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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: red3 on Sunday 14 April 13 22:58 BST (UK)
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I am unable to get to the Archives myself and wondered if some kind person would look this up for me.
looking for a divorce of:
George and Hyde THORNE-GEORGE (They married Dec 1905)
Sometime in the 1920's. (I think) It is not listed online.
They lived in Napier NZ.
have family details thanks just divorce look up.
Thanking you Red3.
May be in this record
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewRelatedEntities.do?code=6047&relatedEntity=Item
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As an aside, they had a daughter that died in the Napier Earthquake, 3rd February 1931.
* Thorne-George, Nancie/Nancy aged 24, Nurse at Napier Hospital Nurses' Home
- daughter of George THORNE-GEORGE & Tottie Hyde PHILIPS
Ah, see there was a previous thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=629544.0
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Hi Red3,
It might pay to change the title location to Wellington. Auckland don't hold the Napier files.
Cheers
KHP
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Thank you have changed title.
Just the divorce look up thanks have family details.
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Hello...
You may want to read the following NZ Archives Research Guide, especially the bit that says "the place where divorce proceedings occurred is not always easy to determine"
http://archives.govt.nz/research/guides/personal-identity#divorce (http://archives.govt.nz/research/guides/personal-identity#divorce)
Any info you can give concerning locations pre and post divorce might be helpful but it still looks like the looker-upper is going to have to slog through a Divorce Register or two. Hopefully the entries are in alphabetical order.
Regards
Beg
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??? mmmm tricky
I know they lived in Napier and their last child was born in 1913.
Hyde moved back to Auckland at somestage.
George remarried 1931 and stayed in Napier. (have his marriage details)
So where the divorce was filed I do not know. Can see that tracking this down is not so simple!! :P
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Hi again...
You may as well make the obvious first step and modify your original post to include the following link. You might get lucky and find that all of the proceedings occured in Napier.
Napier Supreme/High Court
Divorce Registers 1869-1981
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewRelatedEntities.do?code=6047&relatedEntity=Item (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewRelatedEntities.do?code=6047&relatedEntity=Item)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Thanks for that
Have pasted it to the top.
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Hi Red3
I'm guessing that you don't have a copy of the 1905 marriage record (certificate) ?
The date of the Decree Absolute will be endorsed on that document. [It's usually in the form of a (rubber) stamp, with the date added. ]
~ Lu
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George remarried 1931 and stayed in Napier. (have his marriage details)
Hi ... do you have this 1931 marriage certificate (or printout) ?
Likewise, the date (or if not, then at least the year) of divorce, should be included in George's details.
~ Lu
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Hi again
Should also point out that NZ records show that both the 1905 and 1931 marriages, were registered with the surname, GEORGE (rather than with the hyphenated Thorne-George.)
1905
PHILIPS - Tottie Hyde [NZSG Marriages CD shows forename as "Lottie" ]
GEORGE - George Thorne
1931
GEORGE - George Thorne
KROGH - Helen Susan
~ Lu
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Any info you can give concerning locations pre and post divorce might be helpful but it still looks like the looker-upper is going to have to slog through a Divorce Register or two. Hopefully the entries are in alphabetical order.
The Divorce registers are in alphabetical order of surname.
I'm not able to do this look-up for you, but if I were, (and the year of divorce was not known), then I'd commence at 1931 and work backwards. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy
Thank you for your advice.
Always learning.
The surname is "Thorne-George" It's one of those surnames which is offen mixed up.
Regards Red3
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Hi Lucy
Thank you for your advice.
Always learning.
The surname is "Thorne-George" It's one of those surnames which is offen mixed up.
Regards Red3
Hi again Red3
You didn't mention whether you had the actual certificates (or printouts) for the 1905 and 1931 marriages ?
Yes, I can see that the births of three children to Hyde and George, were registered as "Thorne George" ... but do you have official documentation which shows both of those marriages were also in the name of "Thorne George" ??
Maybe I've missed something ? I'm only going by what I can see on the NZ BDM online Marriage Index and the NZSG Marriages CD - both of which indicate the two marriages were registered under the surname of GEORGE.
As has already been intimated here, the search through the divorce registers could well be a lengthy one for whomever volunteers to undertake this task.
My reason for previously posting "that which is officially recorded in the NZ Marriage Index" - and shows the 1905 marriage listed under the surname of GEORGE, was mainly for the benefit of the volunteer. ;)
Because it will be the 1905 marriage certificate in the surname of GEORGE on which the details of the divorce have been recorded, it seems probable that divorce proceedings were conducted under the surname of GEORGE ?
