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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: bobfilm on Wednesday 01 February 12 11:15 GMT (UK)

Title: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: bobfilm on Wednesday 01 February 12 11:15 GMT (UK)
I am trying to find the marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman (abt 1841 in Kennington, Surrey, London – 23 May 1913 in Surrey, Sussex) who founded Ilford Film.
I think he may have married about 1860 to Amelia Ann (or Margaret) Taylor (possibly born abt 1839 in St Martin's, St Pancras).
They are shown in 1861 at 3 Albert Cottages, Hill Street, Peckham, Camberwell, Surrey where he is in partnership with photographer - Henry Dages.
In 1871, he is a Artist Photographer at Ewell Road, Kingston on Thames, Surrey.
In 1881, he is shown as Gelatine Plate Manufacturer at   Cranbrook Lane 4 South Park, Barking, Essex   

Alfred and Amelia had 7 children. I think he may have left her as in 1881 she is shown with children at Geneva Road, Lambeth, London and in 1901 at Gilmore Road, Lewisham as Widow / Living On Own Means with daughter Amelia.

Alfred Hugh Harman may have married Nina Octavie Helvetie Du Gué (abt 1841 in Dublin, Ireland - 1902), daughter of Benjamin Louis du Gué, of Lausanne. She is shown as his wife in 1901 at The Lodge Lower Grayswood House, Grayswood, Witley. I can find no record of a marriage?
Last entry for him, shows him as a Widower / Retired Manufacturer of Photographic Goods living at Lower Grayshurst Haslemere Surrey.

He left a share of his will (valued at £333,000 in 1913) to his adopted daughter Margaret Hilda Knobel (Harman). I think she was the daughter of Edward Ball Knobel (who was Director of the Ilford Photographic Company) and Margaret nee Whitehead (abt 1851 in St James, Middlesex). I don't know why he adopted her or left her his money?

Any leads or information welcome.

 :)

Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 01 February 12 11:24 GMT (UK)
There's a short biography on Wikipedia.

Says he married widow Nina Kobble, from Dublin, who had a son George from her first marriage?

Indeed, they are together on the 1881 census:
Reference RG11, Piece 1746, Folio 101, Page 2
4 Cranbrook Lane, South Park, Barking, Essex

Harman, Alfred H  Head  M  39  Gelatine Plate Manufacturer  b Lambeth
Harman, Nina  Wife  F  39  b Dublin
Knobble, George  StepSon  M  18  b Liverpool
Tress, Elega  Visitor  F  30  b Edinburgh


Possibly, Amelia (first wife) dies in 1880:
June qtr 1880
Bethnal Green    vol 1c, page 110
Harman, Amelia    age 41
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: Annette7 on Wednesday 01 February 12 12:12 GMT (UK)
Marriage to Amelia was in the June quarter Camberwell, ref. 1d 801

Alfred Harman and Amelia Taylor.

Annette
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: bobfilm on Wednesday 01 February 12 14:30 GMT (UK)
Thanks KGarrad
I think this may be wrong as Nina is 'Nina Octavie Helvetie Du Gué' and there isn't a Nina KOBBLE, only a
Margaret Hilda Knobel-Harman
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 01 February 12 14:39 GMT (UK)
So Wikipedia got it wrong, too?! ???

Then try PhotoLondon: http://www.photolondon.org.uk/pages/details.asp?pid=3494
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: bobfilm on Thursday 02 February 12 00:27 GMT (UK)
Thanks KGarrad
I have all this info. What I trying to find is any links to the actual marriages.
Nothing seems to come up on the various family search sites.
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: Manchester Rambler on Thursday 02 February 12 08:31 GMT (UK)
If this marriage from FamilySearch is correct, Nina was married previously:

Nina Octavie Helvétie DU GIE married Thomas George RAUSBY, 21 May 1860, Edinburgh.

Rambler
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: Willow 4873 on Thursday 02 February 12 09:06 GMT (UK)
Maybe Nina married twice otherwise where does the surname Kobble come from?

Willow x
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 02 February 12 09:20 GMT (UK)
Have been trying to find the birth of George in Liverpool, c 1863?

No luck, so far! :(



How about this?

September qtr 1861
West Derby    vol 8b, page 332

Rousby, George Hnobel (or Hooble)
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: Manchester Rambler on Thursday 02 February 12 09:36 GMT (UK)
1871
RG10; Piece 4789; Folio 129; Page 17 - 23 Arlington St, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire
George T ROUSBY  Head  34  Oil & Seed Broker  b. Hull
Nina O H ROUSBY  Wife  30  b. Dublin
George K ROUSBY  Son  9  b. Liverpool
Betsy A FOX  Servant  21  General Domestic Servant  b. Louth, Lincs
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: Willow 4873 on Thursday 02 February 12 09:50 GMT (UK)
That makes more sense good chance Margaret is from the same marriage thats why she is his adopted daughter

Willow x
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: heywood on Thursday 02 February 12 10:16 GMT (UK)
If Margaret was from the same relationship, she would, presumably, be with the family though?

