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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: John1935 on Monday 03 June 13 07:19 BST (UK)
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The Ellington family in 1841 consisted of father Henry George, Mother Thomasin and four children, but on the 1841 Census it is only the children that appear ( with other families) at an address of :
Albert street Chester Lane, Bishopwearmouth, Sunderland
The children are :Lavinia 18yrs, Henry 14 yrs, Thomas 9yrs ( who in 1853 married a Joplin ?),
Peter 7yrs.
Father was at that time a Master Mariner, maybe wife had gone with him, leaving the children _ where ???
Cannot find the family on the 1851 Census, or deaths for parents.
Before I was searching Tammy Goodsir ( widow Tillman) - Mother above is Tammy's daughter by first
marriage ( Just found that Tammy had managed to marry her off in 1821 in Exmouth (Devon )to
the Mate of the 'Seaflower' Sunderland, before she (Tammy ) married Thomas Goodsir Master of
the'Transfer' in 1822.
NOTE : For Reference this is a continuation of 'The Goodsir Family ' on Northumberland Site due to the fact that people concerned lived in Sunderland.
So I am searching for any information on Henry George Ellington and Family Please and also your Architect - John Tillman, so see if there was a link between his family and the Devon Tillmans ( have already found ( with a great deal of help from Westoe) quite a bit on his father, all of which is on the Northumberland site.
Best
John
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Hi John
The 1841 Census - this looks liked a blended WILKINSON / ELLINGTON family who are sharing the same dwelling house with the RICHARDSON family who are listed above them.
HO107 - Piece 310 / Book 8 / Folio 7 / Pg10
RICHARDSON family...
/
Francis WILKINSON 45, Shipwright
Thominson WILKINSON 30,
Ann WILKINSON 17
Charles WILKINSON 3
Jane WILKINSON 1
Lavina ELLINGTON 18
Henry ELLINGTON 14
Thomas ELLINGTON 9
Peter ELLINGTON 7
//
Could Thominson be your Thomasina?
Cheers
AMBLY
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1851
Ogden Street, Bishopwearmouth
Francis Wilkinson 65 shipwright bn Durham
Thomasin 45 bn Devon Lymston
Thomas Ellington 20 son in law bn Durham
Charles Ellington 18 son in law bn Durham
Charles Wilkinson 13 son Bn Durham
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Snap, Liz, just typed that one up too - ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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We are on exactly the same track then Ambly! As I got the 'red writing' when I had typed out 1841! I didnt post, but zapped it and typed in 1851 instead!
With Thomasin born Devon, it has to all link up.
But she is not old enough to be mother of the older ones on 1841?
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Thanks you two
Good at least it was not the workhouse ! but abit confused, have Thomasin's b. 1803 and yes Lympstone was the place ( just up the rver Exe from Exmouth), but have twice found the Marriage to Ellington - on the 1851 what is given as Thomasin's surname please ?
Best
John
p.S She was 18 when she married and the full name of Lavinia is :Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington
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Thomasin Wilkinson death
Jul/Aug/Se 1858
Sunderand 10a 207
(Wilkinson on 1851)
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Has anyone a second marriage for Thomasin, if the youngest is a wilkinson, then it must be around 1837? Which means that Henry Ellington died between 1832 (when last son was born) and 1837 ? but Maybe AT SEA - which again is strange as I appear to have his signature in 1851 on a Crew list - unless that is another Henry and not Henry George ?
Best
John
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Thomasin had a younger brother b.1805 who after an Apprenticeship was a Carriage Lamp Maker in London, he had 5 sons and one Daughter- Lavinia b. 1838, who married William AngAs in 1867 and went to live also in Bishopwearmouth, so if the death is correct she would not have seen Thomasin but might have tied up with Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington if she was still around ??
Best
John
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Has anyone a second marriage for Thomasin, if the youngest is a wilkinson, then it must be around 1837?
The Wilkinson son could be Francis's from a previous marriage.
I cant see a post-1837 for Thomas Ellington and Francis Wilkinson
Which implies it was either pre 1837, OR they didnt actually marry (probably if either of their previous spouses were still alive)
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Thanks Lizdb
Ages seem to bonce around a bit between 1841 & 1851? I notice Francis has gained 20 yrs and Thomasine 15 , whereas in fact Thomasine would have been 38 on the first and 48 on the second.
Thomasine's marriage to Henry George Ellington was 16th Dec 1821 at Littleham Church Near Exmouth Devon and was reported in 'the Exeter Flying Post' and is on Devon Marriages - Transcripts (for the records). Last Ellington child - Peter, was born 1834, so they must have been living somewhere up to 1834, if she was widowed then 1833 can be the earliest.
Losses at sea at that epoch were very high, so I jumped to that conclusion, but I don't know.
Best
John
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Another pointer to where and what happened, might be the fact that Tammy herself died and was buried at Holy Trinity Church in 1834 Sunderland record No. 466231.2 - at the time she was living in South Moor Street Bishopwearmouth ( maybe with daughter ). As far as I know Tammy's husband ( Thomas Goodsir died in 1831 in Whitby - still to be comfirmed by Cleveland.
For moment searched all death at sea possibles and nothing - Help !is there an Ellington in the house!! who might know more?
Best
John
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Have just been given : Henry George Ellington's death on 14th June 1896, age 69 YRS - now this
would fall in with the birth of the son in 1827, if he was baptised as Henry George -
could that be looked up please? _ Other info is that he was a Labourer and lived at 31
Hopper Street Bishopwearmouth, service by - Rev.W.Budgen - buried in consecrated ground
Ward13 Section.A. GRAVE 18 - Remarks - INTERED 15th July ???????????
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Hi John
MARRIAGE: 1853 Sunderland
Henry George ELLINGTON
One of the brides: Sarah DAVISON
CENSUS 1861: 4 Minorca, Sunderland
RG 9 / Piece: 3777 / Folio: 12 / Page: 18
Head: Sarah ELLINGTON 31, b Lanchester
1860: 2nd Mate's Certificate
Henry George ELLINGTON, born 1826 Sunderland, Durham
Address: 4 Minorca Place, Sunderland
Passed his exam at Sheilds on 10 Mar 1860
Granted 15 Mar 1860, Cert issued 17 March 1860
1860: Only Mate's Certificate
Henry George ELLINGTON, born 1826 Sunderland, Durham
Address: 4 Minorca Place, Sunderland
Passed his exam at Sunderland on 21 Mar 1860
Granted 24 Mar 1860, Cert issued 27 March 1860
1865: Master's Certificate
Henry George ELLINGTON, born 1826 Sunderland, Durham
Address: 45 Northumberland Street, Sunderland
Passed his exam at Newcastle on 1 April 1865
Granted 4 April 1865, Cert issued 6 April 1865
CENSUS 1871: 18 Salem Street, Bishopwearmouth
RG10 / Piece: 5010 / Folio: 9 / Page: 15
Wife (Head): Sarah ELLINGTON 43, married, Mariner's Wife , from home , b Wolsingham, Durham
CENSUS 1881: Hodgsons Buildings, Bishopwearmouth
RG11 / Piece: 4986 / Folio: 127 / Page: 40 /
Head: Henry G ELLINGTON 54, Master Mariner, b Sunderland
Wife: Sarah ELLINGTON 52, b Lanchester
CENSUS 1891: 38 Malborough St, Bishopwearmouth
RG12 / Piece: 4127 / Folio: 36 / Page: 64 /
Head: Henry G ELLINGTON 64, Coal Hawker, b Sunderland
Wife: Isabella ELLINGTON 62, b Lanchester
Yes, Isabella is wrong - I feel it is actually Sarah (as opposed to a new wife) and that the enumerator may have made a mistake when writing up the schedule in his book.
It's not uncommon for an "ordinary" mariner - master or not, to take on a regular civilian occupation after 'retiring' from the sea.
DEATH 1896:
George Henry ELLINGTON age 69, Sunderland
(name transposed?)
BURIAL: 1896
Sunderland: Henry George ELLINGTON (b abt 1826), 38 Hopper Street
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/newsearch.php
DEATH:
Sarah ELLINGTON age 69, Sunderland
BURIAL: 1897
Sunderland: Sarah ELLINGTON (b abt 1828), 21 Johnson Street
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/newsearch.php
I've also found Lavinia, posting that in a mo.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi John
Here's Lavinia - well, I'm 99.99% certain it's her; I can't find the marriage of her & Joseph.
Lavinia's age is all over the place! Joseph's is not much better - and his birthplace meanders around also, though he goes full circle from 1851 to 1881.
CENSUS 1851: Front Street, Village of Spittal, Northumberland
HO107 / Piece 2421 / Folio 245 / Pg 4
Head: Joseph WILSON 39, mariner, b Crosthwaite, Cumberland
Wife: Lavinia WILSON 28, Domestic Duties, b Sunderland (South), Durham
Son: Joseph WILSON 8, Scholar, b Spittal, Northumberland
Dau: Thominson WILSON 4, Scholar, b Spittal, Northumberland
Son: James WILSON 1,b Spittal, Northumberland
Wife's Sister: Emma J WILKINSON 10, Scholar, b Sunderland (South), Durham
Note: Emma J would be the Jane age 1 in the 1841 WILKINSON census - her birth probably:
as Emma Jane WILKINSON - Sep Qtr 1840 Sunderland
CENSUS 1861: Coble Dean, Chirton, Tynemouth
RG 9 / Piece 3838 / Folio 83 / Pg 54
Head: Joseph WILSON 50, Painter. B Tynemouth, Northumberland
Wife: Livinia WILSON 32, b Sunderland, Durham
Dau: Thominson WILSON 15, Scholar, b Scotland
Son: James WILSON 12, Scholar, b Scotland
Son: Henry Geo. WILSON 9, Scholar, b Scotland
Son: Thomas WILSON 6, Scholar, b Scotland
Note: Probably the enumerator making a transcript error reading re: the pob for the children!
CENSUS 1871: Brunswick Cottage, Chirton, Northumberland
RG10 / Piece 5115 / Folio 10 / Pg 14 /
Head: Joseph WILSON 64, Painter, b North Shields
Wife: Lavinia WILSON 45, b Sunderland, Durham
Son: Henry WILSON 19, unm, Blacksmith, b Spittal, Northumberlands
Son: Thomas WILSON 10, Scholar,b Spittal, Northumberlands
CENSUS 1881: Brunswick Cottage, Chirton, Northumberland
RG11 / Piece 5076 / Folio 102 / Pg 49
Head: Joseph WILSON 74, Labourer, b Whitehaven
Wife: Livania WILSON (sic), 53, b Sunderland, Durham
Son: Henry WILSON 29, unm, Shipsmith (builder), b Spittal
DEATH: 1886
Lavinia WILSON age 67, Tynemouth
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks Ambly
That great, and I am sure you are right, about his retirement job - I am just having a break from painting the window surrounds - my North East Collier time was long ago. Since I am painting white on white I had better get back to it before I loose where I was!!!! will give it my full attention later and come back on it.
That really is excellent thanks again - oh now I've got paint on the Keys !!
Best
John
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;D ;D Hope the painting going well and most of it going where it ought!
Cheers
AMBLY
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Ages seem to bonce around a bit between 1841 & 1851? I notice Francis has gained 20 yrs and Thomasine 15 , whereas in fact Thomasine would have been 38 on the first and 48 on the second....Transcripts (for the records). Last Ellington child - Peter, was born 1834, so they must have been living somewhere up to 1834, if she was widowed then 1833 can be the earliest.
Hello John,
Erm ... are you sure Peter was born 1834?
If, from the census, well .... "ages seem to bonce around a bit" as you say.
If, from the Bishops' Transcripts, suggest that you double check whether that is, in fact, birth year or baptismal year. Why? Because if Peter was actually born a little bit earlier, I would suggest the Sunderland Cholera Epidemic of 1831 as a *possible* cause for Henry's disappearance.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello John,
To forestall the next question, I have already looked - no hits for your Ellington-s in Keys.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Oh what a nasty thought - only got Peter's birth date from 1841 Census, and when you look, between Henry and Thomas there is a space of five years.
Tell me please someone did they pay the Enumerator in Newcastle Brown, before he did the job, or was the census taken on New Year ( the figures from one census to another don't make sense). That reminds me it is a long time since I went first footing - and what do they do for a lump of coal these days, or can you still pick it off the beach at Easington anyway I would have to dye my hair !!
But (a) that puts Henry .G into the same possible year as Thomas Goodsir (b) was it rife on the ships do you Know.
Best
John
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Oh what a nasty thought - ...(b) was it rife on the ships do you Know.
Hello John,
Lots of info in Google books about it - no sense in my typing it out again - but the short answer is "Yes".
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Ambly
It does appear that Henry George Ellington jnr and wife Sarah didn't have any children, and left all that work to Lavinia.
Can you I wonder help with this Tillman/Tullick puzzle :
5th Dec 1840 Arr Newcastle from Gaspe with Deal Quebec ‘Aid’ Tillman
At same time also from Gaspe with timber was 2100 ‘England’s Queen’ Tullick ( his father-in-law – or Brother-in - Law ? )
All I have on this John Tillman is this :
1861 Census : 37 Union Street Bishopwearmouth Sunderland
Margaret Tillman ( nee Tullick) wife 45 1816 Mariner’s wife ( married at St Peters Monkwearmouth 10th May 1834)
John son 25 1836 Surveyor/Architect
Mary.S daughter 17 1841
Louisa daughter 15 1844
Thomas son 9 1852
Mary Tullick Mother in Law 76 1785 Mariner’s Widow
( Absent John Tillman was born – Silksworth Row 1810 )
There appeared to have been two other ( now deceased ) children
Matthew b.15th Dec 1839 AND a 1st Thomas b. 31st May 1842.
Since I have no first name for Mr Tullick, I am stuck, so don't know if the had a son (who would be about the same age as John Tillman) who was also a Master mariner. However it seems that the two of them ran in tandem.
Best
John
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Hi John
TILLMAN:
Master's Certificate of Service #53,622
Issued in Dublin on 4 Apr 1851
John TILLMAN born Sunderland in the county of Durham in the year 1811
Has been employed in the capacities of App Mate & Master 26 years in the British Merchant Service in the Coasting & Foreign Trades.
Signed (John Tillman)
He had applied for this Certificate of Service on 25 March 1851 at Dublin, under the name of John TILLMAN born Sunderland on 6 January 1811, and resident of Sunderland and declared his service as having been on the following ships::
Fenwick 1825-1830
Sharp 1830-1834
Denton 1834 -1835
Lunar 1835 - 1836
Lady Williamson 1836 - 1837
Expedition 1837 - 1838
Aid 1838 - 1845
John Coleman? 1845 - 1851
TULLICK
Master's Certificate of Service #47,677
Issued in Londonderry on 2 Jun 1851
John TULLICK age 38, born South Shields in the county of Durham in the 17th February 1812.
Has been employed in the capacities of App Mate & Master 18 years in the British Merchant Service in the Foreign & Coasting Trades.
Signed (John Tullick)
He had applied for this Certificate of Service on 27 Sep 1850 at the port of Shields under the name of John TULLICK born South Shields on 17 Feb 1812, and resident of 58 Green Street, So Shields, and declared his service as having been on the following ships::
Grace 1835-1837
Englands Queen 1837-1843
Mary Ann Cook 1843-1845
Rhodes 1845-1845
Amarzan 1845-1846
Highlander 1846-1846
Edgar 1846-1848
John & Ann 1848-1849
Chance 1849-1850
Margery 1850 to date
So the TULLICK Master of the England's Queen (on the ca 1840 voyage you mention from Gaspe) was not TILLMAN's father-in-law.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Perhaps Mr. Tullick the father was a William.
Some possibles turn up in the North East Inheritance database.
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/simple.php (http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/simple.php)
Details of probate records found
William TULLICK, ship-owner, of South Shields [South Shields, County Durham].
Date of death: 19 August 1837
Date of probate: 20 September 1837
administration bond, penal sum £1,600, 20 September 1837 (DPRI/3/1837/A143)
Elizabeth TULLICK, widow, of South Shields in the county of Durham [South Shields, County Durham].
Date of death: 23 January 1841
Date of probate: 24 February 1842
administration bond, penal sum £1,200, 24 February 1842 (DPRI/3/1842/A26)
William TULLOCK, master mariner, of South Shields in the county of Durham [South Shields, County Durham].
Date of death: May 1842
Date of probate: 28 June 1842
will, 13 December 1841 (DPRI/1/1842/T11/1-2)
registered copy of will, 13 December 1841 (DPRI/2/51 p354-355)
Last time I bought from them it was just GBP 5.00 to get a p'copy of a will.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello
And thanks again both of you. So maybe the William who died in 1837 was the husband of Mary Tullick b.1785? And they had in turn :
William b. ? but died 1842 - Master Mariner
John b. 1812 - Master Mariner
Margaret b. 1816
Does that make sense ?
Am off on walkabout for a few days
Best
John
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Back again, having been up to see Tall Ships in Rouen, and have now got William Henry Goodsir's death cert, which tells us that he died of Phithusis Pulmonatis ( T.B. ), which according to the Surgeon, he had had for 15 months !!! Strange thing is death witnessed by informant:
X The mark of Francis Leas 12 present at the death Corstorphine Town Westoe.
Same day as he left the ship, ( unless the Mate had told the Cabin boy that the Captain was sick and that the cabin boy must take the Captain's belongings and help him to his lodging ? )
On a better note - wrong flag - wrong rig but about correct size for one of Thomas Goodsir's ships,
and it was built for the Baltic run - anyway I have a good imagination!!
Best
John
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Hello Westoe ( if you are around )
Please what was an Administration bond - Penal Sum - was it the same as death duties ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
Good picture. Thanks for posting that. What's her name?
The bad news is that when you see the term "Administation Bond" in the probate papers, it means that the person died intestate and there is no will so no more information than what is in the probate listing.
The person claiming to be legal next-of-kin and therefore entitled/authorized to take charge of deceased's estate had to put up a bond to prove sincerity - much like the marriage bonds of the time. If it should turn out that that person was *not* the proper person to have administration of the estate, the bond was forfeit, just as, if there was any legal impediment to the proposed marriage (consanguinity, imbecility, one partner already married etc.), the marriage bond sum was forfeited. Sort of the authorities saying "If you mess around with us and waste our precious time, it's going to cost you BigTime!"
Cheers,
Westoe
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She is the ' Etoile de France' built 1938 - 220 tons - 39.9 mts L
If I can find one that David might have said " yes I'll sail that one " - then I will post it also, but am still busy sorting out many photos, as while up in Normandy, was also chasing wife's Huguenot ancestors, graveyards - temples etc !!
Best
John
p.s. Thanks for clearing that up must rush out and make a will !!!!!!!!
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Hello John,
Thank you for the email ... I think. I have been switched (unwillingly) to !*%New*%! Yahoo Mail and this Linux laptop can't do anything with it, so I don't know what you wrote to me.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Still trying to find death of Thomasin's husband - Henry George Ellington -seems to be between 1830 and 1840- but having no luck so far - Liz if you are around could you look into your cristal ball please, mine doesn't work !!
Best
John
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Back to the Goodsir family talking ships thought David might have liked the sail plan on this one, not sure but think it is called the 'Marite' - French - and built in 1923. The oldest of the tall ships seems to be the 'Belem' built in 1896.
Best
John
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Hello AMBLY
Do you by chance have the same info for Henry George Ellington Snr that you gave me for the Tillman and Tullick puzzle, as it will be sometime before I can get to U.K. and the LMA again please - the only ship I know that he was on (as Mate) was the 'Seaflower' in Dec 1821 ( when he married Tammy's daughter in Exmouth).
Best
John
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Puzzle !!!
On the 4th May 1880 a two and a half year old boy died due to an accident in Mile End Road, South
Shields - his name was William Henry Goodsir.
So knowing the date - the place of the accident - the name and age of the boy - the report also states - " the parents reside in Cleveland Street"
How can you find the names of the parents - as the boy is too young to have appeared on 1871 Census- IF THE PARENTS had not moved by the year following (1881) the accident, is there a way of finding who they were please ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
I would buy a copy of the child's death certificate or of his birth certificate.
Searching website "FreeBMD" for surname "Goodsir", district "South Shields", time frame "March 1875 to Dec. 1880" brings up the reference numbers for both his birth and death, Wilhelmina Hannah's birth, death of another William Henry Goodsir aged 29, marriage of an Isabella Goodsir and marriage of a David Goodsir.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks Westoe
Think I had best go for the Birth Cert, as I know he died in Hospital, so I suppose parents won't be mentioned - but should at birth ?
Best
John
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Two more earlier ships of Thomas Goodsir, great thanks to Scarborough Marine Heritage.
I think there was another one also before 1817, as son David was born at sea in May 1816 and I doubt, since that event happened in North Atlantic, that Mary ANN his mother would have been happy to set sail for the Americas on a little sloop, in the circumstances.
His next ship appears to have been the ‘Hope’ Thomas Goodsir; Date of Command:
20th Oct. 1798 to 1804
Where built: Scarborough (Tindall Yard) Year built : 1791
Date of Registration: 6th April 1791
Rig: Ship Tonnage: 316 Dimensions: Length 98' 5" Beam: 27' 9"
Other Details
Two Decks; Square Stern; Poop Deck
Owners
James Tindall
Robert Tindall
William Tindall Shipbuilders of Scarborough
John Coulson Master Mariner of Whitby
Lost with all Hands August 1816
(The first Master with a Date of Command corresponding to the Date of Registration is named by James Buckley as John Goodsir) who was John ?? Maybe Father or Brother ?
On the 27 Dec 1802 he married Mary Ann Harrison who was born in1784 and the daughter
of John and Thomasin Harrison ( Harrison family being a well known Sunderland family
of Master Mariners and Ship owners ) they went on to have at least five living children.
By 1817 Thomas was Master of the ‘Spring’, built in Scarborough in 1802, rig. Sloop
Length : 47’ 5” Beam 18’ 9”
Best
John
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Morning/Evening Westoe
If you are around - do you know if the' Durham Country Advertiser' has an on line searchable Archive, or if not, how can you get info ( thinking of Ellingtons ).
Best
John
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Hello John,
No, not online. Durham County Libraries have it on microfilm, as does Durham University Library.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, John,
But ... (smile) ... not to disappoint you if you have your heart set on reading old newspapers ... I've just received a link to Historical Newspapers of Finland. In Finnish of course, but British vessel names and master names are given in English, and there's always Babel or Google Translate. Lots of hits here for David Goodsir and BLACK SWAN.
http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/sanomalehti/secure/query.htm (http://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/sanomalehti/secure/query.htm)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks Westoe
Will get onto that next - at the moment are ploughing through British Newspapers for Ellington on FindMyPast, and so far without yet having to pay ( Hope they don't read this post!!) have found him on Mary -Rising Sun -Fourth - Medcalf & Mowray - all between 1818 and 1837 with still a few thousend entries to go - mainly 'W' ellington!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
To continue - having gone thru 5629 hits on B.N. for Ellington - I now know what there is to know about WELLINGTON ( duke of ) but not too much on our Henry Ellington - I think the first two might be someone else as by 1821 he was serving as mate on the 'Seaflower' ( time when he married Tammy's daughter ), so doubt that he was Master on ' Pegay' in 1811 or 'Mary in 1818 - What do you think?
