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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: crisssyk on Sunday 15 April 12 13:43 BST (UK)
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Hi. Found this forum while searching my Kirk family tree. I'm looking for information on the genealogy of Rees John Kirk 1795 - 1858. (married to Christian Guthrie Carnegie) I noticed Sancti posted information about his family. My great grandfather, Dr. William Haley Kirk, said his cousin sailed with David Livingston on his first expedition up the Zambian River. This was Sir John Kirk. But I am having difficulty finding the root connection. Is there anyone on this forum that might have done a family tree for this Kirk family? I know that Rees (Rev) John Kirk fathers' name was John Kirk and a baker. But that is all that I am able to find. I am guessing that this John Kirk, the baker, had another son, that would possibly be my great, great, great grandfather. Any help would be appreciated :D (apologies for not posting the attached quote from Sancti correctly...not quite sure how this works just yet, but the information is next to this message)
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Hi crisssyk
I have split your new post from here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,555932.0.html
This is I think the census entry from Sancti that you mention:
Interesting record for 1841 census
Rees John Kirk 40
Christian Kirk 35
Alexander Kirk 10
John Kirk 8
Elizabeth Kirk 6
James Kirk 3
Catherine Carnegie 35 born Scotland Occupation: Ind
William Allan 25 born Angus Occupation: Tutor In Family
Helen Clark 25
Jessie Clark 20
Margt Lawrence 15
Andro Gloak 12
Address: Manse Of Arbirlot Arbirlot Angus
Once we know what particular county of Scotland the family is from we can move on to there.
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Monica
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Just some dates to help with the searches for Dr (then Sir) John Kirk:
Sir John Kirk (1832-1922). Kirk was appointed to the role of physician for David Livingston’s second Zambesi Expedition and eventually accompanied Livingston on most of his travels in Africa....
http://aluka2.wordpress.com/category/archives-preservation-and-higher-education/page/4/
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Some further details on Sir John Kirk which may help you identify his line:
He looks to have been born on 19 December 1832 at Barry, Forfarshire, son of John Kirk who died in 1858), minister of Barry, and his wife, Christian Guthrie, née Carnegie - her date is given in 1865. His eldest brother was the engineer Alexander Carnegie Kirk.
Chrissyk, to connect to this Kirk line, you could check the parents showing on the death certificate for John Kirk who died in 1858. If this is the John Kirk, baker, that you have found, you should also be able to confirm his wife's name to help you with your searches.
What were the parents' names of your Dr. William Haley Kirk and what dates do you have?
Monica
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Monica, thank your for formatting this properly :D I hope I learn to post correctly, soon!
Information about: Reec (Rev) John Kirk (b. 1795 @ St Andrew's d. 1858) Church of Scotland Minister of Arbirlot 1837-43, Free Church of Scotland Minister of Arbirlot M. 10 Dec 1828 Christian Guthrie Carnegie (b. 10 Jan 1803 d. 22 June 1865) Hi, s father was John Kirk, a baker. They were from the Arbirlot, Angus, Scotland area.
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James Kirk (b. 1782-1861) m. Jane McConnell 1786-1865
~ Rev. James Kirk (1822-1895 ) m. Abbie Anna Morrill (1835-1913)
~ William Haley Kirk (b. 1874-1945) m. Lucy Fleming
Looking for the connection for James Kirk to Sir John Kirk as they are to be cousins.
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Monica, Thank you again for all the "tips" you have given me. I have been searching for YEARS to find the roots of my Kirk family, and hopefully, one day, I will find the link between Sir John and my great, great great grandfather. You mentioned finding and checking the death certificate of his father, Reec (Rev) John Kirk--which would show his parents names....but how would I find this? Is this something of easy access to obtain? Thank you again...Chris (sorry for so many questions...but I have found that when I ask a lot of them, I glean so much information!! :D
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Sorry Chrissy for disappearing early - sometimes real life takes over, booo!
