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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: kettles.watson on Wednesday 15 August 12 18:15 BST (UK)
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Seeking ancestors and descendants for the following:
John Calder b Ireland circa 1790
Wife unknown.
Children known:
William b circa 1806 and Robert b circa 1816. Given the gap I assume there are others. I believe the children were born in Ireland also.
William Calder, b 1806, married Mary Johnston, also of Ireland I believe, and she lived circa 1811-1868. They had two children that I know of:
John b 1835 born in either Ireland or Scotland
Sarah b 1838 born in Glasgow, Scotland
Sarah Calder married William Nibloe on 31 Dec 1860 in Girvan, Ayr (William's place of birth), and then lived in Glasgow, where the following children were born:
Sarah, Samuel, William and David.
Sarah Calder/Nibloe, daughter of William Calder and Mary Johnston, died April 17, 1768 at the age of 30.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Possible census for family 1841
All shown as born Ireland
William Calder 35 occ Labourer
Mary Calder 30
John Calder 6
Sarah Calder 3
Robt Calder 25
Margt Calder 20
John Calder 1
Address Muir Street Hamilton
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Thank you for your post-
I had a look at the census, and it doesn’t state the relationship of the family members. Is that unusual?
If this is the family of Robert Calder and Margaret Calder, nee Johnston, because of the ages I wonder if John Calder may have been William's brother, and the others could be John’s wife and son.
If so then it would mean that William and Robert each named their sons John, so if the Irish follow the same naming patterns as the Scottish, this could mean their father named John.
I am not yet familiar with Irish naming patterns…… do you know if the naming patterns are similar? I have done a fair amount of Scottish research but find the Irish very difficult. Any suggestions welcome. (I live near Toronto, Canada)
William Calder, age 35
Mary Calder, wife, age 30
Sarah Calder, age 3
John Calder, age 6
Robert Calder, age 25- William's brother I assume?
Margaret Calder, age 20
Thanks again. Eileen
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hi this may be some help to you Cookstown Presbyterian Church
by Rev. John Knox Leslie 1842 – 1843 notes Shivey Parish of Desertcreight
Baptised with Wm. Calder & Jas. Johnston Margaret johnson
21-Sep
1845 there more johnsons going back to 1807 i have a William Calder in my family tree from ireland he was in glasgow in 1851 and was born about 1831 ireland
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It has been a while since my original post and I wanted to clear up some errors:
Re the William Calder and Mary Johnston post
William Calder's father is likely John, possibly William. (Going by naming patterns). Birth date unknown, earlier than originally thought. Mother still unknown. No info on Mary's parents. Going by known children's birth years it would seem that William and Mary moved to Scotland, from Ireland, between 1838 and 1840. Regarding birthdates of William and Mary- William is seen as being born circa 1804 to 1806 depending on census, and Mary is seen as 1805 to 1811.
William's occupation was first seen as a labourer, then a leather cutter and later a cotton weaver and hand loom weaver. (Sources: censuses and daughter Sarah's death record)
Known children of William and Mary are:
Mary Ann Calder, b circa 1827 (per census), in Ireland. Occ in 1851: cotton spinner. She is NOT the Mary Ann Calder that married George Nelson
John Calder b circa 1835 in Ireland (per 1841 and 1851 census) no further info. Shoemaker apprentice in 1851
Sarah Calder b circa 1838 Ireland (per 1841 and 1851 census) married William Nibloe and died in 1868. William later remarried, second spouse name is Ruth McBride. Sarah was a hand loom weaver and a silk weaver
William Calder b Lanarkshire, circa 1840 d 1841
William Calder b circa 1841 Hamilton, Lanarkshire, d 1917 Married Elizabeth Jane York(e) (10 children). William was shown as a shoemaker apprentince in 1851, a leather cutter in 1881 & 1883, a leather clicker in 1891, and a boot top cutter in 1901.
Isabella Calder b circa 1846 in Blantyre, Lanarkshire per 1851 census
William Calder and Mary Calder, nee Johnston were both alive in the 1851 census and were both deceased by the time of daughter Sarah's marriage in December of 1860.
In 1841 they were living on Muir St., Lanarkshire, and in 1851 they were at Stonefield Farmhouse, Roadhead, Lanarkshire (civil parish Blantyre)
I can find nothing further about son John and daughters Mary Ann and Isabella.
Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
(note that in the 1851 census the last name was transcribed as Cather, not Calder)
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What a tricksie family this is ;D Muir Street in Hamilton seems to be the key to them though. Not sure how much of this you already know, but in 1841, there appear to be four siblings with their families, living in Muir Street: William Calder/Cather/Coulter; Eleanor Neilson/Nelson (nee Calder/Cather/Coulter); John Calder/Cather/Coulter; and Robert Calder/Cather/Coulter.
The death registrations for Eleanor, Robert and John suggest they are all the children of John Calder/Cather/Coulter, weaver, and Mary Ann Maxwell. Interestingly, there is a John Calder/Cather/Coulter, widower, weaver, b. abt 1780, Co Tyrone, Ireland in Quarry St, Hamilton in 1851. Can’t easily see him in 1841, nor can I see a death in Scotland, but the variations in spelling I’ve seen for the surname make it a bit tricky to track down any of them!
