystwyth. :(

Everything else tracks, the census data and parents. It's just her date of birth yet is hard to pin down. It might be that the relative got mixed up with the other Margaret Jones/Thomas Parry marriage and his Margaret Ann isn't my Margaret Ann. Unfortunately I have no way of contacting this relative now as he lost contact with the family after my mum moved in 2005/6. He may not even be alive any more as he was pushing 75 even then.

Though if he is wrong about MA, it doesn't explain the half sister Ann as he was correct about her (even remembers her funeral in 61 and visiting her as a child).

I think my next plan of action needs to be getting hold of death certificate and seeing what that says. Maybe the month and date will track but the year they believed her to born was out. I guess it does happen.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 16:47 BST (UK)
There's only 1 Thomas Parry - Margaret Jones marriage registered in Aberystwyth in the Dec quarter of 1902. You may have seen the marriage in the index (Dec quarter 1902, vol 11b, p99) which should match the record in the parish register where I got the details from. 

To guarantee her date of birth you'll need to get her birth certificate. Dates of death can be out....
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 17:00 BST (UK)
There's only 1 Thomas Parry - Margaret Jones marriage registered in Aberystwyth in the Dec quarter of 1902. You may have seen the marriage in the index (Dec quarter 1902, vol 11b, p99) which should match the record in the parish register where I got the details from. 

To guarantee her date of birth you'll need to get her birth certificate. Dates of death can be out....

Yes just double checked and you're right :) [I'm going crossed eyed looking at all these entries  ;D ]

Her actual date of death I don't have. Her burial was on 9th Oct 1961.

I guess there is no way to be certain without the birth certificate.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 17:00 BST (UK)
There's a marriage registered in Tregaron in March quarter 1886 of a Mary Jones and a Thomas Morgans (vol 11b, p86). Not in the parish records though so I can't find any more detail sorry.

Several Ann Morgans births registered in Tregaron, but I can't find a baptism to confirm. 
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 05 September 15 17:01 BST (UK)
I guess there is no way to be certain without the birth certificate.

Afraid not ...
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 17:12 BST (UK)
There's a marriage registered in Tregaron in March quarter 1886 of a Mary Jones and a Thomas Morgans (vol 11b, p86). Not in the parish records though so I can't find any more detail sorry.

Several Ann Morgans births registered in Tregaron, but I can't find a baptism to confirm.

According the census info I have found Ann was born Ann Jones in c.1883. The father wasn't living with them. Mary was still Mary Jones in 1891, though it doesn't rule out a marriage to morgans in between time.
Title: Re: Looking for baptism c1845
Post by: alwills on Saturday 05 September 15 17:22 BST (UK)
There's a marriage registered in Tregaron in March quarter 1886 of a Mary Jones and a Thomas Morgans (vol 11b, p86). Not in the parish records though so I can't find any more detail sorry.

Several Ann Morgans births registered in Tregaron, but I can't find a baptism to confirm.

Just to add I don't have Morgans first name, from what the family know there's isn't much info about him other than last name and he was believed to be Ann's father.