However I think good possibles are :
'Mowbray' several trips recorded 1824 to 1827 Sunderland to Southampton
'Metcalf' one trip in 1827 - maybe 'Mowbray' was in dock and he did a relief for 'Metcalf's Capt.
'Rising Sun' in 1829 & 1830 Sunderland to Exmouth ( maybe a trips for Thomasine !! )
Then later in 1830 I have 'Gunale' arr Clyde from Newfoundland -not sure about him changing to
deep sea - then nothing before (or after) 1837 when 'Fourth' arr Littlehampton from Bogitor ??
or was it Bangor ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
Have you had any reply yet from your message #32 of this thread asking for the look-up of HGE Sr. in Ancestry Masters and Mates database? That's where I would start in the hopes that the Record of Service to his application for a Mate's certificate survives. If you haven't had an answer yet, I'll go to the public library for you and look it up.
I have a feeling that 'Pegay' in 1811 is a typo for 'Peggy' (sigh - such a commonly used vessel name. Ditto for 'Mary'. Needle in a haystack time.)
Yes, he could have signed on as a mate after having been a master. You'd need to look at the tonnages (master of a little vessel moving up to being mate of a big one?) and at the economic overview of the period (when jobs were hard to get, a man who'd been master might sign on as mate just to have a job).
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks Westoe
No haven't had a reply to 34 yet, but it is the holiday time - it would be nice if you could look though please ( then that is another look-up I can do for you next time in the UK ) - they are mounting up so will have to spend more time there, maybe even get North !!
Yes - needle in haystack time - as bad as finding what ship 'David was born on - at moment we have HOPE and SPRING (s) - could the next one be ETERNALLY ???
Sorry what a pun - but it is very hot here at the moment !!
In fact have come across - MALVINA Goodsir London to Newfoundland sailed downs on 31st August and had not (or now ) arrived on 23rd Oct 1815 - could be the one, to fit in between Hope and when he took Spring in 1817 have asked our very helpful researcher at Scarborough Heritage if they can find ship of that name from there or Whitby at that epoch.
Best
John
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Yes - needle in haystack time - as bad as finding what ship 'David was born on - at moment we have HOPE and SPRING (s) - could the next one be ETERNALLY ???
Hello John,
Very hot, humid, rainy and mosquito-ey here and I've just walked up that long hill from town so very pleased to find your message waiting. Thanks for the chuckle.
It may be Thursday or Friday before I can get to the library, but I will look for you.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello John,
No luck on HGE Sr. in that database.
Three entries for HGE Jr., Certificate # 22,042.
In 1860, he was living at 4 Minorca Place, Sunderland.
He got his 2nd Mate on 17 March 1860 in Sunderland, and ten days later on 27 March passed his Only Mate exam.
On 6 April, 1865, he was living at 45 Northumberland Street, Sunderland when he passed his Master's exam.
He changed ships frequently - too many to write out today. Here's a few.
He apprenticed 19 September 1843 to 19 September 1847 on ANENOME of Sunderland.
CAROLINE of Sunderland
PATHFINDER of ditto
ESSAY of ditto
ANENOME of London (This could be his first ship again sold out of Sunderland registry)
ENDEAVOUR of Sunderland
SAMUEL & SARAH of ditto
EMPLOY of ditto
VINE of ditto
J W COLLINGWOOD of ditto
CALDER of ditto
AUCKLAND of ditto
THORNLEY of ditto
RUBY of ditto
THETIS of ditto
Cheers,
Westoe
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Morning Westoe
And thanks - hope the steep long hill had cooled down a bit, here we are in a wide type river valley, so no hills to climb, but the valley holds the temperature high and humid.
First back to David and the Finns - one of the entries states that the cargo was 437 Tons of Coal, and we have the ship down as 297 Tons - if she was built in 1854, then I suppose the ship's tonnage rating would come under the Moorsom System, which I understand was brought into being in 1849 ?
Ellington Jnr it appears was a busy man then, looking forward to full details ,when you have time, also have found an entry, for (I think him) with a cert No. of 37890 - dates between 1845-54.
Pity about his old man though I think some of the ships I found, on B.N. must have been his, a cert his son is too young to be on any of those.
Must keep taking the tablets and hugging the shade.
Best
John
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First back to David and the Finns - one of the entries states that the cargo was 437 Tons of Coal, and we have the ship down as 297 Tons - if she was built in 1854, then I suppose the ship's tonnage rating would come under the Moorsom System, which I understand was brought into being in 1849?
Is that from the Finnish newspapers about David on BLACK SWAN? It could be a combination of old measurement and new measurement or it could be just a typo.
Ellington Jnr it appears was a busy man then, looking forward to full details ,when you have time, also have found an entry, for (I think him) with a cert No. of 37890 - dates between 1845-54.
Erm ... are you sure that is a certicate number? It predates the ones I found for him and I don't think the numbers under the 'Voluntary' scheme (1845-1850 before certification became compulsory) ever got that high. I'm thinking that 37,890 was more likely his Seaman's Register Ticket number. Think of it as two separate registration plans - one for the officers and a different one for the men.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes, David and Black Swan - think first is right as Finns are usually correct.
Young Ellington is nearly as big a problem as father !! The info was from FindMyPast on Entry BT114/7 and he is in first col at bottom of page, there are no other dates or info,except he is from Sunderland.
On his ships am not getting far on Clip :
Have a 'Caroline' 2688 built 1855 Sail 370T - but isn't that too early.
' Essay - sail Brigantine 191 t owned by Stokes of Seaham J.S.T.B. but again 1856 too early ?
BEST
JOHN
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Continuation :
27502 'Endeavor' Shields ? sail 273T James Wood of Blyth owner.
3648 'Employ' 1854 London - sail 278T
2620 'Vine' 1853 Sunderland - sail 259T
2477 'J.W.COLLINGWOOD' Sunderland STEAM 10t Sounds more like a Tug ?
2812 ' Thornley' Sunderland -sail 241T
2986 'Ruby' Sunderland 1832 Sail 189T
2799 'Thetis' Sunderland 1852 sail 218T H.Q.P.M
I think !!!!!!!!!!!
For Dad's Ships, found two possible 'Rising Suns' 7641 REG Shields or since he seemed to run Sunderland to Southampton most times 6058 REG Southampton but nothing else.
Now put your money on - that I have got it wrong again !!!
Best
John
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Young Ellington is nearly as big a problem as father !! The info was from FindMyPast on Entry BT114/7 and he is in first col at bottom of page, there are no other dates or info,except he is from Sunderland
Aha! Here is the description from National Archives Discovery catalogue of BT 114 (bolding is mine).
Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Alphabetical Index to Registers of Seamen's Tickets
Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Alphabetical Index to Registers of Seamen's Tickets. This series contains the alphabetical index to the Registers of Seamen's Tickets in BT 113 which was kept by the General Registry and Record Office of Seamen.
So, not a certificate number.
More in a few days if this weather breaks. Just too too hot and sultry to have the energy to do anything.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks once again Westoe
That has sorted that one.
At my age, well 'Hot and Sultry' is a thing I used to dream about.
Now - Just keep cool Man!!!
Hear from you later
Best
John
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Young Ellington is nearly as big a problem as father !! The info was from FindMyPast on Entry BT114/7 and he is in first col at bottom of page, there are no other dates or info,except he is from Sunderland
Hello John,
Another brutal day, so to try and take my mind off the heat and humidity, here's a bit more on the same subject as last message. Am I correct that when you found the bit quoted above, you had bought a few credits for FindMyPast? If you want to look there again, there should have been a corresponding entry in BT 113, the numerically-ordered register of seamens' tickets which would have given you more information on HGE jr. - date and place of birth, date of first going to sea, hair colour, eye colour, complexion, distinguishing marks etc.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes will look into that one 32° me and computer !!
Have just had a reply to my question on possible The burial for Thomas Goodsir at St Mary Whitby 14th June 1831- which on transcription from original on to Micro film shows as Goodsill. Only info they could give was : abode :- Shipyard ?
Have search everwhere and above seems the only possible, due to my 'fuzzy' logic that follows /
Facts: Baines 1823 directory for Scarborough ( under Master Mariners col.) Goodsir Thomas living at Long Greece.
When Tammy arrived in 1822 there existed five children from Thomas's previous marriage to Mary Ann Harrison ( daughter of JOHN- Master Mariner and shipowner - Sunderland)
Surmise on facts: Two reasons make me believe that they continued to live in that area, the first being that the youngest three children were only 1yr, 4yr, & 6 yrs old. - The second being that when David (b.1816 at sea ) started his apprenticeship it was in 1828 at the age of 12 and on a Harrison ship registered in Scarborough. Oh and there is a third - on 3rd Dec 1829 THOMAS's ship 'Eleanor' was run down and sunk be a collier going North ( this in a position - 10 miles North of Whitby) -now they were in fact picked up by the'Beaumont' of Stockport (on route to Shields)
If they where living in Sunderland ( where wife Tammy Died in 1834 ) then I think Beaumont's Skipper would have taken them North _ but in fact he landed them in the port of Staithes ( just N; of Whitby ).
Thomas did several trips as Capt of 'Brothers' - his last at the end of 1830, which points to him dying in 1831.
Two reasons why we find Tammy in Sunderland in 1834, are one the Children's Grandparents lived there, and would help support, secondly Tammy's Daughter ( Who she married Orf ) lived there with Husband Ellington.
If it is Thomas Goodsir and not Goodsill how can one be sure, or how can records be but right ??
Note. Have searched and can find no others in the area with the name of GOODSILL!
End of Fuzzy logic for today folks - but would appreciated any comments or suggestions.
Best and over heating !!!
John
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Have just had a reply to my question on possible The burial for Thomas Goodsir at St Mary Whitby 14th June 1831- which on transcription from original on to Micro film shows as Goodsill. Only info they could give was : abode :- Shipyard ?
Hello John,
I don't quite understand the above. "transcription from original on to Micro film"? If the parish register was microfilmed, you'd have a true copy, not a transcription. Did your helper send you the actual image or his/her reading of the image i.e. transcription? I think 'Goodsill' would be an easy misreading of 'Goodsir', so you are probably right on the money with this one, but I'd be wanting to look at the original. You don't have a Mormon History Library anywhere near you, but I do. If you can't get the actual image, I'd be willing to order the fim and capture it for you - the rental isn't much - but I couldn't do it before September. However, in the interim, perhaps a request placed on RootsChat Yorkshire would get you the actual image by email.
Cheers,
Westoe
P.S. Reading Google News UK this morning, I see that 650 deaths in England alone are now attributed to the current heat wave.
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Unfortunately have now found the answer for Puzzle I had on Post 33 - I say unfortunately because in fact it was David Goodsir's Grandson, from his second son Thomas :
Having checked his birth cert, which was given to Thomas & Septina , living at that time at 26, Morton Street Westoe, working as a Blacksmith, before moving to Cleveland Street
To make things worse it would appear that the newly born was named in memory of Thomas’s brother, who had died three years before he was born.
William Henry b. 8th Jan 1878 d. 4th May 1880
“ Yesterday a painful accident which terminated Fatally, occurred in Mile End Road South Shields. It appears that a child named William Henry Goodsir 2 1/2 years of age, whose parents reside in Cleveland Street, was run over by a trolley belonging to North Eastern Railway Company. The child was dreadfully injured, both his legs being broken and very much Lacerated. He was attended by Dr Bootiman and afterwards conveyed to Ingham Infirmary but he expired about an hour after being received in to that Institution.”
South Shields Gazette Weds 5th May 1880.
Just updating
Best
John
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Hello John,
Hurrah! One puzzle solved, but (smile) like a 'many-headed hydra' another half-dozen or so will spring to life. That was sad about the child; he must have suffered terribly in that hour. Sometimes I just have to 'down tools' on this family history business and work at something else for a while. I start identifying too closely with my ancient rellies and all the death and destruction gets to me. Were you following the news coverage on the wreck and sinking of the three-masted sail training ship ASTRID off Kinsale Harbour, Co. Cork a few days ago? Luckily it was daylight and the lifesavers had all mod cons. All aboard were got off alive, but there were colour photographs and video of the rescue effort and the sinking and it brought all my lost mariners very vividly to mind.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Agree with your feelings, can be very hard, spent previous two years on my wife's Huguenots and their many sad stories.
On the 1911 Census Septina ( the poor lad's mother) said she had had 12 Children and at that point only 4 were still living.
Had not heard about the 'Astrid' at here, all news has been on bad rail & coach crashes, also heat wave,though we had a very heavy storm the other day, which made me look for your cellar (smile).
Put request on N.Yorkshire and got a reply as to the fact that 'Shipyard ' is an address on outskirts of Whitby, but no more than that, so I think I have found all possible on 'Goodsirs' ( my step Ancestors - if such a thing exist ? ).
So as no Goodsirs have appeared on the post, think will concentrate on the Ellingtons now, and when you can, could you give me the continuation of Jnr's ships please.
Very Best
John
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Hello again Westoe
Sorry - being well brought up like I forgot to ask for more !
But I will now as I am sure you above anyone will have the answer :
Question: where on the net would I find a good map for the South Shields of David's epoch
please ?
Reason : as I have come across so many addresses that the family have been in, would like to be able to pin point - know some are in Westoe district, but not all.
Best
John
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Question: where on the net would I find a good map for the South Shields of David's epoch please ?
Hello John,
Thank you for the compliment. I don't have that information to hand, but I can tell you a way to find it.
There is a fellow named Stan Mapstone who posts a lot here on RootsChat often answering exactly this type of question. He posts links to websites with historical maps. Indeed, if the questioner has also posted the name of the street, Stan Mapstone frequently includes the exact co-ordinates to look for.
So.... search for a post anywhere by him, click on his profile and run down his list of posts. I'm sure you'll find what you want.
No, I haven't forgotten about Henry jr's ships. Just not easy to get into the library to check Ancestry and with only three public terminnals, there is often a waiting line. But, never fear, I will get it for you.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks Westoe
Knew I had asked the right person, will do as you say and search that way, if I can get what I am after will keep you current.
Just had a look at the ' Astrid ' video, not that heavy a sea, no one said how it happened ?
Having written up ( in my usual weird way) an account of David's family - as far as I have them I am wondering whether to include it on this post, for interest of anybody searching 'Goodsirs' in the future or not - what do you think?
Best
John
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Just had a look at the ' Astrid ' video, not that heavy a sea, no one said how it happened ?
Sea not too heavy but wind was Force 6, I think. They were close to the rocks and barepoled, then the engine failed and they were blown onto the rocks.
Having written up ( in my usual weird way) an account of David's family - as far as I have them I am wondering whether to include it on this post, for interest of anybody searching 'Goodsirs' in the future or not - what do you think?
Generous thought. A lot of typing tho'. I think that anyone searching for Goodsir-s would find your threads and read all start to finish, and then have the option of PM-ing you or posting in the thread any request for more.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again Westoe
First nasty position to be, had that situation ( without the bare poles of course ) once out of Limerick, but nice Engineer man got us going just in time.
Second - my wrist says - Thank you !
Best
John
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Hello John,
Did you find your map? Here is one of the sites that Stan Mapstone advises:
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html (http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html)
Also some old maps and town plans of South Shields here:
http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/place1.asp (http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/place1.asp)
And.... skimming hrough his posts, I happened on this list of yards in Whitby.
http://mdfs.net/Docs/Books/YofWhitby/YardList
The earliest source given is an 1828 map coded as 'JW'. Well, searching that list for 'JW' brings up a lot of hits, which means a lot of possible places for the late Thomas Goodsir/Goodsill to have abided.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Morning Westoe
Thanks for South Shield info, in fact I PM'd Stan and he sent Me two sites by return,one by South Shields where you could transpose, new maps on old, but have not had time to look up yet. After the Henry Ellington, crews list ( which FMD instantly re-credited, and said their Data team would check out ) have not searched others, out of interest does crew mean everybody on the vessel at that time, including Capt,Mate, Cook, and engineers (on later ships) ?
In my dotage, it seems to me, unless once again I am missing something ??? That any master who died or stopped seagoing before 1840 , is untraceable except on odd entries in Newspapers and sometimes (only) on Lloyd's list ?
To use the terminology of the time a have been ' Press Ganged ' into re-researching Huguenots in their ancient habitats around France, so will be absent for a few days.
Best
John
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Hello John,
Yes, master, mate and cook are listed. I expect engineers are too - I just have never bought one for a steam vessel.
I think that I have sent you this link before:
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/crewlistforms_new.php#f1 (https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/crewlistforms_new.php#f1)
The images are small, but for example if you click on the thumbnail image for F1/F2, you can make out, about 2/3rds of the way across, the column with ranks listed. On this one I see master, mate, 2nd mate, carpenter, steward, cook and AB.
Masters before 1840 - erm ... well ... also
- old books, incl. and esp. autobiographies of mariners contemporary with yours
- archives of shipping companies (like the Michael Henley papers at NMM),
- National Archives files e.g. Muster Rolls (BT 98)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/merchant-shipping-crewlists-agreements-1747-1860.htm (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/merchant-shipping-crewlists-agreements-1747-1860.htm)
(See? I wasn't joking yesterday when I wrote that eventually you would be going there. Problem is, they are not filed in any particular order so will be a long slog to find what you want.)
- local archives files
- Trinity House records etc.
It's just that the "biggies" like Lloyd's Captains Registers and Lloyd's List are the easiest and most accessible. However, merchant shipping records seem to have become popular with the pay sites. What's available currently on Ancestry and FindMyPast have been added only recently and we can but hope that they soon add more.
Good luck with your Huguenots.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, John,
Further to my last, I've been trawling the catalogue at Tyne and Wear Archives. Have a look at this mouth-watering entry.
Code: 541
Description: records relating to Newcastle Corporation shipping dues and dumping ballast comprising 1-3, 9-11, ledgers arranged by ship, 1811-59; 4-5, ledgers arranged by owners, 1762-1828; 6-8, ledgers arranged by port, 1715-30; 12-20, shipping books, 1748- 1835; 21-4, dues books, 1801-34; 25-33, ballast and tonnage books, 1771-1829; 34-5, corn books, 1787-1827; 36, quay dues book, 1809-13; 37, cargoes ledger, 1846-55; 38, orders to load and unload on the Tyne other than at Newcastle, 1830-43; 39, register of steam boats, 1839-58
Date: 1715 - 1859
Keywords: levies duties
What do you bet that you would find nuggets about Goodsir and TRANSFER here?
Yes, I know that it says "Newcastle Corporation", but for years and years and years, Newcastle was the only *official* port on the Tyne and controlled all the shipping - a cause for much local dissension and brouhaha. Shields did not officially become a port until 1840's.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Thanks for that lot, just back from Tournai and a visit round what was left of the old Citedal where a lot of the Huguenots managed to escape to, on their way to England, or where they went to get married.
The main part had been blown to pieces, but two subterranean levels still ( thanks to the friends of the Citedal ) have been partially restored, very interesting Historical guided tour, by one of the friends, who knew a lot, and was very clear ( though in French ).
Is the Newcastle info avialiable on line and how exactly do you get at it, did try, but am going wrong somewhere I think.
Best
John
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Is the Newcastle info avialiable on line and how exactly do you get at it, did try, but am going wrong somewhere I think.
Hello John,
Tournai sounds fascinating, and even in a 'canicule', touring subterranean levels wouldn't be uncomfortable.
The Newcastle stuff - No, it's not online. You'd have to go there. I put that in partly as an example of looking in local archives for information on masters pre-1840 as per your last post, and partly (very big smile) I'm trying to entice you into a trip north. Mischevious of me and I do apologize.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe of the wicked smile !!
Thanks ! would like to but railways about to increase fares, by 4.5% and B& B also seem to be rather high, however will search to see if I can find decent priced B&B in either Shields or Sunderland area for September, as it seems the only way to see goodies (as stuffed under my nose by Westoe).
Here is a site which you might not have, but that I found when doing a follow-up on Thomasine's daughter ( Mrs. Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington Wilson - to give her full title - bet she blessed her mother for that one!!).
Now this came about, as being a 'Southerner' and not having a Visa to go North of the Staithes in Blyth, when I found that she went to live in 'Spittal' and then Chirton, I was lost - so searching british- history, I came across Samuel Lewis's '1848 Topographical accounts of places & counties in England and it is a real eye opener for places at that epoch.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=445
Thanks for the smile
Best
John
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Thanks ! would like to but railways about to increase fares, by 4.5% and B& B also seem to be rather high, however will search to see if I can find decent priced B&B in either Shields or Sunderland area for September, as it seems the only way to see goodies (as stuffed under my nose by Westoe).
Erm ... maybe best wait for another trip ...I try to help out on other forums too ...if I get someone who lives near TWAS offering reciprocity, I'll ask him/her to do a 'recon' for us on that file. Better to know in advance how massive those volumes are and whether there are any restrictions on viewing them.
Here is a site which you might not have, but that I found when doing a follow-up on Thomasine's daughter ( Mrs. Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington Wilson - to give her full title - bet she blessed her mother for that one!!).
Even if Lavinia didn't, I'm sure you do - smile. Unusual names are so very helpful - much easier than hunting for a David Jones or Ann Smith.
I'll PM you later with request for LMA - signal keeps fading in and out right now.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Yes would never have found any of them without Thomasine's brilliant thoughts, bless her.
Will await with baited breath and fuzzy logic your PM - I found as much interest on Ralphy last time
, as on hunting my own - all part of the learning process.
Best
John
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Hello John,
What are the odds of two different master mariners named Silas Angas? That's right - Angas with two 'a's. When was your fellow afloat? I've just come across a reference to a Silas Angas being master circa 1845 of 257 ton CHARLES RICHARD.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Whoopee !
Reckon this is also ours, having in the past contacted the 'Joplin's site' which has a comprehensive account of Angas tree, the only other Silas appears to have been this one's son (who was a Tailor, then ran a Pub - then off to New Zealand ind 1917, into Army reserve , out and continued tailoring,)had Two sons and two daughters.
Now to go back a bit Thomasine (as married off by Tammy ! ) had a Brother George (A Carriage Lamp Maker, living in London ) This George's wife (Elizabeth Lerway ) in 1838 gave birth to yet another Lavinia, who in 1867 married William Angas ( son of Silas Angas - Master Mariner, and at that time the family were living in the Trinity Houses in Deptford).
Son William was into selling Ironmongery, so can maybe, be assumed that he met Lavinia while selling to her Dad ?
