RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: RichardFunk on Tuesday 17 July 12 17:44 BST (UK)
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Welcome to the thread,
I am a member of the Anglo-German Family History Society (AGFHS), and it was recently pointed out to me that we don't have a specific forum for people with German ancestors located in the North of England (Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Cumbria, Northumberland, Durham, etc). So I have decided to start a thread to solve that problem for members and non-members alike. Please tell everyone about your German ancestors 'up north': what did they did for a living, where did they live, where did they come from and why did they come?
Hopefully we can all help each other, and maybe we'll discover some connections between our ancestors.
Regards,
Richard
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Richard, Surprised that you have not had one reply for your post, unless it has not been spotted as yet. I cannot help re any German ancestors in our family, as far as I am aware. But if you see from my 'nom de plume' you will gather where I am from. In the town there was a pork butcher's business and they went by the name of Shy. From what I gathered/learned many years ago, if it is correct, the family was of German origin, and they changed their name to 'Shy' at the time of WWI. If any other similar names details come to mind I will let you know.
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We have several topics on RootsChat about german pork butchers. They are nearly all on the Europe board, as the posters were more interested in finding out about where they came from.
I've collected some of the topics here:
Topic: RootsChat Topics: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509347.0.html
Richard, some of them settled in the North of England, so have a look through them, you might find some very interesting for you.
Here are some of the family names:
Bauer / Bower; Beyer; Brand; Brueck
Cutts / Curtis / Katz (?)
Diez; Dreher
Ebert
Funk
Green / Grün
Haffner; Heinzmann; Heise; Hertrich;
Köberer; Kneller; Kramer / Krämer; Kress; Küstner
Meenz / Münz; Most
Pfisterer
Roger; Rothermel
Schonhut; Schwab; Stier
Volland
Wagner; Wall / Wahl; Wittman; Wolf; Wolpert
regards,
Bob
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A first cousin five times removed of mine married a woman called Anna Rauer, whose father George was a German who moved to Liverpool in the second half of the 19th century.
Stephen :)
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My grandmother was Margarete Karoline Vogel born 1881 in Hohebach, Baden Wurttemberg.
She followed 2 sisters & a brother to Yorkshire in 1896, her other 2 sisters went to Hebburn, South Shields and 2 brothers remained in Hohebach. (I am still in contact with the descendents of one of them but they have no knowledge of family history).
The girls were cooks or domestics in the UK prior to marriage. Grandma and one sister married Yorkshire farmers (my grandfather was a farmer & a butcher). Two sisters married German pork butchers in the UK, the fourth married an (English) Cawker in a ship building yard in South Shields.
Her brother Karl Konrad was a Pork Butcher in Bradford he married locally.
The German pork butchers were John Falck (also of Hohebach) and Wilhelm Hasenmayer (originally from Schwabisch Hall).
Regards
Helga
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Hohebach is in Baden-Würtemberg. It's worth comparing with the pork butcher topics I quoted before, as most of them seem to have come from Baden-Württemberg too.
e.g.
Hohenlohe
Kirchheim /Teck in Wurttemberg
Kocherstetten, Kuenzelsau, Wuerttemberg <== sehr viele !!!
Morsbach
Niedernhall
Welzheim
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Glad to see we've got some posts so quickly. All my lot of German ancestors were pork butchers from the Hohenlohe region in Wuerttemberg, which seems to be, as Berlin-Bob has pointed out, the origin place for most German pork butchers in Britain.
I've started recording German pork butchers as I find them and adding them to a list I'm building up. I've heard the name Vogel before, as well as Falck and it's great that you have detail of where they came from, that's the hardest part to find out, so thanks Helga. There is already a very good thread devoted to pork butchers so I'll try not to go on about them here too much. Helga, do you know exactly where these pork butchers had their shops?
Also thanks to pityackafromblyth for the tip off about the Shy family, I'll look into that in more detail.
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I've started recording German pork butchers as I find them and adding them to a list I'm building up.
