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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: gus1510 on Thursday 09 August 12 15:03 BST (UK)
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Hello
I am trying to trace back any ancestors from great great grandmother Elizabeth Neild who married Thomas Guest, and had illegitimate child Jesse Guest who is my great grandfather. They are from Caer Estyn, nr Hope/Gresford.
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Hi and Welcome to Rootschat :)
You don't give any dates but there is a baptism in Hope 5 July 1868 for a Jesse Guest. Mother's name - Elizabeth Guest of Caer Estyn. No father given.
Is that the correct Jesse?
Also, do you have any dates for Elizabeth and Thomas, please? It's easier to check up on them if we have a rough idea of their dates.
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In 1861, there is an Elizabeth Guest, aged 9, born Gresford. niece to James Taylor.
Living Oak Cottage (or next door to), Hope - RG9/4377/96/28
Not sure as this would make her 16 when Jesse was born. I've not found a Neild so far.
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Think I've found the family. I see that Elizabeth is 36 in 1871, so the 1861 one won't be her:
1871
RG10/ 3737/6/7
Caerestyn, Hope
Elizabeth Guest. 36, wid, charwoman
Charles, s, 11
Kate, d, 7
Jesse, s, 2
Jane Hughes, boarder, 21, brickmaker, b. Dudley
All the Guests, born Hope
I'll try to work back from this
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Elizabeth is Mary Elizabeth on the registration of marriage in june qtr 1858 Wrexham vol 11b pg 252
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Thomas and Elizabeth were living in Caergwrle when Charles was baptised in 1859. I've not found them on the 1861 yet.
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Thomas is not the father of Jesse:-
Burial April 2nd 1864 Hope - Thomas Guest age 26
but Kate is his daughter:
Baptism August 21 1864 Hope - Thomas(deceased) and Elizabeth,Bryn y Gaer
Regards
Roger
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Thomas is not the father of Jesse:-
Burial April 2nd 1864 Hope - Thomas Guest age 26
but Kate is his daughter:
Baptism August 21 1864 Hope - Thomas(deceased) and Elizabeth,Bryn y Gaer
Regards
Roger
I assumed that as it would probably have said 'Thomas Guest, deceased' under father on the baptism record, as it does with Kate. Also, the OP does say that he was illegitimate:
had illegitimate child Jesse Guest who is my great grandfather
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I've found a possible baptism for Elizabeth in 1836, daughter of Thomas & Catherine. Haven't found the family as yet in 1841, but there is this one in 1851
1851 Hope HO107/2502 folio 97 pg 11
Catherine Neeld head widow 38 pauper
Sarah dau 9
Mary dau 3
Thomas son 1
all born Hope
1861 Caergwrle Road, Hope RG9/4277 folio 133 pg 7
Catherine Guest head mar 46 charwoman
Sarah Nield dau 19
Mary Nield dau 12
Thomas Nield son 10
remarriage in 1853 from
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/
shows spouse as John Guest and gives Catherine as Griffiths also, so this looks to be her maiden name. Not sure what happened to Mr Guest - 1881 has Catherine as Neild again.
::)
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Very mixed family - No sign of Thomas and Elizabeth on the 1861 so far - I wonder if that area was one of the missing pieces :-\
Added - if they were in the Wrexham area in 1841, you'd not find them - much of the area is missing :(
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Baptism of Sarah in 1842, Hope, has Thomas and Catherine living Caerestyn :)
Think you've found them, osprey - Thomas Neild/Nield and Catherine Griffiths :D
Added - Kate is likely to have been named for Catherine :)
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can't see it on the list of missing pieces, but can't find them in 1861. Elizabeth remarries in 1871 to a Thomas Davies, and North Wales bmd gives alternative name of Neild for Elizabeth.
Can't see the Neilds in 1841, haven't found Elizabeth in 1851. They do like to keep their heads down.
Sorry, was interrupted by a world record so hadn't clicked post. Agree with you on Kate. Now, if we could just find them on the census...
