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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: valeriekerr11 on Friday 28 September 12 07:12 BST (UK)
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I found the details of the marriage of James Fraser to Christina Gray on familysearch.org , what I would like to know is the name of his parents, or at least his father.
Hoping someone can help!
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY9R-DQC
Valerie
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Hi Valerie ,
Have you tried his death certificate for his parents names ?
Hopefully the informant would have known who they were
ev
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Hi Valerie,
Two public trees on A/try for this chap, both have his birth in Rosshire to a Lt Col James Fraser and Mary Lloyd ... have you already investigated and discounted this information?
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What you have there is the index pointing to a marriage record in the Edinburgh St Cuthbert's parish register. You can, and should plan to, view the original, which is available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk at modest cost.
However it won't tell you the name of James' father; if it did, this would also be in the index entry.
The only sure way is if James died in Scotland after 1855, because in that case his father's name should be on his death certificate. When you are looking for a death of a husband with a common name, it is often useful to go for his wife's death first, because that is indexed under both her maiden name and her married name. The index at Scotland's People lists two deaths of Christi* Gray or Fraser between 1855 and 1899, but neither is in Midlothian.
I see that James and Christina had at least four children, all baptised in St Cuthbert's
Jane Macgregor, born 23 May 1823
James Lloyd, born 15 August 1825
Louisa Mary, born 18 November 1827
Robina Gray, born 30 April 1836
It's possible that the baptism records might contain some clues, such as the names of witnesses.
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Another researcher for you:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/fraser/messages/2026.html
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Thank you all for your quick responses, some questions answered, some questions raised.
Gali, I'm fairly certain that Lt Col James Fraser and Mary Lloyd is correct, on Ancestry the father of this James is Hugh married to Mary McCullock whereas the other researcher has the father as James Frazer (with a 'z') married to Mary Murray, I can't find details of either marriage.
Ev, I have the death records of James and Christina in Tasmania. No further details I'm afraid.
Forfarian I think the James "Lloyd" reinforces the grandmother as Mary Lloyd.
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I couldn't find a will for either James Fraser (d. 1813) or Mary Lloyd (d. 1845). I'm sure you have seen that there is one for James Fraser (d.1865) on the Tas government site.
But ... have you seen this very interesting - but unsourced - information from the Cyclopedia of Victoria? It starts as a biog of Charles Forbes Fraser and then goes into detail on the careers (but not family info or their heritage) of his father James, his grandfather James and his great grandfather, also James.
http://archive.org/stream/cyclopediavicto00smitgoog/cyclopediavicto00smitgoog_djvu.txt
I am no expert in military genealogy so perhaps it might be worth posting on the Armed Forces board to find out how to verify any of the detail contained in that document?
The only primary source that I have found that backs up the information in the Cyclopedia is the bit that has James Fraser (the great grandfather of Charles Forbes Fraser) 'adjutant of the Edinburgh Militia' and sure enough there is a Will on SP for a James Fraser from 1828 'Adjutant of the Edinburgh Militia, Residing at Lugton near Dalkeith'. It's 9 pages long - what does it say?!
I see from your profile that you are in Canberra, perfectly situated to get to the NLA and review these 'Papers of Patricia Clarke' you need box 16A ... a few gems in there to investigate?!
http://nla.gov.au/nla.ms-ms8363
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Could be worth keeping an open mind as to whether Mary Lloyd was James Fraser's (d. 1865) mother and not 'just' James Fraser's (d. 1813) second wife is that the obit for her in Trove has her as 'the wife', not 'the mother' of James Fraser ... The Melbourne Argus, Tuesday 23 June 1846, ' At Leamington Spa, on the 21st December last, Mary Lloyd, widow of the late Colonel James Fraser, of HM 78th Highlanders, who was killed in the Island of Java, in 1813'
Mary Fraser is on the 1841 census, 'independent', Wellington St, Leamington Priors.
