RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: staceypea on Sunday 26 August 12 03:47 BST (UK)
-
I am a Minnesota, American whose MacDonald's, Macdonell's came out of Glengarry, Ontario, Canada. I have great detail on my line back to "John (Ian) Roy (Rory) (Ruari) Macdonnell" who came to the Mohawk Valley, New York, on the ship "The Pearl", with his son Duncan, in 1773. John was a loyalist during the Revolutionary war and escaped to Ontario with his military company in 1784 and settled. All Canadian info suggests that he was from Knoydart, but no specifics. There were at least 7 John Macdonell's or MacDonald's on the Pearl. John is of Hugh "Out in 45", who is of Ian Mor, of Rory, of Donald, of John Mor, of Ruari, etc. I cannot keep track of when the name changes from MacDonald to Macdonell, and then back to MacDonald in Canada. I would so much like to pin point this family in Scotland. I have visited Scotland once (but no one place to home in on) and will be going to Glengarry, Ontario, Canada in one week to do some Canadian research.
John's son Roderick, my 4th ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1745, his son Dougald, my 3rd ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1779. Dougald, of Roderick, of John Roy, of Hugh - has become somewhat of a mantra for me. If anyone has any connection or info on this families location or history. in Scotland, I would be eternally grateful!
-
Have you searched for the baptisms on Scotlandspeople (parish baptism records)? Knoydart is in the parish of Glenelg in Inverness-shire.
Set the search crtiteria to “surname variants” so that will take in Macdonald/McDonnell and any other variants of the name.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
-
Hi staceypea
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Assuming the family were from the established Church of Scotland, ie presbyterian, records from the Old Parish Records only seem to begin for the county of Glenelg from c. 1792 unfortunately. See here www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/pdf/list-of-oprs-57to119.pdf and in particular:
97. GLENELG
97/1 Births 1792-1820, Marriages 1804-25 Deaths -
97/2 Births 1818-1854, Marriages 1824-41 Deaths -
Other possibility is the family were Roman Catholic. Records for this are even scarcer unfortunately but you can check on the SP as linked by Elwyn Soutter above. Separate databases for Roman Catholic records available to search there.
Monica :)
-
Him you may find the local Mallaig heritage centre of help try http://www.mallaigheritage.org.uk/services/research.htm
Best wishes
I am a Minnesota, American whose MacDonald's, Macdonell's came out of Glengarry, Ontario, Canada. I have great detail on my line back to "John (Ian) Roy (Rory) (Ruari) Macdonnell" who came to the Mohawk Valley, New York, on the ship "The Pearl", with his son Duncan, in 1773. John was a loyalist during the Revolutionary war and escaped to Ontario with his military company in 1784 and settled. All Canadian info suggests that he was from Knoydart, but no specifics. There were at least 7 John Macdonell's or MacDonald's on the Pearl. John is of Hugh "Out in 45", who is of Ian Mor, of Rory, of Donald, of John Mor, of Ruari, etc. I cannot keep track of when the name changes from MacDonald to Macdonell, and then back to MacDonald in Canada. I would so much like to pin point this family in Scotland. I have visited Scotland once (but no one place to home in on) and will be going to Glengarry, Ontario, Canada in one week to do some Canadian research.
John's son Roderick, my 4th ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1745, his son Dougald, my 3rd ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1779. Dougald, of Roderick, of John Roy, of Hugh - has become somewhat of a mantra for me. If anyone has any connection or info on this families location or history. in Scotland, I would be eternally grateful!