Anyway after the wedding all the family went back to the North ( Sunderland) where for a time they were running the 'Bath Hotel' in Moor Street Bishopwearmouth.
I had not yet started on old Silas's sea career, so that will be a helpful one. The old man was born in 1787, and died in 1876 aged 89 - must have been the Deptford air to last that long !!!!!!!!
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Continuing the story of Old Angas, by 1861 he appears to be retired and aged 74 living in the Trinity Almshouses in Lower Trinity Ground ( Next to St Nicholas Church - which still stands ) Near Deptford Creek (London) with his family.
Other ex Master Mariners or widows, included :
John Norwood age 65, his wife Phoebe and family.
William Watts age 65, his wife Jane, and family.
Jane Robinson age 78 (Widow ) and family.
George Champion age 65, with Wife Jane & family.
Mary Tripp age 66 (Widow).
John Hobbs age 66 & wife Annetta.
George HIgton age 78 (Widower)
St Nicholas still know as a seafarer's church and well worth a visit if anyone reading is in the area.
Deptford has an amazing amount of Maritime history, most now in danger of disappearing for good with the aid of Developers !!
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Yet another one I can't get to grips with !
Between 1805 and 1810 'Old' Silas Angas was apprentice on the 275T 'Doris' from Sunderland,okay, but then he has down as ' What Trade' - was appears to be Transfer Larvac - any ideas?
Then again between 1813 and 1827, while Master on the 'Adamant' 200T also Sunderland, we have, what appears to be Transport & Baltic - Baltic, ok but Transporting what ?
Last one 'Charles Richard' he has just put in Commerce.
By 1850 he was 63yrs old and already had 46yrs in the Merchant Service - maybe he was just a bit
'------' off by having to fill in forms, what do you think ?
Best
John
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... Between 1805 and 1810 'Old' Silas Angas was apprentice on the 275T 'Doris' from Sunderland,okay, but then he has down as ' What Trade' - was appears to be Transfer Larvac - any ideas?
Erm ... Because I didn't keep copies of the images, I can't right now look at what you are seeing. I will look that up again, but not until next week - long holiday W/E started here today and library closed a few days.
Then again between 1813 and 1827, while Master on the 'Adamant' 200T also Sunderland, we have, what appears to be Transport & Baltic - Baltic, ok but Transporting what ?
"Transport" in shipping usually has a military context i.e. chartered by the Admiralty to transport troops, horses or supplies. Is it significant that he put the words in that order? Did he mean that early in that period c. 1813 ADAMANT was a transport and then she went back into Baltic trade? If so, there are several reasons for needing transports in 1813, a Canadian one being to bring home troops from "The War of 1812". Again, I will take a look at the original when I can.
Last one 'Charles Richard' he has just put in Commerce.
By 1850 he was 63yrs old and already had 46yrs in the Merchant Service - maybe he was just a bit
'------' off by having to fill in forms, what do you think ?
That sounds quite reasonable. Or, perhaps CHARLES RICHARD had such varied cargoes and travelled such varied routes that "Commerce" was the simplest common denominator to put in the space. You won't know that until you've tracked her voyages.
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Hello John,
P.S. an example to your last re 'transports'. The Crimean War (mid 1850's) had a massive effect on merchant shipping. The Admiralty not only chartered walloping numbers of vessels for transport, but the Army kept those vessels tied up for months by not unloading the stores but keeping the ships hanging around as floating warehouses.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks
Knew you would be able to put me right.
Do you call them bank holidays over there, or have you another name for long weekend break - either way have a good one - and no running up and down that long Hot hill.
BEST
John
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... Now to go back a bit Thomasine (as married off by Tammy ! ) had a Brother George (A Carriage Lamp Maker, living in London ) This George's wife (Elizabeth Lerway ) in 1838 gave birth to yet another Lavinia, who in 1867 married William Angas ( son of Silas Angas - Master Mariner, and at that time the family were living in the Trinity Houses in Deptford).
Son William was into selling Ironmongery, so can maybe, be assumed that he met Lavinia while selling to her Dad ?
Hello John,
Or .... maybe William was just the boy-next-door. From their marriage entry, she lived at #3 Prospect Terrace and he lived at #5. More later.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello John,
I've had a look at Silas' Record of Service.
For DORIS, I read either "Transport an [and] var [various]" or "Transpor [Transport] Sarvas [Service]".
For CHARLES RICHARD, I think that is "America" again, not "Commerce".
Remember that spelling was erratic then even in people who'd had some schooling. Look how he spells Baltic three different ways on this list - Baltic, Baltec and Baltick, so why not America as Amirica and Ammirica?
And I think the sixth vessel named is HAMPSHIRE rather than HAMPSHIN.
Some Lavinia bits are coming by email.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Morning Westoe
Been off with computer problems ( not having a second little green beauty, like you ) oh! for a quill and ink!!
Uhm, on 1861 Census Lavinia was at home with her two younger brothers, living at 5, Ashley Crescent Clerkenwell London.She was also working in her Grandfather's Stationary Shop,near there.
From experience, found that Vicar was quite happy to accept a temporary address, so that you can marry in his Church, and William is shown on the second page of 1861 as living with his Father in the Trinity House complex in Deptford.
Couldn't see what you could see on family search re: Silas, but yes I had done quite a bit on Angas family history some time back, but had not gone into his sea career, as at time seemed to be too far out on a limb, shows how wrong one can be !! - again!
Best
John
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Sorry, yes twas I re correcting in 2011, spent rather along time doing that on that site until I lost faith in it and started to search elsewhere.
Best
John
p.s. Sure you are right on Silas's list of ships, could be he was filling the form in, while rolling about in a heavy sea, before reaching port, and also one must remember that his computer didn't have a spelling check - like , thank goodness this one does !!
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"Then as recounted on the previous page, on the 8th Sept 1867 Lavinia married George William Angas in St Johns church Upper Holloway, and off they went up north, taking old man Silas and family with them. As I had found this early in my research, I didn’t know that in fact Lavinia had relatives in Sunderland, however when I did know, it was only to realise that Tammy had died four years before Lavinia was born, and that Thomasine had died nine years before Lavinia’s wedding, however she was not entirely alone, as Thomasine’s children, lived up there.
The first info that we have after the wedding, is the 1871 Census, stating that they lived at No.6 Bishopton Street Bishopwearmouth, William was a commercial Clerk, and Lavinia is Dressmaking, they had one girl Lavinia Annie aged three ( who had been born in North Shields) – So since cousin – Lavinia Thomasine Tillman Ellington Wilson
was living in Chirton ( a mile west of N.Shields) maybe, the newly weds first stop, was there."
Just shows what you can miss if you don't check the 'where born col. Or if it is entered incorrectly
Best
John
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Morning Westoe
Looks as though you have been up all night again on the dreaded machine ( not green Beasty).
Could be on another winner there with Thomas Goodsir - He was born in 1762 - his first command was ' Fortitude Success' in 1786 - Then I have nothing until the 'Hope' which he had from 1798 to 1804 - so yes 'Phillis' could fit in between nicely - will see what I can find on her re 'Pastscape & clip. Only query - why London, if he was working for Fred Cornwall, then John Coulson, maybe one of them had bought the ship?
Best
John
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Hello John,
Why not London? A vessel could be registered anywhere. From that same file I found a third hit for one of my Shields mariners and two hits for a George Goodsir which I didn't send last night because I didn't think you were searching any further back than Thomas, he being a step-relation. Lucky in fact, that it is London, because by the time that the outports were included, those lists no longer included the master's name.
Cheers,
Westoe
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George! - George! oh help not another one!!!
Ref 'Loss' I assume of 'Phillis' and not Thomas - I could find nothing on Pastscape, except for a couple of dutchmen that grounded themselves. Also nothing on Clip for that age.
Back to missing husband of Thomasine, still nothing, except what appears to be ref. to his father as being a prisoner of war at Valenciens - as on a Trinity house demand for aid by Mary 47 wife of Henry Ellington ( That makes four Henry's in a row !! ) dated 1812.
Best
John
p.s. Will be closing down this machine in a couple of hours, and pick up contact when I get across.
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Could be on another winner there with Thomas Goodsir - He was born in 1762 - his first command was ' Fortitude Success' in 1786 - Then I have nothing until the 'Hope' which he had from 1798 to 1804 - so yes 'Phillis' could fit in between nicely - will see what I can find on her re 'Pastscape & clip. Only query - why London, if he was working for Fred Cornwall, then John Coulson, maybe one of them had bought the ship?
Hello John,
For the ownership, you would have to look at the Shipping Register for Port of London for that year. (I had hoped that I would recognize PHILLIS in Lloyd's register to find the ownership information, but altho' there is one PHILLIS there in both 1800 and 1801, neither appear to be her.)
I haven't looked up to see which archive holds those old registers. If you can find it, the look-up could be quick because the vessels were entered in date order and I have given you both the date and her number in the sequence (rotation number) which is C167. I *thought* that the 'C' meant that she had been registered in that port before (i.e. C = continues), but I don't see her in the 1792 list.
And ... one slight possible complication, but you need to download the file and look at a few pages to see what I mean. Thos. Goodsir's name is written in above the vessel name. No problem with the lateral direction - names of replacement masters started in the leftmost column so as to have room to enter them all (some vessels had 5 or 6). But ... there seems to be some inconsistency in the vertical direction. Sometimes it is not clear whether that replacement master name belongs to the vessel listed above it or below it. In assigning TG to PHILLIS, I am going by the position of the pre-printed lines on the paper, but there is the possibility that he should be assigned to PITT, which is #C157 in 1793 (registered 7 August 1793) and #375 in 1803.
Clear as mud, init?
Wishing you Good Hunting! in London and I hope that you can find that wreck report for ACADIA in that 5-foot thick file at NMM.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Am Orf now - will bathe in the MUD later and see what I can find.
Best
John
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First bits, of I hope, interest are: That having got the Masters certs for both Silas Angas and John Tillman from The CAIRD Library in Greenwich, I then hopefully went to the LMA to follow them on Captain's Registers - but they did not appear !!! - now on a re read of LMA 's Leaflet No. 50, ( Captain's registers) they do point out that - one reason for not finding them, could be that although they had Master's certs - they had ceased active service before 1869.
In both cases this proved to be true, so with help from the efficient LMA staff, and the fact that I knew that Silas's wife had applied to Trinity House, we had a look at the Registers of Almspeople 1845 - 1971 ( Ms 302191) and sure enough he had entered Deptford Trinity in 1858 - one solved.
Now for John, who after a long search we found had died in 1868 in Sulina Roumania - this was noted on a Probate from Durham - so that tied in- only search now must be old newspapers, problem as always is on John's side he was not the only Captain Tillman sailing the oceans at that moment in time.
Other trawling that might be of general interest I will put on when I have it all sorted out, and I've cleared up the garden, mowed the lawn etc !!!!
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Have got this far, have 'Keys' anything of interest on these ships please ? only other possible , but for 1867 - 1868 304 T Barque ' Lady of the lake', which he in fact might have died on, but no trace yet.
With John Tillman’s Master’s certificate, we had hoped to get a follow up of his voyages, , on the Captain’s Registers in the LMA, after the John & Eleanor had been sold at the end of 1854.
This was not to be, having got the ‘T’ Register, he was not to be found ! Now if as a Master you had a Service Cert ( No exam – if you had already been a Master before 1851)
Then – if you were not still serving in 1869, you would not be on the register, against this if you were still at sea in 1869, all ships back to the date of your Certificate would be entered.
So what happened to John, well by chance we found his Probate Administration, Durham with Executor as Margaret ( his wife). 2nd Oct 1869, with the fact that he had died in Sulina,
Romania ( on the Danube estuary ) on the 11th Oct 1868.
Only possibility now – search newspapers – there are many entries for ‘Tillmans’ including shipping – first one ‘Nimroud’ Captain Tillman, and his rescue of the passengers and crew of the ‘John Soames’ looked interesting, only to eventually find a blow by blow account of the event, and thanking Capt HENRY Tillman for his aid !! ( collection time – didnt know of HENRY ! )
Back to search – and maybe he took a rest in 1855, as first possible that I can find is :
Donna 235 T Snow - built and registered, 1850 in Newcastle – Owners Hunter & Co.
According to Lloyd's Reg. John was on her from 1856 to and including 1861, and also point out on the 1860 issue that ‘Donna’ had some repairs in 1859.
Voyages that I found in Newspapers were :
Left Troon 5th July 1856 for Beyrout
Left Shields 22nd May 1857 137 chs coals for Cronstadt
From Newcastle for Alicante arr Falmouth 16th Oct 1857 ( with damage - heavy storms)
From Newcastle 3rd July 1858 to Port Mahon (Menorca) ISB chs Coals for Saniter & Co.
From Shields 1st Jan 1859 to Ibrail (west bank of Danube – Romania ).
From Shields 17th June 1859 arrived Beyrout 9th July 1859 Coal.
‘Hebe’ 331 T Barque built S/land 1860 – Reg. Shields - Owner T.White
Lloyd's have John on ‘Hebe’ from 1861 to 1864.
Voyages that I found in Newspapers were :
Arr Falmouth from Havana for Antwerp 11th July 1861.
Arr. Tyne from Naples Nov 1861.
From the Tyne to Dunkirk March 1862;
From and for Plymouth Loading at Shields 16Nov 1862
From London to Shields, 12th Nov 1863, put into Harwich loss of Anchor & chain, after repairs sailed for Shields the same day.
‘Geraldine’ 361 T Barque 121.1 x 27.9 x 17.4 built & reg S/land 1864 Owner R.Sheraton
John on Lloyds reg as Master 1865 to mid 1866. Voyages that I found in Newspapers were :
Arr Shields 13th May 1865 from Alexandria.
At Constantinople from Ceres 30th May 1865 – 20th June Arr Shields from Ceres.
Arr Falmouth 18th July from Kustondje for Gloster left 24th July 1865.
Best
John
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Hello John,
Some time back I did look up for you. The only hits in Keys for a "J. Tillman" were JOHN & ELEANOR and AID and I copied out those details for you. If you are going to start collecting Henry Tillman, there is one possible; an "H Tillman" is given as master of convict ship LONDON.
There are entries in Keys for DONNA and for HEBE, but neither mention Tillman.
There is no entry for your GERALDINE or for your LADY OF THE LAKE so both must have been registered elsewhere than the Tyne.
There are two lawsuits on file at NA against Thomas White, owner of the barque HEBE re a collision between HEBE and schooner SINGAPORE but that happened 21 September 1865, so I think it is after Captain Tillman's time. (Wouldn't suggest buying it - I have bought one and it was pages and pages and more pages of legalese, first in longhand and then all repeated in typescript and very expensive. Only a couple of pages of any real interest to me.)
Owner R. Sheraton of GERALDINE was Richard Sheraton and her Official Number was 51163.
I think your LADY OF THE LAKE had Official Number 966 and was owned by William Snowball of Sunderland. Newfoundland has crew lists for her for both 1867 and 1868. If he died whilst her master there should be a notation on that crew list, but once again buying it is pricey. The minimum charge is Cdn $40.00 plus the cost of the images (approx GBP 15 plus the images, don't know what it is in francs or euros). Unfortunately, unlike the GRO where you can specify that you want the certificate only if names xyz are on it, Newfoundland will not tell you in advance - you pays yer money and takes yer chances.
Cheers,
Westoe
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,,, there are many entries for ‘Tillmans’ including shipping – first one ‘Nimroud’ Captain Tillman, and his rescue of the passengers and crew of the ‘John Soames’ looked interesting, only to eventually find a blow by blow account of the event, and thanking Capt HENRY Tillman for his aid !! ( collection time – didnt know of HENRY ! )
That Henry Tillman was presented with a telescope by the BoT for the JOSEPH SOMES rescue. I've got his certificate number. Next time I'm at the library, I'll look it up and see where he was born. He appears to be the same Henry Tillman, aged 28, who'd had Register Ticket #5250, who got his 2nd Mate's Certificate 12th January 1849 (under the voluntary scheme) when his present or most recent ship was ELPHINSTONE, 425 tons (which ship he had just commanded on a voyage from Australia). He died 11 March, 1878 in Hackney.
Cheers,
Westoe
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cont. - John Tillman from yesterday :
So far so good – but the next hit for John on the Newspapers, is :
‘Lady of the Lake’ - of which I can find no Details in Lloyd's List for 1867, which is when he first appears or1868. All that I know is that she is a Barque of 329 T. O/n 966 owner was William Snowball of Sunderland.
From Shields and Sunderland Gazette :- 9th Aug 1867 Loading in South dock Sunderland for Oran, Dobson & Co.
Same paper :- Sailed 23rd Aug 1867 for Oran and Odessa – 430 tons gas coals £ 161. Dobson & Co.
Yarmouth Coastguard, ‘Lady of the Lake’ for Oran off Yarmouth 2nd Sept 1867.
Shields Gazette 23rd Dec: ‘Lady of the Lake’ Off Constantinople, from Oran 7th Dec.
Next entry is in ‘Gloucester Journal’ on the 16th May 1868 :
‘Lady of the Lake’ Arrived from Alexandria with 2000 grs of Wheat for J.P.Kimberly.
Knowing that John died on the 11th Oct 1868, we could assume ( I think ), that from unloading in May, until his death in Sulina, he would have had time to sail North, for another load of Coal, for Sulina and that this was his last ship.
Still looking for a tie between Sunderland ‘Tillmans’ and our Devon ones, and have found another John Tillman born in Exmouth who was also on the ‘ Lady Williamson ?? or are they one and the same !
Studying his Master’s cert, he had already been at sea for 26yrs – and now he had to have a piece of paper to prove it!!! How diligently did he fill in the form in the port of Dublin I ask or was officialdom not his cup of tea ( If he was one of our lot, then , that fits) – live in Sunderland? “Yes” born in Sunderland ? “Yes”, etc, etc.
Best
John
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Orf on a slightly different track -but info, which might prove useful to someone.
While digging around at L.M.A. I came across series of three books giving info on insurances, as given out by :Royal Sun Alliance Insurance Group - ref :
CLC/B/192/F/001/MS11936/385/598790
On which I found for 1792 An INSURANCE for George Tillman ( Father in law of TAMMY).
I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of info that could be gained :
He had a dwelling house , with cellar Barn and Stable and 'LINNEYS' adjoining Sowdon ( Near Lympstone Devon) plus Stock and Utensils in Beavis Barn in Lympstone.
All Thatched and valued at £200.
Note. 'LINNEYS' was a word used in the South West of England for Lean-to sheds.
Best
John
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Hello John,
That Henry Tillman whom I'd said I would look up was born 1820 in Walworth, Surrey, had Register Ticket #5250, Master Certificate #545, granted London 12 January 1948 (so under voluntary scheme). Ancestry does not have his application so cannot tell you his other ships.
Your John Tillman born 6 January(?) 1811, Sunderland says that he was master of AID of Newcastle 1838 to 1845 doing American and Baltic trade. Did you get those images from NMM?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Silas Angas 1787 – 1876. Master Mariner.
Our contact with Silas, is due to Lavinia Tillman ( daughter of George Tillman b.1805 ), who married Silas’s son William in 1867 – at the time William was an Ironmonger’s agent, and living with Father, who had retired from the sea, and had entered the Trinity House cottages Lower Ground at Deptford, London on the 10th Aug 1858, taking up residence in No. 10.
Silas at that time was 71yrs old, had been recommended by Capt Farrer, and had been mainly in the Coal, Baltic and Transport Trades. Ann (nee Sanderson ) his wife was also with Silas. Later they moved into No. 40 Mile End Trinity cottages.
Then when William and Lavinia married, they all moved up North, first to Tyne side, North shields and then to Sunderland, where Silas was living with Ann at 29 Upper Nile Street, until he died on the 15th Jan 1876. By the time Probate was granted on the 30th Jan 1876 Ann’s address was 19, Derwent street.
At a time before the above events Silas was recorded in the Durham Directory – Sunderland section, and under col. Ship’s Masters & Owners.
Below is a list of the ships he sailed on ( as taken from his Claim for Master’s Certificate in 1850 at Sunderland :
Doris 275 Ton reg. S/Land Apprentice 1805 - 1810 Transport/Baltic
Lapwing 243 “ “ Mate 1811 - 1812 America
Amethyst 212 “ “ Master 1812 - 1813 Coal Trade
Adamant 200 “ “ Master 1813 - 1827 Transort/Baltic
Ord 247 “ “ Master 1827 - 1831 Baltic & Coal
Catherine 264 “ N/Castle Master 1832 April
Hampshire 246 “ London Master 1832 Baltic
Orient 164 “ S/Land Master 1833 - 1844 Coal & Hamburg
Hazelrigg 280 “ Newcastle Master 1844 - 1845 America
Charlie Richard 257 T London Master 1845 - 1847 America
Now due to the fact that he was not still at sea in the 1860’s, he would not appear on the Captain’s registers in LMA, so search Newspapers again, result was :
Andrew White. Angas arriving at Newhaven Conn. U.S.A. on 28th May 1848. Followed by:
Exports from Sunderland Andrew White. Angas. Coals for Quebec 7th April 1849. Then :
Oct 26th 1849. The Brig Nicholson. Bell of Hartlepool, for Miramichi, 26 days out, reports that she saw a vessel bearing down, which proved to be the brig Andrew White, Angas of Sunderland from Quebec, in a waterlogged state, and crew completely lamed and exhausted with continual pumping: they put out their boats, but a heavy sea running at the time, the boats sunk alongside After putting their (Nicholson’s) long-boat out they succeeded in rescuing them from their perilous situation in Lat. 49° 38’ N Long. 18° 10’ W.
In the middle of the North Atlantic ! They were the lucky ones to have been picked up.
After the above have not been able to find other ships maybe for Silas that was enough.
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Hello Westoe
Just trying to catch up and arrange, things that I found in London Searches - as above.
Keeping 'Henry .T.' for a rainy day Yes info on AID and J.T. comes of claim for cert of Service, before that he was on the 'Expedition' of Newcastle coasting ( his first voyage as Master).
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Below is info I found on Henry Ellington Jnr ( Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington Wilson's brother! )
Still a bit incomplete ref Suspension of his ticket & was he still on the 'EUNICE' when nit was abandoned - nothing on Pastscape. Don't know if it helps putting all this lot on, but maybe will be useful for someone as a cross ref on ships sometime?
Henry as can be seen by his testimonials of service served on 36 Ships just up to the time that he took his Master’s Ticket. 31 of those ships, (after a four year apprenticeship 1843 - 1847) he was on as an A.B. according to the statement ( however the dittos might have been for speed of writing) and in fact the later ships he was Bosun or Mate. By the time he took his Master’s he had 23 yrs sea time in, and still some to come.
Ships showing on his application for Master’s exam ( where he had served as Mate ) were as follows .
