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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: adeline B on Monday 23 April 12 22:21 BST (UK)
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Where should I look for possible divorce records for my gg grandparents.I cant find shipping records for them so I do not know the exact date they came over to Canada but I do know my gg grandfather went back to Mere Green Birmingham by himself.I'm thinking now that they could of divorced :-\ Should I be looking for that information in Canada or England ??? James Brown and Fanny Thursfield married some time around 1885 give or take.
Thank you for any suggestions ;D
Adeline B
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Hi Adeline
The National Archives has this info sheet
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/divorce-after-1858.htm
and a search facility here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/divorce.htm?WT.lp=rg-3175
Dawn
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Hi Dawn,
Looked on the site and no such luck :-\ Was divorce common in those days? I've hit a brick wall with James Brown and being such a common name it seems impossible to find information on my James Brown. I don't want to give up, to stubborn I guess ;D
Left in the dark 8)
Adeline B
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Hi
They married in Dec qtr 1885 - did they have any children in England ? When and where was their last child born.
Where and when were James and Fanny born, do you have them on census after their marriage.
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
All of James and Fanny Brown's children were born in Birmingham.Found census of them after they Married,shows James as a police constable in 1891 living in Sutton Coldfield Birmingham. Both James and Fanny were born around Birmingham.I know the were both born early 1860S.I think they separated or divorced.Fanny died in Winnipeg,Manitoba 1939 and James in Mere green Birmingham Jan 31, 1955
Thank you
Adeline B :)
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Hi
Was Fanny name derived from Frances ?
There are several James Brown included in J77 divorce papers section at the national archive, did he have a middle name?
Judy
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Divorce papers in the National Archives are subject to a hundred years closure and so the details that can be found of any more recent divorce are very limited.
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Sorry, Frogs, I don't think that's true?
My grandfather divorced in 1926, and I was able to get the records without problems!
Records from 1858-1937 are available through TNA.
Survival rate of the files is 100% for cases 1858-1927, 80% for 1928-1937, but less than 0.2% after 1937.
Search facilities here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/divorce.htm
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So we know who we are talking about as they went to Canada sometime and could have divorced there. ::)
1901 Birmingham
James Brown age 39 Police Sergeant bn Sutton Coldfield (He also claimed to be 39 in 1891)
Fanny Brown age 41 bn Little Hay, Staffordshire (Shenstone on 1891)
children all bn Birmingham
Myra 14
Fanny 12
Elsie 10
Sidney 8
Dorothy 6
Adeline 3
Clara 1
also Sarah Ann Thursfield Fannys sister
The family apart from Sidney and his father James are all in Kings Norton district according to the 1911 free index.
Do you have James Brown in the UK in 1911 ??
Rosie
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Hi,
This looks like the family in the 1916 Canada Census of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta,
01, Selkirk, Manitoba
Kildonan
BROWN
Fannie Head female widow 54 None
Myra Daur female single 28 Dressmaker
Ellen Daur female single 24 Saleslady
Dorathy Daur female single 21 Saleslady
Adeline Daur female single 19 Saleslady
Clara Daur female single 16 Saleslady
All
POB: England
Anglican
Immigrated: 1910
Nationality: Canadian
Racial or Tribal Origin: English
Can speak English
Can't speak French
Can read and write
So Fanny is married in 1911 but calling herself a widow in Canada by 1916.
regards,
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
I wonder why she would call herself a widow on the census when her husband was still alive.Why not just get divorced :-\ Her name is Fanny which is not derived from Frances.So according to 1891 census they were living apart ???I do not know for sure that James Brown was in the UK 1911.I cant find his middle name, if I could find that out it would make researching them easier as there are a few James and fanny Brown for that time period ::)
Thank you for finding the family on the census for me,now I have an Idea of when they came to Canada :D
Adeline B
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Hi
The following passengers arrived in Quebec Sept 1911 on the Tunisian bound for Winnipeg, Manitoba to her husband, a labourer
Mrs F Brown 41
Myria (sic) Brown 24
Fanny Brown 22
Elsie Brown 21
Corothy Brown 16
Adoline (sic) Brown 13
Clare (sic) Brown 11
I think calling herself a 'widow' was just a way of looking respectable. Divorce was difficult, expensive and possibly messy in those days so they may simply of separated.
