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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: barbatalice on Friday 24 May 13 10:44 BST (UK)

Title: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: barbatalice on Friday 24 May 13 10:44 BST (UK)
I am looking for the arrival of Charles Douglas JACK (born England c 1858) in Tasmania about 1887.

He was probably accompanied by his wife Alice Rachel nee FORSEY (born 1860) and two children William Douglas (born 1882) and Beatrice (born 1885). 
Their son Alexander JACK died in England Jun Q 1886 and their son Louis JACK was born in Tasmania in 1889.

This leaves a fairly small window for their arrival
Mid-1886 - Dec 1889

But I can't find them.  Tried to find them on Victorian passenger list but no luck there

Barb



Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 25 May 13 08:17 BST (UK)
Hi Barb.
I am not able to help with the arrival I'm sorry, but I searched for a newspaper death notice or obituary for CHARLES JACK, hoping it may contain arrival information.

During the course of the search I read the digitised ww1 record for a son, CHARLES LESLIE JACK, dairyman.

It contains letters from his eldest sister Mrs ALICE DAVIDSON who also calls herself his foster-mother and wishes to be advised of events as Next of Kin.

It seems that after the death of ALICE RACHEL (1906), CHARLES snr in about 1914, left Australia for UK and had not ever been heard of again.  He'd left no forwarding address.

The sad death of ALICE which also holds some family information and which you may already have.
Some of her children would have been quite young at the time of her death.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12814563?searchTerm="Florence jack"&searchLimits=l-title=10

The 1881 census shows CHARLES JACK was a druggist before his immigration.

None of this really addresses your question unfortunately, but may prove of interest.

Sue

ADDING

The will of ALICE which I cannot properly view at the moment says he was a store-keeper in Hobart.

http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=9
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: barbatalice on Monday 27 May 13 01:14 BST (UK)
Hi Sue
Thank you so much for this information.

Alice JACK was not on my list of children for Charles & Alice JACK snr. Have now found her birth in FreeBDM – Jun Q 1881. This means that Charles & Alice JACK snr probably arrived in Tasmania with three children. Alice Louise JACK married Charles Lesley DAVIDSON in 1904 in Tasmania. 

I didn’t know that Charles JACK snr had left Tasmania. The letter from Alice Louise DAVIDSON in Charles Leslie JACK’s service record really narrows this down to about Dec 1913 – Jan 1814.  As yet I haven’t found him on passenger list, either departure from Aust or arrival in the UK

The next of kin for Charles Leslie JACK’s brothers on their WW1 service records are their brothers not their father:
Theodore JACK’s next of kin is his brother William JACK NSW
Victor JACK’s next of kin is his brother Louis JACK NSW

It is possible that Charles JACK snr was in England when the war broke out in April 1914 and was unable to return or communicate with his family.

In one family tree that I found online Charles JACK snr is said to have died in Poplar London Dec Q 1932. But I can’t confirm that.

Thanks to your hints I have found a marriage, which could be Charles JACK snr:
St Faiths Church, Stoke Newington London 4 May 1916

Charles JACK  57 widower baker 74 Coronation? Ave, father William JACK surgical engineer

Isabel Louise BELL 37 widow 74 Coronation? Ave, father Lancelot .... BELL, occupation .... merchant Jamaica?

The details for Charles JACK on the parish register entry match those I have for Charles JACK snr from census records before he left for Tasmania. So I am fairly sure this is the right person.
If this is so then the 1932 death could also be the same person.

There are some sad stories in this family – Alice Rachel JACK’s drowning, Charles Leslie JACK’s gassing in WW1 and Charles JACK snr’s disappearance. As always family history research is far more than BDMs.


Barb
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: jayro2602 on Friday 24 January 14 12:32 GMT (UK)
Hello Barb

You were seeking information about the arrival in Hobart, Tasmania, of Charles Douglas JACK accompanied by wife Alice Rachel (nee Forsey) and children William, Alice and Beatrice (born 3 October 1884). Alexander (aged 2 years) died before the family embarked. They arrived there when Beatrice was six years old, so it was late 1890 or most probably in 1891. I do not know the name of the ship on which they travelled. The reason (so I have been told) for arriving in Hobart rather than Melbourne was that the ship's route was from Perth south-easterly and then around the south and east coasts of Tasmania to reach Melbourne via Hobart. Alice Rachel was apparently so ill from the rough voyage that she refused to board the ship again to go on to Melbourne, so in Hobart the family remained. I believe the original purpose of the travel was to investigate establishing a branch of Boots the chemists in Melbourne.