[But as always, I'm happy to be corrected. ] ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Red2
Don't know whether you've looked at the NZ electoral rolls as yet ?
Hyde and George are both listed under the surname of GEORGE ... but (perhaps interestingly), they don't appear together (at a common address), at all. [And Hyde, listed as (surname) GEORGE - Hyde Thorne, disappears after 1919 ?? Have tried a search just using her forename - but so sign of her after that year. Should note that the rolls for 1922 and 1925 are not amongst those able to be viewed online. ]
The 1919 rolls show the following :
1919 - East Cape - Gisborne
GEORGE - Hyde Thorne - 29 Fox Street, Gisborne - married
1919 - Hawkes Bay - Napier
GEORGE - George Thorne - Corry Avenue - Insurance Manager
In 1928, George is living in Napier :
1928 - Hawkes Bay - Napier
GEORGE - George Thorne - Hawkes Bay Club, Marine Parade - Insurance manager
George's bride-to-be is also in Napier in 1928:
KROGH - Helen Susan - 89 Marine Parade - spinster
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In 1935 - GEORGE, Helen Susan - married, and GEORGE, George Thorne - Insurance Manager are at 100 Marine Parade, Napier. In 1946 Helen Susan GEORGE at same address but now a widow.
From 1954 Helen Susan GEORGE is listed at Napier using the name THORNE GEORGE, Helen Susan.
~ Lu
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I have just found a photo of the Thorn-George family with Sir George Grey,it is not dated but he looks elderly and he died in 1898.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tj2/
Description
Group portrait of Sir George Grey with the Thorne George family including George, Murray, Annie, Seymour Jnr, Zoe, Sydney, Ida, Seymour, Godfrey and Julia
Auckland Region (N.Z.)
Cheers Janette
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Hi Red3,
I'm willing to have a look for this divorce file you're after, and intend to visit Archives on Friday.
It will help narrow my search to one year if you can tell me whether you have either or both of the marriage certificates (1905 and 1931) for George Thorne or THORNE-GEORGE, and if so if they provide a date of divorce for him.
Spades
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Red3 replied to my question by PM.
I have ordered the Divorce Registers for Napier and will view them early next week. :)
Spades
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Thanks Spades
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Hi Red3,
I should explain that the entry in the Divorce register will provide a file reference which I will then have to order to view another day, so please be patient. 8)
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Got it!
You will need to prepare carefully before reading this :) I suggest the following:
1) Large pot of coffee.
2) Chocolate biscuits.
3) Lots of patience.
It took me the best part of 30 minutes to photograph the file and I omitted a few papers discussing legal bumpf that wouldn't add anything to your knowledge.
A copy of the 1905 marriage certificate is included in the file. They divorced in 1926 if I read the file correctly, but I was in a rush.
Can you send me a PM with your email address, please.
Spades
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Images sent.
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Hi Spades Do you still have access to the divorce records for Hyde and George? I am a great grand daughter looking for information on Hyde. Information on George is easy to find as his family history is well documented. However Hyde is an enigma. I have her death certificate and it states her father was Frank Phillips and she was born in Adelaide but no mothers name and I can't find anything about the family in Australia. Can you help? many thanks
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Hi Margot
* Do you have Hyde's approximate year of birth ?
~ Lu
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Information on George is easy to find as his family history is well documented. However Hyde is an enigma. I have her death certificate and it states her father was Frank Phillips and she was born in Adelaide but no mothers name and I can't find anything about the family in Australia. Can you help? many thanks
Hi ... I got an alert to this thread ... but haven't read back over it to refresh my memory. ;)
(Don't know where Hyde died or under what surname ? )
Can tell you though that the spelling of her maiden surname on NZ records, was "PHILIPS" (with one "l") .
There is this Australian birth ???
PHILIPS - Hyde
Born 12 June 1879
North Adelaide, S.A. [Reg'n. district ? ]
Father : Henry James PHILIPS
Mother : Kate MATSON
~ Lu
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Hi Margot ... Welcome to RootsChat. :)
Looks like your reply to my earlier question got posted to another thread on "THORN-GEORGE".
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=629544.msg6347113#msg6347113
But that's okay ;) ... have found it ... and it also answered the question about Hyde's approximate date of birth (c. 1877).
I wouldn't think there were too many girls named "Hyde", and coupled with the details you have from death certificate, the birth at North Adelaide in 1879, looks very promising.
The problem with death information is that it is given by a third party ... and therefore we need to treat it with caution. The informant might not have known precise details for Hyde and she did have a very long life, so that may have complicated what was known or remembered about her. "Frank" may have been a nickname for her father ?? ... or it might be the informant simply got the name confused ?