Also, need to find out if James Fraser (d.1813) was in India in 1802 as there is a wedding in Calcutta on 21st Dec between a James Fraser and Mary Lloyd.
Listed here, in Jan 1803 Marriages:
James Fraser, of H. M. 78th regiment, to Miss Lloyd, sister of E. Lloyd, Esq
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0reu/
Link shrink - stretching page
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Forfarian I think the James "Lloyd" reinforces the grandmother as Mary Lloyd.
Yes, I would agree that it suggests a family connection, but in the light of the 1802 marriage it may just be that James gave his son his stepmother, surname as a middle name.
I would spell McCulloch with a final 'h', not a 'k', and I wouldn't bother too much whether Fraser has an 's' or a 'z' in the middle. I know that looks illogical, but in the first case the change of letter changes the pronunciation of the name, and in the second it doesn't.
According to G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland all early versions of MacCulloch end in the 'ch' sound - a voiceless glottal fricative. A few versions have no final consonant at all, but none of them has a final 'k' sound - a voiceless glottal plosive. The use of 'k' reflects the inability of the average non-Scots speaker of English to pronounce the Scots 'ch'; some cannot even distinguish the two sounds when they hear them.
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I'm overwhelmed with all this information, thank you both.
I agree that Mary Lloyd must be the 2nd wife of James - he was in India at that time. So now I hope to find the mother of James (1788) and/or the 1st marriage.
The puzzle at the moment - James (1788) and Christina Gray had a daughter Jane McGregor Fraser (1823), I am wondering how McGregor fits.
I have a letter written by Lt Col Sir Duncan McGregor (1787-1881) (commanding 93 regiment written London 13th Nov 1826) where he states "Captain Fraser -afterwards Major Fraser- was our grandparent, Colonel Fraser our great grandparent".
I have found a lot of information on Duncan McGregor:
http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I21515&tree=CC
but can't connect the Frasers and McGregors, it's a puzzle but a very interesting one.
I would welcome any more snippets...
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Let us know what names/info are on the Will of James Fraser (d. 1828) once you have downloaded it from Scotland's People ... if it's 9 pages long it's not unreasonable to suppose there might be a few descendants listed who would be further pieces of the jigsaw to investigate.
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I have a letter written by Lt Col Sir Duncan McGregor (1787-1881) (commanding 93 regiment written London 13th Nov 1826) where he states "Captain Fraser -afterwards Major Fraser- was our grandparent, Colonel Fraser our great grandparent".
Interesting though Duncan MacGregor undoubtedly is, he has to be a red herring in your research at this stage.
If James Fraser was born in 1788, and Duncan MacGregor in 1787, the latter's grandfather and great-grandfather cannot possibly be your James Fraser.
In this case, you may have MacGregors who were grandfather and great-grandfather to a Fraser, not the other way round.
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I thought that too- so have put it on the back burner for now, though the letter does reference the death in Java in 1813 of Lt Col James Fraser, and other details which make it unmistakable who he is talking about.
I got the will (of James Fraser 1828) from SP and I'm having fun deciphering it, so far I have found a daughter and son-in-law...
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Do share!
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This is the marriage:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYM4-HXL
I only had a record of Ann born 1787
The will mentions son James, daughters Ann, Jane (unmarried) and Mary married to Allan Grant
I have no record yet of births for James Jane and Mary
There was another son died 1807:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYNT-7WY
States death as 22 Mar 1807 age 26 Captain in the 1st battallion 78th foot 2nd son to Capt Fraser
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I haven't had much luck with these folk ... other than another Will from SP, this time just three pages:
Mary Grant, Alias Fraser, Residing in Dalkeith, Spouse of Allan Grant, Inventory, SC70/1/53, 11/03/1836
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Hi Valerie
I have quite a lot of background on James Fraser, these are in PDF form or word files and should answer a number of your queries.
Probably best if you email me at my work email at University of New South Wales. A simple search on Google will find my email address
Adrian
Professor Adrian Payne, University of New South Wales