George T Rousby looks to be Thomas G Rousby, who marries in Sheffield in 1881
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: MargP on Thursday 02 February 12 10:24 GMT (UK)
Hi

There is a divorce record for George Rousby and Nina

Divorce Court File: 2794. Appellant: Nina Octavie Helvelie Rousby. Respondent: George Thomas Rousby. Type: Wife's petition [wx]. 
Covering dates 1873
Held by The National Archives, Kew 

Margp
 
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: Willow 4873 on Thursday 02 February 12 10:30 GMT (UK)
If Margaret was from the same relationship, she would, presumably, be with the family though?

George T Rousby looks to be Thomas G Rousby, who marries in Sheffield in 1881

Possibly she could have stayed with her father

Willow x
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: heywood on Thursday 02 February 12 10:41 GMT (UK)
Do you have Alfred in 1911?
From free index, they seem to be together- maybe she was a companion or carer?
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 02 February 12 10:55 GMT (UK)
Hilda Margaret Knobel-Harman was his adopted daughter.
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: heywood on Thursday 02 February 12 11:00 GMT (UK)
There doesn't seem to be a divorce for Arthur and Amelia and no marriage for Arthur and Nina.

Is it known why George has the name Knobel? What connection was there between Nina or Thomas George Rousby and that family?
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: heywood on Thursday 02 February 12 11:06 GMT (UK)
Hilda Margaret Knobel-Harman was his adopted daughter.

Bobfilm wants to know why he adopted her and left her his money. Adoption wasn't formal then and unless there is a written explanation it wouldn't be known.
Margaret is still at home in 1901, aged 27 yrs.
I just wondered if she became a companion or carer to Alfred in the intervening years.
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: bobfilm on Thursday 02 February 12 11:20 GMT (UK)
Thanks everybody
It would now seem that Nina Octavie Helvetie Du Gué married George Thomas Rousby.
They had a son George Knobel Rousby* (abt 1862 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England)
*I don't know why his middle name is Knobel ?
Nina and George divorce in 1873. George marries a Mary Sherwin.
Nina meets up with Alfred Hugh Harman and is shown as his wife in 1881/1901 census.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilda Margaret Knobel (Harman) was the daughter of Edward Ball Knobel (21 October 1841 in Baker Street, Marylebone, Middlesex - 25 July 1930) married 1869 in Hampstead to Margaret Whitehead (abt 1851 in St James, Middlesex).
She is later shown as adopted daughter of Alfred Hugh Harman an he leaves her money in his will.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still not sure why 'Knobel' keeps cropping up?
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: heywood on Thursday 02 February 12 11:30 GMT (UK)
I'm not suggesting anything between Margaret and Arthur but she was a bit old to be 'adopted'. Maybe he was her godfather?
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 02 February 12 11:36 GMT (UK)
1901 census, RG13, 136, 71, 3
Tavistock Square, St Pancras

Edward B Knobel is Director Photographic Plate Company!

Daughter Margaret H Knobel is at home.

Wikipedia again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hugh_Harman
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: MargP on Thursday 02 February 12 11:37 GMT (UK)
Hi

You can purchase the divorce records from the following link, I had my dads from there and there was a lot of unexpected information in them.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=ROUSBY&txtfirstdate=1858&txtlastdate=1937&txtrestriction=j77&hdnsorttype=Reference&j=1

Margp
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: bobfilm on Thursday 02 February 12 11:49 GMT (UK)
Thanks MargP - will try that
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: MarieY on Friday 25 March 16 02:12 GMT (UK)
My Grandmother was Margaret Elizabeth Harman and I think she was the Grandaughter of Amelia and Alfred Hugh Harman. She was born in Australia and married William John Pretty. Any information about her father would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Marriages for Alfred Hugh Harman?
Post by: AnnLadyP on Monday 05 February 18 22:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Bob,
I'm the Great Great Grandaughter of Alfred Hugh Harman and I'm afraid he caused a bit of a family scandal. He did indeed leave his wife and the lady he is buried next to is not, and never was, his wife. I have a copy of his will and a few other papers, feel free to ask me anything and if I can answer I will. My Grandfather was very keen to keep the scandal secret.....I suppose I have just let the cat out of the bag.