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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: DavidJP on Thursday 10 January 13 23:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
Hope someone can help with this as this has been stumping me for ages now!
My 3x gt grandparents had 11 children between 1848/49 & 1865. My 3x gt grandparents names were John T Doyle & Margaret Wood who married in St Mary's Catholic Chapel, Manchester on 20th Feb 1848.
The 11 Children were Mary b1848/49, Margaret Jane b1850 (my 2x gt grandmother), Joseph b1851, Ted/Edward b1855, Elizabeth b1856, Matilda b1856, Ellen b1859, Nicholas b1859, James b1863 & Agnes b1865. Sadly Margaret died in 1865 probably as a result of the birth of Agnes.
This query concerns the children Mary, Sarah, Joseph, Ted/Edward & Ellen who are missing from home in 1861 but turn up alive & well with the rest of the family in 1871 with the exception of Mary. Unfortunately the name Mary Doyle is a rather common one & picking out any record (birth, marriage etc) about her is extremely difficult.
The family in 1861 are at 8, Blackburn St (i think that's the street name anyway!) Hulme RG9/2900/?/38. Unfortunately i don't seem to have the folio no, apologies for that! In 1871 the family are at 24, Fortune Street, Manchester. John T having remarried to 2nd wife Caroline Stringer in 1870. 1871 ref is RG10/4048/49/37.
I did have a look at the 1861 Census myself using familysearch as i have no memberships & found the following possibles (sorry no ref numbers for these!)
Edward Doyle b1854 Lancashire & residing in Oldham, Oldham below Town.
Ellen Doyle b1861 Manchester & residing in Manchester, St George.
Joseph Doyle b1852 Manchester & residing in Derby, St Alkmund.
Sarah Doyle b1850 Hulme & residing in Chorlton, Ardwick.
And 3 possibles for Mary:
Mary Doyle b1849 Manchester & residing in Manchester, Ancoats.
Mary Doyle b1849 Manchester & residing in Manchester, St George.
Mary Doyle b1850 Manchester & residing in Manchester, Ancoats.
I would be extremely grateful if someone could assist with this.
Also i have also been unable to find baptisms for any of the children, i am wondering if they may have been baptised as catholics as there parents married as catholics. If they were baptised as catholics were would i find records for such?
Any and all help with this would be gratefully received!
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards
David
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Hi
Ellen DOYLE born 1861 living Manchester St George was the daughter of James and Julia DOYLE
Edward DOYLE born about 1857 living Oldham below Town was the son of John and Mary DOYLE
Joseph DOYLE born about 1852 Lancashire living Derbyshire son of Joseph and Anne DOYLE
Sarah DOYLE born about 1850 living Hulme daughter of Edward and Elizabeth DOYLE
Sorry
Karenlee
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Hi Karenlee,
Many thanks indeed for you reply!
I had suspected as much with the Edward in Oldham, but all of them! Good grief, where the devil are they then? ???
This has been bugging me for years now! Oh well, back to the drawing board i suppose! ;D
Many thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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I think those children were Caroline's-so born STRINGER?
1861
2957 /24/ 43
Maureen
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Just typed it out:
14 Charles Street Manchester
STRINGER, Caroline Occ: Formerly weaver widow born Sheffield 1821
STRINGER, Emily Occ Weaver born Manchester 1843
STRINGER, Mary Weaver born Sheffield 1847
STRINGER, Sarah born Manchester 1850
STRINGER, Joseph born 1863 Manchester *should be 1853
STRINGER, Edward Born 1856 Manchester
STRINGER, Henrietta Daughter born 1859 Manchester
Maureen
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Hi MaureeninNY,
Many thanks for your reply!
Mary is definately John & Margaret's daughter as she appears with them on the 1841 Census. The others however, that is a possibility. Until i can look at the ref you've given i can't be sure (i have no memberships). If so that does leave rather a large gap of 6 years between Margaret Jane & Matilda's births!
As usual with my family history, more questions than answers! lol : ;D
Just caught your next reply as i was writing this, Sarah & Edward possibly Caroline's, but John & Margaret's Joseph born 1852/53 not 1863.
Kind regards
David
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OOPSIE! Can't type! Joseph born 1853. :-[
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When you look at the 1881 census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ8D-TPR
You see Henrietta and Sarah as step-daughters. I think Henrietta is "Ellen" from the 1871 census. It might say "Etter" or something similar.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen,
Many thanks for replies,
That's ok! Can't type meself half the time, spend half the time when writing posts, checking what i've typed! lol ;D
So, it is looking like Sarah, Joseph & Edward are more likely than not, Caroline's children. However regarding Henrietta, i am unconvinced, it's definately Ellen on 1871 Census.
