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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Westmorland => England => Westmorland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: David Hankey on Monday 24 September 12 16:07 BST (UK)
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Looking for any information with regard to the above born Sep Qtr 1881, so after the 1881 Census, in Beetham, Kendal. Any details regarding his parents and in particular his whereabouts at the time of the 1911 Census would be greatly appreciated.
I know he moved to Aberystwyth, Wales at some point and married there in 1923.
Many thanks, David
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From 1891 census:
Reference RG12, Piece 4334, Folio 39, Page 11
Beetham, Westmorland
Coulton, John Head M 45 Papermill Labourer b Darlington, Durham
Coulton, Jane Wife F 47 Holme
Coulton, James Son M 21 Papermill Labourer b Gatebeck
Coulton, John Son M 18 Papermill Labourer b Holme
Coulton, Thomas Son M 15 b Lancaster
Coulton, George Son M 12 b Beetham
Coulton, Septimus Son M 9 b Beetham
Coulton, Frederick Son M 7 b Beetham
When he joined up (attested) in May 1915, his address was given as:
c/o Mrs Ward, Worstone, nr Burnley.
Next of kin given as Sarah Coulton, same address.
First marriage:
June qtr 1916
Skipton district vol 9a, page 91
Coulton, Septimus
Smith, Sarah
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Hi, KGarrad,
Many thanks for this information. I had no details of his siblings so that is a great help.
Any joy with the 1911 Census?
Regards, David
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On Army records he gives wife as Sarah Smith widow Sarah Carter spinster - very faint!
Children listed as
John Coulton b.26/07/1902
Christina May Coulton 15/05/1906
Frederick Coulton b. 1/3 1908
think the first 2 children were b Devon and Frederick was b. abroad
they appear on the 1911 index
we are not allowed to post details of 1911 census - you can search the index free
Suz
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Sorry we can't help with the 1911 census but it is free on Ancestry at the moment. RootsChat has a thread which gives a lot of helpful suggestions about getting the best from the free index too:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
Andrea
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Hi, Andrea,
Thanks for your message. I've had no success along the route you suggest and that's why I thought it worth an ask on here.
Regards, David
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Can't see him in 1911? :-\
But I noticed that, in 1901, he called himself Sap?
Living in Embsay with Eastby, Yorkshire as a boarder.
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I can't find a marriage to Sarah Carter.
June qtr 1906
Devonport district vol 5b, page 304
Coulton, Christina May
September qtr 1902
Devonport district vol 5b, page 315
Coulton, John
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I have found a marriage for Septimus & Sarah, nee Smith, in Skipton, Yorks which all ties in quite nicely particularly as 4 years later he has named her as next of kin.
Still having trouble finding him on the 1911 Census either under Sap or Sep.
Thanks for all your help so far.
Regards, David
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If you have found Sarah and the children in 1911 how many years does it say they have been married?
I assumed she was a widow. ie Sarah Carter married Mr Smith then later married Septimus. Maybe Mr Smith did not die until after she was with Septimus so they could not marry officially until 1916?
Andrea
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Sorry to be a pain, Andrea, but where as the name Carter come from.
What I have gleaned so far is Septimus Coulton married Sarah Smith in 1916, she died in 1921 and Septimus went onto marry Ethel Mary Worthington in Aberystwyth, Wales in 1923. My Aunt is a product of that marriage.
Regards, David
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See reply #3 and by careful use of the 1911 index tips you can find others in the household and some are called Carter.
Andrea
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If you have found Sarah and the children in 1911 how many years does it say they have been married?
Marriage to Sarah Carter would have been about 1898/99.
David - try a search for Christina May Coulton, born Devonport, 1907! ;D
That should get you the 1911 census.
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I have found the 1911 Census record relating to the May Coulton and the household she was living and the Carter part of it, however, I am not convinced at all thsi has anything to do with Septimus, Sap or Sep.
His marriage to Sarah Smith was not until 1916 so she wouldn't have had his name in 1911.
Secondly, I haven't been able to trace a marriage Sarah Carter anywhere, any year.
David
PS. I haven't said I've found Sarah and the children in 1911!!
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You can find them and publish the results without any problem as it is your family. However the terms and conditions of the sites that have 1911 say it is for private use only so the rest of us can't look for you without breaking them, which rootschat cannot condone.
However, are you saying that this Sarah and kids are not connected with your Septimus?
Have we been following the wrong Septimus?
Andrea
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His marriage, in 1916, would have been at the age of 33?
That's rather old for those times!
I think the rest of us believe that Septimus was married 3 times - 1898/9, 1916 and 1923
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Are there any clues in the Marriage certificate from 1923. Was he a widower? Witnesses?