The best source of information would be the 1905 NZ marriage record ... where both bride and groom gave details of their parents, the occupations of their fathers, (along with details of themselves).
I'll scout around and see what else I can find.
~ Lu
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Hello again Margot
Mmm ... yes, I do think that the girl Hyde PHILIPS born Adelaide 1879 is who you are looking for.
And it seems very likely that she came to New Zealand with her parents.
Doing a search on "henry james philips" turned up a Probate record for him (1896) ... together with his Will which named his wife "Kate PHILIPS" as executrix. (No children were mentioned, but that is not unusual for the era).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9RC-B94X-T?i=124&cc=1865481
So, now some further searching to do. ;D More to come >>
~ Lu
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Hi Lu
That's awesome thank you. The fact that it is Philips with one L might have been hindering me and yes you are correct Frank could have been a nickname. Great to know Kate Matson's name as well. Hyde herself was known as 'Clarky' by her grand children and quite aloof. She lived in hotels around the country after the divorce from George Thorne George and we suppose she was paid her keeping from him until she died. Did you still have any information on the divorce available? Many thanks for your help :)
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Hi Margot ... yes, more to come ... will post shortly.
~ Lu
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This is the death notice for Kate PHILIPS ... dearly loved widow of Commander H.J. PHILIPS. :o
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19170501.2.2.3
There is a Probate file also for Kate ... BUT the batch in which it is supposed to be, is missing. >:( I will need to go searching further in the hope of locating it.
Back soon (need to get dinner on. )
~ Lu
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you're amazing - thank you it means a lot.
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Newspaper marriage notice for Tillie Hyde........
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19060207.2.109.22?query=hyde%20thorne%20george
Minniehaha.
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that's marvellous - thanks minniehaha that also gives me a lead to Capt Philips military service in India. :D
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From this account of the wedding it would appear that the father of the bride was still alive? Maybe the first account was meant to read, late of (as in formerly of) Calcutta?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TO19051230.2.16?query=thorne%20george
Minniehaha.
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that's a great find! I think the author just omitted to say 'the late' Captain Philips. He seems to be carefree with spelling of the names as well as he spells the brides name Phillips (double L). Sounds like Seymour has been in China too which is interesting. :D
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Hi Margot ... sorry wasn't able to get back to this sooner.
I think it would be best to await a reply from spades regarding the divorce file. ;)
But, no, I don't have any details of the divorce which I can help you with.
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About newspaper reporting ... sometimes it's "spot on" with information and other times "terribly error-ridden". The historical newspapers are such a wonderful resource, but we should always attempt to back up with other "facts", what we find in them. ;D
Hyde, I'm guessing, was always known by that forename ??
Interesting ... the newspaper marriage notice names her as "Tillie Hyde" ... NZ BDM has "Tottie Hyde" ... and yet another resource (NZSG Marriages CD), has "Lottie Hyde". ;D
~ Lu
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Here is a link to Purewa Cemetery, Auckland, and the burial details for Henry James PHILIPS (1896) and Kate PHILIPS (1917):
http://www.purewa.co.nz/search/
[Just type in "Philips" in the surname box. ]
~ Lu
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Hi Margot
This is where the name "Frank" PHILIPS comes into play.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBH19020925.2.5
PHILIPS-HARPHAM marriage ... Frank, youngest son of late Captain PHILIPS of Auckland ...
He was Hyde's brother. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi again Margot
Just adding all manner of snippets here, for you. (A bit random, but I'm sure you can sort them out).
This is Hyde's arrival in New Zealand as a wee babe. :)
Passenger List for ss "HERO" - from Melbourne to Sydney - 29 September 1879 :
Saloon Passengers
Mrs PHILIPS
Henry PHILIPS
Oscar - 7 years
Maud - 6 years
Charlotte - 3 years
Frank - 2 years
Hyde - infant, 3 months
In the Remarks column at side of list, there is a bracket drawn encompassing a good number of passengers (saloon / steerage etc.) and including the PHILIPS family, with the words ... "These go on to Auckland."
~ Lu
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... and found this in the Auckland Star - 6 October 1879 ...
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS18791006.2.8
Arrival of the "HERO"
... has ..."Mrs PHILLIPS, infant and five children ... and 6 servants, Master H. PHILLIPS :
That is slightly at odds with the previous list - the Melbourne to Sydney journey ?