Had seen step daughter's written in that census return before, but hadn't cottoned on to what it might/probably means until now!
Just discovered following marriage on Freebmd
June qtr 1872 Stringer Sarah to Pickering John
Also this, which i already knew:
Daughter Jane born Sept qtr 1873 & Husband John died June qtr 1873 aged 25.
So i think that this confirms that Sarah was indeed Caroline's daughter!
Kind regards
David
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Right. Well,even so,I think "Ellen" in 1871 is the same person as "Henrietta" in 1861 and 1881. :)
Maureen
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Oooops, just realised that when i said that daughter Mary was with parents John & Margaret on the 1841 Census, i actually meant 1851! :-[
John & Margaret Doyle are with daughters Mary & Margaret in 1851 at 28 Scott Street, Manchester, ref: HO107/2228/89/46 but may be mistranscribed as Doile as that is how it appears to have been written on the return itself.
Re; Henrietta/Ellen, could well be the same person although having consulted my Oxford names companion book, the two aren't even remotely connected. Have also done quick search for Henrietta Stringer in 1871 on familysearch & drew a blank!
This all still leaves Mary missing in 1861 though!
many thanks for all help so far.
Kind regards
David
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Do you think perhaps Mary has died by 1861?
Maureen
(off to bed for me :))
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Hi Maureen,
Have certainly thought about Mary having died by 1861. I shall have to double check & make sure i haven't missed anything!
Many thanks.
Kind regards
David
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Hi Maureen,
Arrrghhhh, i think finding a possible death for Mary Doyle between 1851 & 1861 is going to be a tall order! 15 possibles for just plain Mary, 6 for Mary Ann's & a Mary Deborah, all before ages were added to the death index. :o
oh boy, where do i start! lol ;D
Kind regards
David
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Hi David
have you tried having a look for Mary on the Lancs OPC website - www.lan-opc.org.UK ?
best of luck
Maria
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Hi Maria,
Many thanks for your reply!
Have tried the lan opc website before & just tried again, coming up with nothing. However, it's stated on the 1851 Census, that they were in the ecclesiastical parish of St Andrew in Manchester, which i couldn't see on lan opc.
Mary's parents John & Margaret Doyle married as catholics, so it's possible that the children's baptisms & any burials might have taken place in a catholic church, although this is not certain.
Kind regards
David
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Hi all,
Looks like i've found Mary Doyle's death on lancashire bmd website:
Mary Doyle, Age 4, 1853, London Road sub district, Manchester reg district.
Which means 3 possibles on freebmd, no way to connect details from lancs bmd to details on freebmd unfortunately. However 3 possibles is way better than 22, i think you'll agree!! ;D
Kind regards to all.
David
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Well done,David! That certainly looks like a good possibility.(considering all the choices!!!).
Could you not order the cert from the register office itself? (I forget the difference in price but at least you'll know you're getting the one you want.).
Good luck :)
Maureen
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Hi Maureen,
If memory serves me right, it's £9.25 from the GRO & £10 from the local register office. I will order Mary's death cert just as soon as i can afford to do so.
Many thanks for all your help!
Kind regards
David
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I have an Annie Doyle c1874 from Ancoats who married John Grace also from Ancoats. Annie's father was called James Doyle. Do you think there may be any connection with your family.
Clogdancer
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Hi Clogdancer,
Unfortunately i don't think there is a connection. My 3x gt grandparents John T Doyle & Margaret Wood had their children between 1848 & 1865. Margaret died in 1865 & although John T remarried in 1870, there was no issue resulting of this second marriage. John T Doyle's father was also John Doyle.
John T Doyle did have a son named James but born 1863. James married Ellen Hagan in 1888.
So as far as i can tell, there is no connection, but if anything changes i'll let you know!
Best of luck with your research.
