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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: hawk64 on Friday 15 March 13 05:16 GMT (UK)
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Seeking descendants of the above or any information, particularly on Mary Ann's side.
She was baptised 10/10/1830 in Stepney.
Father was Henry Thomas Cole, mother Elizabeth (McDonald).
Father abandoned the family in the 1830's - I believe he sailed to Australia
and started a new life.
I have a tiny bit of information on the family in Middlesex but
a lot more on the father's new life.
It's a fascinating story and I'm hoping I have it right.
Thanks
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Hi Hawk64,
They all seem pretty easy to track through the censuses, etc, what exactly are you looking for?
Jo :)
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Hi Jo
Well, it's my belief that Henry Thomas Cole was actually born William Cole and that's the name he used after he left his family and went to Australia. Why he used the name Henry Thomas at his marriage is beyond me.
I'm really trying to confirm that there is no birth/baptism or death record for Henry Thomas Cole.
I was wondering if any descendant of the family knew more.
Plus they might like to know they have relatives in Australia now as William had children here as well.
Thanks
hawk64
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Hi Hawk64,
When and where do you think Henry or William was born? What year did he leave for Australia?
Cheers, Jo :)
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Marriages Sep 1852
COLE Mary Ann Stepney 1c 918
Meredith Samuel Driver Stepney 1c 918
Married at St Anne's Limehouse on 9th Sept 1852.
The marriage cert has her father as Henry Thomas Cole a Master mariner.
Amongst the witnesses was a Charles Cole (poss brother) and Susan Blessitt who Mary Ann is with in 1851 in Stoke Newington.
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Henry Thomas Cole and Elizabeth McDonald, both single, were married on 25th Jan 1819 at St Botolph's Aldgate.Likely they were born around the turn of the century.
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In 1841 they are at Copenhagen Place Limehouse.
Elizabeth Cole 40 shirt maker, all born in county of Middx
Charles Cole 15 App(rentice) Sailor
Mary 11
John 9
Elizabeth 7
William 5
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There is a chap on-line who appears to be in Wales researching this tree.
Jennifer
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The following were baptised as children of Henry Thomas Cole & Elizabeth:
Henry Thomas b 29 Oct 1819/bap 28 Jan 1821 - Limehouse St Ann - mariner of Limehouse
Elizabeth 15 Aug 1823/31 Aug 1823 - 182 High St, Corn Dealer - Shadwell St Paul
Elizabeth Jane 14 Apr /26 Jun 1832 - Limehouse, mariner - Limehouse St Ann
John Silas 29 Aug 1830/26 Sept 1830 - Limehouse, mariner - Limehouse St Ann
William 3 Oct 1835/21 Feb 1836 - Salters Place, mariner - St George in The East
Charles Colet 6 Oct 1821/4 Nov 1821 of M.E.O.T., mariner - Stepney St Dunstans & All Saints
Edward James bap 10 Oct 1830 - of Ratcliff, mariner - Stepney St Dunstans &All Saints
Mary Ann - ditto as Edward James.
Elizabeth 1823 doesn't fit or indicates another Henry Thomas Cole. & Elizabeth around at the time.
Three children baptised within a month in 1830? A big gap between first two and the rest?
What makes you sure that your William is Henry Thomas?
Jo
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Hi and many thanks to all who replied,
William Cole was baptised on 3/7/1803 in Bermondsey.
What makes me nervous about this is that if he is Henry Thomas, he's kind of young when he
married Elizabeth McDonald.
Captain William Cole, master mariner, appears in Australia in July of 1834 when he marries an older widow in Sydney. Her husband was allegedly murdered six months earlier.
William then disappears from records for a year, before he returns to take over a publican's licence from his Sydney wife. This missing year would enable him to return to England to see his wife and ''start the process'' for his last son, William.
Upon his return to Australia, he built up quite a property portfolio, lost his wife then had three children in a de facto relationship with an ancestor of mine. He died in 1856.
Now this all sounds a bit hairy to you but here's something interesting. I found a letter in the City of Sydney Archives written by John Silas Cole. It was written in 1867. John Silas lived in San Francisco at the time and advised that he was looking for his father's will. He writes that his father had abandoned the family in the 1830s and had come to Sydney to run a pub. John mentions that he was once a mariner and he had visited his father at this pub in 1852, to discuss family matters and William told him he would complete a will.