:-\
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Think you missed my added:
Added - if they were in the Wrexham area in 1841, you'd not find them - much of the area is missing
I'm a bit dozy at the moment - was in hospital this morning and sedated. Please bear with me and my addeds :-\
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If not Catherine Griffith*, I'm slightly tempted with this marriage in Chester (St Mary's on the Hill)
3 June 1834 Thomas Nield and Catherine Kendrick
Not checked them through but worth noting
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Thank you all for your help, I only have very vague details from my father who left Wrexham in the 50's and I have no living relatives left in Wales that I am aware of.
I do know that Thomas died of scarlet fever before Jesse Guest was born. He is registered as Thomas Guest born circa 1868/9.
Mary Elizabeth does keep swapping christian names round in the end which i think is 1912 she was Elizabeth Davies but unable to trace death or find where buried.
Catherine Neild was Mary Elizabeths mother and she did indeed re marry Thomas Guests brother......very bizare! And I have not even started on my Grandmothers side Agnes Crawford.....Once again thank you for your help, I think the Neilds came from Kinnerton if that is near by, sorry my knowledge of Flintshire/Denbighshire is poor, could even be Cheshire.
thanks
Gareth
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yes sadly I dont think I will be able to ever know who the father of Jesse Guest was, so will have to concentrate on the Neild line.
Mary Elizabeth did re marry a Thomas Davies, a very common name but don't think any of their family survive today to get a dna......
thanks
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:)
Kinnerton is just to the North East of Hope - see this map link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0poo/
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Thanks am getting to know the geography of north Wales....I assume the 141 census is a bit vague here, I will look out some dates if it will help at the weekend when speak to my father.
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The 1841 census for the Wrexham area - including Hope - is missing. The Wrexham town districts were rescued an I have the transcripts from them but I'd not think that they were living in Wrexha mitself.
See - http://www.findmypast.co.uk/help-and-advice/knowledge-base/census/known-issues#1
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Yes I think you right, the Neilds are from Kinnerton way and the Guests from a place called Shordley, again have not found this place yet.....
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Shordley
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0pop/
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thank you for all this you have been so helpful and knowledgable in such a short time, all this new info to note and take in, I will catch up on here at the weekend. So was Mary Elizabeth Neild baptised in Kinnerton do we know?
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Elizabeth was baptised in Hope as were John & Thomas Guest. It would appear that John's marriage to Catherine Neild didn't last as he is with his parents in 1861, and then with his new wife, Sarah, in Broughton in 1871 and Higher Kinnerton in 1881. Sort of explains why Catherine reverted to Nield.
::)
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John's second marriage with a few years shaved off his age and a little fib about his status
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQGW-8RW
;)
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Possible death reg for Elizabeth
Elizabeth Davies 76 dec qtr 1912 Hawarden vol 11b pg 278
There's a corresponding burial in Hope parish.
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Thanks for all the thoughts previously on the Guest family tree. I was wondering if we could have some further pointers on the Nield family tree. In particular Thomas Neild who I think married Catherine Griffiths? and Daniel Neild who maried Mary Lloyd in Dodleston?
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Thomas was recorded as Neil on burial in 1850
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCR5-S7T
Age at death leads to a baptism 1 April 1804 in Hope, date of birth noted as 25 Feb, son of Daniel Nield of Kinnerton and Mary, his wife, formerly Lloyd of Kinnerton.
Their marriage in Feb 1804
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQTS-2Y8
Several possible siblings baptised in Dodleston
Anne 16 Feb 1806
John 15 Mar 1807
Elizabeth 20 Nov 1808
Daniel 15 Aug 1813
Elizabeth 10 Mar 1816
Edward 15 Feb 1819
Ann 3 Dec 1820
William 12 Jan 1823
Mary 11 Dec 1825
Could this be a first marriage for Thomas?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3PV-929
:-\
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think that Thomas marrying is another man. The address given on the marriage is Wesley St in Stockport & I've found a Thomas in Wesley St in 1841 with wife Sarah who is too old to be yours as he is enumerated as 45.
Searching along borders is always tricky, this explains the situation with the Kinnertons
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/HigherKinnerton
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Thank you Osprey,
While searching Thomas Nield there is an imprisonment for bigamy! so who knows how many families or marriages....my family appears to have a common thread on this!