Andrea
Edit - have now looked at the marriage. Witnesses are no help but he was a widower age 42. Engineer and father John Carter also an engineer.
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Looking at what I assume is your tree on Ancestry you have the WW1 records stating the address is care of Mrs Ward. See the replies earlier. That seems to connect with 1911 too.
Andrea
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This thread would be much better off on the Westmorland board. Beetham is 35 miles from Cumberland.
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This thread would be much better off on the Westmorland board. Beetham is 35 miles from Cumberland.
True ... the nearest thing to Cumberland is someone called Workthington. :)
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I have just studied the armed forces record for Septimus -parts are very faint but this is what I think they say
Marriage
Sarah Smith
Sarah carter widpow
spinster crossed through
marriage 26/05/1916 Reg Office Skipton
It looks like at first he had put Sarah Smith then underneath spinster
but then realised he should have put widow -so between Sarah Smith spinster -Sarah Carter widow has been entered and then spinster crossed through -as I said it is very faint
then underneath the 3 children are listed with the d.o.b.'s I posted previously . The 3 children are bracketed together and in the left hand column is written (what looks like) illegitimate. The 2 eldest children are bracketed together to the right and written is (what looks like) B/C ret verified 14/11/1916 -it seems the eldest 2 children's birth certs had to be shown to prove they were Septimus' children (maybe he had his name put on the birth cert -as they were registered as "Coulton" ) the 3rd child (Frederick) was born overseas
So it looks like Sarah Carter married Mr Smith - Mr Smith may have died -or Sarah left him to be with Septimus -it seems they lived as man and wife and had children but didn't marry until 1916 - maybe Mr Smith didn't died until then - or maybe he was in the armed forces and went missing and a period of time had to elapse before he could be declared "deceased"??
I'll see if I can find Sarah earlier
Suz
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To, clearly & Geoff-E,
Thank you for your input, however, you will clearly see from the responses I have had, which I am truly grateful, a great deal had been unearthed.
These replies have helped me enormously and although some have created other issues which I am in the throes of resolving being pedantic over Westmorland or Cumberland is somewhat insignificant.
If you are both able to add to what has already been offered I'd be pleased to hear from you further.
Thanks, David
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It seems Ada Ward was sister to Sarah Carter/Smith/Coulton
More in a mo
Suz
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Marriage reg FreeBMD
Dec qtr 1896
Rugby
on same page
Ada Carter
Roger Ward
6d 1137
(it seems Roger Ward was a military man and rose to rank of Sergeant-was also a prisoner of war)
Marriage reg FreeBMD
Jun qtr 1899
Basford
on same page
William Henry Smith
Sarah Carter
7b 297
1901
17 Wesley St Carrington Nottingham
Ada Ward head M 24 Sunderland Durham
Minnie G daughter 2 Nottingham
Walter R son 6mths Portsmouth
John Carter father widower 53 Tramway lab N.K.
John Carter brother 10 Manchester Lancs
Charles Knight Boarder U 24 Miner Coal Hewer Denbighshire
RG13 3187 110 20
Ada Ward had a daughter -also named Ada - it seems she was visiting her Aunt Sarah who was using the name Sally (a common nickname for Sarah)
1901
38 Broadgate Beeston Nottinghamshire
William Hy Smith Head M 23 Postman GPO Long Whatton Leics
SALLY SMITH wife M 21 Leeds Yks
Ada Ward visitor 4 Carrington Notts
RG13 3153 175 37
investigating a little more
Suz
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Here they are together
1881
29 Bridge St Lincoln
John Carter Head M 26 ag lab Corsham Hampshire
Annie wife 26 Ormsby Yorks
Ada daughter 3 Sunderland Durham
Sarah daughter 1 Leeds Yks
RG11 3243 17 28
Suz
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I am fairly convinced William Henry Smith (Sarah's husband ) was alive in 1911 - so Sarah must have left him for Septimus - am finding it difficult to find a death for William Henry as there are so many with similar name - and I don't know where he moved to ??