John states that his father's name was Captain William Henry Thomas Cole.
I would be interested in your opinions and thanks again for your replies
hawk64
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Hi Hawks64,
Well I think the letter from John Silas confirms that you have the right man and family but I would certainly be wary of the baptism given, I agree that he is too young. There are too many baptisms with the variations of Henry, William, Thomas etc in the time frame you have. So. Any idea of his parents names, fathers occupations, siblings, name of any of the ships he sailed on, etc, to help narrow down the search?
Cheers, Jo :)
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John Silas Cole married Harriet Hartshorne at St Thomas Stepney on 9 March 1862.
Both of Full age and both single,both of Stepney he was a mariner.
HIs father was Henry Thomas Cole also a mariner.
Her father was William Anthony Hartshorne a builder.
Witnesses are very diffcult to read but I think they say Samuel Driver Meredith and Elizabeth Jane Tratt or Trait.
Everyone signed.
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Elizabeth Jane Cole married Fortune Henry Tratt on Epiphiny! 1859 ay St George in the East Tower hamlets.
Both of full age both single,he too was a mariner :D both of 28 Tarling Street,his dad Henry Tratt a shoemaker, hers is Henry Thomas Cole master mariner.
Witnesses Abrahm Grant and Susannah Blessitt (again)
Everyone signed.
Carol
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EDward James Cole married Jane Elizabeth Cooper both of full age, both widowed,on 14th Dec 1868 at St James the Great Bethnal Green ,guess what job he did LOL yep he was a mariner. They give their address as 3 and a half Essex Street.
His father was Henry Thomas Cole master mariner and hers John Harman or Hasman decd.
Witnesses Henry Archer and Something Emma Parker (can't read her first name)
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Edward's first marriage appears to be on 3rd June 1851 to Martha Alsop at St Dunstan and All Saints Stepney,both of full age,both single,he was a mariner(again!)
His father Henry Thomas Cole master mariner, hers Richard Alsop gardener.
Witnesses Mary Ann Cole and Daniel A Connell who made his mark,as did the bride.
Both the Cole's signed.
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1861 census at 23 Featherstone Buildings Limehouse.
Elizabeth calls herself a widow,maybe she was maybe she just considerd herself to be one if hubby did not return from Oz?
Elizabeth Cole 61 head widow b Middlesex
John Cole 31 son unm seaman in the merchant navy b Stepney
Elizabeth Tratt 28 dau needlewoman b Stepney
William Cole 23 son unm farrier b Stepney
RG9/289 Folio 85 Page 15
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Elizabeth Jane Tratt died age 69 in 1902 in Foster Victoria Australia.
Her parent s are given as Henry Thomas Cole and Elizabeth McDonald
So the family did go backwards and forwards to Oz then ;)
Here's her passage to Australia in 1863
Elizabeth Tratt age 30 sailed on the Light Brigade arriving at Brisbane on 18 May 1863
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Hi folks
Thanks to all again - you've supplied some info I didn't have on the rest of the family.
Jo, to answer your question, I don't have a lot. William Cole's death certificate states that his father was John Cole who was a cooper and his mother was Elizabeth Perkins. This information was supplied by his nephew, ironically named William Cole Ashton. William Cole's sister, Susannah Ashton, and her family had arrived in Australia in 1850. The death certificate information agrees with the baptism record of 1803.
In 1841, he advertised, with another man, for passengers or freight on a schooner called 'Sally'. There is also an unnamed boat mentioned in his will. That's the only references I can find to ships names.
Elizabeth (Cole) Tratt arrived separately to her husband, Fortune. He also died in Foster, Victoria in 1900. His death certificate states that he spent 1.5 years in Queensland, 6 years in NSW and 40 years in Victoria. I wondered if he was looking for Mr Cole. If so, he would have been disappointed - Cole was dead before Fortune arrived.
John Silas appears to have lived out his life in San Francisco, appearing on the 1900 US census. Strangely, throughout the years in US census records, his wife's name is listed as Mary and she was born in Ireland.
William Cole was quite wealthy when he died. Some of the houses he owned still stand today in a popular area of Sydney City. They command million dollar pricetags when they are sold. Strangely, considering the wealth of the man and the fact that his tenants included soon-to-be Premiers, Cole does not appear to have mingled in high society. I wondered if that was because he was worried of being found out.