And if you then put them on the web, then that could be the start of a "German Pork Butchers" site,
similar to the "German Sugar Bakers" site ;D
http://www.mawer.clara.net/intro.html
regards,
Bob
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In 1911 Karl Konrad Vogel lived & worked at 115 High Street, Great Horton.
Wilhelm Hasenmayer was living & working in Carr St, Hebburn in 1901 (he died in 1903).
John Falck was living & working in Huddersfield from 1871 to 1891, sometime around 1900 he returned to Hohebach with his wife (my great aunt).
My grandmother worked for August Breuninger a German Pork butcher, prior to her marriage. He lived & worked in Gaythorne St West Bowling. The Breuninger family were also from the Hohebach area
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I'm another Anglo-German FHS member. Is there anyone out there who has any Ulrichs in their family tree?
My gt-gt-grandfather, Jacob Ulrich, born c1844 in Germany, married a Catharina Weiss in 1870, at Grossenlinden, Hesse-Darmstadt. His parents were Philipp Ulrich and Elisabetha Koch. Jacob and Catharina came to South Yorkshire in the early 1870s, and Jacob remained in the UK until 1916 when he was sent back to Germany.
I haven't been able to find a baptism for him, or a marriage for his parents, amongst the German records on FamilySearch, and wondered if anyone has found other mention of his parents or possible siblings for him. He did give his place of birth as Frankfurt in some census records.
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Glad to see we've got some posts so quickly. All my lot of German ancestors were pork butchers from the Hohenlohe region in Wuerttemberg, which seems to be, as Berlin-Bob has pointed out, the origin place for most German pork butchers in Britain.
I've started recording German pork butchers as I find them and adding them to a list I'm building up. I've heard the name Vogel before, as well as Falck and it's great that you have detail of where they came from, that's the hardest part to find out, so thanks Helga. There is already a very good thread devoted to pork butchers so I'll try not to go on about them here too much. Helga, do you know exactly where these pork butchers had their shops?
Also thanks to pityackafromblyth for the tip off about the Shy family, I'll look into that in more detail.
Richard, like the idea of recording a list of German Pork Butchers, I'll pm you with details of Christian Frederick Wall, my wifes Great Grandfather, I'm sure you'll find more names on the 'German Pork Butchers in Britain' site that a few of us have contributed to, it's had 38566 hits and 393 replies.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,408853.390.html
I note you are a member of the AGFHS. Do they hold any records of civilian internees from WW1, as I have the camp(s) and serial number for CF Wall from the Red Cross.
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I have an Alexander Thiel who was born in Germany and settled in South Shields, he was a ships carpenter and married a local girl, later becoming a shipwright. They changed their name to "Shiel" or "Shiells" around WW1, presumably to avoid any trouble. I cannot find anything pre UK.
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I'll add this link to another butcher in Durham
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430883.0.html
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I have connections with the Dreher family who first appear in Derby c1835 with a marriage to Elizabeth Wathall. John Frederick Dreher (c1816-1853) was a pork butcher and all I know about his origin is that he came from "foreign parts" possibly Germany or Austria. My branch of the Dreher family moved to Salford/Manchester c1880.
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My German ancestors are the Albach family from Burkhardsfelden, Giessen, Hessen, Germany. They came to England in 1853 via Holland and most of them lived in the Grimsby area. The father was a labourer or Grocer. There's a passport in the possession of the family and there are copies around. No particular reason given for them leaving Germany. There's quite a few descendents researching this line. Here are details of this family:-
Johann Peter Albach 1815-1894
Katherine Rühl 1816-1886
Elisabeth Albach (Shepherd) 1839-1909
Marie Albach 1840-1840
Anna Marie Albach (Turner) 1842-1928
Christine Albach (Batchelor) 1844-1908
Katharine Albach (Wilks) 1845-1930
Maria Katharina Albach (Atkinson) 1848-1910
Elisabeth Katharine (Elise) Albach (Hool) 1850-1873
Phillipine Albach (Murray) 1851-1930
Henry Albach 1854-1930
John Albach 1856-1929
Selina Albach (Smith) 1860-1922
Blue
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I've started recording German pork butchers as I find them and adding them to a list I'm building up.
