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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: clx on Wednesday 04 July 12 23:44 BST (UK)
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I am searching for James Matthew Blunt born Indiana @ 1880. The only information I have is from his marriage certificate.
This states James Matthew Blunt was born @1880 in Indiana USA, father John Thomas Blunt born Wales and mother was May/Mary Cunningham (no origin). James states he has been in Australia for about 20 years. I have been unable to link a John Thomas Blunt with a May/Mary Cunningham anywhere. I have searched USA census for their names individually for 1880 as they may not have been married. James Matthew Blunt married Madolin Webber/Collins in 1917 in Newtown, NSW Sydney. They had one child, a son Leslie James Matthew Blunt in 6 April 1918 in Sydney and then both parents died in June 1919 of the Spanish Flu.
I have been helping my mother on her desperate search but have not been able to find any immigration or shipping information for either John or James. We were hoping to find more information on this prior to my grandfather Les' passing but unfortunately he died 2 weeks ago. We would like to have some answers as we wish to include his biological parents names on his headstone as they were buried in unmarked graves. We have the birth date for Les' mother but would like this for James as well. ???
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
PS I have also posted this on "Wales" lookup for John Thomas Blunt
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Link to Welsh thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,605178.0.html
I've found an outside possible but not with a Mary Cunningham :-\
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I am searching for James Matthew Blunt born Indiana @ 1880. The only information I have is from his marriage certificate.
This states James Matthew Blunt was born @1880 in Indiana USA, father John Thomas Blunt born Wales and mother was May/Mary Cunningham (no origin). James states he has been in Australia for about 20 years. I have been unable to link a John Thomas Blunt with a May/Mary Cunningham anywhere. I have searched USA census for their names individually for 1880 as they may not have been married. James Matthew Blunt married Madolin Webber/Collins in 1917 in Newtown, NSW Sydney. They had one child, a son Leslie James Matthew Blunt in 6 April 1918 in Sydney and then both parents died in June 1919 of the Spanish Flu.
I have been helping my mother on her desperate search but have not been able to find any immigration or shipping information for either John or James. We were hoping to find more information on this prior to my grandfather Les' passing but unfortunately he died 2 weeks ago. We would like to have some answers as we wish to include his biological parents names on his headstone as they were buried in unmarked graves. We have the birth date for Les' mother but would like this for James as well. ???
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
PS I have also posted this on "Wales" lookup for John Thomas Blunt
Hi there,
May I suggest you post a request on the Australian Board for information about your James Matthew BLUNT. There are lots of RChatters there who could well help.
In the meantime, I notice you mention that you have the NSW BDM marriage cert. I am not sure though that a NSW mc would show he had been in NSW for twenty years. What document gives you that information please? I will look through my NSW offline resources for you to see if I can help further.
Info on NSW BDM marriage certs for 1917 should give you:
Surname and given names of the groom, his age at marriage, his place of birth, his occupation and status (bachelor, divorcee/petitioner or respondant, widower)
Surname and given names of the groom's father, his occupation and if known to be deceased, then that can sometimes be noted at that response
Surname and given names of the groom's mother, and ANY former names and if known to be deceased
The usual address for the groom
Surname and given names of the bride, her age at marriage, her place of birth, her occupation and status (spinster, divorcee/petitioner or respondant, widow)
And similar information re her parents, as well as her usual address
The date and location of the marriage ceremony, the officiating person conducting the ceremony and the rites used (usually the church and denomination, but civil registrars performed marriages).
The names of the witnesses (minimum of two officiating witnesses).
Cheers, JM
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There is a family tree showing a John Thomas Blunt married to Catherine Patton - 31 Dec 1878 Vermillion. Indiana. Shows 3 children James Matthew Blunt 1878 - 1919
John F 1881 and Arthur 1887 - 1970.
Does list a May Cunningham but no further details ???
Sandra
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Hi Sandra :)
see my link:
Link to Welsh thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,605178.0.html
I've found an outside possible but not with a Mary Cunningham :-\
Family in Wabash until 1900 so far. John dies 1908, Wabash, James to Australia circa 1914.