Registered Dates
2756 Mary Sunderland 3rd Nov 1860 to 3rd Dec 1860
21098 Flying Spray Hartlepool 18th Feb 1861 to 25th Oct 1862
18537 Missionary Sunderland 17th Dec 1862 to 4th March 1863
23727 Coldstream do. 10th July 1863 to 20th Oct 1863
& 10th Dec 1863 to 24th Feb 1864
24627 John Hullet London 7th March 1864 to 26th Oct 1864
& 20th Nov 1864 to 25th Jan 1865
Next we have the ships, as taken from the Captain’s Register at LMA.
23508 Dawson 231T. S/land (C) 1865 Baltic, Coasting & France Portugal Spain
27508 Pride of the Wear 373 T. do. (C) 1866 – 67 Med.
12771 Golden Spring 317 T. Shields (C) 1867 – 68 Med, F.P.S.
24532 Mac Donnell 541T S/Land (C) 1870 - 72
1872 - Barque Mac Donnel of Sunderland from Shields to Garrucha is ashore on Haisboro Sands, part of crew left the vessel, Master and three men onboard, assistance has been given- Later, ship reported to be full of water, Beachmen are engaged on salving stores, and stripping vessel. Lloyds mar 12/17Total Wreck 14/21 & 25/12 info received from Yarmouth regarding parts of the vessel washed ashore
Master’s cert suspended for 3 mnth from April 4th 1872
67399 Serantis ? ? (C) 1873
23167 William Simpson 396 T. S/Land (C) to May 1874 America
2805 Thirteen 272 T. do. (C) Sept 18th to Nov 21st 1874 Baltic
No entry for 1875
51181 Achilles 655 T. do. (C) Sept 1st - Nov 28th 1876 2x Trips to Baltic
Steam 130hp Owner E.T.Gourley S/Land.
24627 John Hullet 259 T. do. (C) July 10th - 5th Oct 1877
Sail – Snow Owner Jammy Robertson S/Land
62663 Dorcas NT 467 Gr 723 do. (C) Dec 14th 1877 – Jan 7th 1878 F.P.S.
Iron/Steam 90 sc 189.4 x 27.7 x 15.5
62661 Eunice NT 482 Gr 661 do. (C) Aug 1st 1878 - 1881 F.P.S x 2 then Baltic
Ship ‘Eunice’ is marked as abandoned on the 6/12/1882 Was he still in Command ?
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Hello Westoe
I think you told me that when Capt Paterson was suspended, you were able to find the reason , could you tell me how please as would like to Know about our Henry Ellington ( who was suspended for three months, after the loss of the Mc Donnell.
Also searching more on the story of what happened to 'Andrew White' re Angas, as she had sailed from Quebec, would there be anything in Quebec newspapers , - Since the vessel that picked them up appears to be on it's way there, one assumes that Angas and crew were repatriated from there somehow ? What thinks you ?
Best
John
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Also searching more on the story of what happened to 'Andrew White' re Angas, as she had sailed from Quebec, would there be anything in Quebec newspapers , - Since the vessel that picked them up appears to be on it's way there, one assumes that Angas and crew were repatriated from there somehow ?
Hello John,
The best bet of the online historical Quebec newspapers would have been the "Morning Chronicle and Commercial and Shipping Gazette", but their collection doesn't start until 4 November 1850.
However there is the predecessor - just plain "The Morning Chronicle" and it covers 1849.
Caveat: it's not indexed and searchable like the British newspapers so you will have to download and skim each issue.
Here is the link:
http://collections.banq.qc.ca/ark:/52327/1840545 (http://collections.banq.qc.ca/ark:/52327/1840545)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Interesting, I didn't know that they had a difference on the Master's Ticket between Sail and Steam,
being slightly before my time, but suppose it might have been, can't see why thought, would think that some of the larger ships of sail more difficult to handle than steam. Never mind I am sure he was a very good Shop owner.
On the link you gave for Quebec, they have a questions for An ARCHIVIST section, so since it might be of interest to them also, I send a copy about the rescue by Captain Bell and will see what happens, if nothing then will search page by page, as not a lot left to do in Garden !!!!!
Thanks for the info on 'Ord' Silas would have been on it, when it went aground at the' Hole in the wall' (Our affectionate name for Seaham Harbour), it does say driven ashore, so assume very bad weather. Silas's tonnage for Ord differs a bit but think it must be the one. On same page appears the 'Orient' another of his ships ???
Keep collecting searchables for my next trip - I am owing you some again !
Best
John
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62661 Eunice NT 482 Gr 661 do. (C) Aug 1st 1878 - 1881 F.P.S x 2 then Baltic
Ship ‘Eunice’ is marked as abandoned on the 6/12/1882 Was he still in Command ?
Hello John,
If this is she, no he wasn't.
From:
DISASTERS AT SEA .
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, December 15, 1882; Issue 10850.
"LOSS OF A SUNDERLAND STEAMER
A Lloyd's telegram from Antwerp, dated on Tuesday, states that the Eunice, British steamer, was abandoned in lat. 55 north, long. 7 east. All the crew saved and landed at Antwerp. The Eunice, s, Captain Burden, cleared from Ystadt, Nov. 30 for Ireland. She was a steamer of 661 tons gross, built in Sunderland in 1872, and owned by Messrs Stamp and Co, of Sunderland."
The report of her BoT enquiry is in:
Local and District News .
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, January 12, 1883; Issue 10854.
It's a bit long for me to copy out and you don't really need it as the master's surname is confirmed as 'Burdon'.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Good morning, afternoon, evening or middle of the night - when you read this.
Well that is a blessing, one suspention is enough ( He is one of mine, when all is said and done!!) Since the Captain's register gave Eunice as his last ship the next info I have is on the 1891 Census, where he is a Coal Hawker ? ( I assume it doesn't mean he was 'First-Footing' ) - Anybody Please tell me does this pleasant tradition still continue today? and what do you use instead of coal ?
Ref: Paterson, and your mail of 15/9 - If he could sell the 'William Balls' in 12 days, I reckon he would have been a hell of a shop Owner.
Could you please have another look at 'Orient' ref Angas for me please on pages 549/550 and
Very,Very sorry, but am having some disagreements with my computer and can't find the info you gave me on 'Hazelrigg' , which I now need to finish Silas's write-up.
Best
John
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( I assume it doesn't mean he was 'First-Footing' ) - Anybody Please tell me does this pleasant tradition still continue today? and what do you use instead of coal ?
Hello John,
Yes, it continues - will do until all us old folks are gone, but it has to be 'staged' as it were, and of course we use coal. But you dasn't burn those last few precious lumps - they have to be carefully packed away with the Christmas tree ornaments to be used again next year. Literally "sweeping out the old year" as the clock chimes midnight also continues tho' some of us now need a couple of daytime naps Dec. 31 in order to still be awake at midnight.
I often wonder - does sea coal (residue of long ago wrecks) still wash up on the coastal beaches?
Have sent your other stuff by email.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Well am really happy to here that news, good. and you will just have to keep going, for the sake of tradition.
Awaiting your mail from Hush-puppy !! in the meantime came across the following, which means Old Angas had trouble on the way out as well !
Lloyds List May 1849-Sligo, May 9. The Andrew White, Angas, from Sunderland to Quebec, put in here yesterday leaky and disabled, and with one man washed overboard, having, been struck by a heavy sea whilst lying to during. a gale .
Best
John
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Uhm well, John Tillman's will, ( The one who died in Sulina,Danube 1868 ) didn't exist - he died 'Intestate' , and there was me hoping that he had willed something to Thomasin -so confirming the link ( which showed when she was witness at his wedding along with her Uncle Thomas Warren) - Back to square one again - okay, so try to follow the Warren family - We know for certain that Tammy had a brother called Thomas, and we know they were in Lympstone (Devon), when Tammy was married to Peter Tillman. When Peter died and Tammy married Thomas Goodsir, it appears that Thomas (Tammy's brother) moved North with them, so first I think to try any Warrens that might be in Sunderland, as I found that a certain 'Thomas Warren' and his family in 1852 left Sunderland on the ship 'James Caron' for Australia, to finally settle in Melbourne Maybe - could be the son of our Thomas. In the meantime, will go back to my George Tillman on Devon Forum and see if I can pick up more info on the Warrens there. Best John
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Not sure (and not going to read 11 pages to find out!) whether this is useful here now, but I have posted what appear to be Thomasin Warren's 1782 baptism and her parents' 1781 marriage in Lympstone, Devon, on the Devon board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=666111
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Thanks very much Janey
Just what I was looking for, so Tammy was a Lympstone girl, and rules out a previous tie up between the Warrens and a Tillman from Sunderland.
Best John
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Looks like! Remember, Devon women not infrequently married men who were in Devon in the military or on ships, and apparently Thomasin was one of 'em.
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Hello Westoe
Have just found another of John Tillman's ships on Lloyd's list 1865 just for 4 months :
'Louisa' (Ship) 903 T 171.6 x 34.4 x 20 reg London built by Teighe & Co. South Shields 1860.
Still on searching John's roots - seem to have advanced a bit with thanks to the Devon site :
' The Mystery of Tammy Warren's Children'
Still no sign that John was one of hers, but could belong to a certain Josias Tillman.
Best
John
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Hello 'L'
If you are reading still, think I might have found more of Tammy's Husband's (Thomas Goodsir) ships, which could fit in between ones we already know :
After 'Fortitude Success' he could have been on 'Little Betsey' by DEC 1787 we then know that he took command of 'Phillis', on the 16th Aug 1793.
Next he shows on 'Charlotte' on the 31st March 1797 before being on the 'Hope' 1798 to 1804.
Lastly is ,'Vicissitude' where on the 23rd Aug 1808 she was got off the Goodwin Sands,
then as we already know - 'Spring' - 'Malvina' - 'Transfer' - 'Eleanor' - and 'The Brothers'.
Newest in bold came from further searching Lloyd's List, but due to the fact that he died before Master's certificates came about, I can find no back-up.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe, have found another puzzle for you !
In searching for Thomasin's Third child Thomas, up to this week, all I knew was that he had in 1853 married Mabel Joplin, but from then on could not find them on any census, until I came across a
RG 9/4488 - when translated stands for :
List of Officers, Crew, Marines, as well as Passengers and visitors on board on the Night of Sunday, April 7th 1861.
The ship ? was called 'Pembroke' and Thomas was down as a Caulker's mate, married, 29 Yrs, born Sunderland. Question what was the Pembroke, was it Royal Navy, or a training establishment ?
What makes me ask, is that amongst the others on the page, you have a Sailmaker -Master at Arms - Quartermaster - Captain Mizzen Top - Captain Main Top - Coxwain Pinnace - Captain Fore castle etc ( reminds me of my time on the 'Conway' ).
Next, which I should have found first!! came BT 116/31 - that showed that Thomas in 1853 ( the year he was married) was on the ' City of Rotterdam' and then in 1856, on the same page he is 24yrs old and from Sunderland, a Carpenter aboard ' Travancore' reg. London.
Lastly on a BT 334 (box 11) he died onboard the 'Tudor Prince' 74726 in May 1895 on the same ship and within a few months - Steward - Howey and Soucrip also died - a nasty history there ?
Best
John
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I don't know whether this is part of your question or what might be a nasty history, but if you do a search of the 1901 census using nothing but TUDOR PRINCE as keywords, you find the people on board in that census:
Henry James Claridge 28 officer in charge
Alice May Claridge 24 wife of
William Edward McAvoy 41 steward
Albert Wilson 23 engineer
Constantine Lucas 38 boatswain
Vito Lazzari 46 able seaman
at Salthouse Dock in Liverpool Lancashire.
If you go to the next page of the census book, you see that the Tudor Prince was based in Newcastle on Tyne, a steamer, and for "how employed": Mediterranean, with the notation "For." beside it.
Also not sure whether this is what you're meaning, but if you look at the first page of the census book for Thomas Ellington in 1861, it states that it is an enumeration book for the Royal Navy, name of ship Pembroke, etc. There are Navy personnel on board, and then after those pages, a couple of pages of Royal Marines and a couple of pages, at the end of the 15 pages in all, of "boy first class" ranging in age down to 15. It seems to be a regular Navy vessel.
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Have just found another of John Tillman's ships on Lloyd's list 1865 just for 4 months :
'Louisa' (Ship) 903 T 171.6 x 34.4 x 20 reg London built by Teighe & Co. South Shields 1860.
Hello John,
Apologies for the long silence - Have been trying to get the bulbs planted (bought far too many daffs this fall) and the lilies split (over 100 and they're all been reproducing like rabbits) and the garden in general put to bed. Still haven't got the storm windows on the front of the house and we had freezing sleet last night.
Your LOUISA being London registered, Keys is no help and in that BT file, they stopped naming the masters partway through 1855, so no joy there either. So .... I'm sad to say ... I haven't any goodies for you this message.
Wishing you Good Hunting! in Devon.
Cheers,
Westoe
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In searching for Thomasin's Third child Thomas, up to this week, all I knew was that he had in 1853 married Mabel Joplin, but from then on could not find them on any census, until I came across a
RG 9/4488 - when translated stands for :
List of Officers, Crew, Marines, as well as Passengers and visitors on board on the Night of Sunday, April 7th 1861.
The ship ? was called 'Pembroke' and Thomas was down as a Caulker's mate, married, 29 Yrs, born Sunderland. Question what was the Pembroke, was it Royal Navy, or a training establishment ?
Erm ... RN isn't my specialty, but it seems to me that this PEMBROKE may have been a shore establishment at Chatham, Kent.
What makes me ask, is that amongst the others on the page, you have a Sailmaker -Master at Arms - Quartermaster - Captain Mizzen Top - Captain Main Top - Coxwain Pinnace - Captain Fore castle etc ( reminds me of my time on the 'Conway' ).
Next, which I should have found first!! came BT 116/31 - that showed that Thomas in 1853 ( the year he was married) was on the ' City of Rotterdam' and then in 1856, on the same page he is 24yrs old and from Sunderland, a Carpenter aboard ' Travancore' reg. London.
Lastly on a BT 334 (box 11) he died onboard the 'Tudor Prince' 74726 in May 1895 on the same ship and within a few months - Steward - Howey and Soucrip also died - a nasty history there ?
Erm ... do you mean TUDOR PRINCE of the Prince Line, built by Joseph L Thompson and Sons Ltd., at Sunderland? If so, yet another reason to make that trip north - lots of info on her in TWAS catalogue.
13 DS.JLT/4/7/204 SubSeries Specifications for yard no. 204, 'Tudor Prince' 1884
14 DS.JLT/4/7/204/1 Item Hull specification for yard no. 204, 'Tudor Prince' c1884
15 DS.JLT/4/7/204/2 Item Engine specification for yard no. 204, 'Tudor Prince' 17 September 1884
16 DS.JLT/4/9/45 Item Particulars and cost book for yard no. 204, 'Tudor Prince' 1884
17 DS.JLT/4/PL/1/204/9 Item Profile plan for yard no. 204 'Tudor Prince' c1884
And, being as she was regularly on the West Indies, Jamaica, Vera Cruz run, fever is a possibilty for the deaths.
Cheers,
Westoe
Best
John
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From: http://www.histarmar.com.ar/LineasPaxaSA/339-PrinceLine.htm (http://www.histarmar.com.ar/LineasPaxaSA/339-PrinceLine.htm)
Tudor Prince (1) 1884 1902 sold to Sweden renamed Probus. 1,521
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John
HMS Pembroke was originally launched in 1812, and following her conversion to steam saw active service during the Crimean War as part of the Baltic Fleet. In 1861 she was the HQ vessel for the Harwich Coastguard District.
Martin
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Hello Janey
Happy to hear from you again, and many thanks for the info, both on Pembroke and Tudor Prince.
I got the Pembroke from FindMyPast, but you only get the sheet of the person you ask for - so to get all the sheets, would have cost rather a lot, and at that point I had no idea how many there were.
1873 Hulks & Establishments.
HMS PEMBROKE, Originally built in 1812 as a 74 gun, she was rebuilt at Portsmouth as a 60 gun steam block ship in 1854-55 and later reduced to 25 guns.
Based at Harwich as a Coastguard depot ship in 1860, she later removed to Sheerness, where she was Flag Ship for the Nore, and then to Chatham in 1873 where she took over duties as Receiving Ship for the Nore Command, and carried the flag of the Admiral Superintendent. At some time during this period it must be assumed that she was hulked. See below for 30 April 1903 for the details regarding the transfer to the RN Barracks Chatham.
Calkers’ Mates pay = £2- 11s- 8p per month - £ 30 – 8s – 4p Per annum
Source: Navy List 1860, Page 224
Caulkers and Caulkers' Mates to be allowed Tool money at the Rate of 3d a day, in addition to their pay, if employed in Carpenter's Crews and in possession of Tools.
The above is borrowed from the very excellent site below, which gives all anyone needs to know about the Royal Navy, and must have taken a lot of dedicated work to put together.
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html
In my dotage, I hadn't thought of your efficient idea, that you used on finding info on Tudor Prince
really very good, sure will be able to use that system to advantage also another time.
Still no sign of Mabel Ellington (nee JOPLIN ) maybe she just went back to Sunderland and opened a Department Store !
Thanks very much again Janey
Best
John
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Thanks Martin
Had just found the excellent site on All Navy info, this afternoon - bit of a coincidence, being in Baltic fleet as HMS Conway ( ex HMS Nile ) was also involved.
Best
John
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Hello again Westoe
Well, us old salts, don't know nuffing technical about gardening you see, so only allowes to dig, mow lawns, trim branches, and carry out other instructions as given by wife - so you are rather privileged - feel happy!
That cold already where you are, and storm windows - sounds more like the far north !
You where about correct with Pembroke, the site I put on Janey's post, is well worth a look at - nearest I got to Navy, was RNR, when on 'Conway'.
Oh all right! I will try and get up to the North East next year, with Luck !
Best
John
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You where about correct with Pembroke, the site I put on Janey's post, is well worth a look at - nearest I got to Navy, was RNR, when on 'Conway'.
Yes, I know it well. Paul is one of the stalwarts of the Mariners List and is the go-to man for anything RN.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Uhm !
Appear to have found Peter Ellington, last of Thomasin's children - if it is he, then he was on the 'Invicta' 58087 reg Sunderland, when it was lost with all hands (12) on 24 th Dec 1867.
Like his elder brother Thomas, he was also a Carpenter. BT 153.
Have searched but can find no further info on the ship or where and in what circumstances it was lost.
Best
John
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It looks to me as though the loss of the Invicta of Sunderland may have been a bit earlier in 1867, late September, unless there was another similar incident the same year. There are several newspaper reports about it, eg Shields Daily Gazette on 30 September 1867 reports finding one of the ship's boats and later gives more details including full list of crew with addresses. It's on the British Newspaper Archive site.
Drosybont
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Hello John,
Hmmm. Perhaps there were some survivors, picked up some days later and that news did not make the newspapers. Either that, or there were two vessels, both named INVICTA of Sunderland afloat in the fall of 1867. Or ... the source below got it wrong. (Smile) Before taking your pick, I would compare the list of names in the Shields Gazette (which, apologies, I am not able to check, not having a subscription) to the list in BT 153.
I'm sending you an image by email from the January 1868 edition of The Shipwrecked Mariner (quarterly magazine) showing GBP 24 paid out in relief to seamen of that vessel.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, John,
From TNA catalogue:
Registers of wages and effects of deceased seamen are in BT 153-BT 155.
Registers of seamen's deaths are in BT 156-BT 157.
I have to hand the whole of the file BT 154/6 which is:
Indexes to [deceased] seamen's names: C - E
01 February 1866 - 31 December 1867
The *only* Ellington listed in 1867, is a P. Ellington in Dec. 1867, which *might* be your lad or not. To be sure you would need to download the companion file that names the vessels - I think it will also be GBP 3.36 by credit card. Can't tell you the exact number right now. Don't do anything yet until I have time to go through my memory sticks. I may already have bought that file.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello John,
Ah .... now I've got it. I've found mine - I hadn't bought the file after all - just specific individual pages from TNA. And I'd advise you not to bother because:
1) they charge 10 pound per image,
2) the images are very poor quality because they give you a double page spread of a very large ledger and by the time you've magnified it to read, it's gone all pixellated, and
3) there is no information in that ledger to absolutely nail his identity i.e. no birthdate, no home address, no name of next of kin.
You found this lad at FindMyPast in the maritime deaths, the transcriptions of BT 153, correct? And it gave the ship name as INVICTA of Sunderland? And the date as Dec. 1867?
I had done mine the more roundabout way because I didn't have FindMyPast and didn't know that they had indexed and transcribed BT 153. I bought all parts of BT 155 (the indices to the ship names in BT 153) and all parts of BT 154 (the indices by surnames of the deceased seamen), read them all line by line, picked out my ships, used the page number cross-references to buy images from TNA.
Transcription error may explain the difference in dates. There are four dates in the actual ledger:
1) date of engagement i.e. the date that his name was entered onto the crew agreement
2) presumed date of death (that would be September 1867)
3) date that his wages were paid into a shipping office
4) date that all this information was sent to the BoT (that could have been December 1867)
and it's possible that the transcriber wrote down the wrong one.
The best bet to establish if he were really your lad would have been the crew agreement, but .... I've checked the CLIP website for you and it doesn't seem to have survived. So ... erm ... don't know what to suggest next. Even sending for the death certificate doesn't seem worthwhile, because BT 153 would have been the source for the information on that certificate.
But I would still take that list of crew names published in the Shields Gazette and run them all through the maritime deaths in FindMyPast to see how many of them survived as per The Shipwrecked Mariner because a total payout of 24 pound suggests to me that there were multiple survivors. Either that or another INVICTA of Sunderland. Well .... maybe there was a second Ellington in the crew? (smile) Yes, I know .... faint hope that, but hope springs eternal.
Cheers,
Westoe
P.S. Wait! Stop the Presses! I'm wrong! The crew agreement DOES survive. It's at TNA in file BT 99/411. It would be worthwhile to buy that I think - can't be any more expensive than buying one from Newfoundland (smile).
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Thanks Drosybont and Westoe
Had hoped that this might have been another 'Transfer' and Goodsir story, where I eventually found that they were all saved, - but I think unfortunately no -some dates don't quite tie up ( like ship sailed on 23rd Sept, when Peter is down as signing on the 24th Sept ).
What I have cleaned so far is that 'Invicta' reg. 58087 an Iron Barque of 354 T built in south dock Sunderland sailed from S/land on her Maiden voyage to Alexandria on the 23rd Sept ? 1867.
Her long boat was picked up by the fishing smack 'Pet' and taken into Yarmouth, crew of 'Pet' reported seeing Masts of 'Invicta' on Haisborough Sands on 27th Sept.