-
Thank you all for your attention! I am new to this site and it is exciting how active it is. My Macdonell's are Roman Catholic, and mostly Jacobites. Thanks for the link to Scotland's people, I registered on the site today and will see if I can get anything. I am also quite interested in the mallaigeheritage resource. Very good stuff. I'm trying to get ready for a 3 week trip to Maine, Quebec, & Glengarry Ontario for research and vacation, so I do not know how much I can do before then. I might be able to tap into more Scotland info on John Roy when in Glengarry, Ont. The name thing is a real problem. These MacDonald/Macdonell's gave everyone the same names which makes identification very difficult. Fortunately, in Canada, the church records usually identify individuals by naming out at least 3 preceding generations. ie. Dougald, of Roderick, of John, of Hugh. This is very helpful on the Canadian side for being sure that you have the right individual. I wonder if they were doing that in Scotland in the 18th century?
Thank you so much. You have given me a path to follow. If anything else occurs to you please advise.
-
The name thing is a real problem. These MacDonald/Macdonell's gave everyone the same names which makes identification very difficult.
Likely you are seeing Scottish naming pattern. Lots of info on the web on this. This is one site www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
Roman Catholic records are incredibly hard to source pre 1855 and the start of official registration in Scotland :-\ My family is from similar areas, RC and MacDonald! My 3xgrandmother was Christie Gillies from Knoydart and I have have struggled to make much headway there other than picking up on an early 1841 census entry there in Knoydart for the Gillies.
The 'last wilderness of Scotland' indeed ;)
Monica
-
Have you come across this book?
The People of Glengarry: Highlanders in Transition, 1745-1820 By Marianne McLean - google books
At least 5 mentions showing for a John Roy MacDonald which might connect to yours. I have shrunk the link down here www.rootschat.com/links/0qgf/
You will see mention there of "John Roy MacDonald who left Scotland with his pregnant wife and three young children came from Shenachaidh on the Scotus estate...." and the further links. This talk about a migration in 1786 :-\ Later than yours?
Monica
-
staceypea, have to admit I get completely out of my depth with Canadian/Scottish genealogy for this very early period :P It is quite a specialist learning of terms and references.
I found this using the search term for Shenachaidh, which again connects to a John Roy MacDonald www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onglenga/Genweb%20Old%20Donald%20McGillis.pdf
Further mention of the Scotus Estate in Glengarry here - www.rootschat.com/links/0qgh/
Monica
-
Monica,
These are both very interesting links. The google book in particular. When my family wasn't marrying other Macdonalds they were marrying Macdougalds and MacIntosh's etc.
I get the sense that in the 1750's the Knoydart area was reeling from the after affects of the "45". My Macdonell's were definitely military folks. It seems like Hugh, John Roy's father, who was "Out in 45" might have a trail in Scotland. He did not come to Canada that I am aware of. Did Scotland keep records of all the personnel involved or noted in "45"? I connected to rootschat.com via a link re: Jacobites being transported to Barbadoes in 1747. They had a list of all of those at one particular English port and there were 28 Macdonalds but Hugh was not one of them. What I wonder is if there are other records relative to the disposition of specific Jacobites who fought in 45.
-
There may well be those records, but not sure what the best source for you to look at would be, sorry :-\
There is this post here on RC: Jacobite prisoners from 1745 www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,282134.0.html
Is this the one you mentioned seeing here? Might be worth asking some questions there too?
Monica
-
Only two Hugh Macdonald's listed amongst surrendered men of Glengarry's Regiment post '45. One from Glenmoriston & one Glenurquhart, one died, one transported. The regiment included the Grants of Glenmoriston. Young Captain Donald of Scotus was killed at Culloden and Allan, also a son of Scotus was a Lieutenant. The father, a government officer?
Skoosh
-
Yes Monica. That was the list with 28 Macdonalds, but none were Hugh. You folks have given me many avenues to explore, so please do not be sorry. I feel like new avenues and doors are opening. One thing will lead to another, including a more measured look at Marianne McLean's book. I think that there are more dots to connect there than I realized on my previous reads.
Never-the-less if anything else comes to mind please share. Thank you so much for all you have given me so far.
-
Skoosh,
I like that moniker.