Once again folks, I thank you and I look forward to your opinions
hawk64
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John Cole, bachelor married Elizabeth Perkins, BOTP, Horselydown St John, by banns, 20 Aug 1799, John signed, Elizabeth by mark, witnessed by Andrew Newland & Sarah Cole,
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Both baptised on the 3 Jul 1803, St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, to John & Elizabeth Cole, Cooper, Staples Court
Susannah Sarah Cole born 20 Oct 1800
William Cole born 6 Apr 1803
A shame they weren't the other way around, but that has to him, you can't fit another birth in there really.
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William Cole's details are fairly easy to find but I haven't found any birth/baptism or death for Henry Thomas Cole. This, of course, is good as it makes my theory more believeable.
Everything fits. But the cruncher is that he must have been about 16 when he married Ms McDonald. How likely or possible is that?
Any thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated.
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William Cole's details are fairly easy to find but I haven't found any birth/baptism or death for Henry Thomas Cole. This, of course, is good as it makes my theory more believeable.
Everything fits. But the cruncher is that he must have been about 16 when he married Ms McDonald. How likely or possible is that?
Any thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated.
There is nothing on the marriage entry that says he was a minor (aged under 21) he would have needed parental permission to marry and his father would have had to sign the marriage index to say that he approved it.
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That's a very valid point.
Going by census records, Elizabeth McDonald was born around 1800/01. So she is only 18 or 19 at the time of marriage. Would she have been considered a minor? There's no parental permission for her, either.
And before I head off to bed, let me run this by you. There's no risk William Cole was 16 in 1819.
But William Cole didn't marry Elizabeth - Henry Thomas Cole did. Is age the reason he married under another name? Just trying to think outside the square.
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I have received a death certificate for a Elizabeth Cole. She died on 30/9/1869 at the Stepney Union Workhouse.
The Elizabeth Cole I have been chasing appears on the 1861 census, but nothing after that.
It states that she was 68, which tallies with the census information that she was born around 1800.
The best part is that also states that she is the widow of William Cole, seaman. The Elizabeth Cole I am chasing was married to a Henry Thomas Cole, who I believe changed his name to William in Australia.
I understand these names are common but I have a scenario where everything seems to tally - apart from them both being underage at the time of the marriage bann.
The question I would like to ask you folks with more skill in this field than me -
the banns of Henry Thomas Cole and Elizabeth McDonald were dated 25/1/1819 at Aldgate -
but did they actually marry?
Any thoughts or suggestions would, as always, be appreciated.
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Hi Hawk64,
It is their actual marriage on the 25 Jan 9 at St Boltoph.
Married by banns on that date, Henry Thomas Cole, bachelor and Elizabeth McDonald, BOTP, the with consent of their parents part is crossed out, it wouldn't have been if they were known to be underage. Both signed their names and I'm sorry, but I can't decipher the witness names. There banns would have been read for the three weeks prior to their wedding date.
Jo :)
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Thank you for that.
Elizabeth, going by census records, must have been under 21 when she married. I believe Cole was, too, and marrying under a different name.
How easy/difficult would it have been for them to 'get away'with their underage marriage?
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We're their parents alive a the time of their marriage?
Jo
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Witnesses look like Robert Sutherland & Mary Boots.
Jennifer
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Unfortunately I don't know if the parents were alive for Cole and I don't know who they were for Elizabeth. Not very helpful, I guess.
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Hello Hawk64, a little late but here goes. I believe I am a direct descendent of Henry Thomas Cole via his daughter Mary Ann born 1828, then via Samuel Driver Meredith (Limehouse), John Silas Cole Meredith (Limehouse), Mabel Rose Meredith (Holborn, probably Stoke Newington) then my dad (Otago, New Zealand).
You've opened a can of worms for me because Henry Thomas seems to appear out of thin air around the time of his marriage, if his name was William then that answers a few things.
For me, things get doubly complicated because my mum was from Limehouse too, her grandmother was a Cole and her 3rd great grandfather was called Henry. Both Henry Coles have Bethnal Green addresses at various times so you start wondering if you are related to yourself in the way of the Royal Family :-) I'm now certain they a different people and I cannot make a family connection so we can put me being a bit inbred to one side.
