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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: ToddLangtry on Thursday 15 March 12 12:35 GMT (UK)
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HI
I'm trying to find where a place called "Cherrymount" and "Tullykinally" is. It appears in parish registers for a number of my Langtry forebears, but I've been unable to find it on any map (with multiple spelling variations looked for).
I had concluded that perhaps "Cherrymount" was a house name, but have noticed that there is now a Cherrymount estate called Cherrymount Hill on the Cornakinnegar Road near Lurgan, which would fit, as the family had lands in Cornakinnegar at the same time. Any thoughts?
Also, I have a list of Freeholders in 1710 and one of my ancestros had land at Tullykinally or Tollykinally, along with parcels at Donegreagh and Carrickenegaire(Cornikinnegar). I have found the latter two, but am stumped by "Tullykinally"
Any help appreciated!
Thanks
Todd Langtry
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Hi Todd,
Tullykinally is an old spelling for the townland of Tullyronnelly in the parish of Shankill, division of Cornakinnegar. It has also been called Tolliconnally.
To view the townland meaning click on the following link,
http://lurgan-ancestry.co.uk/index.php/irish-land-divisions/parishs-of-shankill/
I have listed the Freeholder records for 1813, and there is a William Langtree, from Cornikinigan listed, this can be viewed by click on the following,
http://lurgan-ancestry.co.uk/index.php/freeholder-return-of-oneilland-east-for-1813-1832/registered-freeholders-in-oneilland-east-for-1813/
If you want directions on how to view Cherrymount from an old Lurgan map, get in touch. It was a farm / house as you thought.
Good Luck,
Andy.
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WOW - thanks Andy that's great stuff!
I would love directions on how to find Cherrymount - - its eluded me on web-searches, google maps and at PRONI looking at old maps when I was there last year....I'm in awe of your ability to locate it!
For fear of asking too much, the other one that has stumped me is Bellview or Bellvue around the same era - late 1700's to mid 1800's. Half the time it seems to be around Lurgan/Kilmore/Richill/Clanroll/Ballyleny and the other part of the time it seems possible its in Meath. Again, having searched and searched I think it must be a house name.
The details I know are that John Langtry lived at Kilmore but moved to Bellview "on account of troubles with the honourable Mr Brownlow, later lord Lurgan". I'm GUESSING the move occurred about the 1780's. He died there in 1817 and his wife (Ann HELAY/HILARY) died there in 1839. His children were baptised as follows :-
1) 1768 Hillarysbay or Clanroll.
2) 1770 Kilmore/Clanroll (m 1808 Richill)
3) 1773 not known where Bap (m 1809 in VA, USA)
4) 1781 Clanroll,(baptised aged 4), m1796 I think in Lurgan
5) 1781 Clanroll (baptised age 1.5)
6) 1781 Clanroll, m Loughgall, d Kimore
7) 1784 Lurgan, d in Kilnaharvey/Mullalelish
8 ) 1787 Clanroll
9) 1789 Kilmore
10) 1791 Balyleny
11) 1792 unknown
12) 1793 Balyleny
My guess is that the family became quakers for a while (which may have been the source of the problem with Brownlow) perhaps around 1770, they then came back to COI in 1781 when they got three children baptised. The fact that the children are baptised in Clanroll/Balyleny makes me think Bellvue/Bellview must be near there. Alternatively they moved after 1793.
The MEATH idea comes from the fact that other members of the family (2nd cousins) were settling in Meath around 1790-1800, though I don't believe its a likely possibility.
I know the OGLE's, who were cousins at the time, had a property/land called Bellview south of Dublin at the time, but I'm virtually certain this is not the same property as no Langtry BDMs appear there, or nearby, at all.
Thanks again
Todd
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Hi Todd,
The website to locate an old map of Lurgan is named PlaceNames NI and is located at the link,
http://www.placenamesni.org/
The following link will hopefully bring you to the historic map of Lurgan in 1850. You can view Cherrymount and also Bellevue House,
http://www.placenamesni.org/placenamesniviewer/map.phtml?me=305234,355901,311234,360901
You will need to select the Historic map of either 1830 or 1850 and click on the map twice to get the historic map. You can then pan around the Lurgan area and also zoom in and out.
Cherrymount is clearly marked as is Bellevue House.
Hope this goes in some way to help you get some info. on your family history,
Andy.
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That's fantastic - thanks so much Andy. I needed to tick the 1850 map layer which only becomes visible on very tight zoom - I assume you must have a copy of the map as it took quite a while to find them. I ended up finding three Bellview/Bellvue's (sigh) while looking for Cherrymount - one well off to the east by Hillborough, and two by Richill - I'm punting on one of the latter two. Luckily only found the one Cherrymount!