That is very interesting. Where did you find a list with the Hugh Macdonald's listed? I'm very interested in lists. I wish Knoydart had a list of their people who were out in 45. Is Glen Moriston & Urquhart part of Glengarry - maybe not? The info I got from Tal Macdonald, a Canadian Macdonald genealogist, says that my Hugh was born about 1690 in Knoydart, Invernesshire, Scotland and died abt 1760 in Scotland. These are pretty much stock Clan Donald records.
I understand that many of those "transported" returned to Scotland after some time. I wonder what the rest of this family was doing in 45. John Roy was born abt 1715, he would have been 30. Plenty old enough to be fighting - but does not have the moniker of "out in 45". Interesting, my 5th great grandfather was born almost 300 years ago. I wish I could transport myself back to that space and time. I'm sure I would be quite surprised by what I would find.
-
Stacey, this info's from a book, "No Quarter Given" by Livingstone, Aikman & Hart, there is no John Roy on the list. A John Macdonald is listed as a labourer, Scotus's land age 40, transported. Found another son of Scotus, a captain, John of Crowlin. The regiment's strength varied from 500 to 1200 but there's nothing like that on this muster roll.
These Grant's defied their chief, the Laird of Grant, and followed Glengarry, their neighbour, as they, along with the Macleod's of Raasay, weren't a big enough unit. These glens are between Fort Augustus & Inverness and were readilly accessible to the military, they suffered badly as a result. They had surrendered to the Laird of Grant but little good it did them.
The problem with names is that these were not the names that they knew each other by. There is no John Roy on the list for example. He would have been known by a Gaelic equivalent or patronymic. Their English names would only be of use to them if they joined the army or appeared on a rental or on this muster roll, clerks wouldn't have a clue as to their real names.
The publisher of the book is Neil Wilson Publishing, Glasgow, £15.
Skoosh.
-
Stacey,
I am a Canadian MacDonald / MacDonell from Knoydart and the John Roy MacDonald mentioned is my 3rd Great Grand Uncle.
I normally prefer to stay on a message board but in this case I think I can help you and would prefer to do it off line.
Regards,
Tal MacDonald
(*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Hi Tal
Welcome to RootsChat :)
One more post here on the main boards and you can then use the Private Message service (PMs) to exchange personal info including personal emails. This is encouraged to avoid any online abuses.
Monica
-
I am a Minnesota, American whose MacDonald's, Macdonell's came out of Glengarry, Ontario, Canada. I have great detail on my line back to "John (Ian) Roy (Rory) (Ruari) Macdonnell" who came to the Mohawk Valley, New York, on the ship "The Pearl", with his son Duncan, in 1773. John was a loyalist during the Revolutionary war and escaped to Ontario with his military company in 1784 and settled. All Canadian info suggests that he was from Knoydart, but no specifics. There were at least 7 John Macdonell's or MacDonald's on the Pearl. John is of Hugh "Out in 45", who is of Ian Mor, of Rory, of Donald, of John Mor, of Ruari, etc. I cannot keep track of when the name changes from MacDonald to Macdonell, and then back to MacDonald in Canada. I would so much like to pin point this family in Scotland. I have visited Scotland once (but no one place to home in on) and will be going to Glengarry, Ontario, Canada in one week to do some Canadian research.
John's son Roderick, my 4th ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1745, his son Dougald, my 3rd ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1779. Dougald, of Roderick, of John Roy, of Hugh - has become somewhat of a mantra for me. If anyone has any connection or info on this families location or history. in Scotland, I would be eternally grateful!
-
How have you progressed with your search since this post? I would love to make contact with you as you sound like a relative of my ancestor. I was think my direct ancestor's Uncle John might have been your John Macdonald. They were from Knoydart. My direct line ancestor didn't leave until the Ship Macdonald in 1786 and settled in Glengarry Canada. I believe they met up with your John when they arrived in Glengarry. My Direct line is Donald Macdonald who married Catherine Macgillis. He had a brother Duncan and a brother John and a sister Catherine. Their father was John, son of John, son of Duncan Ban, son of Duncan, son of John, son of Ruari, son of Ian Ruari, son of Neil and so on... If you think we connect, I would love to correspond. My direct line descendant of Donald Macdonald and Catherine Macgillis came to Michigan in 1872. The last Macdonald in my direct line was my grandmother, Orpha Margaret McDonald born in 1891. I am currently trying to find out more about Knoydart and hopefully go there in 2016. I grew up in Michigan but came to Australia in 1976. I live in Melbourne.