Andy
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Hi Andy,
So the story goes my gg grandfather James Brown left Canada to go back to Birmingham and told his family that he would be back in a few months and never came back to Canada :( Is there anyway to find out when he went back to Birmingham ??? I cant find those shipping records. I really need to find his middle name, all I can find is James Brown with no middle name.
Thanks for the reply :)
Adeline B
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I really need to find his middle name, all I can find is James Brown with no middle name.
What makes you think he had a middle name?
Have you traced him back before his marriage. I wonder if police records for his service prior to going to Canada are available.
Rosie
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Try the link in reply #7. ;D
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Sorry, Frogs, I don't think that's true?
My grandfather divorced in 1926, and I was able to get the records without problems!
Records from 1858-1937 are available through TNA.
Survival rate of the files is 100% for cases 1858-1927, 80% for 1928-1937, but less than 0.2% after 1937.
Search facilities here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/divorce.htm
I found that my wife's great granparents divorced in 1894 and the papers were definitely makred closed for 100 years
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I got my dads divorce papers from there dated 1920
Margp
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Hi Adeline
Did either party marry again? If not, then there may not have been a divorce. But if there was a divorce then which would be the applicable country? It does look as if they were last living together in Canada so I would have thought that if Fanny commenced proceedings then it would be in Canada.
Passenger lists for arrivals in the UK from Canada tend to be lacking in detail, you often don't get more than a name such as James Brown, J Brown or even just Mr Brown. age, which is not always accurate, and occupation.
Andy
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Are we distinguishing between obtaining a record that confirms that a couple were divorced and obtaining the papers that show the basis of that divorce? My original post referred to the papers associated with a divorce and my experience is that these were closed for a hundred years. It is however some years since I obtained details of a divorce and the situation may have changed.
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The Probate Registry, part of Her Majesty's Courts & Tribunals Service, has a Central Index of Decrees Absolute.
This can be searched using form D440.
The National Archives has the Divorce Case Files in J77.
It was TNA that I applied for the case files for my grandfather's divorce.
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I got my dads divorce papers from there dated 1920
Margp
I got about 15 pages on my dads divorce paper from NA,and very interesting reading too, and a lot of surprises, there was no Decree Nisi with these paper, so I requested a search from the government for this, so there was no 100 year law on either
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Thanks KGerrad
I could not recall the details of where the search for the decree was from
Marg
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I really need to find his middle name, all I can find is James Brown with no middle name.
What makes you think he had a middle name?
Have you traced him back before his marriage. I wonder if police records for his service prior to going to Canada are available.
Rosie
You may get information on his police career
http://www.westmidlandspolicemuseum.co.uk/information.htm
http://www.westmidlandspolicemuseum.co.uk/birminghamcitypolice.htm
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http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/
- Jas. Brown (b. Feb 1862) and Sydney Brown (b. May 1892) are lodgers in Winnipeg in the 1911 census. Years of immigration are listed differently so it's possible they arrived separately.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/divorce/index-e.html
- Canadian divorce index here (don't see them, though I'm not sure if this is everything or only divorces through some particular courts). At the time, divorce in the Western provinces was governed by English law, so the same rules would have applied (e.g. she would have had to prove adultery + desertion). "Widow" was much easier.
Re closed/open records: rules on which documents are publicly available have changed over the years (in some cases they're more like guidelines). You can tell by looking at the National Archives catalogue whether something is available or not because records which are "closed" will be marked as such:
This document is closed and cannot be viewed or re-produced as a digital or printed copy.
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Hi,
Not sure Jas.Brown is my guy ??? Is Jas short for James :-[ Not sure he had a middle name,but it would certainly help narrow done the search :)
I appreciate all the the replays from everyone and thank you for all the information given to help with my search.
Adeline B
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Is Jas short for James
Yes ;D ;D
I wonder what happened to Sydney ???
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Hi Rosie,
My great uncle Sydney fought in WW1&2, He passed away in the mid 1980s. None of Fanny's children had contact with their father James Brown.I guess if she's calling her self a widow then she did not file for divorce.I know she did not remarry,don't know what happened to James Brown ???
Adeline B :)
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Hi Adeline B
Do you have James death certificate, if so it may be worth getting someone to look at the electoral register for the address prior to his death.
