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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Captain2 on Saturday 06 October 12 18:01 BST (UK)
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Help please.. I will give you what information I have in the hope that sks may be able to find the family.
Joseph Furnival married Ellen Summerfield on 22 May 1870 at Warrington. The Furnival's are predominately based in Runcorn in Cheshire and Ellen & Joseph's two boys - Joseph b. 1871 & John Henry b. 1873 are both christened in Runcorn, Cheshire.
Then the family disappear! I have not been able to trace any of them after this date. I finally found Joseph (jnr) after he married using the 1901 census but nothing prior to that date for any of the other family members.
I wonder whether Ellen has died and perhaps Joseph has re-married ? Where are Joseph (jnr) and John Henry in earlier census?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
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Hi
I wonder whether Ellen has died and perhaps Joseph has re-married
Have you checked freebmd for a death/re-marriage?
What was Joseph's occ on the marriage cert?
When and where were Joseph and Ellen both born?
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1871 they are living with John and Mary Summerfield.Joseph was a mariner and it says son in law Joseph his son was 4 mths old but Ellen is down as daughter 21 unmarried
Cawdor Street,Runcorn
John Summerfield was a boatman,is it possible they were at sea.
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There is a death registration for a Joseph Furnival aged 38, Dec qtr 1884, Wolverhampton vol 6b p390.
Two marriages for Ellen Furnival Dec qtr 1886: Warrington vol 8c p217 and W. Derby vol 8b p831.
It could be worth checking the marriages on FreeBMD to find possible spouses surnames then see if Joseph and John Henry appear with them on the 1891 census.
Hope this helps
Philip
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1881 has Joseph Furnival 10 gr son b Runcorn living with Mary Summerfield 60 widow b Newton
4 Portland Street Runcorn
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Is it possible John Henry Furnival didn't reach adulthood
John Henry bn. Jun 1873 Runcorn
Death J/A/S 1873 : John Henry Furnival aged 0 Runcorn.
claire
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Think Ellen must have died
1891
Joseph Furnival 40 waterman b Manchester Lancs
Sarah Jane 29 wife b Runcorn
Mary E 13 dau scholar b Halton Cheshire
Florence 1 dau b Newton by Daresbury Cheshire
Martha 11 dau b Manchester
Samuel Loyd 17 cousin farm lab b Runcorn
Newton Load,Chester Rd,Newton by Daresbury
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marriage
11 Sep 1886 Daresbury
Joseph Furnival 35 bachelor waterman of Halton father William Redford waterman
Sarah Jane Lloyd 25 spinster of Thelwall fether Thomas Lloyd waterman
witnesses George Davis,Ann Jane Davis
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Thank you so much everyone, you really are fantastic. At the moment I don't have access to the census details... aahh.. going back to the 1871 census does it give a birthplace for Joseph Furnival? and does this tie in with the 1891 census? Thank you Phil, but I'm not certain that Joseph would be as far as Wolverhampton ? the family have stayed in Runcorn and the locality. Of course I have made a note of the date and I thank you. I think that there is a clue in that Joseph aged 10 is with his grandmother.. ps.. I could not find that using FindMyPast.. so thank you! I'm thinking that maybe Ellen has died, there are only the two children... hmm... and I wonder whether she died after having JH who also died? a lot of questions !
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That marriage can't be for 'my ' Joseph I feel as he is shown as a batchelor when he married Sarah.. :-\
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1871 census
John Summerfield 49 boatman b Frodsham
Mary 49 wife b Newton
Ellen 21 dau unmarr b Liverpool Lancs
John 16 son boatman b Runcorn
Thomas 14 son ditto b ditto
Margaret 11 dau b ditto
William 9 son b ditto
Joseph Furnival 25 son in law mariner b Runcorn
Joseph Furnival 4mths gr son b ditto
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But he also has 2 daughter born a long time before the second marriage.So its possible Ellen died not long before 1886 when this marriage took place.The age matches the age given on the Banns for marriage in 1870
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theres a death for an Ellen Furnival 1873 Runcorn aged 23 .So maybe by 1886 he considered himself a bachelor
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Wow ! Thank you so much :)
Looks like Ellen may have died having her second child John Henry, I thought that she may have, so many thanks for finding her. I think I should perhaps get the marriage cert for Joseph & Ellen in 1870 this is then going to give me the details for Joseph and his father. This will hopefully then lead to either a second marriage ( possibly to Sarah) or maybe even the death reg. that Phil found.
Thank you again everyone for your input, a special thanks to Isobelruss, I shall order the cert and see where I need to head for the next step....
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There is no fathers name on the Banns just says deceased
Joseph Furnival 21 bachelor waterman Sankey Bridges father deceased
Ellen Summerfield 21 spinster Sankey Bridges father John Summerfield waterman
Banns read May 8,15,22 1870
marriage St Elphin Warrington
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Ohh.. thanks so much for getting this information for me it really is very much appreciated. What a shame... Joseph's father listed as 'deceased' and no name! I'm not convinced about the marriage for Joseph Furnival to Sarah... I wonder.. was his illegitimate? and rather than list his father, he just 'announced' that he was deceased. Before I send for the cert, I will have a look for births for Joseph Furnival's and see if I can find anything further.