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James Blunt and Dora Blunt were both interred 14 June 1919 Rookwood Cemetery, Anglican Section, Grave No. 503, Area AN, Section H.
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/contact/contacts/anglican-%26-general-cemetery-trusts/
Have you considered contacting the trust re checking their Burial Register for further information? I note the funeral directors were Wood, Coffill & Co. I think that firm could still exist. http://www.funeralshq.com.au/business-profile/33450-wood-coffill-funerals.htm
Here are 2 newspaper cuttings: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15856964 SMH 14 June 1919.
I have not YET found James arrival to NSW. I do know several CUNNINGHAM families, and the surname can be mismashed : CYNNINGHAME is one variation that is often overlooked.
Cheers, JM
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Some of the trees have him arriving Albany, NSW in 1914
Born April 1879, Indiana on the 1900 US census - see links to other thread, already posted
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Albany is not in NSW, it is several thousand miles away in Western Australia. It was the usual first port of call for ships coming across the Indian Ocean ;D ;D
Not to worry, I will keep looking ;D
Free to search digitised newspapers link http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Free to search mariners link http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/
Cheers, JM
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When you contact Rookwood Anglican, ask them if you are permitted to place markers on the unmarked graves.
Cheers, JM
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I was repeating what some of the trees said ;D
Some of the trees have him arriving Albany, NSW in 1914
The OP is looking for a birth date in Indiana to put on the son's headstone - I have it as April 1879 from the 1900 census.
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These are the only online birth records for Indiana at the moment - 1773 - 1933 (of course not every birth will be covered)
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/show#uri=http://familysearch.org/searchapi/search/collection/1674814
Birth records in the ISDH Vital Records office begin with October 1907. Prior to October 1907, records of birth are filed only with the local health department in the county where the birth actually occurred.
Information given on census is only as good as the informants information and should not be taken as "gospel"
very often they can be wrong !!
Sandra
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I did a quick check on Indiana birth records on Ancestry but they only start 1880 - and no James so the 1879 date looks the most likely so far - it ties in with the census ages.
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15894128 SMH 25 June 1920 In Memoriam
In loving memory of our dear father and mother, James and Dora Blunt, who departed this life June 13, 1919.
Gone, but not forgotten. Peace, perfect peace.
Inserted by their loving children, Marie, Jack, Eddie and Edie Collins, and their little baby, Leslie Blunt; also Charles and Elizabeth Willcox.
I am thinking that Rookwood would permit markers on the unmarked double grave.
Cheers, JM.
(Yes, and I presumed you were only repeating the submitted info re Albany ;D )
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majm
There's something wrong somewhere - no Dora and only one son, Les, in the first post:
James Matthew Blunt married Madolin Webber/Collins in 1917 in Newtown, NSW Sydney. They had one child, a son Leslie James Matthew Blunt in 6 April 1918 in Sydney and then both parents died in June 1919 of the Spanish Flu.
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I think Dora was previously married. :) So nothing wrong. :)
NSW dcs can be quite informative, however, the online index seems to indicate that the informant did not know James parents given names.
James dc is ref #10345, Dora’s is #7804.
There is a cheaper and quicker alternative to the ‘real deal’ certificates. NSW BDM has official transcription agents. Here is the link for these from NSW BDM website. I know that each of these three organisations are diligent, and each offers excellent service.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
As it seems that James may have arrived after the six British Colonies were federated into one British Colony in 1901, it is likely his arrival documentation would show he was an adult. It is unlikely that he needed to nominate his parents on any arrival documentation. I have not found him on my offline NSW 1913 Electoral Rolls, however you needed to be not just aged over 21, but also a British Subject (either by birth or naturalisation).
Cheers, JM
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The OP has Les's mother as Madolin Webber/Collins not Dora. Can you check up on a possible marriage for James Matthew Blunt to Madolin Webber/Collins or does Madolin = Dora ::)
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Madolin was Madolin Dora Collins (nee Webber) when she married James Blunt.
