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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Iain... on Wednesday 10 April 13 16:32 BST (UK)
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Hi All !
Thanks to Casalguidi and others, I discovered an amazing 1&2xG family of Canterbury Hawkers, Chair-Bottomers and Organ Grinders..., who, in any life-style comparison could render Oliver Twist’s London a veritable Club Med.
http://www.machadoink.com/Fortunes%20Passage.htm
At the time, it’s no wonder why many pure-blood Britons had to buy a mobile-home (four wheels and a horse) to find fresh air and water in order for them to distance themselves from the cholera infected Stour River sewer.
Anyway, Fortune’s Passage and the 1891 census to one side, it’s their 1871 workhouse census at Deal that interests me for the time being.
In fact, I’m trying to find my 2xG Emma Lees’ parents the hard way, because I seem to be having little “eye-contact” with http://www.gro.gov.uk due to their websites' idiosyncrasies !! (third time still unlucky)
Emma Lee abt1838, Bridge, Kent.
Edward Gimber abt1834, Deal, Kent.
Married 3 March 1857..., Deal, (St. Andrews) Kent.
(note: Casalguidi once winked at a “Gypsy Lee” connection here; lol)
Log in to Ancestry before clicking the URL... http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/33342780/person/18949527884
In the 1871 census, we see a list of workhouse lodgers. Edward, Emma Lee and family are mentioned as being hawker/dealers..., and a little way down the list we find another family of Lees. (no smoke without fire, especially under the same roof)
On my tree, I’ve placed a provisional “unknown Lee” as a father, simply in order to allow for a brother called Thomas Durban Lee abt1841.
Now, this Thomas Durban Lee can be found in other Ancestry trees full of solicitors, but as one of them is mentioned as going bankrupt, this could have pushed this particular part of the family to a workhouse environment. But as you will all say time and time again, (and in particular Casalguidi) ..., this is obviously a coincidence !
Nonetheless, if Thomas and Emma are siblings, this’ll provide me with her parents.
Thanks all ! ...., Iain. ;)
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Workhouse ??? :o :o ............. it is the "Norfolk Arms Inn" ............. a pub!!
From the list of "lodgers";
David and Phoebe SIMPSON
Edward and Emma (nee LEE) GIMBER
Thomas and Tilda LEE
Emma and Thomas LEE are most likely siblings and the children of Jethro LEE and Charlotte .......... they are Gypsies/Travellers and there's no deviating away from that ;)
Edward GIMBER married Emma LEE at Deal St Andrew 3 Mar 1857 (from the Ted Wildy Marriage Witness Index for Kent which I can no longer find online)
If you look at the 1861 census for Deal (I assume you have access?), you will see:
John and Patience (nee LEE) PENFOLD
Edward and Emma (nee LEE) GIMBER
David and Phoebe SIMPSON
John and Lily (this should read Liddy/Lydia nee LEE) ROSSITER
William and Elizabeth GIMBER
Thomas and Tilder LEE
Those in bold at least are likely siblings and the children of Jethro LEE and Charlotte.
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks Casalguidi..., you’re always a hive of information. ;)
I’m pleased for them it was a pub ! Lol ! For me too..., as I couldn’t find very much relating to a workhouse !
http://www.dover-kent.com/Norfolk-Arms-Deal.html
Is this the URL you couldn’t find ?
http://www.kent-opc.org/Parishes/Deal.html
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0NaKsqZJth8J:www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl%3Findex%3D131319%26calln%3D4%26lastq%3D%26doc0%3D0%26query%3DAndrews%26psel%3Dall%26opt%3DANY%26search%3DSearch%2BLibrary+%22emma+lee%22+%22edward+gimber%22&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=be
Thomas “Durban” LEE is down on an Ancestry tree of solicitors and this Thomas has a christening as follows: 1841 22 Nov Deal, Kent, England. Indexing project (batch) number: I00516-4 system origin: England-ODM source film number: 1786328.
But she added “my” 1871 census to her Thomas LEE..., obviously an error ! (Durban being the mother’s name) Hence the confusion !
Casalguidi..., thanks again for providing me with my 3xG grandpa Jethro. :)
Have a nice day..., Iain.
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Hello Iain
Can't be a lot of help but I can confirm some of your findings from the Parish records.