Do you also know what further information can be gleaned from the marriage entry for Catherine and Thomas 3 June 1834 at St Marys on the Hill Chester....would this confirm Catherines surname as only later is her father a Griffiths for her second marriage?
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all you get before the introduction of civil registration in 1837 is names of the couple, their parishes, & the 2 witnesses. I've just looked at that marriage & she's Catherine Hendrick, both mark, both of the parish of St Mary on the Hill, and the witnesses are Thomas Millington & Mary Brown who both sign.
If that were their marriage, you would expect more children before Sarah. There is a daughter Ann who appears on the 1881 census age 42, she's visiting in 1851. Also a burial in Hope of an infant Elizabeth Nield 15 March 1835, abode Estyn and the baptism of your Elizabeth in 1836 abode Llai (?) Green.
If you buy a copy of Sarah's birth certificate, you should get Catherine's previous names.
Sarah Nield march qtr 1842 Wrexham vol 27 pg 273
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Catherine's marriage in 1853 gives her father as John Griffiths, butcher.
Forgot this earlier, her burial in 1883
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCRT-7CS
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possible baptism for Catherine
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NHSX-344
Haven't spotted John & Sarah elsewhere as yet....
:-\
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Thank you for the pointer about Sarah Nield, I will send off for that and let you know if throws up any more clues.
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hmm, curiouser and curiouser.
Think you can scrap the baptism for Catherine to John & Sarah. I checked on the family that daughter Ann was visiting in 1851
Hope, HO107/2502 folio 97 pg 10
Thomas Reece head mar 50 labourer b. Gresford, Denbighshire
Elizabeth wife 60
Mary dau unm 26
Ann Nield visitor 12
Jane Reece dau 2
all born Hope except Thomas
1861 Caergwrle Road (next house to Catherine Guest)RG9/4277 folio 133 pg 7
Thomas Reece head mar 64 besom maker b. Gresford
Elizabeth wife 76 b. Hope
Ann Nield granddau 21 b. Hope
Thomas isn't Catherine's father, so Elizabeth could be her mother. So checking the marriages, there is this one in Hope in 1820 of Thomas Rice & Elizabeth Kendrick
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCRY-DPG
both signed with their mark.
Looking at the marriage for Catherine & Thomas in 1834, the surname at the top of the entry looks like Hendrick & where she made her mark, more like Kendrick. But the BT is also on line, and that definitely has Kendrick.
The witness, Thomas Millington, is interesting as there are Millingtons living in Hope.
My theory at the moment is that Catherine was born to Elizabeth Kendrick & John Griffiths who were not married. Elizabeth told Catherine about her father & he appears on the 1853 marriage entry.
But I haven't spotted a baptism for her as yet.
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It is so confusing, you have a great detective mind, as you know from earlier thread Catherine married her daughters dead husbands brother, such a tangled web....
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meant to give you this marriage earlier for Catherine Kendrick
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NHC1-78D
They certainly don't make things easy, names that are easily mistranscribed & living close to county boundaries.
::)
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Thank you, I have added this to a family tree on familysearch.org. this also does find a marriage of an Elizabeth Kendrick and John Griffith in Bedford for 1726 on 12 Feb..... but far too early or mis type? There is also a Catherine Griffith christening for 18 Aug 1816 at Llanferres with parents John and Eliza which fits dates wise but who knows for sure?
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that John & Elizabeth Griffiths have other children baptised in the parish. Their abode is noted as Brynsaison or Brynsaison Uchaf on the later ones. On the 28 April 1847 in Llanferres, Catherine Griffiths of Brynsaison, father John a farmer, married Robert Roberts. She's on the 1841 census at Brynseison & is noted as Farmer HO107/1405/5 folio 10 pg 12.
Your Catherine was 38 on the 1851 census, she seemed to lose a few years on her marriage to a younger man. On her marriage in 1834, there is no mention of consent which should have been needed if she was under 21.
I don't think you'll find a marriage for Elizabeth Kendrick & John Griffiths. She was Kendrick & single on her marriage to Thomas.