At least the rest of the family kept together. :)
Rosie
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Adeline
Do you have Sidney Browns Attestation Papers ie War Records these can be obtained from
Library and Archives Canada, Ottawa.
There is a lot of information in these records that may help you, my cousin in Ottawa uses these a lot with his research, and it as helped with his missing links in his tree.
Canada Soldiers of the First World War 1914-1918
Sidney Brown
Birth 19 May 1892
Birmingham England
Mother Fannie Brown
Reg No 9749
Margp
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Hi Marg,
I have Sydney's attestation papers but there is no information that will help me on James Brown. Would love to get death certificate for James Brown,thought I would need his middle name so I can get correct date of Birth.I guess I should get his Birth certificate first. Do they send info via computer or would I have to wait to have one sent out? If I live in Canada and I need to contact bmd Birmingham how long would it take?
Thank you for the reply :D
Adeline B
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Hi Adeline
You can purchase certificates from either the local register office that covers the area he was born in or the General Register Office (GRO) If you order online from the GRO (for 9.25 GBP) it takes a couple of weeks to receive the certificate in Australia so I guess Canada would be similar. Local office is a bit more complicated, you would need to identify which one was applicable and then to check how you can purchase through them. Not all accept credit cards.
Before you try to purchase a birth certificate you need to work out when and where he was born, his marriage certificate should give you his fathers name which would be helpful.
Andy
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Hi Andy,
I have James Brown father, Henry James Brown.I have him on several census but there are a lot of James Brown from that area.I know my James Brown died on Jan 31,1955 would that information help me? I've tried looking for an obit, not sure when they started publishing in news papers out there as I can't seem to find one for him.
Thank you for the reply, I really do appreciate all the help :D
Adeline B
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I know my James Brown died on Jan 31,1955 would that information help me?
Our death certificates give very little information - Name, date of death, cause of death, address where death happened, name and address of informant.
The web site you need is http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Rosie
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Hi Adeline
I think that this may be his baptist record
James Brown
Baptised 9 March 1862 Hampton-in-Arden Warwick
Father Henry James Brown
Mother Clara Brown
To support this, brother Henry 22 March 1859 the same information as above
Source FamilySearch.org
This now narrows your search for his BC to the 1 quarter of 1862 in the Aston area of Warwickshire, I would contact Birmingham Registrar's Office who are extremely helpful, they may then check James Brown and confirm if his parents are Henry and Clara before you buy.
Margp
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Hi Adeline
This is the only BC that could be him
James Brown
Jan Qtr 1862
Reg Dist Aston
Warwickshire
Vol 6d
Page 151
And his DC
James Brown
Jan Qtr 1955
Year of birth abt 1863
Age 92
Reg Dist Sutton Coldfield Warwickshire
Vol 9c
Page 1325
Margp
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagename=SystemAdmin%2FCFPageLayout&cid=1223092615075&packedargs=website%3D4&pagename=BCC%2FCommon%2FWrapper%2FCFWrapper&rendermode=live
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Hi
James Brown
Jan Qtr 1862
Reg Dist Aston
Warwickshire
Vol 6d
Page 151
The page no should be 351 not 151, Ancestry has a clearer image.
There is also this registration which is a possibility as you had 42 days to register a birth
James Brown
June Qtr 1862
Reg Dist Aston
Vol 6d
Page 277
Andy
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Thanks Andy another OAP moment lol
Marg
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I have James Brown father, Henry James Brown.
Is this information obtained from James and Fanny's marriage certificate ? If so are you able to post the details from this certificate including witnesses
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
Excellent point. I did not receive this info off marriage certificate.Most of my info came from family and confirmed by cenus.I needed a little more info on my James Brown to get bmd certificates,which I think I might have now :D
Adeline B
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Hi
Thank you Marg and Andy for all the information and help. I'm going to contact the Birmingham registry this morning.I think this is my James Brown. Info for DC looks correct
Adeline B :)
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Good Luck
Marg
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Hi Adeline
its your English cousin :D. I have been reading back through this thread, and have put a few things together - see what you think ;D
reply #9 says the whole family immigrated in 1910
reply #8 says Fanny and the girls were in Kings Norton 1911(April), tho I cannot find them at the mo - will have another look soon.
reply #11 says Fanny and the girls arrived in Quebec en route for Winnipeg Sept 1911
reply #23 says Sid and Jim were lodging in Winnipeg in 1911
Fanny 'widow' and the girls were in Winnipeg in 1916
So.............. whole family go to Canada in 1910, Fanny and girls come back for part of 1911, go back , and Jim returns to Mere Green (UK) some time between 1911 and 1916. My Mum and Aunty were taken to visit him in the 1930's by Grandad.