John Gerard Collins - Birth 22 November 1859 in Ryde, New South Wales, Australia
and died 25 April 1913 in Ryde, New South Wales
Sandra
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Good find, Sandra :)
I assume that she was Webber before she married John Collins. - just seen your addition of the Webber :D
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James Blunt is still in Wabash in 1910 with mother and brothers John and Arthur. So far, no good match on the 1920 so the James b. April 1879 to John and Catherine (on censuses previously listed on other thread) looks a good possible.
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And if 1879 is 'wrong', it would seem unlikely to be 1880, as NSW BDM online index has 'aged 39 years' and the newspaper cuttings confirm June 1919 as the sad deaths for the couple. I would expect family were taking care of all the children. :(
I wonder if our OP has researched Dora's older children to see if by chance there's a 'birthday' book with an entry for James Matthew BLUNT in it :) These books were very popular in NSW from circa 1875 until very recent times :)
Cheers, JM
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It's the only James on the US censuses b. around the right time in Indiana and with a father John born Wales. ;D
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This could be what some of the family tree entries have picked up on - Western Australia Passengers & Crew List shows a Mr James Blunt
Nationality - British - Arriving May 1914 - Albany
Country and state where passengers embarked was London ???
Sandra
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I was repeating what some of the trees said ;D
Some of the trees have him arriving Albany, NSW in 1914
The OP is looking for a birth date in Indiana to put on the son's headstone - I have it as April 1879 from the 1900 census.
There is a WW2 draft for a James Blunt born 24 April 1879 Covington. Indiana ??? (Person who will always know him is John Blunt - Covington - Indiana.)
The same birth date comes up on a WW1 Draft for a James Blunt - Danville. Vermilion. Illinois when he was living in a Hotel in Steubenville. Illinois (with a brother John in Covington. Indiana)
The WW1 Draft for John Blunt 16 Feb 1881 Indiana, residing Covington. Fountain names his brother Arthur as the person who will always know him.
The WW2 Draft for John Blunt 16 Feb 1881 Indiana also mention his brother Arthur.
The WW1 Draft for Arthur 26 March 1887 Indiana refers to his wife as next of kin.
The WW2 Draft for Arthur 26 March 1887 Indiana refers to Maggie Blunt (his wife)
There was a James Blunt born 1880 Indiana in Danville Ward 4, Vermilion, Illinois on the 1910 census but with parents born Pennsylvania, he looks like the guy on the WW1 draft ???
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MKF9-M25
Sandra
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Hi everyone,
what a wonderful group you all are! I can't thank you enough for your interest in this. I thought, with my love of a challenge and research I could help my mother in a short time but have quickly realised how complex this all is.
I think I have probably confused thing a little as I mixed up facts from the death certificate, as was noted by majm. I have created three trees in ancestry.com using the different leads I have found for James Matthew Blunt as I was confusing myself!
I have been investigating the Webber/Collins tree which has had quite a lot of research work completed by my mothers cousin.
I have found it so hard to get clear information I have been looking at connections that may have brought James to Australia. This has been a complicated method as I keep going off on tangents everywhere.
To make things clearer I have just transcribed the Marriage Certificate and Death Certificate (although I think it wasn't necessary!!) and I have attached them, but I can see that this may not be necessary either as you all seem to have great skills in finding the source of things.
Thanks :-*
Cheryl
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Fingers cossed the draft is WWI and NOT WWII for James born 24 April 1879...
Cheers JM PS WHat date for that draft please as it could explain why he came to NSW where all enlistments were volunteeers ... NO Conscription.
I was repeating what some of the trees said ;D
Some of the trees have him arriving Albany, NSW in 1914
The OP is looking for a birth date in Indiana to put on the son's headstone - I have it as April 1879 from the 1900 census.
There is a WW2 draft for a James Blunt born 24 April 1879 Covington. Indiana ??? (Person who will always know him is John Blunt - Covington - Indiana.)
The same birth date comes up on a WW1 Draft for a James Blunt when he was living in a Hotel in Steubenville. Illinois (with a brother John in Covington. Indiana)
The WW1 Draft for John Blunt 16 Feb 1881 Indiana, residing Covington. Fountain names his brother Arthur as the person who will always know him.