Thank you again, really is appreciated ;D
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Ahh... but what about this one (just found on familysearch) Joseph Furnival to Sarah Jane Lloyd ..intended marriage at St Elphin's Warrington, Lancashire by lic. 6 May 1883. Joseph is aged 32yrs and a widower. Sarah Jane is single (no age) so did they intend to marry at St Elphins and then three years later marry at Daresbury? Sorry, I will take it all back... I am now convinced about Joseph & Sarah ;) should never have doubted you! It was the batchelor that was throwing me!
So it looks more likely that Joseph may have been illegitimate if his father is William Redford?
Whose children are Mary E (13) and Martha (11) in the 1891 census if Sarah is only aged 29? I wonder... well... Sarah would have been 16 when Mary was born so of course a possibility!
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I wonder if this could be Joseph 1861
James Evan 42 unmarr boot and shoe maker b Runcorn
Sarah A Furnival 36 boarder unmarr washerwoman b ditto
Joseph Furnival 12 son slte dresser b ditto
Mill Brow Runcorn
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You are such a star ! I can't thank you enough for all your help. Yes I would say that is a most probable for young Joseph. Gosh.. good on Sarah for keeping her illegitimate son, that must have been a struggle for her.
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You are such a star ! I can't thank you enough for all your help. Yes I would say that is a most probable for young Joseph. Gosh.. good on Sarah for keeping her illegitimate son, that must have been a struggle for her.
I'm really pleased to have come across this thread as I am a descendant of Joseph Furnival (and Sarah Jane Lloyd).
Perhaps I can also shed "some" light on what others have been saying from family chats with my (now deceased) great aunts.
Joseph was, indeed, illegitimate. The good news is, I know who his real father was, but I am slightly hesitant to name-names here on account that he was a very prominent member of the aristocracy. His descendant is still a high profile figure. The reason why he was involved in the maritime industry is that his real father bought silence and set him up in business.
Joseph's daughter, Florence, was my great grandmother and married a gentleman named Joseph Stathers (they lives at Aston, near Sutton Weaver) and are buried in the parish church. Her younger brother, Granville, was killed in 1917 during world war one, and his picture can be found here: http://www.nightsinthepast.com/European_Battlefields.html
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Granville and Florence (Joseph's children, aforementioned) also had another brother called Garfield who died in 1972 (I think).
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Just spoken to my mother who knows a little bit about this (family chats from backalong!). Apparently, Joseph Furnival died of Pneumonia - he had arrived back from a shipping venture to Ireland where he had become ill. It is said that some of his friends initially thought he was drunk, but he passed away shortly after returning to Cheshire.
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Hello Christian and many thanks for responding to my post. Is this the marriage for Joseph & Sarah Jane Lloyd and is Joseph's father William Redford?
marriage
11 Sep 1886 Daresbury
Joseph Furnival 35 bachelor waterman of Halton father William Redford waterman
Sarah Jane Lloyd 25 spinster of Thelwall fether Thomas Lloyd waterman
witnesses George Davis,Ann Jane Davis
To-date I had not followed up with Joseph & Sarah Jane so would love to learn more about them and their children. I can tell you that I followed the line from Joseph & Ellen Summerfields first and only surviving child Joseph Furnival who was born in 1871. I have also looked back at Joseph (1849) and his mother Sarah so would be happy to share info/details if you wish
Once again thanks for replying.
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Hi Captain2!
Joseph's father was not William Redford. Indeed, I have never heard of the name, although there was mention by my great aunts that a fellow (unnamed) was a "stand in". Or something like that.
The marriage dates and ages stack up. As indeed does the fact that it happened at Daresbury - both she and Joseph are buried there. After he died she fell on very hard times, and it was suggested by the authorities that the children be sent to the workhouse. She refused and was horrified by the idea, eventually marrying a gentleman by the name of Thomas Lockett (he survived her, and she was interred with Joseph).
Granville (aforementioned) died in a Canadian Casualty Clearing Station near Poperinge in Belgium aged 23. She never, ever, recovered from his death and became reclusive (we have the ladies' watch she made from the sovereigns he had in his pocket when he died). My great grandmother, Florence, died at Aston House (near Sutton Weaver), as indeed did her younger brother Garfield (he suffered from polio and never married).
Incidentally, my mother has a tapestry made by Sarah Ann Furnival when she was 12 years old.
Alas, I am sketchy as to who her parents were, so any information would be very welcome!!!
As to the identity of Joseph's real father?... You'll be amazed.