From the censuses where I think I have managed to track them down, this looks to be the make up of the four families:
William Calder/Cather/Coulter b. abt 1806, Co Tyrone, Ireland d. before 1860, Lanarkshire, Scotland
m. Mary Ann Johnston, before 1827, Ireland
- Mary Ann, abt 1827, Ireland
- John, abt 1835, Ireland
- Sarah, abt 1838, Ireland
- William, abt 1841, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Isabella, abt 1846, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Eleanor Calder/Cather/Coulter b. abt 1808, Co Tyrone, Ireland d. 1872, Lanarkshire, Scotland
m. William Neilson/Nelson, before 1838, Ireland
- Mary Ann, abt 1838, Ireland
- John, abt 1840, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Eleanor, abt 1842, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- William, abt 1846, Lanarkshire, Scotland
John Calder/Cather/Coulter b. abt 1811, Co Tyrone, Ireland d. 1870, Lanarkshire, Scotland
m. Mary Stewart, before 1832, Ireland
- James, abt 1832, Ireland (d. before 1855)
- Mary Jane, abt 1834, Ireland
- Ann, abt 1838, Ireland
- Jacob, abt 1840, Ireland
- John, abt 1842, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Isabella, abt 1845, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Margaret, abt 1847, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Helen, abt 1850, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- James, abt 1855, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Robert Calder/Cather/Coulter b. Abt 1816, Co Tyrone, Ireland d. 1888, Lanarkshire, Scotland
m. (1) Margaret Johnston, before 1840, Ireland. b. abt 1821, Ireland; d. before 1845, Lanarkshire, Scotland (his death record actually says ‘Mary Ann Johnston’ for his first wife, but I think this may have been an error - the death was registered by his eldest daughter by his second wife, Mary Ann)
- John, abt 1840, Ireland
m. (2) Elizabeth Clyde, 1845, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Mary Ann, abt 1849, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- James, abt 1853, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- William, 1857, Dalziel, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Isabella, 1859, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Elizabeth, 1861, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Robert, 1864, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland
- Margaret, 1870, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Back to the question of what happened to William's daughter Isabella. No joy really - there is an Isabella Calder/Cather of the correct age who married a James Burns in 1863 in Hamilton. She married again in 1880 to James Lindsay. I think, however, that she is most likely the daughter of John Calder and Mary Stewart - having a look at either of the marriage records will confirm this.
Ruth
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Dear Ruth;
I can't thank you enough for the searching you did. How did you find William's birth place in Ireland? (Mary Ann Johnston's spouse) Also, it makes sense that Mary has the second name Ann, but I am curious how you found out.
I knew of some of the families you mentioned but had not connected them and was getting a bit confused, so thank you for putting them all in order the way you did. I had thought that William's siblings were the John and Robert you mentioned but I had not seen his sister.
Robert, b 1816 and his first spouse Margaret were living with William Calder on the 1841 census, so that narrows her death to being between 1841 and 1845. Their son John, 1 yr, was also there. (Something that also made me lean towards his grandfather being a John.)
I had seen the John Calder b circa 1789 also, and I put him down as a possible father for William but had not been able to find a death either. With the names of the descendants I was fairly sure that the father of William Calder b circa 1805 would be John or William, leaning towards John.
You have given me lots to go on and I will let you know what I find....thank you again. It is much appreciated. I will post an update late!
Eileen
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Oh and Ruth, yes, I have the marriage records for Isabella and you are correct- she is the daughter of John Calder and Mary Stewart. Those were the only marriages I found.. I will keep searching though.
Thanks!
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Another note is that on John Stewart Calder's (son of John Calder and Mary Stewart) death record (Jan. 22, 1911) his name is given as Cather. There is a notation on the death record that his father went by the name Cather but the family adopted the name of Calder.
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How did you find William's birth place in Ireland?
Guesswork based on the fact that the place of birth given for John Calder/Cather junior and senior in the 1851 census is given as Co Tyrone ;D Clearly it relies on John and William being actually related - which in itself is pure guesswork, as we don't have a death for William. I know that John junior, Robert and Eleanor were all the children John Cather and Mary Ann Maxwell, and as Robert is with William in 1841, it's a reasonable assumption that they are brothers - but an assumption is all that it is.
I haven't tried pursuing the Co Tyrone angle to see if these families could have come from there. The Irish records for this period are quite tricky to track down - for example, the marriage records on the GRONI website don't start until 1845...
Also, it makes sense that Mary has the second name Ann, but I am curious how you found out.
Hmm - I think I might have made that up - or worse still, taken it from an Ancestry tree - my bad ::) Do you have the death records for Sarah Calder and William Calder junior? They should confirm their mother's name.
Ruth
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Ruth I have gone over all my notes from the past dozen or so years and am now able to fit it all together. Also, I found a baptism for Mary Anne Johnston in Tyrone, on March 22, 1808 which fits with the estimated birth time.
Thanks again for your input!!
Have a great day.
Eileen
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Thanks again for all your help Ruth... I have had great success and found much more.
:)
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That's great news Eileen - glad to have been of some help ;D
Ruth
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The Irish records for this period are quite tricky to track down - for example, the marriage records on the GRONI website don't start until 1845 ....
.... and that's only the Protestant marriages.
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I see you ave traded information with Eileen at Genelaogy Quest....she is working on the same line.
I sent you a PM on ancestry.com also.
Don Maxwell