The WW2 Draft for John Blunt 16 Feb 1881 Indiana also mention his brother Arthur.
The WW1 Draft for Arthur 26 March 1887 Indiana refers to his wife as next of kin.
The WW2 Draft for Arthur 26 March 1887 Indiana refers to Maggie Blunt (his wife)
There was a James Blunt born 1880 Indiana in Danville Ward 4, Vermilion, Illinois on the 1910 census but with parents born Pennsylvania, he could be a possible for the WW1 and " Drafts ???
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MKF9-M25
Sandra
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I was repeating what some of the trees said ;D
Some of the trees have him arriving Albany, NSW in 1914
The OP is looking for a birth date in Indiana to put on the son's headstone - I have it as April 1879 from the 1900 census.
There is a WW2 draft for a James Blunt born 24 April 1879 Covington. Indiana ??? (Person who will always know him is John Blunt - Covington - Indiana.)
The same birth date comes up on a WW1 Draft for a James Blunt when he was living in a Hotel in Steubenville. Illinois (with a brother John in Covington. Indiana)
The WW1 Draft for John Blunt 16 Feb 1881 Indiana, residing Covington. Fountain names his brother Arthur as the person who will always know him.
The WW2 Draft for John Blunt 16 Feb 1881 Indiana also mention his brother Arthur.
The WW1 Draft for Arthur 26 March 1887 Indiana refers to his wife as next of kin.
The WW2 Draft for Arthur 26 March 1887 Indiana refers to Maggie Blunt (his wife)
Sandra
Hi Sandra,
these Draft cards are where I began to doubt this was the right James.
The description on WW1 Draft card as medium height and build, b/gray(?) eyed, red hair is the same for James and his two brothers John and Arthur's cards. My grandfather was tall, slim, olive skin (remarkably clear and smooth at 94), brown eyed and brown hair.
My only thought was that maybe James' move to Australia was not "official" hence the WW1 and WW2 Drafts. Could it have been signed by one of his brothers? I don't know how possible that would have been to do? I have one photo of Dora and have met two sons of his step brother and there is some similarity with my grandfather so I am thinking he either took after his mother Dora in all these features or James looked different to his brothers?. I am going to try to gather more images that may assist this line of thought.
Another big question was the name of James mother on his marriage certificate? Unless this was also to hide the truth. Also the statement on his death certificate that he had lived in Australia about 20 years was presumably given by someone that knew him M Collins James' step daughter but hard to know if this was fact also. C Willcox and Elizabeth Willcox (witnesses on the marriage certificate later changed James son Les' name to Leslie Charles Saunders Willcox and either adopted or fostered him (we are still researching this). Seemingly a very strange thing to do but this was C Willcox's name and he had no children. Charles and Elizabeth Willcox raised all the children left orphaned by Dora and James deaths.
I found the missing family 1900 US Census recorded as Blount (I created another tree "Blount family" on ancestry to store this information).
I have been searching "Blunt" living in Sydney for the 20 years prior to James death to see if I can connect something and possibly immigration information.
??? But persistent!
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As he died 1919 there cannot be a WWII draft for him.
The grieving informant on his dc had lost both her parents and her step father and may well have been ill herself with the Spanish flu or at least some of her younger siblings may have been ill with it. She may have said 20 years OR 20 months or been confused. Her efforts would be focused on her grief and not on answering questions.
I have many NSW off line resources that are not found at Ancestery including NSW Electoral rolls 1903 and 1913. I will look tomorrow as it is 10:45 pm here.
Cheers JM NSW Centric.
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The WW1 Draft date was for James Blunt born 24 th April 1879 was September 11 th 1918.
There was a James Blunt born 1880 Indiana in Danville Ward 4, Vermilion, Illinois on the 1910 census but with parents born Pennsylvania, he looks like the guy on the WW1 draft.
So perhaps there was more than 1 James Blunt born in Indiana around that time ???