You have the main details on Rev. John Kirk, wife, marriage, children show as:
1. Alexander CARNEGIE KIRK b. 16 July 1830/ chr. 1 Aug. 1830 Barry
2. John KIRK b. 9 Dec. 1832/ chr. 6 Jan. 1833 Barry
3. Elizabeth Jane KIRK b. 29 Sept. 1834/ chr. 19 Oct. 1834 Barry
4. James KIRK b. 8 April 1838/ chr. 20 May 1838 Arbirlot
Don't think they had more children than these as (Sir) John Kirk is quoted as being one of three boys and one sister in bios of his life. Further details also here http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I497&tree=Fasti
To confirm Rev. John Kirk's parents, including mother's name the only source is the pay to view site, www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk Have you used this before? It is the main source for original BMD and parish register entries, including original census images. Costs are reasonable.
Not sure how much detailed Scottish research you may have done and therefore how familiar you may be with resources. If you can give us some indication, we can advice better :)
Regarding your direct line:
James Kirk (b. 1782-1861) m. Jane McConnell 1786-1865
~ Rev. James Kirk (1822-1895 ) m. Abbie Anna Morrill (1835-1913)
~ William Haley Kirk (b. 1874-1945) m. Lucy Fleming
Have you been able to trace James b. 1782 further to confirm his parents? Did he die in Scotland (with all the big benefits of great info from Scottish death certs!)?
Monica
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Possible birth details for Rev. John Kirk from what you have:
John KIRK b. 2 Dec. 1795/ chr. 6 Dec. 1795 in St. Andrews And St. Leonards, Fife,
Parents John KIRK and Margaret TODDIE
Their marriage/banns shows on 17 Nov. 1787 in St. Andrews And St. Leonards.
This takes you out of the birth year we had for your James Kirk of 1782 I would say....
Other children (all at St. Andrews And St. Leonards, Fife) showing to John Kirk and Margaret Toddie include:
1. Elizabeth 1792
2. Alexander 1794
3. Isabel 1797
4. Isabel 1799, twin to James
5. James 1799
I am making guesses here on the info we have so far for Rev John Kirk. His death cert will help in confirming parents' names.
Monica
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Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae entry for Rev John Kirk might be of interest, see page 423
http://www.archive.org/stream/fastiecclesiu05scotuoft#page/n433/mode/2up
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Depending on how lucky you get with records on SP, these records could be worth looking into ...
http://www.fifefhs.org/Records/Deeds/standrews.htm
TODDIE, JAMES: late mason and one of the Bailies in St Andrews, & Isabelle Watt, his spouse; Mutual Disp & Deed of Settlement; [their only surv dau was Isabell Toddie, spouse of John Davidson, Officer of Customs in St Andrews; dec dau was Mgt Toddie, m to John Kirk, with children, John, Elizabeth & Betty Kirk]; 18 Oct 1820 [B65/7/1 fol 281-86; B65/22/35]
MOTION, JAMES: with John Kirk, Henry Berwick, and John Niven, all bakers in St Andrews, 12-yr Tack of Flour Mill and mill lands belonging to sd city form Magistrates of St Andrews; 1 Sep 1795 [B65/5/8 fol 24-27]
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This is all great information for me to thoroughly investigate!! Thank you!
I can see that the James dates don't line up, but perhaps John Kirk, the baker, had a brother, James. I estimate that John Kirk was probably born about 1757 (since he married in 1787). I estimate my James Kirk's father should have been born about 1760-- close enough age for brothers. Just a thought.
I re-read the information passed on through old letters that I have and it clearly states my great grandfather Dr. William Kirk said, "that his uncle had fun with David Livingston on his first expedition up the Zambian River." In another old newspaper article in which he was interviewed, Dr. Kirk stated he has the surgical instruments of an Irish Ancestor who who was a surgeon at the Battle of Waterloo and had a relative that was on the first English boat to sail up the Congo River in Africa.
So I am convinced there must be a connection to Sir John Kirk's family--and am determined to find it!! :)
Also, interesting to note, John Kirk b. apx. 1757 (married to Margaret Toddie) named their children John, Alexander, Elizabeth, James and Isebela.
Their son, Reec (Rev) John Kirk b. 1795 (married to Christian Guthrie Carnegie) also named their children, John, Alexander, Elizabeth and James--guess they didn't have the 5th child to name after Isebela. Was this a common thing to do back then?
My search is now finding the parents/brothers of John Kirk, the baker--b. apx. 1757, married to Margaret Toddie. Thanks for any help.