Suz
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Septimus in 1901
Main St Embassy Skipton Yks
Thomas King Head M 50 Navvy Bristol Somerset
Sarah wife 43 Kendall Westmorland
Margaret daughter 18 Bethel Green Westmorland
Thomas son 15 Point Turner on new railway Kendal Westmorland
Ernest son 14 Tool carrier Rlwy lab Kendall Westmorland
SAP COULTON Boarder single 20 Steam Navvy Driver Burton on Holne Westmorland
there were also 7 more Boarders who were "navvies" and 1 boarder who was a "shoeing smith"
RG13 4031 71 3
Suz
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Back to Sarah Carter/Smith/Coulton
1891 her sister Ada was a servant in Lancashire their mother had died and Father remarried
Sarah was being called Sally
1891
28 Albion St Irlam Pendlebury Lancs
John Carter Head M 37 ag lab Corsham Hampshire
Mary wife 27 Chesterfield Derbys
Sally daughter 11 Leeds Yks
Ruth daughter 6mths Pendlebury Lancs
RG12 3209 79 12
Suz
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Thank you for your input, however, you will clearly see from the responses I have had, which I am truly grateful, a great deal had been unearthed.
These replies have helped me enormously and although some have created other issues which I am in the throes of resolving being pedantic over Westmorland or Cumberland is somewhat insignificant.
If you are both able to add to what has already been offered I'd be pleased to hear from you further.
Most eloquently put :)
I will expand upon my point. I have lots of Lincs resources in my possession. If someone should post on the Notts board for information on something that happened in neighbouring Lincolnshire, I won't see their request and, accordingly, won't be giving them any assistance. Their loss, not mine. :-\
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It is very good and kind of you to elaborate, Geoff-E, and I fully understand where you are coming from but from the responses I've received I am more than pleased.
So, unfortunate maybe, wrong board doubtful, and loss certainly not!! ???
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Geoff-E has a very good point
For Septimus family it would have been better to post on the board for the county he was born in
Its our fault we are chasing after Sarah -and her family seem to have lived all over the place
Septimus was single in 1901 - he probably should be in 1911 -can't locate him - but it seems pretty certain he was living with Sarah as husband and wife - and had 3 children with her - which he owned up to on his armed service records
So your Aunt (the product of Septimus 2nd marriage) has at least 3 half siblings - did she know of them??
It seems Christina May stayed in Lancashire
marriage reg
Christina M Coulton
Varley Whitehead
Sept qtr 1933
Burnley Lancs
8e 539
Death reg
Christina May Whitehead
born 15 may 1906
death reg Jun 1983
age 77
Burnley & Pendle Lancs
40 10 40
Death reg
Varley Whitehead
Dec qtr 1950
age 46
Burnley Lancs
10b 754
Suz
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Septimus was single in 1901 - he probably should be in 1911 -can't locate him - but it seems pretty certain he was living with Sarah as husband and wife - and had 3 children with her - which he owned up to on his armed service records
In 1911, Ada and Sarah are still living together, with the children but no sign of Septimus.
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Septimus on armed forces records gives address as c/o Mrs Ward 48 Water St Worsthorne nr Burnley Lancs
1911 if you look again Sarah is not LIVING with Ada
Suz
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I presume you say this, Suz, as Sarah is listed as a 'visitor'?
David
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Suz,
Try a search for Frederick Coulton, age 3, born South Africa! ;D
Ada Ward + 5 children
Sarah Coulton + 3 children
+ 2 Carter's
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Hi,
Yes I have found them
As David posted Sarah is listed as visitor
This only means they were at the house on census night
I was wondering where Septimus and Sarah's children were after Sarah's death - I wonder if they stayed with Ada in Lancashire (allthough they would be adult)
I have found a couple of Septimus & Sarah's children married in Burnley registration district???
Suz
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My only reason for saying this thread should be on the Westmorland board was that anyone else who has researched this name will be on there or there will be researchers on that board with specialist knowledge of the South Westmorland area. It's a matter of posting in the right place at the right time. Mind you, the response has been pretty good so far. Good luck
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Sorry. I should have noticed it was on the wrong board. I was too involved in the hunt. Very good result!
I will move it now.
Andrea
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Thanks, Andrea,
I hope this appeases those who highlighted the apparent error of my ways and perhaps it will bring in yet more information.
I am grateful to you. Thank you.
David
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To, suzard re: message 25
There is a death for William Henry Smith registered at Basford 7b 140 also in Jun Qtr 1899 the same Qtr as his marriage to Sarah Carter. Could it be him and a tragic early end to their marriage? And another in Burnley Sep Qtr 1899 8e 111.
However, if either of those ultimately prove to be correct why didn't Sarah marry Septimus until 1916?!!
David
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The 1899 death reg Basford dist will not be the william henry smith married to Sarah as he was still living at the time of the 1901 & 1911 census
He was in Shardlow reg district. It is a very common name so will be difficult to find the correct one, especially as he worked for the Railway company -he could have gone anywhere in the country
There are several "possibles" between 1911 -1916 - but it is not certain he died before Sarah remarried
Suz