Sandra
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Apart from John Blunt living with Arthur Blunt on the 1920 census, there was another John Blunt born 1880 Indiana with a father born in Wales and a mother in Indiana. John was living in Fulton, Fountain, Indiana in 1920
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MF7S-CTF
Sandra
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I remember looking at the Fulton John Blunt from the 1920's census a few times. I don't think I could find birth info or find him to see if he had a brother James Blunt.
It would be great if the James on the draft card was a different James. I have just rechecked this. Both John and Arthur use each other as contacts which would suggest James was no longer in USA. I must be mad - I thought it said they all had blue eyes! but it does say John and Arthur had brown eyes although red hair. But I do know James wife Dora had dark hair. I know this seems a silly way to compare information but I am thinking in terms of genetics and our family seem to all look strongly related!. Now I believe that the WW1 Draft card is another James Blunt.
I will have to download each profile again and more carefully cross reference this time.
Then I have to obtain accurate birth details although I don't know how to obtain this from Indiana?
Thank you for your thorough suggestions, it is greatly appreicated.
Cheryl
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Then I have to obtain accurate birth details although I don't know how to obtain this from Indiana?
Cheryl
Birth records in the ISDH Vital Records office begin with October 1907. Prior to October 1907, records of birth are filed only with the local health department in the county where the birth actually occurred. You would need to contact the Wabash County Clerk or Registrar Recorder’s office if you believe that was the family on the 1880 census.
http://www.in.gov/isdh/20444.htm
Sandra
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Thanks again Sandra, I will cross check these census records and if all looks possible I will contact ISDH vital records - I appreciate your information.
(Your link : https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MF7S-CTF keeps coming up with "encountered an internal error" message so I am unable to view it.)
US Census question
How were the US census records obtained?
Did someone go door to door and write all the records or were they gathered and collated by someone.
I have noticed some with many erased or cross out/changed records suggesting errors were likely.
I would be interested to know the procedure.
Shipping Routes
If James was to travel from Indiana to Sydney, what is the most likely route eg ports - is it possible to obtain shipping route and ship information from say 1895- 1917?
From what I have found in searches it seems like the route may have traveled across the Indian Ocean and arriving in Australia in Albany Western Australia.
It was suggested I try the Australian Forum Board and this may be a common question so I will find that post.
If I could find this it would clarify his arrival in Australia.
Australian Marriage Certificate
I still have the issue of a different name on his marriage certificate for his mother.
A different father I could understand a bit easier.
I have noted that the name Dora used for her mother was her nickname "Polly", her registered birth name was Mary Ann Pitts (married Webber). Dora has used Polly Marian Pitts.
Who would have written the the Marriage certificate details - I am wondering if James mother's name has been incorrectly entered - did this happen?
I am sorry for all the questions. I am very new to this, as you can see but I am finding it fascinating and a great learning curve!
much appreciated
Cheryl :)
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Hi there,
In my view, NEVER apologise for asking "too many questions". ;D provided you are asking any question BECAUSE you want to learn the answer, then ASK the question ;D . Of course, some answers take a tad longer than others, and some questions will remain unanswered for very long long times. Look at how long it is taking for the Higgs Boson answers to start to surface ;D
Meanwhile, back at the bestest family history forum around :) I haven't found the answer yet ::) BUT
Hi there,
NSW Electoral Roll 1913 RYDE, polling at North Ryde.
COLLINS, Dora, at Ben Lemond, Lane Cove Road, North Ryde, domestic duties
COLLINS, John, same address, orchardist.
I cannot find James BLUNT on these rolls.
Cheers, JM
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Shipping Routes
From circa 1900
From West Coast of the STATES ..... across the Pacific to the East Coast of Australia via "South Sea Islands" including Hawaii. This was a standard mail route, various shipping lines, but the mail was by contract with (from memory) the Sonoma being one of the ships. I think the Sonoma was the first Australian mail ship into San Fran after the earthquake and resultant fire. I think the Sonoma crew were very actively involved in fire fighting on the Wharves.