-
I am currently trying to find out more about Knoydart and hopefully go there in 2016.
I go to Knoydart fairly regularly. If you need any advice on how to travel there or where to stay, or any general questions, I’ll try to help. Just send me a PM.
Elwyn
-
I may be wrong and I don't want to teach anyone to suck eggs but I have a feeling there may be some confusion creeping into the translation of patronymics here and there that could throw out the father to son succession. It is confusing as there are Rorys/Ruairidhs in the family but Iain or John Roy is neither Iain son of Rory nor John Rory but Iain Ruadh, that is red (haired) John. Good hunting one and all. Angus
-
Stacey, I can help if you still need it. Like Tal I am a descendant and know the history and ancestry (as recorded in Glengarry County) well. Take care.
-
There is a very good book called 'The People of Glengarry', Highlanders in Transition, 1745 -1820 written by Marianne McLean. It is published by McGill-Queen's University Press.
It gives a lot of detail about the McDonnells from The Scottish west coast & who were cleared from there to Glengarry, Ontario.
Good luck, George B
-
Just an update on my/our research into clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart as paper trails and Y DNA seems to support each other.
I started using genetics in 2010 to assist with my MacDonald paternal ancestry. Up until this point I had my line traced back to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald who was born in 1755 and passed away in 1836 in Knoydart, Nova Scotia (the area he settled in 1785, which he is attributed to naming after where he emigrated from in Scotland). The results of my first Y DNA test indicated that my paternal line was not of the Clan Donald Chiefly lines and I would have to search elsewhere for the origins of direct paternal line. Overlapping with the timeframe which I received my results I became aware of Martin MacDonald (1755-1836) being included in genealogical charts from the Glengarry, Ontario area of Canada. Further to the knowledge of these charts it was also discovered that Martin’s son John MacDonald died in the Glengarry, Ontario area in 1858 where his death was recorded by the St Columbian Roman Catholic Church and also by a priest (Father John MacDonald) who kept genealogical records of Scottish emigrants. In Father John’s diary, the death of John MacDonald records him as coming from Nova Scotia and being the son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus. Heading back to the genealogical charts …. Although the charts listed the names of ancestors, genealogists (both professional and amateur) where unable to answer basic questions pertaining to Clan Iain Ruadh, such as an overall history of the Clan, timeline or geographic origins. One major issue with the charts showed the Clan Chiefs to be of the Haplogroup R1A, where I was R1B. After playing around with this idea of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh, I eventually wrote off my Family’s inclusion onto these charts. I believed at the time Martin MacDonald’s mentioned as a mistake and/or possibly fabricated and continued my searching for my paternal ancestry elsewhere, even though I did have paternal Y DNA matches from the Glengarry area of Canada (with genealogies not showing a linkage to my paternal line).
My belief of not belonging to Clan Iain Ruadh was put to rest in February 2017 when I received an email from Garry MacDonell Garry had a Y DNA match with me and upon further testing we were able to determine we were both positive for the SNP BY154, which indicated a fairly recent (in genealogical terms) common paternal ancestor. Garry and I had not shared any type of research, however both of our Families had traditions of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh. Any remote disbelieve of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh melted away upon receiving a gravestone picture from Garry of the Auchterawe Roman Catholic burial ground in Inverness, Scotland. The gravestone belongs to Garry’s 3x Great Grandfather John MacDonell, on the gravestone (which was erected by John MacDonell’s son Captain Ewen Macdonell) “..John MacDonell of Clan Iain Ruadh..”. This connection was the motivation I needed to keep my research going.