One of the main family history sites has scans of the parish register for many of the parish records in Wales. It's always worth checking the original for the extra detail. FamilySearch & FreeReg are indexes only. It's also worth trying to find census entries, marriages & burials to see if you can trace candidates in order to eliminate them.
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Thank you for the help, I should think that is all we can glean from the Nields/kendricks/Griffiths. Would you also be able to look further back from Edward Crawford and Hannah Jones who were married 7 jam 1862 as am stuck here?
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Where did the marriage take place?
How old were the couple?
What details did they give for their fathers on the marriage cert?
What census details do you have for them?
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The marriage took place in Chester parish St Mary's , Edward was 28 and father also Edward . Hannah was 21 and father also Edward Jones . I can only find them in 1861 census in Burton Denbighshire where Edward is 26 and a stepson.
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the marriage was 1863 and the groom shows up in the index as Crowford
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQKJ-PH6
He was baptised in the parish of Gresford 8 Feb 1835 as Edward Crofford son of Edward & Mary, on the register date of birth shows as 24 Dec 1834 & abode Burton
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCP6-BP2
On Mary's baptism in 1838, surname is Crawford, date of birth 19 Jan 1838, bp 25 Feb dau of Edward Crawford, labourer, & Mary Bayley of Llay
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCPX-76X
Edward Crawford married Mary Bailey in St Mary on the Hill 13 Feb 1825, both otp, Edward noted as labourer. One of the witnesses was William Moulton who may have been the parish clerk as he witnessed a few marriages on the page. The other witness was Sarah Downes(?) who made her mark as did the bride & groom.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQGS-RZ4
There's a possible burial in Gresford for Edward Crawford of Llay 29 May 1839 aged 43. GRO ref
Edward Crawford june qtr 1839 Wrexham vol 27 pg 192.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCPX-JJP
I seem to remember from a post earlier in this thread that much of the census around Wrexham from 1841 is missing.
1851 Higher Lane, Burton, Gresford HO107/2502 folio 173 pg 4
William Lewis head mar 60 farm labourer b. Hope, Flintshire
Mary wife 49
Mary Croford step dau 13
Elizabeth Ellis second niece 10
Robert Lewis son 4
all born Gresford except William
Birth reg for Robert Lewis dec qtr 1847 Wrexham vol 27 pg 223
Marriage reg William Lewis dec qtr 1846 Wrexham vol 27 pg 456 with Mary Crowfoot on the same page. North Wales BMD shows this as a civil marriage so there won't be a parish entry for it. Getting a copy of the cert will confirm Mary's father's name & occupation.
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Many thanks again, I will look up get the certs. At least we now know of a Chester connection and to look at different spellings of Crawford . Once again many thanks for your time and answers. Kind regards Gareth
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if you're getting the certs, get them from the GRO for £9.25
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
or from the local office where you may get a copy of the actual register. If it's one from Wrexham, you can use the form provided via North Wales BMD, like this one for William & Mary's marriage -
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g7f/
Don't buy via commercial sites, they charge more than double.
;)
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=436673.new#new
I wonder if this man is part of same the Guest family.
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There may be a link back to where I got the Guest name back in 1860's with step brothers etc to my great grandfather Jessie Guest. But as my great grat grandmother was recorded as a widow when Jessie was born and she subsequently remarried I am not aware of other sides of the family tree to link with Joseph Guest.
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In my tree I have an Elizabeth Nield born 1747 in Doddleston. Wed Thomas Youd about 1780. Had 1 son and 2 daughters. One was Ellen who married Richard Parry of Higher Kinnerton who was my ggg grandfather. Elizabeth died 1797 in Doddleston and is buried in the church there. Humphpaul
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Hi, thank you for your message. My gg grandmother was Mary Elizabeth Guest nee Nield baptised 14 Aug 1836 dau of Thomas and Catherine Nield. Thomas Nield died age 47 Estyn 7 Jan 1850. His parents Daniel Nield and Mary Lloyd were married in Dodleston 6 Feb 1804 and Thomas born 25 Feb 1804 Kinnerton. I also have Daniels parents as Daniel Neale married Mary Piercy Hawarden 5th May 1772. Do you think the family trees are connected?