Crew as follows (on BT153) :
Alexander Brown Master Age signed on
George.N. Cook Mate 23 18.9.67
Jas Pierce Bosun 34 21.9.67
P.Ellington Carp 35 24.9.67
Hy.Brown Cook/Steward 32 21.9.67
Rob Smith AB 23 "
Chas.Brown " 27 "
R.Langley " 22 "
Chas Gray " 23 "
Geo.Johnson " 28 "
Exion Emmerson App. 18 11.8.67
Fras.Dixon " 16 19.9.67
Rather sad
Best
John
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Sept 23/'67 vs. Sept. 24/'67 ? -a mere bagatelle, John. Vessels often left the harbour ( to meet published sailing dates or to take advantage of the tide) but then had to hang around outside because they didn't have their full complement of crew aboard. Perhaps the originally-signed carpenter was one of the drunken 'no-shows' and Peter was brought out as a replacement. That's something else the crew list would tell you. And ... since INVICTA was on her maiden voyage, Peter's previous ship (there's a column for that in the crew list) would have had to have been something else and that will take you back a bit further.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Drosybont
Could you let me know please on which actual article in newspapers, will I find the crews addresses,
working on FindMyPast and running out of credits fast!! Or if you can - just P.Ellington's address.
As although crew list exist at TNA the BT 99/411 has not yet been digitalised, but have sent for an estimate anyway, as Westoe says it should have more info on Peter.
Thanks in advance
Best
John
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Sorry, I've been dipping in and out of this in between work, evening out etc. In the Shields Gazette Monday 30 September under headline 'Supposed loss of the barque Invicta, of Sunderland, with all hands', in list of crew under heading 'Seamen':
Peter Ellington, 21 South Johnson Street, Sunderland
Hope this helps.
Drosybont
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Hello Drosybont
Thank you very much indeed, for taking the time, once you have been retired for some length of time and get stuck on the computer, one forgets that people you are talking to on the net, don't have the free time that you do - so tis me who says sorry.
Looks like it is certainly our Peter - what a pity though !
Best and Thanks again, hope the evening went well.
John
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Hello Westoe
Have been in touch with the very helpful ladies at Local Studies, but they could not come up with anything more than I already have, but they did suggest that maybe the 'Sunderland Maritime Heritage group' might have more info, so have sent a mail to them.
Contacted TNA re. File BT 99/411 - but it has not yet been digitalised, but the will give me a quote !
This is what I have so far on 'Invicta' :
What I have cleaned so far is that 'Invicta' reg. 58087 an Iron Barque of 354 T built by Messres Ilff ,Mounsey & co in south dock Sunderland for Mears & Foreman sailed from S/land on her Maiden voyage to Alexandria and Odessa Loaded 630T Large Coals - £325 for Lumsden Byers &Co.on the 23rd Sept 1867, and was lost with all hands on Hasborough Sands.
Her long boat was picked up by the fishing smack 'Pet' and taken into Yarmouth, crew of 'Pet' reported seeing Masts of 'Invicta' on Haisborough Sands on 27th Sept.
One other report stated that the owners & friends had gone out on her on the 23rd and that she had sailed well and reached 11Knots in ‘Sunderland Roads’ ( where ever that might be).
Another suggested (hopefully) that since she had three boats onboard, and only one was found, that as the wind after the event happened, had veered to the West – they might still turn up on the other side of the North sea.
Best
John
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Fogot to ask, on your collection of BT 154s did you by chance have anything on 'Henry George Ellington' (Thomasin's husband), who I cannot find. Disappeared somewhere between 1834 ( when Thomasin is still using 'Ellington' as a surname ) and 1841 - when she isn't.
Best
John
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Another suggested (hopefully) that since she had three boats onboard, and only one was found, that as the wind after the event happened, had veered to the West – they might still turn up on the other side of the North sea.
Hello John,
Hmmmnn. That supports what I was suggesting via The Shipwrecked Mariner, but I don't know how one would go about following up that lead.
Re your other question: no, don't think so but will look again.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Had just come to the end on this post, when it suddenly vanished off the screen ??
So will try again !
It was a happy thought, but since the B.O.T. left it until December before entering it in their books,I still have great doubts, re the Shipwreck Mariners Soc, maybe since they will have seen the addresses of all the crew entered in the newspaper, they sent £2 to each family ?
Although I now have his address, since it falls between two census & in that time they changed the street and numbering (From South Johnson St to Johnson street) no Chance to find relatives.
Strange though - his sister in law, when she died 30yrs later was buried from that address!!
Best
John
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It was a happy thought, but since the B.O.T. left it until December before entering it in their books,I still have great doubts, re the Shipwreck Mariners Soc, maybe since they will have seen the addresses of all the crew entered in the newspaper, they sent £2 to each family ?
Erm ... no, not quite accurate. It was not the BoT that left it until December to enter the details in their books. The wages would have been paid in to a shipping office (usually the nearest one to the owner's place of business) and then the shipping offices made quarterly returns to the BoT.
It was not the mandate of The Shipwrecked Mariners Society to make payments to the families. Their funds were used to directly relieve surviving shipwrecked mariners - clothe them, feed them and transport them back to their homes.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Ump Good that sounds still promising - but without knowing even if he was married, how to find ?
Anybody any good ideas please ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
This isn't any answer to your last question, but was he by any chance Peter Tillman Ellington, baptized 1833, living Laurence Street, Sunderland?
What about baptisms, marriages for his nieces and nephews - checking names of godparents/sponsors/witnesses?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Yes Westoe
That is the one - but of the kids still living only Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington, appears to have had children all with the surname of WILSON, have tried to search those, but it appears that the North East coast, was full of Wilsons at that time, uhmmmmmmmm maybe still is - anyone know the above Lady please, last address that I have is in 1881, living at Brunswick Cottage, Chirton, Northumberland with Husband Joseph, and son Henry Wilson, age 29 unmarried a Shipsmith(builder). b. Spittal.
And does anybody know the relationship of house numbers on the 1861 Census for South Johnson Street Bishopwearmouth Sunderland and those on the 1871 Census - same street but has now lost the 'South' - am looking for who was living at No. 21 Johnson Street Please .Best
John
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Hello John,
Harrummph!!! Be It Resolved:
that there will be no more remarks passed about "Westoe's Wicked Smile"
because that of "Veryoldseadog" is Infinitely More Wicked!
(yes (smile) I've noticed that you have finally joined The Mariners List).
I'm dyin' of bronchitis over here and you've had Green Beastie and I outside in the cold and the dark for half an hour, trying to piggyback on an unlocked wireless signal long enough to download that old photographs link you've just sent me. Thank you (I think), but having seen those four unknown children playing in the street, I will now wait until I am back at a proper PC to investigate the site further. Got my hopes up, you did - fished me in proper.
Here's hoping you get some results to your query on The Mariners List. I would suggest also posting the PEMBROKE query there because Paul Benyon, who is a member there is an expert on things RN.
BT 154 didn't start early enough to be any help with Ellington senior.
Cheers,
Westoe
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P.S. I'd also try posting your Johnson Street/South Johnson Street query as a separate thread in the County Durham section. That sounds like one that would be right up Stan Mapstone's alley.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Oh dear !Oh dear ! Bronchitis nasty, - have same problem at times - yet another JOY of old age! well hot whisky and lemon ( and I was going to say take the green beastie and go to bed ) but then thought that it sounded a bit kinky - so I didn't !
Have sent off a PM to Stan as suggested, if anyone would know as you say , it would be him.
I found a possible marriage for Peter, but at Sheerness, why not, his brother we know was there on Pembroke - however it is not too clear, age is correct, occupation down as Shipwright (possible), Father down as Master Mariner but with first name as Peter also !
Have only just crept on to the 'Mariner's List' so will see if I get any fish first before making a nuisance of myself !
Have also been on to TNA to see if they can transliterate the BT 115/11 of John Tillman for me - if those numbers are the 'Aid' then we would be home and dry, on him coming from Devon.
You never know, if you could find the street those children were playing on - they, just might just be some of yours ?
Right send out for another bottle and get better soon
Best
John
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Correction to previous info as given on Captain John Tillman ( Shipowner ) and son of Sunderland :
‘Lady of the Lake’ Arrived from Alexandria with 2000 grs of Wheat for J.P.Kimberly.
Knowing that John died on the 11th Oct 1868, we could assume ( I think ), that from unloading in May, until his death in Sulina, he would have had time to sail North, for another load of Coal, for Sulina and that this was his last ship, but no it wasn’t, in fact he died on the 'Royal Arch' of Sunderland . 58142 – Built North Hylton Sunderland in 1868 (so this was her maiden voyage) a Barque of 333 Tons – call sign H.C.S.V. John was also the Owner, as he was of the’ Lady of the Lake’. A Capt John .A .Keer Master of the ‘Ethel’ was witness to John’s death, but there was no cause on the cert from the Consul in Sulina;
Son John the Architect, went on to run the ships till at least 1876
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Glad to see you back, even if still staggering a bit ? To answer your Question - well, there is a lady 'down under' ( as we say ) who has researched the Sunderland Tillmans before and was able to give me the info on John's death and ship he was on, the rest came from searching 'clip', where I found that up to a 1876 entry John Tillman Jnr was sole owner, then there was also a letter for sale on 'thebay' from John Jnr in giving a recommendation for an Apprentice "who had served on both their ships" - 'The Lady of The Lake' and 'Royal Arch' - if they had others - I don't yet Know.
Best
John
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That's perfectly splendid, John! A great step forward.
Cheers,
Westoe
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P.S. John,
The thought occurs. Is there significance in the name ROYAL ARCH? Since John Tillman was her sole and first owner, would he not have had some say in the naming of her? Is that perhaps a clue that he was a member of a Masonic lodge? His son John definitely was.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZjHcM_LXhjEC&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=masonic+Sunderland+Tillman&source=bl&ots=kUsR_lh9IX&sig=jjExxHqLoI9W99IPsjyboiolFKA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wu6cUpoS5qjIAbfCgMgI&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=masonic%20Sunderland%20Tillman&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZjHcM_LXhjEC&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=masonic+Sunderland+Tillman&source=bl&ots=kUsR_lh9IX&sig=jjExxHqLoI9W99IPsjyboiolFKA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wu6cUpoS5qjIAbfCgMgI&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=masonic%20Sunderland%20Tillman&f=false)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Third attempt, other two having failed.
Could be right, on Masons or Son might have put up the money, and so allowed to name it ? (As he carried on the two ships after Father died).
Change of subject -Thomas Ellington - he is down as being on 'The City of Rotterdam' in 1853.
Problem - there are two possibles -
A Schooner - Iron bolts built and registered at Yarmouth in 1852 - 93 Tons - Coaster A1 Owner Greenwood No. 6237, this might be the one I would put my money on ( As it is not on a
bus run as is the second) - only problem with this is Thomas was a Carpenter, and would a ship of this size carry a 'Chippy' ?
Other is this :
City of Rotterdam
Built by: Ditchburn & Mare, Blackwall
Yard No.
Launched: 1845
Tonnage: 156 8/10
Length: 108 5/10 feet
Breadth: 22 feet
Depth: 11 1/10 feet
Machinery: 30h.p. by Maudslay. 90 ihp. Propelled by steam with an engine room 12 5/10 feet in length and weighed 37 tons.
Decks: 1 1/4 decks.
Built of: Iron.
Type: Schooner rigged.
Registered: 2nd April 1846, Number 94 in London.
Other info: Had 3 masts.
Shield figure head.
Certificate granted on 26th March 1846 Number 99.
Crew 12 men
Official No. 92.
History: 1846. Built for ‘The London, Rotterdam & Harlinger Steam Schooner Shipping Company owned by James Laming, William Margetson and John Margetson of Mark Lane, London.
1845. London to Rotterdam service.
1845, Stephen Cook, Master.
19th July 1846. Sailed from Gravesend for Rotterdam.
21st September 1846. Entered inwards at Custom House from Rotterdam. Entered outwards for loading same day for Rotterdam.
This is of course before The 'Travancore' and the 'Pembroke
Without getting out of bed, what thinks you ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
Erm ... I'd have to give that some thought. Have you already knocked out of the running this one?
124 ton CITY OF ROTTERDAM, ON 2735, registered Sunderland.
On another subject, any interest in having a crewlist of DAGMAR of Liverpool, dated 26 November, 1880, with 64 year old David Goodsir aboard as AB, previous ship ARCADIA? No? hmmn, pity.
Wickedly Smiling Westoe
P.S. On my way to dr's appt. Will send it to you when I get back.
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Oh dear! Westoe
You have got me rewriting everything again - must be a strange story ref David then - eagerly awaiting. Will reciprocate, when the expensive 'Invicta' crew list arrives.
You are sounding better - re your p.s. at least you are confident - of coming back from the Doctor!
Best
John
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Finally!!! John,
I've been waiting for you to come back online and see that last message before writing again - thinking of you drooling and pawing the ground in impatient anticipation (grin).
Go here: http://www.mun.ca/mha/1881/crewfindingaid1881.php (http://www.mun.ca/mha/1881/crewfindingaid1881.php)
Click on "New Search"
Enter "Goodsir" in "Last Name" box and "Submit Query"
Click on "Form View" in last line of DAGMAR entry and hey! presto! 9 images chockful of interesting stuff.
Was Harry Fitzgerald Goodsir any connexion?
Regards,
Westoe
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Well, what do you make of it, John? Working his way home after finishing up the paperwork resulting from loss of ARCADIA?
The men would have been discharged as soon as the vessel was deemed to be a constructive loss, but the master would have had to hang around until whatever was salvaged could be liquidated and the insurance claim filed. And then perhaps he didn't have enough money left to pay for a passenger passage home so had to work his way home. Or perhaps he'd been injured when ARCADIA was lost and had to wait until recovered to try to get home. That would have depleted his funds.
Remind me again what date ARCADIA burned to the waterline. David signed on to DAGMAR 17 December 1880, ratified 22 February 1881 by British Vice-Consul in Pensacola (is that Florida, USA?), discharged 2 May 1881 in Shields. And you've got two signature samples for him.
Plus all those samples of other forms of the day like "Transmission of Seaman's Wages" - yes, all in all, a nice serendipitous find. D'ye blame me for wanting to crow a bit?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Uhm!!!!
Stop crowing! - he was just taking a paid holiday in Florida He! He!
In fact there was one crewman who didn't turn, another who deserted, -ship left Shields 26th Nov 1880, he joined on 17th December 1880 at Plymouth, but wasn't officially signed on until they got to the Consul in Pensacola - they were there for a month, so he was either lolling about on the beach, or spending his insurance money in the nightclubs etc. ?
Feb 1873 Arcadia reported burn to waterline - true that Mate and crew were picked up by the'Rhone' and dropped into Liverpool. No sign of when David went home, but his navigation wasn't so bad that he went from Spain to Plymouth to Florida to get to South Shields - even I know that!!!
But a big thank you for that info.
Best
John
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p.s. Can't find a trace of Harry Fitzgerald Goodsir b. 1865, doesn't seem to fit with our lot, but as normal I might just have missed one - though name doesn't run in family, maybe the Scots branch.
Best
John
pps Not sure if that row of weird faces above are meant to be Father Christmas or the French strikers ? (big smile)
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Ah Phooey Fiddlesticks! I was so excited about finding David there and his last ship being ARCADIA, that I made the newbie's mistake of "assuming" - assuming that DAGMAR followed closely on ARCADIA. I shoulda shoulda shoulda gone back through all the posts and gotten David's timeline fixed in my head before posting. Awlright - I've stopped crowing and am now eating humble pie. Still ... it was a nice find.
Who's on strike now and why?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Stop eating humble pie (a) is not a cure for the Bronchi (b) is not needed as info very ,very helpful o
on building a picture of David - - However 'we have a problem here!' he has put down ARcadia where as we have Acadia ( both names are used at that time, as both are on Lloyd's reg - but not his ship? )
He maybe needed that trip, poor man, had lost his wife and daughter in 1871, his ship in 1873 and his eldest son in 1875, also, it is noted on his death in 1883 that he died after a long and painful illness, so possible a slip of hand on the 'R', or maybe intentional - either way 1873 fits what we have on 'Acadia' and his son's trips on the same ship also.
Strikes uhm yes - you have to have a reason? Seriously though - The 'Red bonnets of Bretagne' are on strike against the government's stupid Eco Tax, which would effect them very badly
- The Railways, next week, not sure why, - Christmas shopping maybe ? and the Teachers, - just had enough of government interference and can't stand kids anymore!! don't blame any of them and Wish them all a Happy Christmas.
Best
John
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However 'we have a problem here!' he has put down ARcadia where as we have Acadia ( both names are used at that time, as both are on Lloyd's reg - but not his ship? )
Good Morning, John,
Hmmnn. So we have a gap of approx. 7 tears in his working life, 1873 - 1880. It is possible that after losing ACADIA in 1873, that he also shipped aboard an ARCADIA, say, c.1879, in a non-master position, which is a needle-in-haystack situation. If we could, we might spend years in the bowels of archives going through hundreds of thousands of crew lists and still not find what's needed to close that gap.
BUT ... I am a firm believer in
a) Serendipity and
b) casting my bread upon the waters aka RAOKs (random acts of kindness). "What goes around, comes around." (Smile) Over the years, I've had a lot of soggy bread come back to me.
Another stroke of luck will come eventually - another lot of records digitized or a tip from another researcher. (That's where an uncommon surname like Goodsir is a Godsend.) After all, I hadn't even known about this source until two days ago when i stumbled on it - found two for myself, one for you and two for a fellow I've been helping by email. (Smile) If we wanted 'easy' hobbies, we could take up building birdhouses or summat.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Yes, due to the statement that he had a long and painful illness - think will go with what we have got, and leave your soggy bread for the moment ( unless you've dipped it in Whisky that is! )
When I get crew list and with the great detective work done by Janey will write up more news on Peter Ellington in a bit
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Hope your WC is improving ( Ooops! - should not use acronyms or abbreviations ) but you know what I mean.
My turn now, down with A "cute" Sciatica, made too many bird tables !!!
Our friend on ' WC Balls' who was sanctioned for his problem with the ship - how and where did you manage to get the info, as want to get full info on the 'Arcadia' s wrecking, and what might have happened to David.
Happy Husking
Best
John
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Hello John,
What I have came from the newspapers. When you looked for ACADIA before at MNN, perhaps you didn't find anything because it should have been ARCADIA. But?? ...didn't BoT only hold inquiries on losses that occurred in British waters?? ACADIA/ARCADIA was lost off coast of Spain, was she not?
Sorry to disappoint.
Cheers,
Westoe
P.S. Did your David have a cousin, also named David Goodsir and just a few years younger, who was a North Sea pilot?
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Hello Westoe
Surely Lloyd's then must have held some sort of enquiry, if insurance was involved though, and thought that BOT would be concerned somehow, if was British registered ship ?
Oh good another one ! see what you meant about never ending projects ! could be, please tell me more, what age are we talking about ? had found his brother William married in 1840, and other brother Thomas in 1835, but had not yet followed them up. Or could it be David himself !! HELP
Best
John
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Hello John,
Three images from Google Books sent to you by email. There is at least one other mention in Google Books, but I didn't save it yet.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Reckon it is our David as age is +/- one year only, so that is what he did in his spare time then.
Best
John
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Sorry, John, I can't send the others. They are on the "Connected Histories" website and I don't have a subscription to "House of Commons Parliamentary Papers" database.
I'd have assumed that this David Goodsir was one of the Scottish Goodsirs, except that in the image I sent you, he was listed under Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
I've no idea whether there were licences for pilots which might give date and place of birth. I've not had occasion to research a pilot mariner yet.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Am completely 'bog' eyed having trawled the site below for any of my M.M's but no luck, a lot on the site though also - very small stuff, what caught my eye in whizzing thru was, in case any are yours :
'Henry Brand' 1876-8 Master William Chatwin of S.Shields.
'Louisa' 62226 1872 Master Z.Barnes of S.Shields.
'Ridesdale' 27368 1863 Master Jn Reeder of N.Shields.
'Salisbury' 5612 1870-2 Master Chas Dawson N.Shields
'Number 1' 13760 1866 Master Samuel Stacey of N.Shields
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=043-clasa&cid=-1#-1
Best
John
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When last at L.M.A I just happened to pick up their leaflet No. 51 for Records of Trinity house Corporation ( mainly because I was looking for Silas Angas and his stay in Deptford Almshouse - which I found in Ms302191 ).
However I am now searching more info on David Goodsir, who is down as a North Sea Pilot in 1877. Now it seems that Trinity House, examined Masters & Mates, and could grant exemption certificates and this you would find on Ms 30182 & Ms 30184 - so when I next get to LMA, can look them up, but it also appears that Trinity house did not control all ports - this includes Newcastle, where if anybody happens to be passing Tyne & Wear Archives, Blandford House, Blandford Square, in Newcastle? on their way to do Christmas shopping, and fancies a quick look to see what they have on our David I would be very grateful, as my chances of getting there are nul.
Still awaiting crew list from TNA for 'Invicta' and will post Peter Ellington's write up when I get it.
Best
John
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Hello John,
Good Luck on the cyber-appeal in your last. Thank you for thinking of me while combing through TNA website. No, none of those were mine, ... but ... having put those names on here, you may have done an RAOK for a newbie Googling any of those names in future.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
As old saying goes "If you don't try - you don't get - and if you don't get - well at least you have tried" !!
Now on that subject, I have notice of recent times, that many organisations reply to your request, by " we will pass this to our Archivist" - and then Nothing!!, so one must assume that somewhere in each organisation's computer there exist a waste paper basket marked 'Achivist'.
So although in the past I had many times at sea been grateful for the efficiency of Trinity House, when I sent a request, and got the above reply, I didn't have much hope.
But no, only a couple of hours later Neil Jones their Archivist replied fully,(as you can see by the copy of his e mail, which could be of use to others? ) Faith restored! Thanks Neil.
" Thank you for your enquiry. Trinity House's historical pilotage records are held at the London Metropolitan Archives. LMA hold a large amount of Trinity House records, and the following sources are particularly relevant:
Registers of pilots' licences (outports) 1808-46 & 1810-76 (Ms 30174) covering different ports (Both London and outport registers give pilot's age, residence, qualifications and physical description and are indexed in Ms 30173B, held on Reading Room open shelves.)
Returns of pilotage listing pilots (by port) 1854-1912 (Ms 30198) giving name, age and qualification
Pilotage Committee minutes (1809-1969) (Ms 30158)
However, it may be that he was licensed by Trinity House Newcastle, which, although similar in name and function, is an entirely separate organisation. For more information, please visit their website at
http://www.trinityhousenewcastle.org.uk/enquiries.asp#familyandhistory
I am sorry that we could not be of greater assistance, but wish you luck with your enquiry."