And if you then put them on the web, then that could be the start of a "German Pork Butchers" site,
similar to the "German Sugar Bakers" site ;D
http://www.mawer.clara.net/history.html
After thinking about my reply here, I added a new field to the SIT (Surname Interests Table)
If you all enter your Surnames there,
it will be easier to keep track of them all ;D
(search for Country = Germany and if you are just interested in pork butchers, then search also Occupation = Pork butchers
Topic: New possibilities in the SIT: Occupations
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,612580.0.html
Hope this helps :)
regards,
Bob
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Hi All,
following on from the last reply, how about a database of german pork butchers ??
Topic: Possible database: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.0.html
please add your feedback there :)
thanks,
Bob
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Hi Bob,
How I missed this thread is beyond me.....
Bob, I like the idea of a database for German pork butchers. I, like Richard Funk, have many German pork butchers, not related (as yet) to me, on my hard disk with their birth origins in Germany, i.e. Hohenlohe, Schwäbisch Hall, etc.
I lately thought of sharing my finds by opening up a Tree on the Ancy site and calling it Pork Butchers from Hohenlohe and surroundings.
One thing I have found is that a lot of the butchers from the Northern counties moved to Nottinghamshire and Norfolk from Yorkshire and back again.
One area that really snows with PB's is Liverpool. I have at least two of my ancestors there in Widnes.
On my direct line "Pfisterer", it ends with Johann Friedrich Pfisterer, Master Butcher in Mexborough who died 1875. His two sons, Charles Frederick moved to Flint River, Des Moines, Iowa and Christian Louis (my grandfather) ran a garage, taxi service, cycle shop etc. in Northwich, Cheshire following John Heinzmann, his first cousin, to Northwich, Cheshire who was a Pork Butcher.
Just aside:
I recently found my grandmother Margaretha Brück's 2 year younger brother who was working for the Hohenreins in 1861in England and in that year he emigrated to the USA and I had seen him but couldn't prove the blood line until I found him on the 1925 in Iowa Census in which mother's and father's names are required. He was my man!!! I have found all his children and their spouses and am about to send off a letter to his granddaughter to establish our relationship.
However I can help on this project, you can count on me.
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Hi SwissGill,
could you add your comments here please, so we have all the discussion in one place.
Topic: Possible database: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.0.html
thanks,
Bob
ps. long time no talk :) We now have a chat room again on the german forum, but only in german - no english nights :(
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I have one German Pork Butcher in my extended line. Charles Frederick Schiefler, born about 1866, Germany. Pork Butcher in Millom, Cumberland. Married Malinda Castle who was originally from Mary Tavy, Devon. Marriage date/place 15 April 1895, Millom. Charles Frederick died 29 December 1942 in Millom.
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Updated:
Topic: Possible database: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.msg4634669.html#msg4634669
regards,
Bob
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The Database for Special Interest Groups (DBSIG): German Pork Butchers is now officially open. :)
There are about 60 records in the database which I gleaned from various pork-butcher topics: most of them only have a surname at present. If you have german pork butcher ancestors and have contributed on this (or any other pork-butcher) topic, please check if your entries are in the database and edit in any missing details ... and add more family members :)
To get to the database,
- Click on the (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/history/images/english/library.gif)-Button at the top of any page.