I actually think that the "H. PHILIPS" listed under name of "Mrs PHILIPS" is in fact, Henry PHILIPS (husband of Kate) ... because only the children on that passenger list had their ages added. ? [I'll have to go back and re-check if there was also a Master H. PHILIPS ??]
The 6 servants may well have been travelling with the PHILIPS family - they were also listed in the Saloon compartment, directly under the PHILIPS name.
~ Lu
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.. yet another passenger list ... ::)
This is a transcription from the Mariners in Australian Waters, site (and a good example of why it is a sound idea to always check transcribed information with the original source, where possible.) ;D
http://marinersandships.com.au/1879/09/114her.htm
So if you scroll down this list to near end of page, you'll see a "SCAN" button highlighted in red.
Click on this and it will take you to the original passenger list.
I couldn't see "a Master H. PHILLIPS / PHILIPS (only Henry listed under "Mrs PHILIPS" ... but now I think about it, this Henry could be a child aged over 12 years ?? )
Hyde (transcribed as "Hydi" ) and aged as 5 months ? I read that as 3 months .. and we do know she was born on 12 June 1879 at Adelaide.
6 Servants : ?? I can see one > Emily KELLY, servant > listed underneath the PHILIPS family. Then follows > Mr and Mrs THOMSON and their children .. Mary, Minnie, Maggie, May .. etc.
Bah .. trivial stuff ;D ... but it's always nice to have details of how our ancestors "got here".
Usually it's difficult to find detailed passenger lists to NZ, especially out of Sydney.
~ Lu
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... marriage notice for Hyde's brother, Oscar PHILIPS : (He and his brother Frank, married the HARPHAM sisters, Annie and Ethel May. )
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBH18990617.2.5
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:D :o Wow! I am passing this on to my mother (Hyde's granddaughter) who knew nothing of all of this. It is worth a lot to us - thank you so much. Mum and her sister called Hyde 'Clarky'. They didn't see much of her growing up - just occasional visits. Hyde had three children, one daughter killed in the Napier earthquake when she was early 20s, another daughter (my grandmother) who survived the quake but was dug out next to her sister with injuries and a younger brother who never married. You'd think Hyde would have visited her only surviving daughter and grandchildren more often but didn't. She and George Thorne George were divorced and we always heard 'she lived in hotels'. But maybe she lived with her own mother in Parnell. Her death cert says she died in Parnell at 41 St stephens ave. None of us knew about her siblings and Frank!! who was married in Taradale.
I wonder if the divorce documents shed any light on what happened. I notice her death certificate states 'widow' but actually she was divorced years earlier.
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Hyde's Other siblings - Marriages :
Maud PHILIPS - Harold MILLINGTON - Year: 1901
Charlotte PHILIPS - Wilfred CONOLLY - Year: 1917
Henry William Cosby PHILIPS* - Mary Ann McINNES - Year : 1893
[*This Henry was born in India 1863 - I now think he was probably the "Henry" on the passenger list of the "Hero" (Melb. to Sydney 1879) ... he would have been 15 /16 years old at that time.
It's possible too that as the family were moving from Australia to live in NZ, that Henry (Captain) had gone ahead of them ?? ]
~ Lu
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oh yes i agree I think Henry was the eldest son. It mentions that Oscar was the 2nd son of Capt Philips in the marriage notice - so that makes sense and her husband must have gone ahead and met them. :)
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I wonder if the divorce documents shed any light on what happened.
Hi Margot
It seems from a comment made here earlier by spades at the time he photographed the divorce record, that there was a good deal of detail contained therein. ;D
Spades will (or should) get a notification that there is new interest in this particular thread; he's a busy chap, but I'm sure he will reply to your initial question just a soon as he's able.
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[Note: Back in 2013 when the divorce file was photographed and its contents sent on to "Red" who initiated this thread, the file was easily accessed at the Archives NZ office. However, since that year, Archives have added a restriction which means that Divorce records are now required to be 100 years old before their contents can be disclosed. (e.g. Divorce finalised 1926 - record available 2026. ) [I'm not sure if it still applies, but it was possible in bygone days to make application to the Courts to view a file which was still under restriction. ?]
Margot ... do you know "Red", the person who began this thread ?? [Just "yes" or "no" will do - so as not to invade her privacy. ;) ]
We also have here at RootsChat, a "personal messaging" (PM) facility, so if you wish to make an enquiry ... say to "Red" ... or want to exchange email addresses for the purpose of sending family info on to others, it can be done without displaying on this thread.