My research had another two breaks with two testers from the Glengarry, Ontario area who had family traditions and paper trails of paternal descent from Clan Ian Ruadh. Both testers have matched closely to myself and other persons who are BY154+ and have genealogies that actually appear to fit into the older genealogical charts from the Glengayy, Ontario area I previously mentioned. One of these tester's ancestors (a father and son) where Loyalists who petitioned for Land in the Glengarry area. In their petitions, the son Duncan McDonell states that he was “from Glen Morrison, Late of Tryon County, N.Y. Province…came to Canada in 1780”. The father, John McDonell states at the time of the petition he was from “…Lot 17, Cornwall Township, N. Johnson, Late of
Tryon County, N. York Province…”
This is an area for further research, perhaps the family when in Scotland relocated from Knoydart to Glenmoriston, however it is most likely that the was originally from Glenmoriston. Important to note that there is a Clan Iain Ruadh MacDonald Sept that originated in Glenmoriston.
While I have had the opportunity to connect with my MacDonald kin and have been forming a picture of to whom and how we are related to one another through a combination of traditional paper trails and advanced Y DNA testing, there is still much more research to be done.
-
We are McDonald of Knoydart. My fathers (d:2017) Gedcom is SG7561391 and his R1a Clan Donald code is &JQNOQ. Our ancestors came out here to Australia in 1838 aboard the ship “William Nicol”. My fathers closest Big Y match is a proven McDonald of Knoydart descendant. Mr Kevin Eugene MacDonald (d:2020). His ancestors were from the Sandfield farms near Glenelg. They sailed for Canada around 1786 aboard the ship “McDonald”. Some believe the farms were part of the Barrisdale estate. Sandfield features prominently in his relatives names. His Clan Donald DNA Project code is &4QIZ5. We are hard to trace as the clan was disbanded in the early 1600s for excessive raiding and where they dispersed to is anyones guess.
-
We are McDonald of Knoydart. My fathers (d:2017) Gedcom is SG7561391 and his R1a Clan Donald code is &JQNOQ. Our ancestors came out here to Australia in 1838 aboard the ship “William Nicol”. My fathers closest Big Y match is a proven McDonald of Knoydart descendant. Mr Kevin Eugene MacDonald (d:2020). His ancestors were from the Sandfield farms near Glenelg. They sailed for Canada around 1786 aboard the ship “McDonald”. Some believe the farms were part of the Barrisdale estate. Sandfield features prominently in his relatives names. His Clan Donald DNA Project code is &4QIZ5. We are hard to trace as the clan was disbanded in the early 1600s for excessive raiding and where they dispersed to is anyones guess.
Hello Angus,
I am very familiar with Mr Kevin Eugene MacDonald's Family line. I am a 2nd to 4th cousin match with him, however the match is not on the direct paternal line. Have you tested with Family Finder through FTDNA?
-
Hello Angus,
I am very familiar with Mr Kevin Eugene MacDonald's Family line. I am a 2nd to 4th cousin match with him, however the match is not on the direct paternal line. Have you tested with Family Finder through FTDNA?
Did you run my fathers gedmatch I supplied Peter?
-
Did you run my fathers gedmatch I supplied Peter?
Is Kevin your Father? If so, nice to meet you. I am not on GEDMATCH, however the FTDNA database (company Kevin tested with) shows the match. (PS- did you test as well? With FTDNA?)
-
No Kevin is the closest link to my father outside of Australia that we’ve found, he is of the Canadian McDonalds, we are Australian. Both Kevin and my father are side by side in Clan Donalds Big Y results page.
-
Angus, have you or your Father taken a Family Finder test through FTDA, if so I will take a look. What is the name used for the kit?