From the East Coast of the STATES, down to Panama Canal, then through the Canal and across the Pacific to the East Coast. (You will need to confirm exactly when Panama Canal opened, I think it was in the 1910s ).
From the East Coast of the States, .... take train across to San Fran, then ship to East Coast of Australia (Mail runs advertised in San Fran newspapers, less than 3 weeks from Sydney via Auckland, to Hawaii, to San Fran). There was still some shipping going down the east coast of South America and then around there and then across the southern Pacific ocean.
From Europe, ships could go via Suez Canal or via West Coast of Africa down to Cape Town, then across to ALBANY and/or Fremantle in Western Australia, then on to Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney etc. OR if Via Suez, sometimes they then hugged the sub continent, and came down through Singapore, Torres Strait, down between the East Coast and the Great Barrier Reef, calling at all the ports, into Brisbane, then down the rest of the east coast of Australia.
Marriage Certificate.
You have a New South Wales marriage certificate. There's actually no such thing as an Australian Marriage Certificate in that 'collective' sense. Each of the six colonies that were federated into one colony in 1901 remain responsible for their own internal affairs, and of course BDM registers are state based. The information on the certificate re the parents is recorded by the clergy. Perhaps you could consider approaching the Church of England Archives? St Stephens is part of the Sydney Diocese. Here is a link that may help. http://www.ststephens.org.au/ If you were to order that same NSW BDM document today you would receive a completely different document, same information but set out differently.
Cheers, JM (I am waiting for the answer to your question re Census collections in the USA cause I too want to know the answer ;D ;D ;D )
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Perhaps this will help
1880 Census: Instructions to Enumerators includes Duties Of Enumerators
http://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1880.shtml
Perhaps it isn't the wrong name on the marriage certificate and we just haven't found the family he belonged to ???
Sandra
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James Blunt and Dora Blunt were both interred 14 June 1919 Rookwood Cemetery, Anglican Section, Grave No. 503, Area AN, Section H.
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/contact/contacts/anglican-%26-general-cemetery-trusts/
Have you considered contacting the trust re checking their Burial Register for further information? I note the funeral directors were Wood, Coffill & Co. I think that firm could still exist. http://www.funeralshq.com.au/business-profile/33450-wood-coffill-funerals.htm
Here are 2 newspaper cuttings: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15856964 SMH 14 June 1919.
I have not YET found James arrival to NSW. I do know several CUNNINGHAM families, and the surname can be mismashed : CYNNINGHAME is one variation that is often overlooked.
Cheers, JM
Thank you very much for this information. I have printed out a Rookwood Anglican Section map for my mother and will visit Rookwood to try and identify this grave.
There are many variations of Cunningham aren't there and it is difficult to even be sure this is the name from the MC as the C seems to be missing. It could even be Mary not May.
Thanks
Cheryl
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Perhaps this will help
1880 Census: Instructions to Enumerators includes Duties Of Enumerators
http://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1880.shtml
Perhaps it isn't the wrong name on the marriage certificate and we just haven't found the family he belonged to ???
Sandra
Thank you Sandra, this was very interesting to read. I noted "Seafaring men are to be reported at their land homes, no matter how long they may have been absent, if they are supposed to be still alive." I doubt he would have been a sailor from Indiana. James was recorded as being a boilermaker in Australia. But it is an aspect of the US census worth remembering when men seem to vanish.
Cheryl
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Hi there,
May I suggest you contact St Stephens C of E and explain that the copy of the NSW BDM registration for the marriage is written in longhand AND seems to be in the clergyman's hand only, and ask if their archivist would check further to see if the original registers are available. It could be that one or both registers are already archived, but I know that the bride and the groom's signatures and those of the witnesses OUGHT to be available. Once you have James signature from the 1917 document then you have something to compare to the draft cards and/or to any other document with his signature. That should help eliminate or confirm some of the sightings. St Stephens may have forwarded their registers to their archivists, BUT there were usually TWO registers used for C of E marriages. It depends on which one the clergyman referred to when he was forwarding information to NSW BDM re the registration of the marriage. One of the registers definitely will have the original signatures of the bride, the groom, and each of the two witnesses. The registers are not ever meant to be deliberately destroyed.