Thanks again.
Todd
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Hi Todd,
You must have viewed the map of Lurgan without zooming in, but Cherrymount wasnt too far from Bellevue. Am from Lurgan and remember Bellevue House for years before it was demolished and a housing estate Belvedere Manor being built on the land. I also have seen a new housing development being built on the Cornakinnegar Road named Cherrymount !!!
The second link I sent was for the Lurgan area, did you use the zoom facility to 'zone in' in areas and pan around the town of Lurgan.
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Hi Andy
Ah-ha! Found it...dont know how I missed it the first time....that Bellevue (on th "L" of SHANKILL) is much more likely.
I did zoom in but started south-west of the town by Richill and scanned across then up....didnt think it would be quite so close to Lurgan as I thought I'd looked at old maps of Lurgan in PRONI and couldnt find it.
I was in Lurgan last October and wandered around the old Shankill graveyard - lovely spot, once you find the entrance! Next time I come over I'll try and see Brownlow's house and Cherrymount. Sad to hear Bellevue is no longer there.
Thanks again for all your help - and for pointing me at a new resource that will help me no-end. I'm sure Ive been to that site a few times looking for townlands, but never realised the old map sat 'under' it.
Regards
Todd
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Hi Todd,
There is a book you may be interested in,
The linen houses of the Bann Valley: the story of their families By Kathleen Rankin
You can preview some of the pages on the following link,
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9CrlUHICHTIC&pg=PR16&dq=linen+industry+bann&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pYhrT8HDDobE8gPi47DdBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=linen%20industry%20bann&f=false
Looks an interesting read. Samuel Bell resided at Bellvue in Lurgan who is mentioned in the book.
Andy.
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Interesting - and thanks for bringing it to my attention. The family were mostly Merchants, Farmers and Shoe Makers as far as I can tell. I also know that we married with the Bells in the 1800's and there are some Langtry-Bell's still around today, so perhaps there is a link there!
I will keep an eye out for the book at any library's I visit (might try the Linen House Library next time I'm over!).
Thanks again.
Todd
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Hi Todd,
Glad to have been of some help, hope my website also helped, www.lurgan-ancestry.co.uk
Been working at it for over a year and still have so much information to upload, it will take another year to get up-to-date and am still gathering as much stuff as I can.
The Linen Hall Library in Belfast is a great source of info, as are the Public Library's in Armagh. All the best and nice to help someone who's ancestors came from Lurgan.
Andy.
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Hello Todd
I wonder if in your research of your Hilary line (...his wife (Ann HELAY/HILARY)), if you have come accross a marriage with a female Hillary and a male Douglas?
My Douglas line comes from the Lurgan area (some of the family settling in Kinnego, which is next door to Clanrolla). The name 'Hillary" is a name that carried forward for a few generations, as the first name of boys. I have a theory that there was a marraige early 1700's (or late 16oo's) that would have resulted in the name given to the boys (there was a Hillary Douglas, for instance, that was a freeholder in Kinnego).
In 1726, there is a William Douglas, listed as a weaver, living in Clanroll, 10 years later he is in Lisacorran. In Clanrolla, there is a Henry Hillary, farmer, in Clanrolla (1735).
(Thank you, Andy, for everything that you have shared on your site)
Jenni
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Hi Jenni
I'm afraid I have no other details of the Helay/Hillery/Hillary line other than the marriage into the Langtry's.
We have the same thing happening in our line several sons/grandsons/g grandsons with Hillary as either a first of middle name - all went to the US, Virginia mostly.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Todd
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Not problem, and Thanks for getting back to me. It is good to know, though, that you also have Hillary's in your family because of that marriage .... helps me feel like I am on the right track :o)
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IHi again
I remembered I had some old notes on the Helay's, and dug them out :-
Ann Helay was the dau of Henry Helay and Catherine Thompson. The Helay family reportedly went from England to Ulster in Cromwells time (as did our family) . Their family lived at Helays mount (also sometimes called Langtry's mount) on the shores of Lough Neagh - Im afraid I dont know where specifically. The Helays advanced the Langtry's money to get into the shipping business in the early 1800's.
Ann Helay[Langtry] died 20/4/1839 at Richill, Armagh.
Also of note is that her first son Henry Langtry (b1768) is recorded as being born at "Hillarysbay"...but I have not been able to find this. The other children are born in Clanroll(Klinrowl)...I'm guessing its between Lough Neagh and Lurgan/Richill/Canroll
Let me know if you ake any progress.