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Hello again Captain2,
Forgive me for taking time to debate whether to "enlighten" further, it's just that the Furnivals (i.e family of Joseph and Sarah Jane Lloyd) were a very tight-knitted family and effectively kept the identity of Joseph's father to themselves. However, these things all happened a long time ago, and I see no reason why I should continue that trend!
Joseph was illegitimate. But, according to his granddaughters (of whom one was my grandmother), his real father was Hugh Lupus Grosvenor, the 1st Duke of Westminster.
To my knowledge, Sarah Ann Furnival worked at Eaton Hall for a short while in her late teens (perhaps very early twenties). She and Hugh Lupus had a short affair (he wasn't married to Lady Constance Leveson Gower until a few years later) and, despite her requests, he refused to legitimise the child through marriage. And, let's be honest, that was unlikely given that she was a domestic servant and he one of the richest men in the United Kingdom. But, either way, Joseph was his first born son.
Of course, this may sound preposterous. But have another look at the photo of Granville Furnival at the link I provided earlier and I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Personally, despite that fact that I am 99% convinced that my great-great-great-great grandfather was Hugh Lupus, I have no affinity with the family from a "these are my roots" perspective. For me, the fact that Sarah Ann brought up a little boy by herself in poverty during an age where illegitimacy was taboo means far more.
But the person I feel most close to is Granville. That is why I have his photograph on the wall, just to remind myself how fortunate I am to have the lovely young family that he ought to have had. I fully intend to travel with my mother to his grave at Lijssenthoek War Cemetary in the next few years - no family member has ever done so to date.
So, now I've written that I'm wondering whether to click "post". But there's no good reason not to do so anymore.
Best wishes,
Christian
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Hello Christian - Thank you so much for the information; well that certainly is very interesting I agree. From what I can gather, Sarah did not benefit from their 'daliance' she bought up her son without favour, by the 1861 census she is unmarried with her son Joseph aged 12 and they are both boarding in the house of James Evans in Runcorn, so no money and no prospects it would seem until she did finally marry in 1865, so a happier ending.... perhaps.
Thank you again for responding and for putting forward such an exciting new development, I certainly feel this calls for more investigation.......
Very kind regards
Angie
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Hi Angie,
It is certainly interesting in an "upstairs-downstairs" kind of way! But, seriously, it would have been extraordinarily difficult for Sarah.
I wish I could furnish you with more detail regarding the alleged affair between her and Hugh Lupus, but I now have to go only on what I can recall during conversations with my grandmother, Primrose, and her sisters. They were salt-of-the-earth folks and certainly not the sort to fabricate myth. Thankfully, my mother remembers her grandmother Florence (Joseph's daughter) with great affection - she was, she says, extremely beautiful in all ways.
My problem is finding out more about Sarah Jane Lloyd and Sarah Ann Furnival, so I would be extremely grateful if you could share any information as to their genealogy. After all, my maternal line passes through the former.
With regards to Joseph, I believe (could be Chinese whispers) that his real father provided him with a little bit of cash to set him up in business during his teenage years. From memory, a lot of his work involved travelling to Ireland, and there was some mention of transporting stud horses back to Cheshire. But don't quote me completely!
Speak soon.
Christian
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Thank you Christian, I shall PM you with the details that I have for Sarah Ann.
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Wow ! Thank you so much :)
Looks like Ellen may have died having her second child John Henry, I thought that she may have, so many thanks for finding her. I think I should perhaps get the marriage cert for Joseph & Ellen in 1870 this is then going to give me the details for Joseph and his father. This will hopefully then lead to either a second marriage ( possibly to Sarah) or maybe even the death reg. that Phil found.
Thank you again everyone for your input, a special thanks to Isobelruss, I shall order the cert and see where I need to head for the next step....
Hi,
I have read your posts with interest, and have a copy of the marriage certificate between Joseph Furnivall and Ellen Summerfield. It states that Joseph`s father was James Furnival (deceased).
Gary
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Hello Gary and a very warm welcome to Rootschat :) Well.. that is interesting. I wonder whether the Joseph that married Ellen Summerfield was indeed the same Joseph that married Sarah? I had wondered if there were two Joseph's ? Joseph is a mystery. I wonder who James Furnival is? I know that Joseph is the son of Sarah Furnival as he is with her in the census and I can find no trace of a marriage for Sarah so pressumed that Joseph is illegitimate, however I cannot find a suitable birth registration for him ? I wonder whether he took the name James for his father's name from James Evans who the family lived with? Lots of questions, but no definate answers. I do have quite a bit of information for his mother Sarah-Ann which I would be happy to share
Kind Regards
Angie
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Hi Gary,
Interesting stuff!
However, I think Angie might have it. There's little doubt that Joseph was illegitimate - we have Sarah Ann's tapestry she made when she was 12 years old and it is marked "Sarah Ann Furnival". Joseph's illegitimacy was always known by my family (i.e. the descendants of Joseph and Sarah Jane).
Keep that precious document safe!!!
Best wishes,
Christian