Alternatively, you may need so spend some pennies and actually order the 'real deal' certificate from NSWBDM, as the current way of presenting the information is different from the 1979 issued cert you have displayed here. It could well be that the NSW BDM's registration is incomplete, or is only in the longhand from the clergy. But I have (today) checked and compared several mcs that I originally obtained back in the late 1970s era. I compared them with those certs that family members (not just me, but rellies of mine) have recently obtained (for the same people). And, where back in the 1960s I was able to gain access to church registers to view the actual signatures, yet in the 1970s and 1980s NSW BDM were not including those signatures in their certs, BUT NSW BDM seem to now be including the signatures ;D
But in suggesting you spend pennies on replacing the cert with a current version, it could well be that NSW BDM do not have a version with the actual signatures of the bride, groom, witnesses. :'(
Hope I am not confusing you, if so, please excuse my poor wordsmith skills.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
May I suggest you contact St Stephens C of E and explain that the copy of the NSW BDM registration for the marriage is written in longhand AND seems to be in the clergyman's hand only, and ask if their archivist would check further to see if the original registers are available. It could be that one or both registers are already archived, but I know that the bride and the groom's signatures and those of the witnesses OUGHT to be available. Once you have James signature from the 1917 document then you have something to compare to the draft cards and/or to any other document with his signature. That should help eliminate or confirm some of the sightings. St Stephens may have forwarded their registers to their archivists, BUT there were usually TWO registers used for C of E marriages. It depends on which one the clergyman referred to when he was forwarding information to NSW BDM re the registration of the marriage. One of the registers definitely will have the original signatures of the bride, the groom, and each of the two witnesses. The registers are not ever meant to be deliberately destroyed.
Alternatively, you may need so spend some pennies and actually order the 'real deal' certificate from NSWBDM, as the current way of presenting the information is different from the 1979 issued cert you have displayed here. It could well be that the NSW BDM's registration is incomplete, or is only in the longhand from the clergy. But I have (today) checked and compared several mcs that I originally obtained back in the late 1970s era. I compared them with those certs that family members (not just me, but rellies of mine) have recently obtained (for the same people). And, where back in the 1960s I was able to gain access to church registers to view the actual signatures, yet in the 1970s and 1980s NSW BDM were not including those signatures in their certs, BUT NSW BDM seem to now be including the signatures ;D
But in suggesting you spend pennies on replacing the cert with a current version, it could well be that NSW BDM do not have a version with the actual signatures of the bride, groom, witnesses. :'(
Hope I am not confusing you, if so, please excuse my poor wordsmith skills.
Cheers, JM
Hi JM
yes - I commented to my mother when she showed me the MC that it was not signed by the bride and groom and the witnesses signatures were written in the same hand as the person who completed this form. Now there is an Officiating Minister H Smirnoff Begbie, A District Registrar E Rossiter who also initialed the amendment to James mothers name and then John Brettell Holliday certified the copy. I am unsure who would have been the person responsible for writing the record I have. I will follow your suggestion and contact St Stephens C of E and see what they can assist with. Perhaps the original will reveal a bit more information. The signatures will definitely be useful as I have examined the ones on the Draft cards when considering if it may have been forged by a brother.
I really appreciate your sensitive words when noting the circumstances of my great grandparents death - it would have been an incredible tragic time.
Kind regards
Cheryl
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Hi all
well over the last year or so I have continued my search and after creating a family tree of nearly 1500 people hoping to find a link or clue to someone else connected within my family, I still have not been able to find details for James Matthew Blunt.
We attempted to obtain my grandfathers original birth certificate but due to his adoption we can not obtain this for another 6 years (100 years after his birth). The executor of the will has to apply to DOCS and he is not willing to proceed with this. The will is still being processed. My grandfathers headstone should be installed within the next month and will include the names of his birth and adoptive parents. This has also been a drawn out process.