The children born in Tasmania were Louis Napoleon; Florence; Grace; Theo; Charlie; Victor, and Bobby (born 1900).

Alice Davidson had children of her own including three sons (?more) and a daughter. Beatrice married and had two sons and a daughter. Florence married and had two (?more) sons and a daughter. Bobby and his wife had one son and one daughter. Grace married but did not have children. I don't know any details of the sons and their families residing in New South Wales.

Charles Douglas Jack left Tasmania most likely late in 1914 or early in 1915. He called to see Beatrice and family before departing. That was the last seen or heard of him except it was known that he saw his mother in London at least once during the war years (from a postcard one of the soldier grandsons sent home).

This information may be of interest to you.

Ros
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: barbatalice on Saturday 25 January 14 04:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Ros
You have given me a lot of new information to digest.

Thank you so much for all the interesting family details about Charles Douglas and Alice Rachel.  I have often wondered why they emigrated with three little children and Charles working as a druggist in London. Setting up a BOOTS pharmacy in Melbourne might have been seen as a good career move.

I have slightly earlier possible dates for the family’s arrival in Tasmania - between Jun 1886 - Feb 1889. Here is my reasoning:

The English & Wales FreeBDM has that Alexander JACK was born and died Apr-Jun 1886   http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=76161444&d=bmd_1387820160

According to Aust birth records Louis JACK was born in Tasmania 24 Feb 1889 (reg district Hobart, reg no #687).

However taking into account your comment that Beatrice was said to be six when the family arrived in Tasmania, then an arrival sometime nearer to Feb 1889 would be a better fit – Beatrice would have been about 4 ½.

I wonder if Alice Rachel was ill because she was pregnant with Louis and refused to travel on to Melbourne from Hobart because she didn’t want to give birth in Bass Strait – quite a reasonable concern in my view.

Of course we will probably never know why Charles Douglas JACK went back to England. However it is possible that he wanted to see his mother who eventually died in 1919 I think. I am not sure when his father died.

About the other children of Charles & Alice:
There was a twelfth child Harold (Horace ?) JACK who died in infancy.   
10 Aug 1898 – 26 Jan 1899      Registration district Hobart Tasmania

William Douglas JACK  died in NSW in 1949
Grace JACK (married TODMAN) died in NSW in 1974
Theodore JACK died in NSW in 1965.

Regards
Barb
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: jayro2602 on Saturday 25 January 14 11:03 GMT (UK)
Hello again, Barb

I have checked the notes I have (compiled before computers and online searching) and I think it is quite likely that Beatrice was only just over four years old when the family took ship for Australia. As you say, that would make their arrival in Hobart early in 1889. Like you, I think it is probable that Alice Rachel was near to giving birth in addition to having been dreadfully seasick. No wonder she refused to go back on board ship! Unfortunately I do not have any references to the name of the ship.

My notes did not have any mention of the birth and death of Harold, but from a record from the Linc Tasmania portal there is a reference to his birth in 1898. This record spells Forsey as Forcey and refers to the Marriage/Relationship as 1879 - England.

I have a copy of the marriage certificate of Charles Douglas Jack and Alice Rachel Forsey celebrated on 3 May 1880. If I am reading the writing correctly it gives his rank or profession at that date as Artist. Their ages are given as Full Age.

According to a letter from Uncle Fred Jack to Beatrice dated 2 December 1919, Charles Douglas Jack's mother had died but his whereabouts were not known to any family members in London.

Regards from Ros
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: barbatalice on Monday 27 January 14 04:51 GMT (UK)
Hi Ros
A few more clues about the dates for Charles Douglas JACK’s arrival in Tas and his return to the UK
Arrival:
If the story that the JACK family were bound for Melbourne is true, and also that Alice Rachel was pregnant with Louis when they landed in Tasmania, then they probably arrived in Tasmania between May 1887 – Feb 1888. There can’t be many ships in those months that sailed from England to Melbourne via Hobart. I’m not sure how to get access to the list of ships but some archive will have it.