I can only tell you what happened to the descendants of Mary Ann Cole as far as John Silas Cole Meredith lived 1869 - 1940 died in Stoke Newington London, his daughter Mabel Rose married a Kiwi in 1916, I think he was a seaman, his name was Francis J L Jones and they had a son called Donald James Jones. Mabel and Donald sailed for NZ in 1919 on the HMT Kigoma. Something happened on the way according to my dad, she got on to the ship as Mrs. Jones and got off Mrs. Thomson the wife of my granddad the Bosun. She had three more kids by my granddad in Otago. She committed suicide in 1943 aged 47. I also knew Albert Meredith (1908) the son of John Silas Cole Meredith as a kid. He lived in Princess May Rd, Stoke Newington.
Francis Jones died in Christchurch in 1966 and Donald died in Palmerston North in the 90s. Hope that this is of interest to you.
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Hello KiwiCockney - welcome to Rootschat. Hawk64 hasn't been online since 2015, but may still be notified of your response.
However, someone else is interested in Samuel Driver Meredith, and I have notified them of your response here.
This is the link to the other thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=775513.msg6291443#msg6291443
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Hi all,
Yes, luckily Rootschat did inform me of the message and I am back.
KiwiCockney, thanks for writing. I have done quite a bit of research since my last message and while I can't categorically prove it, there is little doubt in my mind that William Cole and Henry Thomas Cole are the same man.
I composed a timeline of events for the Henry Thomas and Elizabeth Cole family and found that when there were gaps between children's births, William Cole was active in Australia. William disappears from the records for a year in Australia - not long after, Henry Thomas and Elizabeth have another child - coincidentally named William.
I have yet been unable to find any record of Henry Thomas being born or dying.
Elizabeth's death registration had her husband recorded as William.
In the letter I have a copy of which is written by John Silas Cole (who your ancestor must have named her son after) he gives a date when his father - who he names as William Henry Thomas Cole - abandoned the family in England. This corresponds with the time that William set up business in Sydney, Australia.
In another coincidence, John Silas Cole did marry a Harriet Hartshorne in England. Less, than a year later he married an Irish woman named in Mary in San Francisco. He appears to have lived out his life in California, dying in the early 1900s. I did find a later reference to a Harriet Cole, working as a servant. It appears that John Silas Cole did the same thing as his father - abandoned his wife and moved to another country.
I guess it doesn't help your research much but it is a fascinating story. It is one that I am looking at writing a book on. Where do I fit in? After William Cole's Australian wife died, he entered a de facto relationship with one of my ancestors and had several children. And I guess that means that if my Cole theory is right, you have a lot of half-relations in Australia.
All the best and thanks for writing.
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Hello Hawk64 .. Thanks so much for the information. You may be interested to know that our family continue to flit back and forth between England and Australia and New Zealand. I live near Bath and my son is in Perth WA. My dad was born in South Island but ran away to sea at around 14 turning up in London in 1948. I recently was contacted a set of 1st cousins who live in various small towns around the Abel Tasman National park in South Island. I'd guess they'd be 6th or 7th cousins to you. Take good care and good luck. John
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Hi, I have been researching Samuel Driver Meredith, if they are one and the same he was my grandfathers brother. I haven't had time to take in what has been posted yet. I would like to get involved to see if we can put it together.
Waiting with excitement Antsar.
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Welcome to RootsChat Antsar,
Hawk64 has been notified of your new reply, hopefully he will reply very soon.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi Kiwicockney. I am desperate to get in touch with you, with regard to John Silas Cole Meredith. He was my grandfathers brother. I am not very good with these sights if you get this please contact me.
Hope to speak to you antsar ( Dave Murray)
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Hello Dave, sorry I haven't been on Rootschat lately nor doing any genealogy research. The App just emailed me to say that you were trying to get in touch.
If I can help you with John Silas Cole Meredith let me know. I do not know much other that he was my Great Grandfather. His daughter Mabel Rose was my paternal Grandmother. She died in 1943 before I was born in Otago, New Zealand. I knew his son Bert when I was a child. He lived in Prices May Road, Stoke Newington.
Cheers John
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Hi John, thanks for getting back. Please e-mail me I'm having trouble.
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Hi Antsar,
I'm also a descendant of Driver and Meredith. - KiwiCockney's kin in fact.
What was your grandfather's name? I saw your post on another site and since I didn't care to pay for the subscription, KiwiCockney told me how to find you.