-
Kit 440163 it will be under Lindsay Pxxxxxx
-
Kit 440163 it will be under Lindsay Pxxxxxx
Angus, it will probably be easier for you to find my kits (which are listed under the following names):
1. Peter MacDonald
2. Joseph MacDonald
3. Bernadette MacDonald
-
Ok looking now
-
No only Kevin Eugene comes up. Haplogroup R-FT203392
-
No only Kevin Eugene comes up. Haplogroup R-FT203392
Haplogroup R-FT203392 is under the Y DNA test results. Did you look under the autosomal test results?
-
Waiting for an email saying results are ready for family finder, pending atm.
-
I am a Minnesota, American whose MacDonald's, Macdonell's came out of Glengarry, Ontario, Canada. I have great detail on my line back to "John (Ian) Roy (Rory) (Ruari) Macdonnell" who came to the Mohawk Valley, New York, on the ship "The Pearl", with his son Duncan, in 1773. John was a loyalist during the Revolutionary war and escaped to Ontario with his military company in 1784 and settled. All Canadian info suggests that he was from Knoydart, but no specifics. There were at least 7 John Macdonell's or MacDonald's on the Pearl. John is of Hugh "Out in 45", who is of Ian Mor, of Rory, of Donald, of John Mor, of Ruari, etc. I cannot keep track of when the name changes from MacDonald to Macdonell, and then back to MacDonald in Canada. I would so much like to pin point this family in Scotland. I have visited Scotland once (but no one place to home in on) and will be going to Glengarry, Ontario, Canada in one week to do some Canadian research.
John's son Roderick, my 4th ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1745, his son Dougald, my 3rd ggrandfather was also supposedly born in Knoydart abt 1779. Dougald, of Roderick, of John Roy, of Hugh - has become somewhat of a mantra for me. If anyone has any connection or info on this families location or history. in Scotland, I would be eternally grateful!
staceypea,
Do you have contact with a living male who is a direct paternal descendant of this line? If so, Y DNA will get you a very good idea/if not tell you out eight what the kinship of this line is to other MacDonald’s who’s ancestors have roots in the Glengarry Ontario area.
-
We are McDonald of Knoydart. My fathers (d:2017) Gedcom is SG7561391 and his R1a Clan Donald code is &JQNOQ. Our ancestors came out here to Australia in 1838 aboard the ship “William Nicol”. My fathers closest Big Y match is a proven McDonald of Knoydart descendant. Mr Kevin Eugene MacDonald (d:2020). His ancestors were from the Sandfield farms near Glenelg. They sailed for Canada around 1786 aboard the ship “McDonald”. Some believe the farms were part of the Barrisdale estate. Sandfield features prominently in his relatives names. His Clan Donald DNA Project code is &4QIZ5. We are hard to trace as the clan was disbanded in the early 1600s for excessive raiding and where they dispersed to is anyones guess.
For many years we have searched or the birth record of our Great Grandfather William McDonald. The first time we come across him is 1881 in Liverpool as a 15yo living as a 'nephew' but we have never been able to find a connection. He married twice and his father's name was blank on both so we assumed he was illegitimate. On his census records he consistently puts Liverpool as his place of birth but we have never found anything. We recently had information the lead us go believe that he may have actually been Scottish. He had several sons but only one daughter, called Flora, as there were no Flora's on his Mother's side we took an educated guess and searched Scottish record for a William McDonald born to a Flora McDonald - and came across one in Knoydart. All the information we have is he was born as an illegitimate son to Flora McDonald and her father was Angus McDonald on 12/4/1867. I would really like to find any DNA matches to myself or my brother to confirm that we have the right person. GEDmatch BF780642 and SH3711605. Many Thanks. Sue. I will continue to search for his mother and grandfather but thought posting on here may be useful!!
-
Likely you are seeing Scottish naming pattern. Lots of info on the web on this. This is one site www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
Monica
Hi Monica
Looks like the dreaded link rot strikes again.
How about this instead?
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/blog/help/traditional-scottish-naming-patterns
Keith
-
Hi Keith
That comes in very handy too ;)
I understand why links become unavailable over time but isn't it a pity when they do!
Monica