~ Lu
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No .... but I will try a PM. The information I have already allows a fuller picture of Hyde though and answers a lot of questions. I'm very grateful for that. I once tried to find out where my grandmother went to primary school in Auckland. They lived in St Stephens Ave (with Hyde and George) before the divorce and i think George moved to Napier with the 3 children. I contacted the archives but they couldn't find her name. Her name was Margot Thorne George. It's amazing that my Mum doesn't even know where she went to school. It shows we don't talk enough to our elders!
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Hi ... yes "Red" was last online here back in August this year so she may well pop back to this thread if she receives the automatic notification. ;) [If you click on the "user name" of people here, it takes you to their profile page where you can see when they last visited the RootsChat site. ]
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Just scroll back through this thread and > either here, or on a link given to a previous thread by "Red" > you'll see I gave some electoral information for Hyde and George at various places in Hawkes Bay or Gisborne, I think.
Can you tell me please, what is the surname of Hyde on her death certificate ? It could help with further investigations.
~ Lu
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Can you tell me please, what is the surname of Hyde on her death certificate ? It could help with further investigations.
... sorry ... forget that ... found it as Thorne George (hyphenated). It's just that our NZ BDM indexes on line respond in odd ways when you leave hyphens out or try just inserting the last name of a hyphenated name. Bah ... crazy. ::)
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Hello Margot,
Here is a snippet about Margot Thorne George [1932]......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19321114.2.136.1?query=margot%20thorne%20george
Minniehaha.
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Not sure if you have this? the death notice for the Captain....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH18960704.2.2.2?query=h.%20j.%20phillips
Minniehaha.
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thanks Lucy and Minniehaha. Yes those hyphenated names cause some problems.
The snippet about Margot in Parnell in 1932 is very interesting. That is 2 years before my mother was born. The 'Social Round' were certainly into people private affairs and whereabouts!! a bit like snapchat maps today! Very funny ;D
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"The 'Social Round' were certainly into people private affairs and whereabouts!! a bit like snapchat maps today! Very funny ;D"
Not certain Margot but I think the people themselves advised the newspapers of their doings & whereabouts.
Minniehaha.
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oh yes that makes more sense. Then people could come to visit if you were in town. Not so many telephones around in those days either.
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Margot .. here's a transcription of the Marriage record (India) for the Captain and Kate :
Marriages solemnised at St John's Church (Old Cathedral), Calcutta - 1863 :
7 January 1863
Henry James PHILIPS - of age - bachelor - Occ: Her Majesty's Bengal Pilot Service - Father : Samuel PHILIPS,
to >
Kate MATSON - 19 years of age - spinster - Father: Henry William MATSON
Both bride and groom resident at Calcutta.
Witnesses : Chas. MATSON and R.C. RUTHERFURD
Officiating minister - J. RICHARDS. Chaplain, St John's
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[If you desire copy of any BDM records out of India, they are available at the Find My Past website which a lot of NZ's larger Libraries have in-house free access to. ]
~ Lu
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thats fantastic thank you! :o Interesting to see the witnesses as it shows there could have been connections between the Philips and Thorne George family earlier than the marriage of Hyde and George. As those names come up elsewhere in the family. Great to think of life in the Raj! They had quite an adventurous life really.
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Hi Margot231
I have a treasure trove of information on the Philips family, documents, a small collection of photos etc.
It is a very interesting family. Contact me by PM if intersested.
Regards Red.
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Hi Margot231
I have the divorce file for Hyde, and wills of both Captain Henry and Kate Philips.
Regards
Red.
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Hi Red3
I would love to contact you regarding your finds on the Philips family - in particular Henry William Cosby Philips who was an ancestor of mine. For some reason I can't send PM or use the chat option ... it keeps saying 'error' and to use the post function. I would love to hear from you!
Cheers,
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You'll be able to use the PM function now. Welcome to RootsChat. :)
Trystan
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Oh yay :-)
Thanks so much Trystan!
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Hi Purple 11
Have sent you a personal message
Regards
Red3
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Hi I just stumbled across this thread having googled Henry James Philips - who is my great great grandfather.
I have registered but can't PM. It also seems like the thread may be very old, but Iam interested in info on this family. I descend through the younger Henry (Wlliam Cosby) born 11/11/1863 in Calcutta.
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Hello dogmeatnz
.... Welcome to RootsChat :)
The PM facility here will be available for you to use once you have made three posts on this board.
That is very easily achieved by making two further posts > which need only be as simple as posting say, a "smiley face" emoji in each. :) :)
~ Lu
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Hi Dogmeatnz
I have some information on the Philips family.
Regards
red3
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Thanks red3
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Hi Dogmeat nz
you need to reply one more time so I can PM you
Edit: looks like I can PM you now :)
Message on its way