You are now in the RootsChat Reference Library
- Click on the (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/img/DBSIG-button.jpg)-button
Please add your feedback and queries on
Topic: DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.30.html
Enjoy,
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Both my great grandparents were part of the German Pork butcher migration from Wurttemburg: Christian Alexander STEIN (Kunzelsau/Castleford) and Margaret HAFFNER (Hohebach). As far as I know Alexander Stein was the only one of his siblings to come to England, but all of Margaret's siblings came and settled here, including their parents in retirement. All the first generation of Haffners in England married into other German families (FUCHS, NICKLAS, RUMMLER, MOGERLEY). Before the marriage of Alexander and Margaret (in Wakefield, WRY) she was working for the SCHWAB family in Wakefield, and Alexander worked for a STEEGE family in Bradford. After their marriage they opened a Pork Butcher's shop in Castleford, where Alexander eventually built his own premises - still there today, but sadly boarded up and looking very sad - not as I remember it in my childhood, when it was a thriving shop, eventually sold to Farm Stores (started by Mr ZIEGLER). Maybe some of these names will strike a chord with someone?
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Hello Haichem and welcome to the Pork Butchers Family!
The Steeges and the Lindenbergers had shops a few doors apart in Bradford and were related. They were all from Künzelsau. Christian Lindenberger married my gt grandfather's sister, Friederike Pfisterer and Christian Lindenberger's sister married Frederick Steege.
However it would be better if we conversed on the Europe Forum. The thread is titled: German Pork Butchers.
I'm sure you'll get a hearty welcome there.
See you soon
Gill
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Hello Haichem and welcome to the Pork Butchers Family!
The Steeges and the Lindenbergers had shops a few doors apart in Bradford and were related. They were all from Künzelsau. Christian Lindenberger married my gt grandfather's sister, Friederike Pfisterer and Christian Lindenberger's sister married Frederick Steege.
However it would be better if we conversed on the Europe Forum. The thread is titled: German Pork Butchers.
I'm sure you'll get a hearty welcome there.
See you soon
Gill
Great post Gill, lovely to see that there is a Family link :D
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Preliminary research for a project on local men serving in the Second Boer War has revealed some German names.
One is a Harry WOLPORT (or WOLPERT etc) who served with the Yorkshire Regt. I've come across him before when researching the German community in the Rotherham area - he was the son of Joseph and Lissetta Wolport. He had served with the 2nd Volunteer Battalion York and Lancs before enlisting with the Yorkshire Regt at the end of 1892, and re-enlisted when the Great War broke out. Another is George WAGNER, who I believe to be the son of a John Wagner, another family I have seen before and who came from the same area as my own German ancestors (Grossenlinden, Hesse). A third name I am not familiar with is WEINECKE.
I wondered if anyone else has come across sons of German-born parents serving with the British forces during this period.
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hi everyone,
thought i might add some more info on the shy family butchers of blyth.
i have come across a link with george charles shy, born c1869 goole
yorkshire. george had a daughter called magdalene krafft shy c 1897
born blyth.
the middle name looks german, but the surname was used well before
ww1. the probate record on the family show they did well.
there was a fred hall shy same family, who died in 1942 is buired
at el alamein
regards, william.
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My ancestors were from Saxony but I'm not surprised to see people looking for their Hessian ancestors, as Britain has a history of using soldiers of the Hessian Army as early as the 1740s when they helped the English army to quell the uprising of the Scottish Highlanders. I think the Hessian barracks were in southern England.
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My FLAMME/FLEMME ancestor came over in 1864 during the rumbling of war on the European mainland when Prussia and Austria tried to gather together all the Germanic states into one Federation. He was of farming stock but he'd become a travelling musician with hi maternal uncle (an EHLERS) and I noticed that the English address they were living at in 1871 had housed a different set of BIELSTEIN and GUNTHER musicians in 1861. Whilst perusing German annual Court listings (= a "people count" = a type of annual census) I found older generations of my ancestor living either next door to, or in the same German village as, what turned out to be relatives of the musicians who had lived in the English address in 1861.
None of my ancestors are listed on the familysearch.org website and even if they'd been on the old website I wouldn't have found them because the search facility only brought up the first given name and at the time I didn't know their first names, only the name they used. I actually found their baptisms, etc., by looking in the library catalogue https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlc/ to see if there were any available films for the Ev.Lutheran Village church and when I saw that there was one, I went to my local Church of Latter Day Saints FHS and used their viewing facilities.