Best
John
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Hello John,
Hmmnn .... that last is very interesting. Maybe when you go to LMA again, I'll ask for a look-up. I wasn't quite accurate last message. I*do* have a couple of pilot-mariners, but as they are from collateral lines, I haven't yet started digging for them (smile - so many people to research, so little free time- even having the WC doesn't get me out of household chores - like shovelling snow! - the last two days, we've had our first Major! storm of the winter - quite beautiful, but also quite hard work. I do all of ours plus the shovelling for a feisty 87-year old neighbour ((and I have to get out there PDQ to forestall her trying to do it for herself)) plus frequently I do two other frail elderly neighbours (if their children haven't got there yet). From care-giving my own parents, who both (luckily) got to die at home, in their own beds, I learned that having the freedom to go out for a walk every day ( even if it is just two-doors-down-and-back) is crucial to morale. Winter is a fact of life here ("Mon pays, c'est ne pas un pays, c'est l'hiver" - Gilles Vigneault), but it is not insurmountable. So, ... as long as i am able, I shovel, (and the Lab comes out with me and cheers me on - by diving into every thrown shovelful and throwing it up into the air again with her nose).
Erm .... apologies Rootschat - I have wandered on a bit - that's a problem with continued correspondence - one forgets that this is public email.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Since it concerns the Royal Arch (John Tillman's ship) I have copied an e mail received from yet another helpful Canadian Gentleman, who has an excellent site all about Sunderland & it's ships and Ship building - must to read, and add to if you can. :-
"Thanks for this.
Upon receipt of your message, I have added Royal Arch into my build list for 1868 - here http://www.searlecanada.org/sunderland/sunderland124.html#1868
The builder was apparently 'Sykes' a new builder name to me. Ex Lloyd's Register of 1869 /70. An image of a section of the applicable page is attached. There are lots of editions of Lloyd's Register available. I know I have a link to the site on site page 100. Still in the registers at 1880/81 then owned by T. H. Williams. Tillman til the 1876/77 register but do not have 1877/78. R. G. New in 1878/79
It is likely that Corder would have referred to Sykes but Corder is not available to me.
There were a great number of vessels named Lady of the Lake. One edition of the Mercantile Navy List lists 18 of them - none of them based at Sunderland. A handful of them are in the registers. There was one of 329 tons built in Chittagong, Bangladesh, in 1820. It was still around until 1862/63 per Lloyd's Registers. Stainbank said to be the owner no city referenced. but earlier of London. I cannot spot the vessel in the very early registers but there is a vessel that matches in many aspects listed in 1840/41 in the name of Garrett & C.
Also http://users.xplornet.com/~shipping/ShipsL.htm "
Me back again anyone know or have info on 'Corder' is it like 'Keys', which reminds me, if you could rest that busy shovel for a bit, without getting snowed under, could you please re-look on Keys for
2605 'Orient', I know you sent it on the bottom of a right hand page - but does it go over to the next page please, ( Ref Angas). Snow - what's snow - he says hopefully!! anyway not yet, bit of frost, enough thanks!
Still awaiting TNA would you believe.
Best
John
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... Me back again anyone know or have info on 'Corder' is it like 'Keys', which reminds me, if you could rest that busy shovel for a bit, without getting snowed under, could you please re-look on Keys for
2605 'Orient', I know you sent it on the bottom of a right hand page - but does it go over to the next page please, ( Ref Angas). Snow - what's snow - he says hopefully!! anyway not yet, bit of frost, enough thanks!
Erm, John, Keys doesn't have anything on an ORIENT with ON 2605 and none of the ORIENTs he has are at the bottom of a RH page.
Are you querying the definition of snow?
Here's a short explanation:
http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/brig.html (http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/brig.html)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Good Morning Westoe
Bright sun and no snow, only place I ever went in Canada, was St Johns, New Brunswick and yes that had a lot of snow.
Yes but ! Snow I referred to was the white stuff you have been throwing about (smile).
Have had info on the 'Seaflower' that Henry George Ellington was on as mate, built and registered at Sunderland 212 Ton Brig but confusing info as to whether built in 1817/18 or 1820 ( There is a note of 'irp' so whether the 'large repairs' might have been a near rebuild - don't know, in both cases owned by Robinson's of Sunderland.
Have you come across 'Corder' by chance ?
Best
John
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Have you come across 'Corder' by chance ?
No, the name is not known to me. I took a swoop through worldcat.org using Corder as an author name thinking that might pick up the name of a reference book, but no joy. Why not ask your contact on that Sunderland site to enlighten us?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Thanks to Wiki, here he is - but, but but, thinks must visit Sunderland to see !!
"James Corder started his research at the end of the 19th century, by copying the registers of three ancient churches, including St Peter's, which was founded by Benedict Biscop. He also used information held by Presbyterian chapels in the town, as well as trade directories and marriage license bonds.
Corder documented his research in 25 volumes of manuscript books, taking 40 years to compile lists of the births, deaths and marriages of Sunderland families. His knowledge of intermarriage was immense, as documented in his volume on local Quaker families. He also interviewed people to help with the construction of the pedigrees of local families. He made notes of their origins in his manuscripts and traced their first entry into the town, the trades they were in and where they lived.
But he was also controversial. His books often contained potentially libelous comments on the people he met. One man was called a ‘worthless nonentity,’ by Corder, another ‘a habitual drunkard.’ It is said that his books were kept hidden at Sunderland library for some years, for fear of possible court action by those mentioned.
As well as his family records, Corder also chronicled Sunderland's streets, buildings, churches and industries in a further 36 volumes. Many of the streets, and most of the firms he listed, have now disappeared – hence his work is of great value."
Looks very interesting.
Thank the Hush puppy again, hope it could be cheap journalism, or a crew man trying to get money (as in the case I showed earlier, with the carpenter) - can not see that ship of that size, would have more than 10 crew anyway. Re checking what the father and son had written, each time they have included the 'R' in ARCADIA.
Best
John
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... hope it could be cheap journalism, or a crew man trying to get money (as in the case I showed earlier, with the carpenter) - can not see that ship of that size, would have more than 10 crew anyway. Re checking what the father and son had written, each time they have included the 'R' in ARCADIA.
Heello John,
Very interesting about Corder; I have learned something today.
Re crew size of ACADIA, ON 32849:
Newfoundland has crew list for 1873 if you want to check.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes!! my mistake yet again - she was 754 Tons - so yes on the scale I have ( Foreign 3.6 per 100T) for 1850 - 1913 they should have 27 - O.No falls correct each time but the two Goodsirs have always written Arcadia - no disagree they were sober gentlemen - maybe they wrote it as they pronounced it.
Best
John
p.s. Can't afford another crew list, and haven't received the first yet.
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Have you seen the latest three images by email? You'll maybe get the answers to these questions next trip to NMM.
Cheers,
Westoe
-
Uhm
Maybe but too hard to read - O.N. not the same - my print out unclear - or new glasses for Christmas !!!
Best
John
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Yes, the ON is 32849. Be clearer to you maybe if you look it up yourself in Google Books. I used as search term "ACADIA 32849" without the quotes.
The bad news is that I now believe the truncated page 251 is not the fault of the person scanning the pages, but a fault in the original printed edition.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Just a big Thank you, to the patience & help from the Administrators and Rootschatters that has made a very interesting year.
A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS
AND IF YOU CAN FIND THE COAL AN ENJOYABLE ' First Footing'
Everthing in moderation please !!
John
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Well got thru festivities in one piece, Happy New Year to all.
Still awaiting with baited breath to info from TNA but for the moment, this is what I have on Peter Tillman Ellington, thanks to Janey.
Peter we find on the 1861 census, he is married to Mary. E. Age 27 ,both born in Sunderland, with a son ? 9yr old John.G. Liddle (Leddle) - maybe Mary’s child from previous marriage. Civil Parish Chatham, Church Parish St John, Reg. district Medway, Sub district Rochester. Coleman Street (Nr Dock road ).
Peter had married Mary. E. Buskenn ( Bushence) on the 29th Oct 1860 at Minster (Sheppey) , Bachelor & Spinster, he being a Shipwright and she a Servant, both gave address as Sheerness, his father a Master Mariner, and hers John a Mariner. – A very short married life if the ‘Invicta ‘ situation is true.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Hope all was very good - time on Monday to reclaim the table - rest the snow shovel - warm up your fingers on little green beastie.
Thought I would look to see what happened to 'Lavinia Thomasin Tillman Ellington Wilson's' children, but not wishing to do my usual and confuse everybody, I thought that since it concerned the name 'Wilson' ( and there are a lot of them) also that they were North of the Tyne I had better start a new post on Northumberland Forum - which I did " (www) or Where Went the Wilsons (of Chirton)" and very interesting and helpful it is.
Though some went to live in WESTOE - so I might yet be your long lost cousin ( big, big smile)
Best
John
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Happy New Year, John,
Yes, I've been following your www/Wilson thread.
Rest the snow shovel? Hah! I just finally got the car out today from Thursday night's blizzard and we have another one coming Monday night. Plus too cold to be standing outside with the beastie trying to pick up a signal (today I am at public library.) And anyway, the dining room table has been taken over by jigsaw puzzles. But ... I've had some soggy bread come in today which opens up some new lines for me, and as always, I follow your research with keen interest. (Smile) If you do turn out to actually be my long-lost cousin umpteen times removed, my tipple is Lamb's Navy.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Saw state of weather in US and hoped it wasn't coming your way - don't know what has happened with TNA, unless they have left sending till after Xmas Post.
Silence on other posting, so maybe I have ( or rather they have gone as far as is possible ) so maybe I will just get the jigsaws out !! (this searching business is a bit like that anyway).
Keep warm, keep safe, and ease up on the shovel.
Best
John
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Uhm - received the 'Invicta' crew list at last - Hats off to backroom staff of TNA, who stated - usual time to do that work -14 days, but did it in 12. Posted on trhe 18th Dec 2013, it arrived today, 7th Jan 2014 - oh! for the days of the 'Penny Black Stamp' Another thing to be put down to progress in this fast moving world !
Well worth waiting for (in a way), except that due to three different official rubber stamps ( one each for Sept, Oct and december 1867, it would appear to confirm that all were lost.
However, what it does tell me, is that Peter's previous ship was the ' Pride of the Wear' ( His eldest brother Henry George Ellington was master on her at the time), she was on the Med run, the two of them left in August 1867. Henry George became master of the 'Golden Spring' O.No. 12771, again running Med & F.P.S. , while on the 21st Sept ( according to the crew list, and not 24th as later stated) Peter signed on the 'Invicta', as Carpenter/AB.
Now - your view please Westoe - 'Carpenter/AB' seems strange, could he be a supernumery, like our David was?
Off the subject - I am starting to think that all 'Penny dreadfuls' were written by ' Ancestor hunters' who couldn't find answers !
Best
John
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Hello John,
How many crew on INVICTA and how are they ranked? For Peter, are the ranks 'Carpenter' and 'AB' obviously written by the same hand, at the same time? or did someone just not show up and he was asked to do double duty. What was his rate of pay compared to the other AB-s? Possibly INVICTA was such an old banger, she'd need two carpenters. Sorry I can't do better. It's hard to give a good answer without seeing the actual document.
Cheers,
Westoe
(3 degrees F at noon hour today and high winds)
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Hello Westoe
old banger!! OLD BANGER !!! Tut tut - she was brand new on maiden voyage !! crew shows as Master - Mate - Boatswain - Carpenter/AB - Cook - 5 ABs - 2 Apprentices.
Bosun wage £3.10 - Peter's wage £4.10
Problem is they sent the full size sheet, so can't reduce it, but will try to photo it, but first attempt unreadable print too small.
Deeper investigation today -as new to me - 1950/70 Eng 2 -OK.
Best
John
Hope weather clears for you, we are hoping it doesn't come this way !!!
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Knowing ( with experience of searching for names like Wood and Wilson) that this is not easy the name of Brown could be worse, so anybody searching for an Alexander Brown born 1835,at Sunderland, who was a Master Mariner cert No. 21262 - his address in 1867 was 15, Anderson Street Sunderland, He was master of the 'Invicta', which was lost with all hands on 24th Sept 1867,he had joined the ship on 19th Sept and previous to that was Master of the 'Morning Star' - which he left in Aug 1867 at Gloster.
On a previous post I had given a list of crew members of the 'Invicta', if anyone is searching a relative ( with any of those names) please contact me on PM and I can fill in a few details.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Can't get much more out of Crews list on Peter, except that he had made an allotment of £ 2.50
out of his monthly wage , but to who it doesn't say, just under is written what appears to be 2 masafter and under that - take, otherwise apart from the fact that his signature is a bit wobbly and he was two years volunteer with the Navy ( which fits in with what I had for him in 1860-62).
Best
John
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Hello John,
Sincere apologies for my "old banger" clanger. You now have so many people and ships on the go that I get confused. Well then, it's possible that there were still finishing touches to put on INVICTA, hence a need for a carpenter/AB.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Out on the 'Green beastie' are we, how is the weather now - easing for you I hope. One item I forgot to put down, was that both the 'Pride of the Wear' and 'Invicta' were under the same managing agents - George Foreman of sunderland. I think to follow Peter backwards, I will have to go to TNA, to see the crew list for Pride of the wear in 1866, which in principle they have. Can still not find who he made his wage allotment to, I suppose there is no register for that ??
Have until the two carpenters have always been searching Master Mariners, now when I come to search my pet names (LTTEW) husband Joseph Wilson, he, his brother and some of the Wilson grandchildren are mariners/Sailors/Seamen depending on the enumerator! What is the best method for finding these, or is the answer - don't bother ? since they started up in Spittal I wonder if they might have been fishermen - but have never seen that term used ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
Erm ... you'd use pretty much the same tactics as looking for a master mariner, just not so many of them - the merchant navy records from FindMyPast, the newspapers, the census-es (you might just get lucky and find them enumerated aboard ship), etc. I've been buried in old newspapers lately and having a field day.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes a case of ' slowly slowly catchie monkey' as the old saying goes.
No ! No! we can't have that - Westoe buried in old newspapers !! tut! tut! wouldn't be right,
(smile) better have a whip round.
Have actually been regarding the same myself, on the John Tillman (Architect) but apart from finding that he fell down the stairs and fractured his arm in three places, and that there is a good picture of him in a magazine called the 'Invention' 1883 edition (which so far I can't find anywhere),
am not progressing.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
LTTEW's daughter Thomasina married a certain John Miller (Mariner) and they lived at :
No. 71 Saville Street Westoe, question is - do you know where Saville street is or was please, and observation is that a Mr Bruce Lowe (Mariner), wife and three children lived next door - think I saw a Mr Lowe on one of your post somewhere, or have I been drinking too much Lamb's again?
Best
John
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LTTEW's daughter Thomasina married a certain John Miller (Mariner) and they lived at :
No. 71 Saville Street Westoe, question is - do you know where Saville street is or was please, and observation is that a Mr Bruce Lowe (Mariner), wife and three children lived next door - think I saw a Mr Lowe on one of your post somewhere,
Hello John,
If you ask Google Maps for "Saville Street, South Shields" and zoom in, it appears to be a dead-end street running westward off Anderson Street (the A183), just north of Winchester Street (where several of my lot lived) and south of Ocean Road.
Sorry, but the name "Lowe" doesn't ring any bells.
Cheers,
Westoe
(still in the deep freeze - car won't start again today)
-
Hello Westoe
Sorry to hear about nasty weather - is it normal for the time of year where you are ? But look at the petrol you are saving ( smile ). Thought - have an old wooden toboggan in the cellar - but no snow, would be perfect for what was the long hot hill of summer that you have, Oh! how do I stop it when I reach the library and how do I get back ! Problems over here in both North and South ( like UK) is heavy flooding - so far center is okay up to now.
Other people on Saville St are ; Barbara Horbot & family - James Phillips and wife -Robert Barnes wife & daughter -Margaret Boyce & son - Edward Rutherford ? & wife - Felix Skea & family. Seems a longer street at that time, as last is in 78. No telling my son lives in No.86 - in a four house street!!
Hope things improve quickly, Summer is on the way ( my resident blackbird informed me )
Best
John
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ried [/i]
Have actually been regarding the same myself, on the John Tillman (Architect) but apart from finding that he fell down the stairs and fractured his arm in three places, and that there is a good picture of him in a magazine called the 'Invention' 1883 edition (which so far I can't find anywhere),
am not progressing.
Hello John,
Can't help with "Invention", but I've had a look through a paperback book I have:
Sunderland in Old Photographs
159 pages, original price 8 pound
Collected by Stuart Miller & Billy Bell
Alan Sutton Publishing Limited, 1991
ISBN: 0-86299-898-0
p33, there's a photo of the museum and central library
That's the only mention of Tillman I see in it, but it is well worth buying just for background information and local colour. I got mine secondhand for a song.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Might just have found 'Invention', nice lady at British Library, is having a copy sent up to her so had she can check, and will know next Tuesday,so fingers crosssed - it is so nice when you manage to contact such a helpful person, and that happened twice last week, the other being at D
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Hello Westoe
Might just have found 'Invention', nice lady at British Library, is having a copy sent up to her so had she can check, and will know next Tuesday,so fingers crossed - it is so nice when you manage to contact such a helpful person, and that happened twice last week, the other being at Devon Family History Soc.
"Once you know a port a ship is Registered at you can look at Shipping Registers for that Port as these usually give the Masters name. On the research I have done so far on Shipping Registers I usually find that they are held by the Local Archives that cover the area the Port is in".
Ref: BT115/11 (Alphabetical Register for Captains, period 1845 - 1854) The above had just been quoted to me - have you been able to do this for South Shields ( Thinking that John Tillman would have been on the 'John & Eleanor' at that time) - if so who did you contact ? They seem to be implying that the top number ( which each year never changes, would be the Number given to the ship by it's Port of registry ?)
Best
John
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Hello John,
Good going with "Invention". I'll cross my fingers for you too.
Erm ... I'm not quite sure that I understand your question about BT 115/11. I didn't contact anybody - I've just had a few files that I have bought from TNA and the several which have been free downloads.
If you want to see what a page in BT 115/11 looks like, see the Merchant Seamen records at FindMyPast. There are two entries there for a John Tillman, born 1811, Exmouth. One of them is for BT 112 and the other is BT 115/11.
My problem is that I'm too far away to consult the Newcastle shipping registers and that TNA file where I found you Silas Angas on CHARLES RICHARD had data for London only until after Official Numbers were introduced, so wasn't much use for my early mariners.
Apologies if I am being obtuse on this one and Good Luck with your 'two chippies' 'Mabel and Mary' thread.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes I have the two files, but while 112 has name of ships 115 is all numbers, and what it now appears is needed, is to find out if the number ( 1544.752 ) is a number given by Port of registry, and if so, where to find out to which ship, but somehow feel, that since I had three different answers from TNA, that I am on a wild goose chase! So think I will drop that one now.
Best
John
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Hello All
Not been asleep, and not dead yet ! Have just come back from a digging trip in London.
So thought that I should relay any what might be useful info :
Well - first off ( see post 23) YES The British library is excellent, and staff very helpful, important point to mention is that before you go to get your library card - you can in fact register on line, which in turn means that you can use that reg No. to pre-order up what you wish to see.
My result thanks to very helpful Alice, and equally good staff in the digital imagery dept, I was able to get a good photo of 'John Tillman' taken from the Magazine ' Invention' ( however due to copyright I of course cannot show).
Moan coming up - Crews list - I now understand that in 1970 the vast collection of OUR heritage 'crews list' was split up, with about 10% to TNA, the same to National Maritime Museum, with remainder offered to their Ports of origin,, ( Not all port would accept them).
I understand that NMM have years 1861, 62, & 63 then years ending in 5 only. I happened to order up two of these list while at NMM and was pleased to see the care and attention that had been paid to their preservation, each one arrived in a separate folder, enveloped in a rigid plastic folder. Also found staff there extremely helpful.
Not so in TNA, where you had many stuffed in an old cardboard box!!! have just re read and NO I didn't mean that the Staff were in boxes - Sorry Another problem at TNA was my following experience, and a warning to others, to allow plenty of time - as they do not have the same system in place as British Library.
To Follow
Best
John
-
TNA Continued
Hour and a half to get there, another hour and a half to get card - then to start desk ?
Me: How do I order please .
Young lady : I will help you, on the computer we first go to - Oh ! Let us try this one instead. Ah good, now you swipe your card like this, Uhm, try again, we are having some problems !!!
(Another computer - bit like musical chairs - still smiling - just)
At last!
Me : so I enter the info here
Lady : yes and then you go to reading room over there.
Me : But it says it is not held here and will take three days to get!!! And I am not here in
three days - why could this have not been pointed out before.
Lady : We are thinking about changing the system, so that people can find out.
Me : like the efficient system that the British library use ?
Lady : Sorry, yes.
Well as they say you can't win them all!!
Oops forgot to mention LMA, mainly because I had in the past got so use to their good service, and I was not disappointed this time either
Best
John
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Afternoon All,
Follow up on Captain John Tillman's sea career :
Have found another of the ships that John Tillman was Master on, that appears to have been built at 'Shorts' of Sunderland in 1864
'Robert & Charlotte' a Barque of 349 T measurements 120.00 x 27.1 x 16.7. Built of Fir,
Yellow Metal Sheathed and fastened. O.N. 47499 ( ref Lloyd's 1866 )
His address at that time was : 8, Edgerton Street Bishopwearmouth Sunderland.
Notice also that John Tillman did maiden voyage to Med for three months, Captain Turnbull ( John's
sister married a Turnbull ) then took command . The Tullick family are also close ( that being maiden
name of John's wife ). Note that one of the Tullicks was the last to Captain “Royal Arch”, while still
owned by John Tillman’s Son in 1877, after his father had died in 1868.
‘Geraldine 361 T Barque o/n 51163 measurements 121.1 x 27.9 x 17.4 built & reg
S/land 1864 Owner R.Sheraton
John on Lloyd's reg as Master 1865 to mid 1866. Voyages that I found in Newspapers were :
Arr Shields 13th May 1865 from Alexandria.
At Constantinople from Ceres 30th May 1865 – 20th June Arr Shields from Ceres.
Arr Falmouth 18th July from Kustondje for Gloster left 24th July 1865
The Crews list, that I picked up in NMM this time gave Geraldine as having arrived in Sunderland
on the 23rd Jan 1865 from Taranrog ( Russia), so confirming the above, and giving me his
previous Ship. So far so good – but the next hit for John on the Newspapers, is :
All for today - garden calls !!
Best
John
-
Still on my London diggings -
Just no luck on my two Chippies ( Thomas and Peter Ellington ) or their families.
Must be another way 'to skin a rabbit', I am missing something, somewhere !
Ellingtons were a loss again, having bought the crew's list from 'Invicta', and finding that Peter's
previous ship was 'Pride of the Wear', had a hope of following him back from there, but no luck he
was not on the only list that I could find, which was in 1866 - so dead on that one. Now remember
what I forgot was to try 1865 Lists for the 'Pride' from NMM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Likewise with Thomas, no sign of list for the 'Tudor Prince' nor the 'Jason',
Only actual crews list, re Ellingtons concerned Older brother - Henry George, which confirms that he was master of the 'Dauson' in 1865, that the Ship was a coastal collier, and that he was up and down the N.E. coast like a yo-yo ! from Sunderland to London each time, know how he must have felt ! ( in my case was the 'Fireglow' and Seaham Harbour to Battersea Power station)
H.G. also of course appeared on crew list 1866 on the 'Pride of the Wear'.