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Chris, on the issue of names and those used for children. Not sure if you have come across Scottish naming pattern (also used by the Irish). There are many links on this, I like this one www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
Bear in mind the 'health warnings'! Not always used or in the same order...but never ceases to amaze me how often it was used.
Surnames for middle names were often also used. Again, something to look out for.
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The Rev. John Kirk was minister here at Arbirlot Church near Arbroath, Angus, Scotland. He is buried round the back next to the Church wall. He was previously minister at Barry where his eldest sons were born. He is noted for being the minister who 'led the congregation out' at the time of the 1843 disruption and was therefore also the first 'free church minister here. His son, later Sir John Kirk was surgeon and scientist to David Livingston and was a remarkable photographer, said to be the first man to use a camera on the continent of Africa. He was later British resident at Zanzibar and became an anti-slavery campaigner. Many of his photos are in the National Library of Scotland and books have been written on him.
Another son, Alexander Kirk was almost as well known in his day as a noted marine engineer. He invented a gizmo for the triple expansion steam engine which made it much more efficient and also a system for cooling paraffin( the oil industry began in Scotland extracting oil from shale) which led to oil tankers and refrigerated ships.
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Hi, I'm doing a research on Rev John Kirk's children and the like. Drop me a line if you are interested.
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I have done a bit of research as I am collecting information for a parish History that I will write in the fullness of time!!!. I only really know about the Rev John Kirk and his sons Sir John and Alexander though.
Did you know that the Rev John Kirk wrote a biography of Susannah Wesley. A slightly odd thing for a Church of Scotland Minister to write I would have thought! He led the Arbirlot congregation ''out'' at the Disruption of 1843.
Co-operation would be welcome. Get in touch!
D
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I can't help with Rev Kirk, but his predecessor was my 2nd cousin 5 times removed.
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I have done a bit of research as I am collecting information for a parish History that I will write in the fullness of time!!!. I only really know about the Rev John Kirk and his sons Sir John and Alexander though.
Did you know that the Rev John Kirk wrote a biography of Susannah Wesley. A slightly odd thing for a Church of Scotland Minister to write I would have thought! He led the Arbirlot congregation ''out'' at the Disruption of 1843.
Co-operation would be welcome. Get in touch!
D
Thank you for replying! I hadn't known that he wrote a biography of Susannah Wesley. Will check it out :)
Rev John also had another son James who was the youngest among brothers and he died in the Cape Colony at the age of 58. A daughter Elizabeth Jane married writer James Rose Black, but no luck finding further clues.
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I can't help with Rev Kirk, but his predecessor was my 2nd cousin 5 times removed.
Thank you! May I know his name? Still trying to wrap my head around the family tree...
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I can't help with Rev Kirk, but his predecessor was my 2nd cousin 5 times removed.
Thank you! May I know his name? Still trying to wrap my head around the family tree...
Rev Thomas Guthrie (1803-1873) was minister of Arbirlot before Rev Kirk.
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I can't help with Rev Kirk, but his predecessor was my 2nd cousin 5 times removed.
Thank you! May I know his name? Still trying to wrap my head around the family tree...
Rev Thomas Guthrie (1803-1873) was minister of Arbirlot before Rev Kirk.
Thanks! I wonder if it was a coincidence that Rev John's wife was named Christian Guthrie Carnegie though.
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Interesting question.
I consulted Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae on this.
Christian Guthrie Carnegie (1803-1865) was the daughter of Alexander Carnegie of Redhall (1762-1836), minister of Inverkeilor, and Elizabeth Skirving (d 1835), whose father Adam Skirving (1719-1803) was a tenant farmer at Garleton in East Lothian and wrote, among other things, the song 'Johnnie Cope'.
Alexander Carnegie was the son of John Carnegie (d 1805), minister of Inverkeilor, and Catherine Walker (d 1790), whose father was William Walker, farmer in St Fort in Fife.
Christian was the eldest daughter of Alexander Carnegie and Elizabeth Skirving, and their sons were named John and Adam, suggesting that they followed the naming tradition. In which case, you might expect Elizabeth Skirving's mother to have been Christian Guthrie. I can find no evidence for this, however.