Departure:
See post #2 in this thread
The letter from Alice Louise DAVIDSON in Charles Leslie JACK’s service record really narrows this down to about Dec 1913 – Jan 1814.  As yet I haven’t found him on passenger list, either departure from Aust or arrival in the UK


I am also fairly convinced that Charles married Isobel Louise BELL in London in 1916.

Regards
Barb

Will post query about Tas shipping lists in this forum


Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: vikky44 on Wednesday 29 January 14 04:12 GMT (UK)
This is the story of the Jack family's arrival in Tasmania as told to me by my Grandmother, Beatrice.  They sailed from England on the White Star liner "COPTIC" in 1888.  My grandmother was born in 1884.  There is no mention of the family on the ships record of the journey of which I have a copy. Charles was to set up a Chemist's shop in Melbourne for the firm he worked for in England.  The Jack family were surgical instrument makers.  When the ship arrived in Hobart, Alice was so ill that she refused to go on to Melbourne.  (There is also another story that the Coptic was late arriving in Hobart and the ship the family was supposed to take to Melbourne had already left without them.) I don't know how true this is as according to the ships record the voyage out was uneventful.  Another thing my grandmother told me was that a young boy fell down one of the companionways and died from his injuries during the voyage.  There is no mention of this on the record.  Tracing Charles Douglas after his departure from Tasmania after Rachel's death has been very difficult but other members of my family think he did return to England and remarry.
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: barbatalice on Wednesday 29 January 14 06:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much vicky44

I did a quick search for the Coptic and found that it arrived in Hobart 9 March 1888 & 27 July 1888.

From Trove and Papers Past (NZ newspapers) I found the following:

Coptic's route was London, Plymouth, Tenerife, Cape Town, Hobart, New Zealand (Wellington I think)
Passengers for other Australian ports transferred to other ships.
On the voyage which arrived 9 March, 20 were bound for Melbourne
On the voyage which arrived 27 July, 19 were bound for Melbourne

There is an interesting description of a voyage of the Coptic in the Mercury (Hobart) , Sat 8 Jul 1893 page 3. From London to New Zealand. Trip of the Coptic. David BLYTHE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13282164.  On that voyage the Coptic followed the same route as the two 1888 voyages.

Re Charles returning to England.
The details for Charles JACK who married Isobel Louise BELL in London in 1916 exactly fit Charles Douglas JACK
widower, 57, father William JACK surgical engineer

I have attached the grooms' signatures from the two marriage registers 1880 and 1916.
Given that they were written 36 years apart, the word Charles looks pretty similar
Perhaps someone has a document with Charles Douglas' signature which could be compared with these

The first attachment can be dragged to see the end of the word JACK

regards
barb



Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: judb on Wednesday 29 January 14 07:02 GMT (UK)
To me, the signatures look very similar.  The later one actually has a curl at the end of the letter 'k' which I cannot get to show on the snippet you have posted. It clearly shows on the full image and is similar to the curl on the Alice marriage certificate.

Judith



Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: barbatalice on Wednesday 29 January 14 07:23 GMT (UK)
Thanks Judith
Missed that final flourish on "K" on the 1880 marriage entry
Here it is

Barb
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: KJack on Tuesday 28 March 17 18:12 BST (UK)
I am the grandaughter of Charles Lesley Jack who was raised by his elder sister Alice following the suicide of his mother. My brother is tracing the family tree and I am begining a historical novel which begins with the suicide of Alice, going back to the participation of the Jack family in the Great Exhibition at Crystal Palace and forward to Alice's raising of the orphaned children. I would be very grateful for any information which may help to make this as factual as possible and in particular any information relating to personality
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: KJack on Friday 21 April 17 17:52 BST (UK)
I am delighted to have found this exchange of information. I am Karen Jack, grand daughter of Charles Leslie. I work in psychiatry and I am writing a novel based on Alice Jack's suicide, keeping as close to the facts as possible. I would be very grateful to make contact with the persons having started the chat on this subject
Title: Re: JACK Charles Douglas arrival Tasmania 1886-89
Post by: sarah on Wednesday 07 June 17 18:00 BST (UK)
Hello Kjack,

Welcome to RootsChat :D

Barb has been sent a notification of your reply here, I am sure she will be delighted to hear from you.

Regards

Sarah