Still Nothing on the death of their Father ( Thomasin's husband) !!!!
And afraid that is all for time being.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
First, the report on the Acadia ( David Goodsir's Ship ) was as follows :
"Acadia 32849 Barque, 37 years old, reg S.Shields - wood 733 tons, cargo Esparto Grass & Lead 740 Tons, voyage Newcastle from Malta. No. Crew 16. No. of lives lost - NIL. State of weather Lt westerly wind.
Cause of Casualty & Inquiry - burnt. Caused by cargo catching fire off coast of Spain."
Second is question - Have you any idea, when the 'North East Coast Collier Agreement ' first came into operation?
All I can remember is that the instant you tied up in your loading Port - Half the crew shot off home.
While the other half, loaded the ship and sent off telegrams when ship was ready for sea for the rest to rejoin. - This was reversed on the next run North - One big moan was when we were sent to Rotterdam. (Yes, Westoe we did find Rotterdam, just!! with the aid in Fog of Decca Navigator).
I being from the South, was popular with the Mate, ( as he was able to be off each time - and he looked after the discharging in London - so it was me who was away)
So I loaded each trip North and got amongst other things a real appreciation of the skill of the 'Trimmers' and the work they did to make sure very ship was safe for sea.
Best
John
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Second is question - Have you any idea, when the 'North East Coast Collier Agreement ' first came into operation?
All I can remember is that the instant you tied up in your loading Port - Half the crew shot off home.
Hello John,
Sorry, no, no idea.
Cheers,
Westoe
-
Thanks to Westoe
I now have further information on Thomasin's Stepbrother ( David Goodsir ), it now appears that after finishing his Apprenticeship, He then in May 1835 at the age of 19 years joined the Scarborough registered Brig of 148 tons called 'ALPHA' under the command of Captain R.W.Hill as Cook/Mariner. In July 1835 she is shown as ' Inward on a voyage from Santander'. She is also noted in Lloyd's as having been built in 1800 with ' Thorough Repairs' in 1834.
During 1835 & 1836, she appears to have made two voyages from Yarmouth to Memel (now in Lithuania). David will have left her in May 1836, when he joined the 'Lochiel' as a Seaman for voyages to the Americas.
Note. This seems to have been the only missing link on his sea career, as he had missed this off his application for 'Master's' cert - not enough space ? But dates fit.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Off subject, but while searching for John Tillman's grave in Sulina came across the following inscription : - Isabella Jane Robinson
Beloved daughter of
E.A. & E.D.S. Robinson
of South Shields
Age 23 yrs
could be what you might term 'Soggy bread' but though it should be entered as anyone up in the north searching - could have found this one hard to find, ( picked of a utube thingy !!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k872Dr4QZ38 an interesting site on Sulina.
Best
John
Oh yes and p.s. HAVE just found that Captain John was in fact Tammy & Peter's son, thanks to new info from Devon Heritage Services now on our old favourite FindMyPast.
More details later - am dragged screaming into the garden.
-
Here is a bit more
1811. Third son of Tammy and Peter TillmanJohn born on 6th Jan and baptised on the 30th Jan St Marys Lympstone.
This was only found out, after a very long search, as John Tillman on his application for Master's Certificate had Sunderland as his birth place ( though this had been entered by the Registrar in Dublin, John had himself entered the birth date but did not changed the place !) Surprise! What too much administration and a couple of glasses of the good stuff can do – Durham could find no register in Sunderland for his birth. It was not until Devon Heritage Service gave FindMyPast the relevant information – that was some two years after I first found and decided to follow up, that I was able to have the confirmation, to what I felt might be the case.
Help please, have mislaid details on the Death of Tammy Goodsir, in Feb 1834, buried in Holy Trinity Bishopwearmouth, and need the coding to get death cert from GRO. As the above Capt John's son John Tillman Jnr the Architect, did a lot of sanitary work in Sunderland, I wondered what had instigated this, I know his Aunt Thomasin had died of Typhus, and since Tammy his Gran had died
age only 52yrs old - how ? And was this his driving force ?
Best
John
-
Erm, John, ..... quick reply in haste as just passing through. Registrations of Deaths and Death Certificates didn't start until 1837, so no use for Tammy.
Cheers,
Westoe
-
Thanks Westoe
Forgot that, getting more senile by the day, or is it all this gardening, never mind will be eating own french beans this weekend.
Would nobody have recorded anything - ref Tammy ?
Best
John
-
Could anybody in Sunderland, tell me please, if either of these buildings still exist :
Royal Skating Rink, Egerton Road built in 1875 - might be telescoping but seem to remember falling over on there in the 1950's ?
New Covered Market Union Street built in 1880 .
Having found the certain connection with Tammy, (His Mother), am now looking with even more interest, to Captain John's sons - John Jnr and Thomas, who seem to have built a lot of Sunderland, including older part of your Museum, Grindon Hall, and a few others still standing,
and of course those mentioned above.
Best
John
-
So we eventually obtained the Log Book from ‘Royal Arch’, which explained some things, but still left the true cause of death unknown ( But at that epoch, how far had medicine managed to progress).
Among the interesting points, were :
John Tillman Jnr was written into the Logbook as Owner and Managing Agent of 5 Bridge Street Sunderland ( even before Capt John died ).
The Consul in Sulina, appointed the Mate Mr Walter Telford to take over command, until the ship reached Constantinopole, where a Captain James. B. Shield would take command for the ship’s voyage back to Ipswich in England.
From Consul entries the ship had arrives in Sulina on the 15th September, and sailed on the 16th October 1868
Thomas Sand, whose name appeared on a ‘Letter of recommendation’ give by John Jnr in 1876, was onboard ‘Royal Arch’ as one of the two Apprentices on this trip
-
Bit more on death of Capt. John
First entry in Logbook concerning Capt. John, was made by Walter Telford ( Mate) on the 2nd of Oct at 1.p.m and witnessed by the ship’s Boatswain H. S. Mordey
“Captain came onboard and complained of cold” –
A day by day account of the Captain’s condition was entered by Mr Telford over the following days until Capt. John died at 7.30 p.m; on Sunday the 11th October ( in the presence of several Captains, among which were Captain W. Bassett of the ‘Sea Foam’ of Sunderland & Captain John .A. Kerr of the ‘Ethel’).
It would appear that Capt John might have spent sometime between the 6th and 11th in the Sulina Hospital, due to a remark noted on the list of his belongings of certain clothing items “ returned from wards”.
The Funeral cortege ( with ship’s crew and many Captains) started from the ship at 11 a.m on Tuesday 13th, and John was interned at 12 o’clock.
Cause of death was given as “ Marasmus Senilis” by the Doctor – which apparently means old age or “sorry we don’t know” ( which would be quite acceptable at that epoch).
Best
John
-
Hello Westoe
Glad to hear thing are getting better - and no I didn't look at the photos, I'll take you word for it.
Since now know for sure that the family of Captain John Tillman, are ours, have spent time following his children through,and there is one you might be able to help with ?
Background : John ( The Architect ), had a sister, who married a Turnbull ( wouldn't you believe it!)
they had a daughter, who they named Dorothy, she married a Lewis John Jillings.
The help needed is to find any info on their son
On the 26th of November 1913 Ronald Jillings ( Bank Clerk age 16yrs) sailed from Liverpool on the S.S.Tunisian ( Capt G. Harrison ) of the ‘Allan Line’ destination St Johns New Brunswick Canada where they arrived on the 5th November 1913. He was picked up by his UNCLE ?
August 19th 1916 Ronald was killed in action he was 19 years old. Ronald reg No. 201828
Enlisted in the 52 Battalion of the Canadian Infantry on the 8th November 1815, his address at that time was 33 Gloucester Street Toronto Ontario.
Been very very hot last few days- excuse to use the computer!
Didn't I remember that amongst your names somewhere was a Richard Richardson, cause there was one on 'Royal Arch's maiden voyage - in 1868 he was 22years old and had signed on as Carpenter/AB, his previous ship was the J.B.ORDY, he had excellent handwriting.
Best
John
-
Oh! forgot this - but seems interesting as a time-line for shipping :
'Royal Arch' left Sunderland on the 22nd June 1868 Bound for Genoa and Sulina.
She arrived Genoa on the 27th July & left on the 11th Aug
Arrival Sulina was the 15th Sept and departure a month later on 16th Oct
Eventually arriving back in UK ( Ipswich ) on 8th Jan 1869
Best
John
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Hello John,
Yes, I am almost back to full functioning again. Delighted to see that you have found a Canadian connexion.
Is that Dorothy, born 1865 Sunderland, Durham, married 1891, and Lewis John born 1859 in Thetford, Norfolk? They are on 1911 Census in Halifax, West Riding of Yorkshire, but no sign of Ronald - at school abroad? Ronald, aged 4, is on the 1901 census in Guiltcross, Norfolk.
Have you any idea whether the "Uncle" who met Ronald's boat was paternal or maternal, blood uncle or uncle by marriage?
I think Lewis John Jillings had siblings:
- William Gayford Jillings, born 1853, Thetford
- Catherine A. or Catherine Ellen Jillings, born 1854, Thetford
- Ellinor M Jillings, born 1856, Thetford
- Lawrence H Jillings, born 1857, Thetford
- Charles Edward Jillings, born 1860 Thetford
Their baptisms are here:
http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/surnames.php?doc_type=150&surname=JILLINGS (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/surnames.php?doc_type=150&surname=JILLINGS)
Catherine Ellen Jillings married in Thetford Q3, 1874, to Kitton Gayford at Thetford St. Mary's.
http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/documents.php?document_id=9412 (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/documents.php?document_id=9412)
William Gayford Jillings married in Marylebone, Q4, 1875, to Amelia Blanche Pegg who was buried Thetford St. Mary's 1877
http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/surnames.php?doc_type=300&surname=JILLINGS (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/surnames.php?doc_type=300&surname=JILLINGS)
and again in Guiltcross, Q1, 1880, to Emily Constance Creasy.
http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/documents.php?document_id=18930 (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/documents.php?document_id=18930)
In 1883 Kelly's Directory, he appears as a farmer in Bridgham, Norfolk so .... unlikely I think to be the uncle.
Eleanor Mary Jillings married in Thetford St. Mary's , Q1, 1880, to Richard Charles Harvey.
http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/documents.php?document_id=9418 (http://www.doun.org/transcriptions/documents.php?document_id=9418)
[Aside: I got the full names of this pair from Free BMD.]
I'm sure that you already know that Lewis John Jillings married in Sunderland, Q2, 1890 to Dorothy Turnbull. (Reference Number - Sunderland, Volume 10a, Page 917)
I haven't found a marriage for Lawrence/Laurence, and neither for any Charles E Jillings. There are possible marriages for plain Charles Jillings Q2, 1872 in Norwich and Q1, 1890 in Plomesgate, but as he was buried 1900 Thetford St. Mary's, he can't have been the uncle who met Ronald's boat in 1913.
[It's on same link as I gave above for burial of Amelia Blanche.]
Haven't been all that helpful yet, have I? (Grin, grin).
Wait for it - the good part is coming.
On 27 November, 1914, that address of 33 Gloucester Street, Toronto was occupied by Mrs. Edith Gayford, next of kin to Lt. Gordon Thomas Gayford, born 11 November 1892 and a commercial traveller in civilian life. Only five years older than Ronald and more likely a cousin than an uncle, so the uncle must have been Lt. GTG's father.
http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?Id=140055 (http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?Id=140055)
Ronald had that same address when he enlisted and there is a page for him too.
http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?Id=30468 (http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?Id=30468)
I think Ancestry has images of Canadian Attestation Papers, but I don't have any subscriptions at the moment. If your Public Library hasn't got Ancestry, I'll try to get it for you from mine, but no promises 'when' (they're not open evenings and daylight hours are pretty full).
Yes!, they do.
http://www.ancestry.ca/genealogy/ww1-canadian-soldiers/ronald-jillings.html (http://www.ancestry.ca/genealogy/ww1-canadian-soldiers/ronald-jillings.html)
Here's a link to a photo of his name on the Loddon War Memorial and the text says that he is also named on the grave surround of his parents' grave outside of Chedgrave Church.
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Norfolk/Loddon.html (http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Norfolk/Loddon.html)
This page specifies the location of that grave.
http://www.loddonhistory.org.uk/chedgrave.php (http://www.loddonhistory.org.uk/chedgrave.php)
See a cigarette card showing uniform of the Governor-General's Body Guard here:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Governor-Generals-Body-Guards-Toronto-Vintage-Cigarette-Silk-Number-26/321472809541?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620075055%26meid%3D8601376625734495879%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D20140620075055%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D321438155773 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Governor-Generals-Body-Guards-Toronto-Vintage-Cigarette-Silk-Number-26/321472809541?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620075055%26meid%3D8601376625734495879%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D20140620075055%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D321438155773)
and a postcard on parade in Toronto c. 1912 here:
http://www.cardcow.com/161456/governor-generals-bodyguards-toronto-canada-ontario/ (http://www.cardcow.com/161456/governor-generals-bodyguards-toronto-canada-ontario/)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello John,
Two more bits.
Mrs. Edith Gayford had been Edith Geraldine Jillings. Both she and her husband, Arthur Thomas Gayford, have entries on Find-a-Grave.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=114836479 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=114836479)
So do Lt. GTG and his wife.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Gayford&GSiman=1&GScid=639401&GRid=115636298& (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Gayford&GSiman=1&GScid=639401&GRid=115636298&)
Cheers,
Westoe
-
Whoops
You are back on form, thanks a lot, a little I had, and have sent off to 'The Ladies of Loddon' a request for further info.
Gayford does answer a big troubling question - as on a Census when Mary Isabella and Brother Thomas were together in Clifton Villas Sunderland - Thomas was marked down as Married - but can find no trace of that at all - so maybe Newcastle Brown was at work !!!
Here on two lots ( so as not to put strain on Green beastie ) is what I have on that part of Family so far ( have also info on Louise, but not relevent to this).
Best
John
-
Me again !
Starting with Dorothy's wedding - and now noting that Arthur Gayford was best Man
Sunderland Echo 3rd June 1890 - Fashionable Weddings
“Marriage was between Mr Lewis John Jillings of Bridgham Norfolk and Miss Dorothy Turnbull, Niece of Mr John Tillman, Clifton Villas. The Bridesmaid was Miss Sibun, of Jesmond, and Arthur Gayford acted as best Man. The Bride was given away by her Uncle Mr John Tillman. The newly married couple will spend their honeymoon in the Lake district. In both cases the presents were very numerous and costly
From the ‘Sunderland Echo’ we know that after Thomas died on the 28th June 1892, and that On March 3rd 1894 John put No.1 Clifton Villas up for sale, still for sale in June.
, so when it was actually sold, or when Mary Isabella and John moved out is uncertain,. Only events for sure are that John died on 31st December 1899 from Broncho-Pneumonia at his new abode of 142 Valley drive Harrogate, and the lady from next door was present – showing that Mary Isabella was not there By the time the 1901 census had arrived Mary Isabella was living, in South View, The Street, Bridgham, Guiltcross, just down the road from her daughter Dorothy and the Jillings family, and entered as Mary.I.Fiskin Widow and Head of household, age 59yrs, living on her own means with one of the local girls Clara Cutler age 17 as servant. After living with Fiskin (the steam plough inventor), she maybe felt at ease with her neighbours in ‘The Street’ – William Smith a Thrashing machine driver – Charles Halls a steam ploughing operator – Robert Copman a Wheelwright, along with two Shepherds, two Thatchers, an agriculture engine driver and a general shop owner – a Street party would have been interesting !
Best
John
-
Next
Due to the fact that ‘Kensal Green Cemetery’ is inscribed on the ‘Family Tombstone as the place where Mary Isabella is interred, I think we can take the following probate as being hers :
Fisken Mary Isabella of 178 Forest Hill road Honor Park Kent, Widow died 27th April 1907 at the Cancer hospital Fulham Road Brompton Middlesex. Administration London 1”th May to Dorothy Jillings ( her daughter ) wife of Lewis Jillings Effects £368
Let us try and follow Dorothy and husband, just to their close family. On the census for 1891
They are shown as living in Grove farm Bridgham Guiltcross Norfolk, with one servant and no children yet, Lewis John is a farmer, then by
1901
We can see the family taking shape, still at Grove Farm The street in Bridgham :
Lewis John is 42 yrs born 1859 in Thetford, Dorothy wife 37yrs born 1864 in Sunderland, now with Three children, all born in Bridgham, the first being Doris May aged 7yrs b 1894, next born 26th Feb 1897 a son Ronald 4 yrs old and lastly Gwendoline born 13th Dec 1898 -2 yrs old, and to keep the whole thing running smoothly, you had A governess Jessie A Gosling, and two servants, Florence Misor and Bessie Root.
As mentioned Mother Mary Isabella died in 1907 leaving all to Dorothy, the next mention is on an Electoral roll for 1909 which shows Lewis John in residence at 178 Forest Hill road.
-
Bit more and out to the Garden!!
178 Forest Hill road( where Mary Isabella had lived) This also being the year that Gwendoline was entered into the Year Book at the Royal Asylum of St Anne Society, her brother Ronald having entered in 1906 from the address of grandmother Mary Isabella (In Honor Oak Park)
Things get more confusing, when we get to the 1911 census, and Dorothy and Lewis John were visitors at Harry and Harriete Louisa( born in Sunderland same age as Dorothy) Barraclough’s house Hazelwood Free school lane Halifax, found young Doris May was staying with a friend in Yarmouth, Gwendoline was by then with Ronald, at the age of 14 he was on the 1911 register of the “Royal Asylum of St Anne’s Society in Redhill, Reigate page 7 & 5th down (in red pen 170). He in fact left in Easter 1912 aged 15 yrs.
Harry was down as a Shipping Merchant and Lewis John as a Corn Merchant’s Agent..
On the 26th of November 1913 Ronald Jillings ( Bank Clerk age 16yrs) sailed from Liverpool on the S.S.Tunisian ( Capt G. Harrison ) of the ‘Allan Line’ destination St Johns New Brunswick Canada where they arrived on the 5th November 1913. He was picked up by his Uncle
August 19th 1916 Ronald was killed in action he was 19 years old. Ronald reg No. 201828
Enlisted in the 52 Battalion of the Canadian Infantry on the 8th November 1815, his address at that time was 33 Gloucester Street Toronto Ontario
Dorothy Jillings of Bungay road Loddon Norfolk ( wife of Lewis John Jillings Died 24th January 1920 aged only 57. Having seen her first daughter ( Doris May ) married to Charles .L. Beaulieu in the first quarter of that year at Wangford 4a 1945. Administration ( with will) London 28th April to Gwendoline Jillings spinster ( her second daughter ) Effects £ 570 15s 9d
Lewis John was to follow the following year from the same address and on the 13th Feb 1921 – Probate London 3rd March to William Reginald Wentworth Pitts ????– Bank manager effects £268.12s.5d.
Gwendoline went on to marry a Mr Henry. M Cornish at Hackney in the second quarter of that year 1b 944
That is about all, except that if Ronald joined the same regiment as Cousin ( 4th Rifles ) then the bit I read about them having lost four Killed and two injured, on the date that Ronald died, on 'The Bluff' ( part of the Ypres front line) due to heavy artillery fire maybe included him.
All for now
Best john
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Hello John,
I'm glad you are pleased. So ... "Aunt" and "Uncle" Gayford were actually distant cousins, no doubt given the courtesy titles because of the age/generation difference. I remember the same happening in my childhood - in those days, it just wasn't acceptable for children to address adults by their first names. The Jillings and Gayford families in Norfolk appear to have been very closely intertwined.
I didn't find Arthur and Edith in the 1901 Canadian census, so it would appear that they emigrated between 1901 and 1911. It also seems that they hadn't been in Toronto very long because in the 1911 Census they are in the north of Middlesex County, considerably to the west and north of Toronto. (If you are interested in checking the map, London, Ontario is the county seat for Middlesex and Goderich, Ontario is the county seat for Huron County which abuts M'sex to the north.)
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=98276&highlight=4&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Edith+Gayford (http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=98276&highlight=4&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Edith+Gayford)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Again Westoe
Yeah ! had all that 'little boys should be seen and not heard ' business years ago from prissy Aunt.
Well if nothing else, here is one who will remember Ronald Jennings on the 19th of August, so no they are NOT forgotten.
Have also another Canadian brave man, have had details from living family, so will fill you in on a pm
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Thanks again for all the info, my one problem on Ronald - is to know exactly where and how he died.
Do I try and look in British or Canadian Army Archives ? as trying to follow through, it appears he was in the 52 nd Batt and then the 95th and they say the 'Manitoba Regiment", but can't find anything on googling for that.
If you could check in Ancestors for his details, when you have the time - raining here so no gardening -shame!
Best
John
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...my one problem on Ronald - is to know exactly where and how he died.
Hello John,
Erm ... the only way you are ever going to know that now is if someone else in that unit has had memoirs published.
Here's the best that I can do.
The four pages of downloads here will give you info on Ronald plus the names of the other three from that unit who were killed that day:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/489961/JILLINGS,%20RONALD (http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/489961/JILLINGS,%20RONALD)
but I have looked at the official war diary and, of what I read, only officers are named. For Other Ranks (O.R.), only the numbers are given. I did copy all the month of August 1916, but not sure if there is any need to send them. Have you already seen the battalion war diary? Please advise.
Ooops!! , I've just looked at another page for April 1916 in Google Images for the 52nd and several privates are named then, so possibly worth your while to read it all for the duration of Ronald's service. This is the link to that page and the CEF Study Forum where it was displayed.
http://www.cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10352 (http://www.cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10352)
Here is the link to what is available at LAC (Library and Archives Canada).
http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=52nd+Battalion&s13=&s12=&l=20&s9=RG9&s7=9-52&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect4=AND&Sect5=WARDPEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=FIND&p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.collectionscanada.gc.ca%2Farchivianet%2F02015202_e.html&r=0&f=S (http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=52nd+Battalion&s13=&s12=&l=20&s9=RG9&s7=9-52&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect4=AND&Sect5=WARDPEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=FIND&p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.collectionscanada.gc.ca%2Farchivianet%2F02015202_e.html&r=0&f=S)
You will also get some idea of what Zillebeke trenches were like in 1916 from this online regimental history book:
Full text of "The 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles, 1914-1919"
https://archive.org/stream/.../mountedrifles00bennuoft.txt
Here the guides of the 52nd Battalion appeared and led each com- pany into ... in :1Iaple Copse and Railway Dug-Outs at Zillebeke-Bund and the 2nd C. 1\1.
and a bit of 52nd Battn history here:
http://52ndbattalion.com/52nd.php?pg=70 (http://52ndbattalion.com/52nd.php?pg=70)
Some mentions of 52nd Battalion in June 1916 here:
http://www.lermuseum.org/en/regimental-history/billys-own/23/a-battle-report-of-sanctuary-wood-june-1916/ (http://www.lermuseum.org/en/regimental-history/billys-own/23/a-battle-report-of-sanctuary-wood-june-1916/)
Ronald Jillings' service medal was auctioned as part of a group in July 2010.
http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/catalogue-archive/lot.php?auction_id=186&lot_id=72703 (http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/catalogue-archive/lot.php?auction_id=186&lot_id=72703)
The War Graves Commission of course couldn't start their job until some time after the cessation of hostilities. Ronald's listed next-of-kin, his mother Dorothy, was dead by then, so the correspondence was with his sister Doris and her then address in Ealing is given both in those four pages above and in the army casualty report. Do you already have the casualty report?