There is, in the National Galleries of Scotland, a portrait of Adam Skirving bequeathed in 1901 by David Ainslie, and I note with interest a marriage of an Adam Skirvine to a Jean Ainslie in Athelstanefore in 1748. The artist was Adam's son Archibald Skirving (1749-1819), who also painted several notable persons of his day. This David Ainslie was probably the son of William Ainslie and Martha Skirving, baptised in Leith in 1813.
Adam Skirvine seems to have been born in Athelstaneford, son of Archibald Skirvine and Grizel Howden (spellings vary!). In 1803 a David Skirving married an Elizabeth Carnegie in Athelstaneford; their first son was Adam, but their daughter was named Janet so Elizabeth's mother was probably not named Christian.
So there is no obvious family reason for Alexander Carnegie and Elizabeth Skirving's first daughter to be named Christian Guthrie.
There is no Christian (or variants) Guthrie in any part of the extended family of the Rev Thomas Guthrie until his eldest daughter Christina, plainly named after her maternal grandmother Christina Chalmers, was born at Arbirlot in 1833.
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Interesting question.
I consulted Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae on this.
Christian Guthrie Carnegie (1803-1865) was the daughter of Alexander Carnegie of Redhall (1762-1836), minister of Inverkeilor, and Elizabeth Skirving (d 1835), whose father Adam Skirving (1719-1803) was a tenant farmer at Garleton in East Lothian and wrote, among other things, the song 'Johnnie Cope'.
Alexander Carnegie was the son of John Carnegie (d 1805), minister of Inverkeilor, and Catherine Walker (d 1790), whose father was William Walker, farmer in St Fort in Fife.
Christian was the eldest daughter of Alexander Carnegie and Elizabeth Skirving, and their sons were named John and Adam, suggesting that they followed the naming tradition. In which case, you might expect Elizabeth Skirving's mother to have been Christian Guthrie. I can find no evidence for this, however.
There is, in the National Galleries of Scotland, a portrait of Adam Skirving bequeathed in 1901 by David Ainslie, and I note with interest a marriage of an Adam Skirvine to a Jean Ainslie in Athelstanefore in 1748. The artist was Adam's son Archibald Skirving (1749-1819), who also painted several notable persons of his day. This David Ainslie was probably the son of William Ainslie and Martha Skirving, baptised in Leith in 1813.
Adam Skirvine seems to have been born in Athelstaneford, son of Archibald Skirvine and Grizel Howden (spellings vary!). In 1803 a David Skirving married an Elizabeth Carnegie in Athelstaneford; their first son was Adam, but their daughter was named Janet so Elizabeth's mother was probably not named Christian.
So there is no obvious family reason for Alexander Carnegie and Elizabeth Skirving's first daughter to be named Christian Guthrie.
There is no Christian (or variants) Guthrie in any part of the extended family of the Rev Thomas Guthrie until his eldest daughter Christina, plainly named after her maternal grandmother Christina Chalmers, was born at Arbirlot in 1833.
Thank you very much for this detailed post. I have not the confidence to venture into researching Rev John's family or his wife's yet, hence my previous question. My current focus is his eldest son and others; nevertheless as things stand, I'm covering most of his (children's) descendants as well which is daunting.
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Well, if and when you start to be interested in the family of his predecessor for your parish history, let me know. No sense in re-doing what has already been done. I know of 729 descendants of the Rev Thomas Guthrie, and am in touch with several living ones.
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There is a photo of the Rev John Kirk here
https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/69865/arbroath-presbytery-perhaps-rev-dr-william-wilson-rev-john-kirk-seated-rev-thomas-dymock-standing?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=33 (https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/69865/arbroath-presbytery-perhaps-rev-dr-william-wilson-rev-john-kirk-seated-rev-thomas-dymock-standing?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=33)
and possibly also a portrait here
https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/33400/john-kirk?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=3 (https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/33400/john-kirk?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=3)
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There is a photo of the Rev John Kirk here
https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/69865/arbroath-presbytery-perhaps-rev-dr-william-wilson-rev-john-kirk-seated-rev-thomas-dymock-standing?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=33 (https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/69865/arbroath-presbytery-perhaps-rev-dr-william-wilson-rev-john-kirk-seated-rev-thomas-dymock-standing?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=33)
and possibly also a portrait here
https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/33400/john-kirk?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=3 (https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/33400/john-kirk?search=John%20Kirk&search_set_offset=3)
Thank you! :)