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I am related to the Shy butchers from Blyth. My grandmother on my father's side was Winifred Florence Shy, her father was George Charles Shy born in Goole (1868/9), his father George (1844) who came from Kunzelsau. They started in Goole and then in about 1873/4 they apparently were advised to move north. They went to Bylth where I gather they did quite well with George Charles's brother Alfred also opening his own shop. I believe it is his family shop which is the only surviving Shy Butchers in Blyth. I have had a little contact with Alfred's family and I think there was a Shy butcher's shop in Scotland also. if anyone is interested i do have some more info.
Shy/Scheu
Kunzelsau
Wuttenberg
pork butcher
Blyth
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My grandmother was Frida Vogel married John Kelly among other jobs he was a Caulker in shipyards on Tyne. My mother was Irene Marie Kelly who married my dad Joseph Richard Wells. They had 9 children oldest girl named Freda after your great aunt! They spent all their married life in Hebburn in South Tyneside ( not South Shields).
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Welcome to Rootschat Doug
I am aware of your part of the family (but not of the members in our generation) I believe my father's cousin Marie Hasenmayer kept in contact.
Once you have posted 3 times on rootschat you will be able to contact & be contacted via Personal Messages http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php. Then, if you would like, we can fill in the blanks in our knowledge about our family.
Helga
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I think l have a photograph of your grandma taken at Kruger photo studio Huddersfield. It is very formal . My mam identified her Uncle Charles, presumably Karl . Margaret possibly Marguerite my grandma as a girl and Polly. (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: Personal details removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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I am not finding this site easy to use and look forward to being able to communicate directly. I have no problem with posting my email address! It is fascinating to research family history and it would have been a lot easier if I had started before my mam shuffled of this mortal coli .
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Welcome to RootsChat Doug....stick with it....it does get easier once you get used to it and you can exchange personal details through the personal message system now you have made three posts.
Carol
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I have sent a PM to Doug so that he can contact me direct
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Hello to everybody. I'm a new member and am the great granddaughter of Johann Wolpert. I can add some detail about his entry if somebody gives me a hand re this site! I'm finding it difficult to use . . . thanks, Gillian.
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Hello Gillian and welcome!!
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
If you follow the above link, it will take you straight to the Special Interests Database. Klick on German Pork Butchers and you can enter your Wolpert ancestors.
You can click on "Add me to Researchers with family connections and also under "Readers' Comments" add further details.
If you still have questions, just shout out.
Gill
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Thanks Gill. I'll have a go!
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I can only get as far as putting a payment card details in! As I'm still reeling from my bank account being hacked I don't want to do this? I assume that's the end of rootschat for me then?
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Payment Card Details??
This is a free site.
Maybe someone will join in to help - fingers crossed.
Gill
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Some link to "My Heritage?" A separate organisation I presume. ANYWAY, Thank you Gill for your replies. I'll persist with Rootschat and see if I make progress. Watch this space!
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Hi Gillibrite
I have sent you a personal message, can you see it?
There is a button at the top of the screen which says "My Messages", there should be a (1) next to it.
Dawn
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Yes thanks, I have replied. I'm going to persist. Thank you for your help.
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My great grandparents were German Pork butchers in Bradford. The name was Johann Friederich Korner and Friedericke Wolfarth. Johann was known as Frederick and came from Neidernhall in the same region most of the pork butchers came from. There were other Korner in Bradford as well. I know something of their lives here but not much and nothing before they came.
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Hello Haley
I found their marriage in Bradford dated 31.7.1871
Their fathers were Charles Körner and Christopher Wolfarth
There is a Pork Butchers Database here on Rootschat
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
Kind regards
Gill
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Also, if you scroll down to "Europe" you can ask for help there
Gill
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It's on Ancestry or probate .gov.uk
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Hello Ann
Rootschat has various forums, one of which is "EUROPE"
Just scroll down on the main forum page, past the English counties, etc. until you come to it.
Gill