We have concluded that we were misguided in thinking his father was from Wales. We actually cannot be certain of where his father or mother came from. So the search for a Welsh John Thomas Blunt has been ceased although we are still open to all possibilities.
I am certain that the James Blunt from Wabash Indiana who had the draft cards is not the correct one. I was unable to obtain the original mc from St Stephens but at this stage do not need to compare the draft card signatures as I have ruled this one out. So the Blunt/Patton Family Tree I created is now closed.
I did find another James Blunt on the US census who was visiting a cousin and I created another family tree Burnett/Blunt Family Tree around this family but it ended up being the same one from Wabash as the census for each location had been taken three days apart. At least I was able to rule out that one too.
I found a family that matches in England with father John Thomas Blunt, mother Mary A and a son James born in 1880 in Salford Lancashire. I think the mothers maiden name could have been Atherton from other family trees. I found a James Blunt marrying in 1903 in Salford Lancashire. I found a born abt 1879 James who left Liverpool to Quebec to work in Toronto - July 1910 aboard the Empress of Britain. His occupation was brick setting. I have not been able to see a journey from here to Australia. Also nowhere does this James Blunt include the middle name of Matthew.
I have greatly researched Madolin's -(Dora) family who unfortunately fell apart following her father leaving an remarrying and moving back to England. Her mother vanished at this point and the daughters ended up in care. Little is known of her until she marries Gerard Collins. I have researched the Collins family also. I have also researched the families of both witnesses on the marriage certificate, the Ashtons and the Willcox's. All this research has not led to any obvious links with James Matthew Blunt prior to his marriage to Madolin.
We have researched many Blunts living in Australia during this time without success.
I have also created a database of J Blunts who traveled to all ports in Australia from 1880 to 1916 but without knowing much more they are all hypothetical. I can't be sure if he was here for 20 years before his death as the informant stated. I still haven't found any electoral roll, Sands Directory or naturalisation records for him.
What I have found is interesting is the fact that James included his middle name and also detailed names of his parents. This would suggest to me he wasn't attempting to hide the truth. He could have quite easily omitted his parents names and other details from the marriage certificate. I have also noted that the newspaper death notices do not mention any parents or family so I am assuming he was in Australia on his own at least by the time Madolin knew him.
I have visited the house in Petersham, now Dulwich Hill, where James lived and finally passed away to try and gain an insight into his life. It helped to make this invisible man seem a little more real.
So we continue our research hoping that new information may appear over time.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Cheryl
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2013-2017 UPDATE
his is proving a real challenge!
So my research still continues with only teeny clues and clarifications since 2013. :'(
I now have a copy of James & Dora's original marriage certificate as the Sydney Anglican Church has digitised their records, very fortunate for me as these records were archived and not easy to obtain. It clearly states James parents as John Thomas Blunt and Mary Cunningham. I was uncertain from the BDM record if his mother was May or Mary so it is good to have a teeny new clarification. I also now have an original signature for James Matthew Blunt.
I have also obtained the adoption rights for my grandfather and now have his original birth certificate. Unfortunately although it states his parents as being James and Dora the only different information is a James age is stated as 34. It was stated as 36 the year earlier in his MC, the same as Dora. The BC states 36 for Dora. does not have any new information. It also has a name change of my grandfather as he was adopted. But this change is noted on the BC.
At least it shows some consistency between the three records I have, but suggests I need to keep a time frame for birth from 1879 to 1884 for James
I know for certain that the James Blunt from Wabash Indiana, who seemed to be the only possibility, died in 1949 and was buried in Hicks Cemetery Perrysville, Vermillion County, Indiana, United States of America and is buried there alongside his parents and brother John.
I have researched many Blunts living in Australia without success.
My database of J Blunts who traveled to all ports in Australia from 1880 to 1916 is still hypothetical without any real clues. I can't be sure if he was here for 20 years before his death as the informant stated on his DC. I still haven't found any electoral roll, Sands Directory or naturalisation records for him.
So we continue our research hoping that new information may appear over time, which it has but I really do not know where else to look.
Any other suggestions would of course be greatly appreciated.