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Hi Todd,
I have come across some photos of Cherrymount House, Lurgan and Kilmore House, Kilmore Road also Lurgan.
It states that both houses were built by the Langtry family in the 1800's.
The houses are described in detail and owners listed also.
I will Email these to you. Think they will be of interest to you.
Regards,
Andy.
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Hi Todd ... me again
Thought I would touch base with you. I have checked with the Quakers records at the Friends library, and they have no record of a Hillary / Douglas marriage (I had hoped to find it with them as the Hillary's were Quaker).
BUT .... looking at the Griffiths and freeholder records, my x4 great grandfather's brother, Moses Douglas, has a George Langtry listed as a life in the freeholders listings! Do you think that is a connection? Do you have a George Langtry? Hummm .... perhaps this is where the Hillary names comes in :o/
This was for a farm in Kinnego, (Kinnego is next to Clanrolla), that stayed in the Douglas family until Moses's nephew bequeathed it and it was sold (early 1900's).
Jenni
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Hi Jenni,
I have been in touch with Todd and sent him photos of Cherrymount House and Kilmore House, built by his ancestors, will send them to you also. George Langtry is mentioned in them.
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Hello Andy
Thank you! Would love to see what you have, not sure if it leads me in the wrong direction, but who knows. Do you need my email address?
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Hi Jenni,
I have sent pictures of the houses built by the Langtry family in Lurgan to you.
I came across an article on George Langtry, will hunt it out and send that to you also.
Andy
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Hi Jenni,
I have attached the article on George Langtry. It seems he moved from Lurgan to Belfast, the Fortwilliam area which is in the north of the city.
Andy
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Hi
I live in Cherrymount House, where the Langtry's & the Ellis's lived before us.
Let me know if you need any more information.
Sheelin
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Hi Sheelin,
Are you related to the McKeagney's who have the Chemist shops in Lurgan.
Andy
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Andy
Yes, that's where I work.
Sheelin
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Hi Sheelin,
You might remember my Dad, Jim McElroy the barber, had a shop in Edward Street for many years.
I will send you the info on Cherrymount House if you are interested in the history of the house. Am not too sure where the house is situated, I went to St. Michael's school on Cornakinnegar Road and know the road out to Aghagallon but cannot recall the house in question.
Regards,
Andy.
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HI Andy
Of course I remember your Dad. I lived above the barbers when I first got married.
The house is the first past St Michaels on the right hand side going to Aghagallon. No. 45 down the long lane.
I'd love to see the information.
Sheelin
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Hi Andy,
I have just joined this forum. I have been looking through your posts on Cherrymount & Tullykinally near Lurgan. George Langtry is my 3rd Great Grandfather. I am very interested in the photos you sent to Ross Langtry and any information you have on the Langtry family in Northern Ireland. Ross sent me some information a few years ago to help me set up my tree. I am hoping to come to Northern Ireland in September this year all being well. I live in Australia. I am hoping to try and visit some of the areas where they lived and maybe find a cemetery as well. My GG Aunt Maria Langtry married into the Waddells I have some info on them as well. I am also interested in the Caldwells. Anyway any help you can give me on searching out my ancestors will be gratefully received.
Warm regards, Berenice
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Hi ~ Have not used this website much in the past, although have read some posts with interest. Would appreciate clarification (to extent possible) regarding Langtry/Langtree family in Armagh and Meath, especially prior to 1870 going back.. I've read and researched, but am now trying to recheck and see how all are interrelated. Would appreciate hearing from others researching these families. Thanks!
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Hi Todd
Just came across this post. You mentioned Donegreagh. My mother’s family had a farm in that area around the 1790s. You said you had a list of freeholders for this area. I was wondering if you could share this with me. It would be much appreciated.
Thank you
Siobhan
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Hi Siobhan, I heard of you through Jim Clarke. Am a cousin of some degree to you. Have just joined rootschat. And Hello Todd - a previous convo re Kilmore House, on Kilmore Rd, Lurgan, built by George Langtry, is of interest as there was a mention of possible photographs which the present owners would be delighted to see.
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Hello,
I wanted to know if anybody knew of anywhere in Northern Ireland that was formerly known as the Cordner Palace. I have found information that it is in Northern Ireland, but I have no idea where. Any information is helpful.
Thanks!
-Matthew
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Here is the story I found about our Cordner family called "THE CORDNER PALACE"
In Lurgen County, north of Belfast, Ireland which is a part of Scotland, called North Scotland, there was standing a Palace which belonged to the Cordners.The last name that I can ascertain who lived there was a William Corner, and so far as I know his descendents still live there.This Palace was still standing during World War II, in 1945, but the Government of Great Britain had taken it and turned it into an apartment house and taken the beaufiful and spacious lawns and gardens and turned them into truck farms.