I'll look for JBs entrance to England 1911-1916, and the girls in 1911 and we'll see if we can't crack this one! ::)
Helen
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Had a quick look and cannot find Fanny and the girls in Kings Norton (doesn't mean they're not there :-\)
There are 2 James Browns arriving at Liverpool, but cannot see more as I only have the basic ancestry. ::)
Helen
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Hi Helen,
Sorry I did not get back sooner, I just got off from work.I'm going to send away for James Brown police records.Hopefully they survived.I will keep you posted on that.
I thought there might be a possibility of James and Fanny either separating or divorcing.She must of been pretty upset with him to call herself a widow eh.
I'll keep you posted Adeline B :D
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Hi
More information. This seems to match the information on the Canadian 1911 census provided by jorose in an earlier post.
Sidney Brown, 18, arrived Quebec June 1910 on the Victorian bound for Winnipeg. Previous occupation, Engineer.
James Brown, 49, arrived Halifax NS March 1911 on the Victorian bound for Winnipeg. Retired Sgt of Police.
Also onboard was another Brown family heading for Winnipeg, are they related?
Herbert Brown 43 Clergyman
Charlotte Brown 27
Graham Brown infant
it looks like Sidney went to Canada first in 1910 then James in 1911 followed by Fanny and the girls a few months later. I suspect the year of arrival, 1910, in the 1916 census is a mistake.
Andy
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Had a quick look and cannot find Fanny and the girls in Kings Norton (doesn't mean they're not there :-\)
Information removed
Like Andycand I think the year of 1910 on the 1916 census was an error. ;)
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Thanks Rosie :D,
yes I was looking on Ancestry, as I cancelled my subs to the other site, when ancestry stated putting up the 1911 cencus ::). That must be them.
I like your senario Andy. I suppose they put 1910 as date of arrival for all of them as it was for Sid.
I don't think the Herbert Brown family were connected unless Adeline knows otherwise. There are several other Brown branches which disappeared, probably emigrated to somewhere ::).
Helen
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Hi Andy,
Thank you for the shipping records.The Brown Family travelling with James from my knowledge are not related,wonder if they were also from Birmingham. So wrong year on census eh ::)
Adeline B
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Hi Helen,
I'm confused now :-\Fanny travelled to Canada with the girls and went back to England with the girls and then back to Canada again with the girls all in 1911 ???I'm not so sure about that.
Adeline B :D
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Hi Helen,
I'm confused now :-\Fanny travelled to Canada with the girls and went back to England with the girls and then back to Canada again with the girls all in 1911 ???I'm not so sure about that.
Adeline B :D
Hi
I don't think Fanny and the girls went back to England at all. I think that on the 1916 census Fanny and the girls incorrectly stated that they arrived in Canada in 1910 when they actually arrived in September 1911.
Andy
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I just put that Adeline to try and fit in with the cencus which said they arrived in 1910, but now I agree with Andy - they were in Kings Norton in April (1911 cencus) and travelling in Sept, Sid and Jim having gone over before them. :D
Helen
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Hi Andy,
So Fanny and the girls came over to Canada in 1911 on the Tunisian bound for Winnipeg,husband labourer ??? Thank you for clearing that up for me ;)
Adeline B :D
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Hi Helen,
Still waking up ;D thought I missed something there ::) Wrong date on census got it now ;)
Adeline B
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Mid afternoon here - I've had time to get my brain in gear ;D.
Looks like Syndey went ahead - maybe he had been offered a job. Wonder why he went to Winnipeg in particular. Do any of your relatives know anything about that?
Helen
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Hi Helen,
I was told that James came to Canada to work for the North West Mounted Police,
after he was badly beaten,I hope his police records are able to help shed some light on this.I'll have to ask around on why Winnipeg. Sid and Fanny had land outside of Winnipeg near Eriksdale, Manitoba,where Sid built a log cabin for Fanny.
I'll Keep you posted ;D
Adeline B