3/3/1857 Edward GIMBER (20) Labourer of West Street, Deal, son of Thomas GIMBER, Labourer
married Emma LEE (19) of West Street, Deal, daughter of Jethro LEE, Labourer
Witnesses: Richard FAGG, George LOWNDS
This wedding was at St Andrew's Church, built on the site of the old Workhouse. It was not the Norfolk Arms Inn. Jethro is recorded as Emma's father and Casalguidi has found that Jethro was married to Charlotte.
Edward & Emma had 3 children baptised in Deal, all at St Andrew's and whilst living at 15, West Street.
He was a Labourer.
30/11/1866 Charlotte
9/7/1868 Betsey
28/6/1871 Edward James
Thomas Durban LEE was baptised 22/11/1841 at St Leonard's son of Robert Paramour & Mary LEE. Robert was a Solicitor living in Middle Street and is not recorded as having any other children baptised in Deal or Walmer. It is possible but not likely that he is connected with Emma.
Regards
AJ
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Yes, http://www.genealogybuff.com/misc/ukmarwit/ukwitken1.htm was the source of the marriage thankyou :)
I see AJ has provided details for the marriage of Emma LEE - brilliant :D
Casalguidi :)
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AJ..., very kind of you ! Both ! This post has provided me with a lot to build on and certainly tidied up a few of misunderstandings. Pleased there was a workhouse somewhere along the line ! Lol !
These two, they just can’t seem to stay away from them..., even in the 91 census they’re living in Fortune’s Passage, “next door” to the Old Priest’s Hospital.
Can’t afford it yet but one day I’d like to buy a decent motor-home, “cos I’m sure it’s in the genes.” Lol !
Thanks..., both of you ! ..., Iain. ;)
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Casalguidi, AJ..., Hi ! Just a quick mention that I found the baptism details of Jethro’s son Thomas on http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gypsy/gypsyc.htm
Lee Thomas, Jethro, Charlotte 15 Oct 1837 Canterbury
25° in the shade here, first time in 12 months..., lol ! Nonetheless, before venturing out, I must look at the other pages because there seems to be some very familiar names there !
Thanks again..., Iain. ;)
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Well done for finding that Iain.
There seems to ba another child to Jethro and Emma further up the page. Emma baptised 19 April 1841 at Gilllingham. Hopefully another branch in your family tree.
Kind regards
AJ
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The 1851 Census (ref HO107 1632 861 9) has a Jethro (54) and Charlotte (51) at Lydden.
Dover Express, 2 Jun 1871
ASHFORD - Working a crippled horse
Jethro Lee hawker, of Lydden, unmistakably a member of the gipsy tribe....."
In the item he is described as "old Lee"
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AJ..., thanks ! In fact, according to what I’ve found so far, (and more especially, from what I’ve received here on RootsChat) he has...
1. Lydia (Lily Liddy) Lee 1827 –
2. Patience Lee 1827 –
3. Thomas Jethro Lee 1837 –
4. EMMA LEE 1838 – 1901
5. Alfred Lee 1843 –
6. A wife called Charlotte b1880 (she was obviously extremely beautiful and loved chocolate)
7. And a possible father called William, b1770)
Emma’s my 2xG and she married Edward Gimber, b1834. They, had another Emma b1863 and she married James Wood, b1859. I’m Iain Wood... http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3994/scotsguards.jpg ..., lol..., my kilt looks as if it distances itself from Kent; nonetheless, I was born in Folkestone. Plus..., 10 years Changing the Guard at the Palace pushes me back more and more to my Canterbury and Deal roots. Lol.
Hanes ! Wonderful ! Being recently diagnosed by my psychiatrist as “genealogically smitten,” ;) it’s absolutely wonderful to be given his nick-name.
Now..., much as I dislike the idea of trespassing the no-mans-land of trade secrets, I surfed your findings to discover very little. Where does this type of info come from. Lol !
Learning..., perhaps one day I’d be able to join the Roots-Chat specialists and advise..., instead of continually asking for help.
Thanks all..., Iain.