::) ::)
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/n/e/l/Elizabeth-A-Nelson/BOOK-0001/0003-0002.html
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Here is the story I found about our Cordner family called "THE CORDNER PALACE"
In Lurgen County, north of Belfast, Ireland which is a part of Scotland, called North Scotland, there was standing a Palace which belonged to the Cordners.The last name that I can ascertain who lived there was a William Corner, and so far as I know his descendents still live there.This Palace was still standing during World War II, in 1945, but the Government of Great Britain had taken it and turned it into an apartment house and taken the beaufiful and spacious lawns and gardens and turned them into truck farms.
::) ::)
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/n/e/l/Elizabeth-A-Nelson/BOOK-0001/0003-0002.html
I honestly don't know when I've laughed so hard at a 'family tree' and it gets better if you read further!
MARY MAGDELENE CORDNER, b. January 01, 1828, Armagh, Montiaghs, Derryinner, Ireland; d. November 29, 1917, at home of dau. Margaret Nelson Kay, 1926 Estrella, Los Angeles, Los Angeles County, California.
Irish place names are usually written as townland + civil parish + country. Not only has author reversed it all but the townland is Derryinver not Derryinner (which I believe is a place in Co. Galway). Later the write-up goes on to say that Mary was christened in 1832 in Peterhead, Aberdeen, Scotland daughter of a James Cordner. Strange that a child born to John Cordner in Armagh, Ireland should have been christened in the northeast of Scotland 4 years later with a different father (and a possible different mother listed somewhere there also).
Going back to the supposed 'Cordner Palace' mention quoted above- Lurgan (not Lurgen) is south of Belfast not north, Ireland is not part of Scotland.
According to this page the lineage can be traced back to a John Cordner born Cordner Palace in Gallowey, Scotland died Cordner Palace in Lurgan, Co. Armagh, Ireland.
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/n/e/l/Elizabeth-A-Nelson/BOOK-0001/0003-0001.html
::) ::) ::)
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aghadowey
I see that page is entitled 'Corner fraternity in Edinborough Scotland'
I chuckled on finding there are entries https://wikidiff.com/edinborough/edinburgh and on Quora
"What is the difference between Edinburgh and Edinborough?
The former is the Capital of Scotland, the latter is a completely made-up word."
Then debate the correct local pronunciation Eh-din-burr-ruh or sometimes Eh-din-bra or Edin-bruh or Embra if from Glasgow...concluding
"The non-antiquated Scots word burgh is pronounced burruh, and so Edinburgh is pronounced Edinburruh and applies to all Scottish place names with the ending.
The similar English word borough tends to be pronounced burra by the English, but with some variety in the final vowel sound depending on the speaker’s regional accent."
Peterhead in Aberdonian is of course Peterheid. https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterheid
Matthew the size of the property in both Ireland and Scotland have perhaps got embellished over time & memory between 1780 & J. G. Cordner's recollections 1936 in Lincoln, Nebr. Google produces no results I can find in either place. The 'Palace' around Lurgan is Brownlow House of the Brownlow family from 1610's. They sold it 1893 due to a change in fortunes. During WW1 was the HQ of the Royal Irish Rifles, used WW2 as an American HQ & base. https://www.belfastentries.com/places/brownlow-hq-ww2/
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Okay, thanks you so much!
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Okay, thanks you so much!
Please let us know if there's anything we can help you with in researching the Cordners- there is likely to be some reliable resources here in Northern Ireland :)
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Hi “Coill mo Cholm Óg”
Not sure how to use this site; only my second time on here as I got a notification today. I know my maternal family had a farm known as Donegreagh around Cherrymount in the late 1700s. They were Casey Family. How would we be related? Be really interested to find this out.
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To Malachy 51. I know there was an Isabella Gallery born August 8th 1854 and of the Donegreagh family, who married an Edward Casey in 1878 and had quite a large family. Two of her daughters became nuns. Her parents were David & Ellen ( or Eleanor ) Gallery.
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I know there was an Isabella Gallery born August 8th 1854 and of the Donegreagh family, who married an Edward Casey in 1878 and had quite a large family.
Just adding the link for the 1878 marriage for others reading-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1878/11100/8062600.pdf
Donagreagh townland
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/magheralin/cornakinnegar/donagreagh/
Might this be the death of Isabella's father - 1887?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06217/4779107.pdf
From PRONI Will Calendars:
The Will of David Gallery late of Donagreagh County Armagh Farmer who died 4 June 1887 at same place was proved at Armagh by Joseph Gallery of Donagreagh and Bernard Gallery of Drumnakerne both in said County Farmers the Executors.