Kind regards
David
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Hello, I'm not sure if this will help but I think I have some missing pieces. My line is the Stringer line. My grandmother's mother was Mary Ann Stringer (b. 1843Sheffield). Her parents were Henry and Caroline Stringer (b.1822 Sheffield). Henry died prior to 1868 (don't have exact date).I know this because it is listed on Mary Ann's marriage cert (m.Joseph Gibson). It also states that they lived at 24 Fortune Street. Now having said that, our grandmother told us that Mary Ann had a step mother whose name was Patsy Doyle. I don't think this is coincidence especially with the names and address being the same written in your request but I don't see a Patsy listed in all your names. It would make sense that Caroline remarried since Henry died 1868 and you have a Caroline Stringer married John Doyle in 1870. Could it be that someone had that messed up in our tree?? Perhaps my great grandmother had a step father not a step mother. I just can't figure out the name "Patsy". The following are the children that I have on our tree for Caroline: Mary Ann 1843, Emilia 44, Mary Ann b.1847, Sarah1850, Joseph1853, Edwin 1856 and Henrietta1859. Not sure why there a two Mary Ann's. As a side note, I believe the Stringer's were Anglican and that's why you couldn't find them in a catholic church. Let me know if this helps and also if you have a date for Caroline's death. We do not have any death dates for her or her first husband. I just read MaureeninNY and she is correct. I'm so glad you posted because it gave my family a window into the Doyle side. Many thanks, Paula
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Hi Paula,
A very warm welcome to Rootschat!
Its wonderful to hear from you. Your information definitely clears things up a little bit.
So lets set things out so that we can see clearly whats what & whose children are who's!
John Doyle married Margaret Doyle in 1848 in St Mary's Catholic Chapel, Manchester & had the following children, that I know of so far:
Mary b1848/49 d1853?
Margaret Jane b1850 d1916 Married Thomas Gibson (My gt gt grandparents)
Mathilda b1856 d1934 Married (1) John Richard Morgan & (2) John Ryan
Elizabeth b1857 d? Married Frederick Atkin
Nicholas b1859 d1931 Married Sarah Jane Shepley
James b1863 d? Married Ellen Hagan
Agnes b1865 d? Married Albert Eaton
Margaret Doyle Nee' Wood died in 1865.
Henry & Caroline Stringer had from your list:
Mary Ann b1843
Emilia b1844
Mary Ann b1847
Sarah b1850 (Married John Pickering in 1872, Daughter Jane b1873, Husband John died 1873)
Joseph b1853
Edwin b1856 ( I had him down as Edward/Ted on censuses! ;D)
Henrietta b1859 (Was she Ellen? I don't know for sure)
Henrietta was born in March qtr 1859 Manchester reg dist. In the same qtr, year & reg dist there is a death of a Henry Stringer. LancashireBDM website shows both the birth & death to be in the St George sub district of Manchester & Henry to be age 41 at death. When was Henry born? I think that this is more likely than not your Henry's death.
Caroline Doyle (Stringer) died in 1887 aged 62, March qtr in the Prestwich registration district & John Doyle in the same district aged 86 in 1912.
John Doyle & Caroline Stringer's marriage in 1870 appears according once again to the LancashireBDM website as having taken place at Manchester Register Office or was at the very least Registrar attended. I don't have the marriage cert as yet.
Where there are two children of the same name, in this instance Mary Ann b1843 & 1847, would sadly suggest that the earlier Mary Ann died before the second Mary Ann was born. Either that or the second Mary Ann could perhaps be my Mary b1848/49?
Hope this helps, I look forward to hearing from you & if your require any more info, don't hesitate to ask.
Kind regards
David
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Hello David,
Thank you so, so much for getting back to me. I am so happy to have learned more info regarding the Stringers and the Doyles. I can't wait to pass the information along to my extended family members. I have Henry Stringer born in 1819 in Sheffield so the age at his death would be correct. Just a thought on Henrietta, perhaps her middle name was Ellen. On the other side of my family tree we found relatives using their middle names instead of first names. I think you may be correct regarding the Mary Ann's. I have one tree listing b.1843 as the Mary Ann married to Joseph Gibson and I have found it on another tree listed as 1847 being married to Joseph. My cousins tree has both of them listed but Mary Ann 1847 states she was still alive in 1901. We don't have deceased dates for Mary Ann or her husband Joseph. Actually, I just pulled out Mary Ann's marriage cert, they were married in 1868 where it states she was 22. So it is more likely that the 1843 passed and the Mary 1847 is my great grandmother. I'm going to run this info by my family. If I have any added info that could help you I will certainly be in touch. Thanks again, I thought I was helping you but you really helped me.
Warm Regards,
Paula
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Hi Paula,
You are very welcome! ;D
Looks like I may just have found the death record for Mary Ann Stringer b1843 in 1847 on freeBMD website:
Stringer, Mary Ann; June qtr 1847; Manchester registration district; Volume 20 Page 851.