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Hey there. I'm the person who Ancestry tree is referred to in this post :(
Thomas Durban Lee WAS born 1841 in Deal, Kent. For what ever reason his family had moved there and were listed in residence in Deal, Kent prior to Thomas's birth. NO I am not confused about his name and am fully aware that his mothers maiden name was Durban, hence Thomas's middle name... as some of his other siblings
I am leaving the 1871 Census in place for my Thomas Lee as it does have him listed as being born in Deal, Kent, & I have not been able to find any other fitting these details. If I am able to find any document which disprove this then I will remove the census, but until then it remains. I have not been able to find any marriage record for Thomas and Tilda
Thomas Durban Lee
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 22 November 1841 Deal, Kent, England
father: Robert Paramuer Lee
mother: Mary Lee
Thomas Durban Lee
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 22 November 1841 Deal, Kent, England
residence: Kent, England
father: Robert Paramuer Lee
mother: Mary Lee
Thomas Lee
Boarder
England and Wales Census, 1871
birth: 1841 Deal, Kent
residence: 1871 Deal, Deal, Kent, England
other: George F Weaver, Mary Ann Weaver, Ellen L Weaver, Wm Baker, Rich C Carrick, John Fairplay...
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Found another one from my parish records:
Baptised at Great Mongeham Church 31 Oct 1824 Mary Ann LEE d/o Jethro & Charlotte A Tramp
Sorry about the description, I copied what the Rector wrote. Anyway, it's an addition to your tree.
Regards
AJ
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Don't know if I have missed something when reading this post but I presume this is the birth reg you are referring to
Thomas Durban Lee
Dec qtr 1841
Reg District Eastry
Vol5 Page 123
and possibly his death :-\
Thomas Durban Lee
Sep qtr1842
Reg District Thanet
Vol 5 Page 351
Burial states he was an infant
Rosie
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Rosie, thanks for that... where did you find it? I have been looking on online records via Ancestry and using Family Search & Genuki etc? I need to see it. Thanks again
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The details for him on my previous post where from Family Search, and he was born in Deal, Kent. Cheers (funny no death was coming up?)
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Freebmd and Ancestry have his birth and death registration entries. The free index on findmypast shows his burial.
Rosie
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Rosie thanks again I will update the profile when I get the chance... fell like i'm working 24/7 at mo
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To add a bit of detail to Rosie's reply, Thomas Durban LEE was baptised at St Leonard's Church, Deal on 22nd Nov 1841, son of Robert Paramour & Mary LEE. He was a Solicitor of Queen Street, Deal.
The records show Estry because Deal comes under Eastry Registration District.
Regards
AJ
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Thanks AJ, I know who his parents were and that his father was a solicitor. The records online don't show the church he was Christened in though... which record did you find that on & is it online?
Cheers
Jen
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Records for east Kent parishes (including images of the registers) can be found on Findmypast. You may have free access through your local library.
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I think I've been on FindMyPast before but have to pay for each record I find?? I have got a lot of documents from archive.org ... digitized books of parish records when I've been lucky to find them for other ancestors. this lee family has been difficult, too common a name, lucky if they have a distinctive middle name like Durban... but how name records include these when you're looking...
Not looked at my Lee side for ages, just someone was asking about it the other day which got me looking again... hence I found this thread...upside here is you have solved a mystery for me
Ian, sorry to have highjacked your thread here, but at least I'm not displaying 'your' 1871 census on Thomas Durban lee... poor little fella died at 1 yrs... happened so often them :'(
Cheers and thank you :)
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Thanks AJ, I know who his parents were and that his father was a solicitor. The records online don't show the church he was Christened in though... which record did you find that on & is it online?
Cheers
Jen
Hello Jen
I got his baptism from the parish records of which I have copies for Deal, Walmer, Sholden and some of Great Mongeham (work in progress). If you want anything looked up I'd be happy to do it.
Regards
AJ
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Hey AJ! I feel bad as I've hijacked Ian's post here... I've started a new thread of my own here
"Robert Paramor Lee (1806-1890) line Sandwich, Kent" ... with a couple of questions for you :)
Ian good luck with you searches!
Cheers
Jen
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Hello Jen
Terribly sorry but I don't have the records for Sandwich, only Deal & Walmer. I read your other post and saw you were wondering about moving between churches - people did, there was no rule saying they had to attend one particular church, though it was usual to attend the one in their own parish.
I'm sorry I can't be of help on this one
Regards
AJ
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Hi AJ thanks for your help anyway. I'll have to see what I can find on archive.org when I have time, not looked at my tree in months, Cheers
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hi jethro lee was my 4th great grand father his son thomas had a daughter patience who was my 2nd great grandmother,i have a family photo of her,i cant find much about jethros siblings apart from he had a brother neptune who died as a baby,has anyone got any info on jethros siblings,i do have quite a bit of info but i would love to know more about him thanks