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Yes, Kiltaglassan, that agrees with what we know.
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Yes, Kiltaglassan, that agrees with what we know.
Thanks :)
It's always important to post links to information found.
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Point taken :)
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Edward and Isabella were my great grandparents. My grandfather was David, one of their 10 children.
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Isabella's older brother, Joseph, 1850-1907, was my great-grandfather. Their parents were David & Ellen Gallery( née Doran ). So we are third cousins.
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Hi Folks & Happy 2023.
I've been our of circulation for the latter half of 2022 due to travel, house moves, renovations etc) and am just getting back to some notifications sent to me in July/August of 2022. For some reason took me back to page 3 of this chat in 2012 where folks were asking me questions and I can't see that I've responded - apologies, not sure what happened there.
Good news is that since 2012 I've done a lot more research on the Langtry's of N Ireland and Meath, and thanks to DNA have also fleshed out a number of the families of Langtry wives (on my direct line of descent). Happy to try and answer any questions you may have.
I actually drove up to Cherrymount and knocked on the door to see if anyone was home, but sadly no one was. I didn't take any photos as I felt that would be intrusive. Would love to try again next time I'm over there.
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Greetings, neighbour by a few generations :-) Having taken part in an archaeological dig in Donegreagh, the next townland to Cornakinnegar last August , I feel even more connected to this place and it's history. But for to the closure of the walkway over the railway track about 20 years ago, anyone could have made their way on foot directly from my townland to yours. From Cherrymount there is a laneway with stone-built walls and the remnants of a stone paved lane which led to an old cemetery in the field named Kilmocholmóg. Folk memory recounts the tale of the last 2 burials which took place there, one prior to the completion of the Belfast to Portadown railway, and one shortly after, placing them c. late 1830's and early 1840's (ref. http://www.craigavonhistoricalsociety.org.uk/rev/frielrailwayscraig.php ) The community based archaeology project is searching for evidence of an ancient church, since the name of the field means 'church of my young Colmán'. No written records of a church exist, and niether do the oldest detailed maps for the area ( 1751 , Brownlow Papers ) indicate any such building, but the dig revealed the remains of a stone structure with a door pivot stone, and medieval pottery sherds. Within metres a collapsed souterrain was also discovered, and such structures were often associated with a church. The experts were all very excited and funding will be sought by the Historic Environment Division of Armagh, Banbridge & Craigavon Borough Council to do a more extensive excavation next summer. https://lurgantownscapeheritage.com/event/7-december-lurgan-lecture-digging-deeper-into-kilmocholmog/ Enjoy !
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Wow, thanks for sharing. I'll have to look up the historical society before my next trip (May this year) to see what they have. The names you mentioned are very familiar to me the family had land in Cornakinnegar as well as Kilmore and central Lurgan and had lands elsewhere rented from the Brownlowes. Good luck with the search, the souterrain is a really good sign.
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Isabella's older brother, Joseph, 1850-1907, was my great-grandfather. Their parents were David & Ellen Gallery( née Doran ).
Ellen Gallery died 27 May 1884 at Donegreagh [sic]. Aged 67 yrs.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06329/4815086.pdf
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Good evening
I would have loved to have been involved in the archeological dig. Would have been fascinating, I’m sure.
Can anyone tell me When was the first building on the site at Donegreagh Farm?
Also, does anyone have any information on the Casey Family that Isabella married into?
Their family home was Stormount, on The Kiln Road in Lurgan. Would love to know when this house was built. Not sure where to find any of this info?
Thanking you in anticipation
Siobhan
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Their family home was Stormount, on The Kiln Road in Lurgan. Would love to know when this house was built. Not sure where to find any of this info?
Try PRONI Historical Maps Viewer:
https://apps.spatialni.gov.uk/PRONIApplication/ (type Turmoyra in Search Box)
Stormount House (in southern part of Turmoyra T/L).
Named in the OSNI Historical Second Edition (1846-1862).
Also in the OSNI Historical First Edition (1832-1846) - but not named.
Kiln Road - Turmoyra townland
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/seagoe/brownlows-derry/turmoyra/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5200836#map=12/54.4633/-6.3367
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Thanks for the info.
Got to see the area where Stormount would have been.
It was demolished to make way for Craigavon.
What a waste of such a historical building.
The Silverwood Hotel, previously known as The Country Club, was built on the site.