This child on LancashireBMD website has her in the St George sub district (same as the birth for Henrietta & death for Henry) aged 2. She perhaps didn't quite make 3, which would be about right. This has to be her as the only other two possibles in Manchester in 1843 & 1846 were both plain Mary's and were according to LancsBMD aged 44 & 66 years respectively. There are no deaths for Mary/Mary Ann's in Sheffield for this period either!
Here are the full death records for Henry Stringer, Caroline & John Doyle from FreeBMD:
Stringer, Henry; March qtr 1859; Manchester registration district; Volume 8d Page 206
Doyle Caroline; March qtr 1887; Prestwich registration district; Volume 8d Page 247
Doyle John; December qtr 1912; Prestwich registration district; Volume 8d Page 451
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Hi all,
Almost three years since I last posted on this thread, where does the time go! ;D Just updating with progress made, with the recent release of the GRO Index, with mother's maiden surnames etc, I have finally been able to ascertain the correct children of my 3x gt grandparents John T Doyle (1825/26-1912) & Margaret Wood (1826/27-1865). They are as follows (all MMN Wood):
Mary Doyle (1848-1853)
Margaret Doyle (1850-1916) Married Thomas Gibson in 1873. (My 2x gt grandparents)
Elizabeth Doyle (1852-1853)
Elizabeth Doyle (1854-1921) Married Frederick Atkin in 1875.
Matilda Doyle (1856-1934) Married John Richard Morgan in 1891 & married John Ryan in 1906.
Thomas Doyle (1858-1858)
Nicholas Doyle (1859-1931) Married Sarah Jane Shepley in 1884.
Annie Doyle (1861-1862)
Thomas James Doyle (1863-?)
Agnes Doyle (1865-1943) Married Albert Eaton in 1888.
Therefore the children form Caroline's first marriage were:
Sarah Stringer b1850/51
Joseph Stringer b1853
Edwin/Ted Stringer b1855
Henrietta/Ellen Stringer b1859
John & Margaret's son whom I had always thought was called James is actually Thomas James! ::) I am having problems tracking him after 1901, I cannot find him in 1891 either.
What I have is as follows:
1881 Census James is at home with the family at 49, Reather Street, Manchester & is described as a Printer & single. (RG11/3999/107/37)
1901 Census James is living with his father at 1, McCouvier St, Manchester & is described as a Printing Engine Minder & a widower. (RG13/3741/57/27)
There is a marriage of a James Doyle to an Ellen Hagan in 1888, but I believe this to be a different couple. They appear in 1891 with a 1 year old daughter Ann. This James is described as a Railway Carriage Lifter. (RG12/3249/76/24) If he was in the printing trade in 1881 & 1901 you would perhaps expect him to be in the same trade in 1891, or could I be wrong?
There is a possible death for a James/Thomas James in Dec Qtr 1911, Salford reg dist aged 45, Thomas James would have been 48. I believe this death record to be of another James/Thomas James Doyle who from memory was a Schoolmaster or similar in 1891.
I think that James/Thomas James Doyle is with his father John T Doyle in 1891, whom I cannot find either. According to the Manchester Rate Books records on FindMyPast John Doyle was at 88, Reather Street between 1888 & 1893. I cannot seem to find this street on the 1891 or am I doing something wrong?
The 1891 census as regards James/Thomas James is becoming somewhat crucial in tracking him, if only to answer the question, was he married before or after 1891? All other family members are accounted for in 1891.
Can anyone help finding John T & James/Thomas James in 1891 or what happened to James/Thomas James after 1901?
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards
David
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Well,88 Reather in 1891 is at:
RG12/3243/25/4
There is a DOYLE family there but I don't know if it's "yours".
Maureen
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Hi Maureen,
Many thanks for that. Unfortunately definitely not them! Where the devil are they!
According to the Manchester Rate Books records on FindMyPast John Doyle was at 88, Reather Street between 1888 & 1893.
The Doyle's at no 88 between 1888 & 1893 must be this wrong family.
So this must mean that my Doyle's left 49, Reather Street in 1885/86 (Last mentioned in rate books in 1885). Where the devil did they go? This also means that I have absolutely no idea where they (John & Thomas James/James) are between 1886 & 1901! :o
My thanks for your assistance, very much appreciated.
Kind regards
David