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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: wrudge on Friday 20 April 12 22:03 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I am trying to see if I can get more information (and determine the parents of my 4x great grandfather). Here is what I have found via familysearch:
I believe this to be his marriage record:
Groom's Name: Samuel Rudge
Bride's Name: Mary Lighham
Marriage Date: 07 Nov 1809
Marriage Place: Saint Phillips,Birmingham,Warwick,England
I believe this to be the baptism of Samuel Rudge but how do I confirm:
Name: Samuel Rudge
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 05 Jun 1789
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT MARTIN,BIRMINGHAM,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Rudge
Mother's Name: Catharine
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi
The 1851 census for Leicester has Samuel b 1789 in Sutton Warwickshire and Mary 1795 in Holbury, Shropshire
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Thanks Carole. I have the 1851 census information. Are you suggesting I have the wrong baptism information for Samuel Rudge? Tried looking for Sutton on a map and closest I see is Sutton Coldfield. Thank you for your help Carole.
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Hi
I honestly don't know. Sutton Coldfield is only around 7 miles from Birmingham so it would be quite possible for that IGI baptism to be the right one. The family may have moved nearer to Birmingham after Samuel's birth.
The 1809 marriage I am less certain about
In 1851 - Mary is 56. If her age is correct, she would only have been 14 in 1809
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Although it's highly unusual for a 14 year old to marry it was the minimum age for marriage providing the father gave his consent.
You would need to see the marriage entry as it should state this.
At present the question is more about what you don't have than what you do as this is the only Samuel Rudge in the area with a wife Mary.
jim
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Don't know if anyone's likely to see this, the thread has been quiet for a long time, but if anyone's interested I have an interesting theory about 'Mary Lighham', who I think is my GGGG Grandmother.
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For what it's worth (after all this time), I believe that Samuel Rudge was indeed born in Sutton Coldfield.
Samuel's first son was named Edward and 5 children were born to an Edward Rudge and Mary Ellis who married in Sutton Coldfield 2/3/1778:
Joanna bp.3/1/1783
Nancy bp.10/11/1784
Edward Ireland bp.8/10/1786 (died 1846)
Edward bp.5/10/1788
Mary bp.5/7/1793
As you can see, a son Edward Ireland Rudge was born 1786 BUT he didn't die until 1846 and I think the 'Edward' bp.1788 is a mistake on the part of the clergy when recording it in the register and should in fact read 'Samuel'. Why would they have 2 Edward's just 2 years apart? The 1788 baptism fits exactly with the age of Samuel Rudge.
Edward Ireland Rudge left a will and I was hoping it might mention a brother Samuel Rudge but alas not. Think Edward married as plain Edward to a Sarah Knowles 1808 Birmingham - his will refers often to a William Knowles whom I'm guessing was a brother in law.
Annette
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Hi Annette - glad someone was listening, and the Edward error in Sutton makes sense.
I’m descended from Mary Rudge (b 1817) daughter of Samuel & Mary Rudge.
Another of Samuel & Mary’s daughters, Ann (b 1828) married John Lightborne in Harborne in 1828. I have only recently discovered this marriage but it opens up a wealth of possibilities.
The Lightbornes settled near Buckingham (John was born in Leckhampstead), but John’s father, Thomas, gives his birthplace as ‘Oldbury, Shropshire’. Also in the area is a John Lightborne, b 1801 in Oldbury.
I then thought about the Samuel Rudge/Mary Lighham (sic) marriage in 1809. Clearly, Lighham is not a true transcription. It's possible that it’s a botched attempt to write some version of Lightborne (note: Mary has written her own name – it’s not her mark!)?
If you remember, Mary’s birthplace on the 1851 census reads something like ‘Holbury, Shropshire’.
A search for names a bit like Lightborne and Lighham brings up a Mary Lighton, baptised in Oldbury, Worcestershire in 1793, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth.
Is it possible that ‘Holbury, Shropshire’ is a Leicestershire census taker’s misunderstanding of a Black Country accent actually saying ‘Oldbury’?
Also being baptised in Oldbury around this time are children of Thomas and Elizabeth Lightburne – Thomas (1795), Ann (1798) and John (1801). In a couple of cases, according to the IGI, these baptisms take place at the “Presbyterian Church, Oldbury by Halesowen, Shropshire’. Despite the ‘Shropshire’, this is the Oldbury actually then in Worcestershire, but which now forms part of Sandwell.
It is reasonable to assume that the Thomas baptised in 1795 is the father of the John who marries Ann Rudge in 1850. Also, that the John baptised in 1801 is the one also in Bucks.
If we have a double whammy mistranscription of Mary Lighham/Lighton’s name actually being Lightburne/Lightborne, then it looks like she is Thomas and John’s sister and that the Ann Rudge/John Lightborne marriage is one between first cousins.
So far, quite complicated, but here my brain gets really fried…
Having traced Thomas and John Lightborne, and possibly/probably Mary Lighham/Lighton, I wondered about Ann Lightborne. This I wasn’t expecting:
Ann Lightborne married Samuel Rudge in Harborne in 1815.
But this is a different Samuel Rudge. If you’ve looked for the children of Samuel and Mary, you’ve probably found the children of this marriage as well. The main ones of interest are:
John, b 1817, West Brom
Samuel, b 1818, West Brom
This Samuel is almost certainly the one who ended up becoming a JP and Mayor of Dudley. In 1851, John is to be found with his mother, who is now named Morris – Samuel died in 1826, and she remarried in 1830.
So, what we may well have is two different Samuel Rudges, who married sisters.
I do have a theory to connect them as well!
Dave
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I'm not personally connected to this family, just a willing 'helper' (when I can).
Reading through your post I would concur with what you say. I certainly think 'Holbury' on 1851 census should read 'Oldbury' and that Mary was the one baptised there in 1793 making her 16 when she married Samuel Rudge.
I'm guessing Samuel Rudge is the Samuel Rudge aged 74 death reg'd Sept.qtr.1861 Buckingham. Buckingham is the registration district for Leckhampstead - the 1861 census earlier that year has Samuel as a widower in Northamptonshire and it's plausible that either he became ill and he went to his daughter where he died or perhaps died suddenly on a visit. Who can say.
Annette
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Thanks Annette - I'd not found Samuel's death before, but only recently made the connection to Buckingham, so that would make sense - will send off for it!
I'd seen the 1861 census, but rejected it because of a) the sudden ignorance of his birthplace and b) the difference in age of his son Thomas (who should be 10 years older), but it probably is him.
Thanks for your willing help!
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What a nice surprise to see an email about a post update. It’s been a while since I did any ancestry work but I can’t wait to take a look at all this new information. Samuel Rudge (who married Mary) is my 4x great grandfather. Thank you both for your efforts.
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Incidentally, how I think the two Samuels are connected.
It’s connected to this site that you may have come across
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~rudged/gen/srudge.html
It refers to William Rudge (born c.1757), who “appears to be the William Rudge who married Catherine PAINE on 15 Jun 1783 at St. Martin, Birmingham, Warwick, England” and identifies three children from their burials at Smethwick.
More children can be identified from baptisms at the same church, including Samuel, who was born in 1789. This Samuel is the one who married one Ann Lightburn in Harborne in 1815.
My theory is that the Edward Rudge who married Mary Ellis and settled in Sutton Coldfield is the same Edward Rudge that was born in 1754 to William Rudge and Isobel Cooper. That would make him the brother of the 1757 William Rudge, and thus make our two Samuels first cousins. Proving it is another matter!