The Gayfords emigrated to Canada in 1910. I'm thinking that Ronald joined the Governor-General's Body Guards because his cousin Gordon Thomas Gayford was already a member (got that bit from GTG's attestation papers) so that makes the postcard picture c. 1912 even more relevant. Do you already have those attestation papers or shall I send them? I got them for all three of your Canadian soldiers.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes please would like attestation papers if poss, and thanks for all the other links, am sure I will get as near a result as possible, when I have read through that lot, and yes I came to the same conclusion as you with ref cousins influence, maybe also he was a lad who craved adventure, as he can only have been in Canada a few months before he joined the 'Governor General's Bodyguard'.
Gardening this morning, before it gets too hot,- raspberry patch after many years needs good clear out;
Back on this afternoon, ( if wife hasn't pinched computer first!!)- or maybe - should I buy her a 'little green beastie' ?????????
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Couldn't get this one to come through,kept throwing up error !
Full text of "The 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles, 1914-1919"
https://archive.org/stream/.../mountedrifles00bennuoft.txt
Here the guides of the 52nd Battalion appeared and led each com- pany into ... in :1Iaple Copse and Railway Dug-Outs at Zillebeke-Bund and the 2nd C. 1\1.
Another question - do I take it that before the war the 'Governor General's Bodyguard' were a reservist force, and therefore duties would be weekends and some weeks during holidays - or were they Full time paid soldiers ?
Don't quite understand why Ronald's Medal was auctioned off, or was it never actually sent to Doris, do you think.
Best
John
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Hello John,
Erm ... perhaps copyright problem? - OK for me here in Canada to read, but not you in France?
I got there by Googling this search term (minus the square brackets, but otherwise exactly as I type it here):
["52nd Battalion" "Railway Dug-Outs"]
Naturally Google asked if I didn't mean Dug-Outs without the hyphen, but no, I didn't, because there were hits with both spellings and I searched both.
re Ronald's medal - Yes, I expect it was originally sent to Doris, but this wouldn't necessarily been the first time it was up for sale. Perhaps it was initially sold after Doris' death and four years ago that collector was dead and his estate was being sold? But being as it was only 4 years ago, there may be possibility of contacting the most recent buyer through the auction house and buying that one back again.
re GGBG's - Yes, weekends and holidays reservist force/permanent militia. Remember that this was a time when the map of most of the world was coloured red, "the empire on which the sun never sets", and "The Army" was very much a fact of life and loomed very large in the culture of the day. You'll note that your third soldier had quite a lot of pre-war experience with a C.F.A. (Canadian Field Artillery) unit which may explain his higher wartime rank.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Tis me again, and yes followed, and success - interesting reading ! Think have all I can reasonably get on Ronald Jillings, but Ronald, you are not forgotten and if I have a chance to get up to Railway Dug-outs I will.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Just before you go for a 'John' free weekend, do you think there might be any ( or thousands ) of the GAYFORD Clan still about in Toronto cause looking G.T.G didn't die until 1989 ( which to me is yesterday ) and if there are, just maybe, could get copies of photos ?
Have a nice Weekend
Best
John
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Hello John,
At some point GTG transferred to the British Army. He has a medal card at Kew, which you can download for GBP 3.30 by credit card. That has him up to officer status (2nd Loouie) so he may possibly have become the "Major Gordon Gayford" that turns up in Google making the horsey types in Stouffville distinct possibles.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Yes, confirmed. Here's link to newspaper photo of Major Gordon Gayford and his horse Gamin taking a jump 1949. GTG is named a member of Governor-General's Body Guards.
Over The Top At Pennsylvania National Horse Show .
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19491020&id...
Major Gordon Gayford, cf Toronto, a memb T of the Governor General's Horse Guards, and a of the Canadian Army jumping team takes his mount, Gamin, over ...
Cheers,
Westoe
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A very good one
Now I know why my Eldest is mad on Horses - Uhm that's a bit of a long shot!
Best
John
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Morning
A bit more , and corrections on Ronald Jillings :
He was picked up by his Cousin Gordon Thomas Gayford, ( who was a Commercial Traveller, - that enlisted on 27th Nov 1914 from the Governor General’s Bodyguard, survived the war , having been promoted Lieutenant on Oct 23 1915 and was the son of Arthur Gayford ( who had been Lewis John’s Best man ) and his wife ( Mrs. Edith Gayford , who was down as head of household, had been Edith Geraldine Jillings ). Gordon survived the two world wars, married Hazel Arnold on the 27th Oct 1923 and eventually died in 1989 age 95 yrs in Toronto Canada. Ronald sadly did not.
Ronald after six months in Canada, decided to follow his cousin and join the Governor General’s Bodyguard, then when he was old enough he enlisted with the 52nd Battalion
Canadian Infantry ( Manitoba Reg.), that was on the 8th November 1915, after this is somewhat surmise as no actual records seem to exist though dates seem to tally,
It is possible that he might have been with the first group, who left St John for Plymouth on the 22nd Nov 1915 aboard the S.S.California ( meaning that he would have missed basic training), however this might have been waivered due to his service with the G.G.B .
More to follow
Best
John
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A bit more
If this was so, then the Battalion arrived in Plymouth on the 3rd Dec and went straight to Witley camp, for six weeks training under British Instructors. (As to whether Ronald had Christmas leave and was able to get home to Lodden, I suppose we will never know, but only hope it was the case).
In January Battalion moves to Bramshott for two more weeks training, and then on the 20th February 1916, sails from Southampton to Le Havre, and spends the night at No.1 Rest camp during a snow storm, following day Battalion. takes train to Belgium.
On the 23rd Feb the 52nd joins the 9th Brigade, other Battalions are the 43rd, 58th, and 60th.;
In the beginning of March, they are in billets at Locre, having been attached to the 7th Brigade in the Ypres sector, in that first week all the Battalion members took turns in the trenches, for trench warfare instruction, experiencing light rifle and machine gun fire.
The first rotation at the front (as a unit) was on the 10th of March when they relieved 24th Batt. at M and N trenches in the Kemmal area.
Battalion completes it’s first rotation on the 16th March, having had their first combat fatality, on the 11th, when Pte Joe Sebastin, was killed while on patrol.
After a short break, when many were sent on further training courses, on the 1st April, they moved back to the front to relieve 60 Batt at ‘Shrapnal Corner’.
On the 5th April, in turn relieved by 60 Batt and returns to billets at Railway Dugouts and Maple Copse. With thanks to T. Fisher & D. Ratz, for this information on the 52nd Battalion.
And orf to the garden
Best
John
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The final information that I have on Ronald Jillings is :
Between the 15th & 16th August 52 Battalion moved once again up to the Front Line to relieve 60 Battalion, in position trench 38 centre to 44, to and inclusive Fosseway, 8 Officers and 450 men – ‘D’ Company, right front line trench 38 – 41, most men in support and deep living trench. ‘B’ Coy Left of front line and supports. ‘C’ Coy Metropolitan, right & left Support. ‘A’ Coy Reserve – 2 Platoons – Larch Wood – 2 Platoons Fosseway.
Battalion was holding 600yds N.E. from Ypres – Comines Canal ( a part known as the ‘Bluff’) on the 19 th of Aug Battalion suffered heavy Artillery and sniper fire, killing 4 and injuring 10 – though the Men are not named, we believe that Ronald was one of them.
August 19th 1916 Ronald was killed in action he was 19 years old. Ronald reg No. 201828
52 Battalion of the Canadian Infantry, buried Railway Dugouts Burial Ground Zilebeke.
Plot VI..J.5 From records we know that he was 5 ft 8ins tall, Hazel eyes and Fair hair.
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Am back to digging for more info on John.T the Architect and came across this in the Newcastle Courant, for Friday 12 Sept 1862, and wondered if any of yours used that chapel
" The Committee for building the New Wesleyan Association in Westoe Lane, South Shields, have selected the design by Mr John Tillman, architect, Sunderland. The estimated cost of the building is £3,000."
Wonder if it and Westoe Lane still exist ?
Best
John
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For anyone searching for Mariners circa 1868
Following were on the 'Royal Ark's' maiden voyage in 1868 - UK to Sulina and back :
George Dale Brown Apprentice ( no previous ship noted )
George Buchanan 43yrs- Cook/AB (ex 'Mazeppay')
George Sparks 29yrs - AB (ex 'Lynda Florida')
William Conley 22yrs - AB ( ex " " )
Henry Harrison 23yrs -AB (ex "John Hy Yates" of seaham )
John Phas Saivessce 22yrs- AB ( ex ' Jealousy' )
John Rodgers 26 yrs - AB ( ex 'Dinor' )
Hope this may be of help, think they were all North East coast Gents;
Best
John
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...Am back to digging for more info on John.T the Architect and came across this in the Newcastle Courant, for Friday 12 Sept 1862, and wondered if any of yours used that chapel
" The Committee for building the New Wesleyan Association in Westoe Lane, South Shields, have selected the design by Mr John Tillman, architect, Sunderland. The estimated cost of the building is £3,000."....
Hello John,
No, not so's I know of - St. Hilda's (CoE), Heugh Street Presbyterian and Mile End Road Presbyterian are the ones I know for certain.
Got another snippett on Gordon Thomas Gayford. Page 225 of this pdf tells you that he got his commission in the British Army 23 October 1915. (That's p225 of the actual book, not Google's pagination.)
[PDF]
The 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles - ElectricCanadian.com
www.electriccanadian.com/forces/mountedrifles00bennuoft.pdf
a unit of the Canadian Expeditionary Force on. November ...... Canadian Expeditionary Force was entitled to vote on the issue of ...... GAYFORD, G.T.. 4th C.M.R..
Are you sure you haven't got any more mariners to research (wistfull sigh)? I rather miss our frequent chattings. I've done little research this summer - too much gardening. (rueful smile) I must be getting old - I don't seem to get as much done as I used to.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Sorry for delay, but have been away with the camper for a couple of weeks, thru Belgium, Holland and into Germany to see Kleve ( where Henry VIII's wife came from), taking in Aachen ( Of Charlemagne fame ) on the way. Note - They do have rather a lot of RAIN up there !!!!
Now trying to fill in more info on Thomasin's sons Peter and Thomas ( the ship's Chippies ) and their Father's death ? ( Henry Ellington, ex mate of the Seaflower, born 17th April 1791 - then nothing after son Peter was born in 1833).
Thanks again for info, now you know my age, so if you are younger, I can let you know it gets even worse, but if you are older, I now know what to look forward to !!!!!
Sure there are many more mariners, that I need to know about, with your help, and in fact have just found that wife's family also have one to be discovered - more Later.
Best
John
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Further on Peter (Tillman) Ellington
After a re read of the crew list of the 'Invicta' (assumed lost with all hands, on Haisborough Sands in Sept 1867)
I note that Peter had taken a sub of £2 5s and also made an allotment of £2 5s to commence in 2 months time - which leads me to believe that his wife and family were still around ( Peter had married Mary. E on the 29th Oct 1860, and I had picked them up again working for the Navy in Chatham on the 1861 CENSUS - after this on the Invicta Crew's List he gave his previous ship as
' Pride of the Wear ' ( on which his elder Brother was Captain).
His address given on a newspaper report of the disappearance of the ship was
21 South Johnson Street Sunderland
Am in contact with Happisboro and other town in the region of Haisborough sands, to see if there is any ref of the ship or crew.
Any ideas please on how to find Peter's wife and family Mary was born in Sunderland in 1833
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Me thinks is time to give up on this -
1. Crew list shows all crew lost with the ship, and that was stamped three times, first in September, then the following two Months.
2. Lloyd's continue to enter the ship on the register, right thru to 1873 !!!! ( though note that the entry is exactly the same each time )- it is meant to have sunk in Sept 1867.
3. Shipwreck Mariners society paid out in that year £ 24 to members of the crew of the Invicta of Sunderland. have re written to them giving the names of all the crew - so far No reply.
Best
John
p.s. To make things worse - wife does 'Day Lilyes' so should you want some !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hello John,
Apologies. I'm sort of out-of-the-loop because of the long struggle with this new computer, so I have to ask a couple of perhaps-dumb questions, because I have forgotten so much stuff.
Q1. Do you know the maiden surname of Peter Ellington's wife Mary?
Q2. Do you know when and where Peter and Mary were married?
If so, I'll have a noodle around for you.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Hope all is going in the right direction,with your new apparatus, Here is what I had on Peter's wife:
In 1860 He married Mary.E. Buskenn OR Bushence (depending on which site you use!) she was born in 1833 in Sunderland - they married at Minster(Sheppey), her father's name was John - at the time Peter was working also for the Navy, but at Chatham dockyard, and in 1861 they lived in Coleman Street Chatham.
They also had a nine year old boy with them, but whose?
Note that' AVM' had suggested that I also tried different spellings, but I still have not 'Ancestors' site but will try now with ELLERINGTON OR ELRINGTON as suggested.
Only just back from Rochefort and the Charente and will put that on my next post, but for moment am suffering from attack of Bronchitis, back in a bit.
Best
John
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So with a lot of coughing I have come up with this :-
The future Capt. John Tillman's First Sea Voyage – age 13years ?
Genuine Old Brandy
A Cargo of the above, of the Choicest Quality, is just landed at this Port, direct from one of the first Houses at Cognac, ex ‘Transfer’, Captain Thomas Goodsir.
An eligible opportunity is now offered to Purchasers of one or more Puncheons, of furnishing themselves with a superior article, on moderate terms, either for present clearance, or to remain in bond. – Apply to Importers, NICOLLE and CHIDELL.
Nos. 24 and 25, French- Street, Southampton
March 26th 1824
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
The Voyage
2nd April 1824 (Ship’s news) – Dover 31st March - Off port ‘Transfer’ Goodsir, from Charente to London
3rd April 1824 (Ship’s news) – Deal. 1st April – three ships lost Anchor and cable off North Foreland yesterday, have put back and remain in the Downs due to rough weather. The ‘Transfer’ Goodsir has also been supplied with anchor and cable for the same reason.
Note. Well at least the Brandy was ashore in Southampton.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Before joining The ‘Fenwick’ ( Snow rigged - 195 T - reg. Sunderland ) as an apprentice in 1825, at the age of 14years. Did he by chance go on the ‘Transfer’ with his Step father in March 1824 on the above voyage, so giving him his first taste of sea life (and possibly Cognac), before starting on his chosen ? sea career.
Of course, I can find no crews list at this date, so it must remain as ‘surmise’. However one can think that for the sake of his wife Tammy ( John’s mother ), it might have been the case, and Tammy ( my direct 3x Great Grandmother, who’s husband was Peter Tillman from Lympstone Devon) could even have herself been aboard – it was not unknown to take your wife from time to time on a voyage.
Proof of the last fact being that Thomas Goodsir’s son David from his first wife, was born onboard the ‘Malvina’ ‘ At sea in the North Atlantic’ May 8th 1816’ !!!
If my surmise is correct, then on our pleasant and interesting visit this late September 2014 to Tonnay –Charente, we will have, 190 years later, walked the same Quays, seen the same Grand Cognac Négociant’s establishments, listened to the same river Charente, as they did – a nice thought anyway.
Notes : Having spoken to the nice lady who runs the ‘Ancien livre’ bookshop, we were able to learn quite a lot of interesting facts about the history of the town.
For example, at the time when ‘Transfer’ was there, the suspension bridge ( still standing) had not been build, so making it impossible for larger sea going sailing vessels to proceed any further up stream, and the smaller ‘Gabarres’ had to bring the cargo and load and discharge incoming cargo ( doing in fact the same job as the wherry/keel boats of the Tyne and Wear
Rivers in the north of England). At that time also The Town was known as Charente.
A lot of trade has been made with that town in France and our Mariners from the North East Coast,
so if I can get more info, it might be of interest for those of us searching in the 1800's
Best
John
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Hello John,
Wow! What great local colour. Where did you find the advert? I'm a little envious - walking the same streets as my mariner ancestors looks like a forever impossibilty for me now - but pleased as punch for you. (Smile) When you look back at what you had on these people when you started, aren't you proud of how much more you have found? You should be. Hope that the bronchitis eases soon and I haven't forgotten that I'm going to go to the library to try Ancestry for Mrs. Peter Ellington.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Help please
If anyone has the chance to look into 'Sunderland Echo' archives, could they please include a peep for any Obituary for the Architect John Tillman, who died on the 31st Dec 1899. He was buried on the 4th Jan in Sunderland.
On the British Newspaper Site I can find nothing, but me thinks it very strange that such a well known personage,who had always been heavily reported in the 'Echo' ( even to when he fell down the cellar steps!) would not have had an obituary at that epoch ?
Best
John
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Problem !!!
On family search, if for the 1891 Census you put in 'John Tillman' born Sunderland 1836 - as good as gold up comes the gentleman as a 'Visitor' St George Hanover Square - age & birthdate correct - then, say family search - go to our partner FindMyPast to get details - which one does try - up come from FindMyPast - come back in 30 mins. Nothing in 30 mins - try FindMyPast direct 1891 Census - no he doesn't show up at all.
Has anybody else had this stupid situation recently, if so how can one get round it please ?
Best
John
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He does show up on FindMyPast
You have misread the name on familysearch -it is John Tilliman -and that is what he is transcribed as on FindMyPast
Suz
-
He is also John Tilliman on A******y
Image shows clearly he is entered as John Tilliman visitor age 35 Architect F.R.I (orJ?) B.A born Sunderland
address 16&15 New Bond St
Suz
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Thanks Suz
When I entered Tillman, I did tick the 'var' box, but it did not show, regarding the first part FindMyPast state that it is a problem on the side of family search transfer.
Unfortunatly on the page shown there is no address, but assume it is a Hotel ?
Thanks again - we progress
Best
John
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Hello John,
Baedeker's 1881 Guide to London shows 16 New Bond Street as Long's Hotel.
Quote:
"At 16 New Bond Street is Long's Hotel, chiefly frequented by sporting gentlemen."
Unquote.
Drawing c. 1878 online here:
http://www.ashrare.com/bond_street_prints.html (http://www.ashrare.com/bond_street_prints.html)
and also here:
http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XJ101235/Longs-Hotel-Bond-Street-London?img=1&search=long's&bool=phrase (http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XJ101235/Longs-Hotel-Bond-Street-London?img=1&search=long's&bool=phrase)
Long's was still listed at that address in a 6 June 1891 newspaper.
Don't know much about Harrogate as a spa. Did people walk to The Pump Room to sip the waters from a glass several times a day, or was it like the hot springs at Banff, Canada where one immersed oneself in the waters? If so, and it was December, no wonder he caught pneumonia. Goughy's "ambling thought" on your other thread may be on the mark there.
Or, my earlier remark may be spot on too - pneumonia is very often a subsidiary effect of heart attack, stroke, cancer etc.
From a medical website:
Pneumonia is called the old man's friend because, left untreated, the sufferer often lapses into a state of reduced consciousness, slipping peacefully away in their sleep, giving a dignified end to a period of often considerable suffering.
Read more: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/ate/cancer/202478.html#ixzz3GRPfBg4d
Follow us: @NetDoctor on Twitter | NetDoctorUK on Facebook
I got your direct email; nothing useful comes to mind to say.
But ... erm ... can't resist asking. Was the monument in Grangetown Cemetery "architect-designed"?
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Uhm - your last remark made me chuckle - yes he did rather have a 'thing' about Corinthian columns - so, no thinks he didn't fancy being under one.
Thanks for info on Long's Hotel, - so we know at least where he was on Sunday night the 5th April in 1891( being the weekend after Easter) , but as to why he was there - no idea - maybe to buy another picture - Sotherbys were not far away - or visit to R.I.B.A. - or just to get away from nosey Ancestor hunters!!
Another bit I picked up is below, so I think proving that Granny Tullick had picked up the money that you mentioned sometime ago.
1851: 29 Union Street, Bishopwearmouth John, grandson aged 15, joiner's apprentice, born Sunderland, living with his grandmother Mary Tullick, a proprietor of houses. Maybe some influence of Aunty Thomasin and husband ( a Shipwright ) and the fact that their two sons ( being close to John’s age) were both apprentice joiners, however at the age of 18yrs, John became articled to the Architect Mr Martin Greenway, whereas Thomasin’s two sons went off to sea.
Best
John
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DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY
Please where can I find out more ? Suz kindly found this for me and it appears to fit with Duncan Wilson who would have been ( as far as I can see) the only nephew of John Tillman ( the Architect)
Duncan being the only son of Louisa( John's baby sister) and the Rev Wilson.
There is a medal card on A******y for him
Harold Gillies Plastic Surgery Archives from WW1 transcripts
Duncan Wilson
age 32
Private
no 12410
Durham Light Infantry11 th Bat
Wounded 22/08/1917
British
Gun shot wound face left chin & neck, fractured mandible
Military Armed Forces & Conflict WW1
Did he in fact survive this, there is one death entry which would make him 93, but am not sure as a Duncan Wilson also died in 1917.
Best
John
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Hello John,
You could try asking here:
http://www.dlidurham.org.uk/Pages/MuseumHomepage.aspx (http://www.dlidurham.org.uk/Pages/MuseumHomepage.aspx)
or save it for a visit to Durham records Office:
http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pages/DurhamLightInfantry.aspx (http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pages/DurhamLightInfantry.aspx)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Their Great War Roll of Honour is here:
http://www.ww1photos.com/DLI.html (http://www.ww1photos.com/DLI.html)
-
A snippet relating to DW and his father on page 180 of this pdf.
[PDF]Created using PDFonline.com , a Free PDF Creation service
www.jwillans.freeserve.co.uk/st_andrews_cemetery_inscriptions.pdf
17 Sep 1970 - 325019 Lance Cpl W E Carver Durham Light Infantry 14th August ...... Erected by Duncan Wilson in loving memory of my dear father Revd.
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Hello Westoe
Sorry for late reply to your PM,but didn't rec usual mail from Roots to say that it was there - think A.O.L is playing up again. Having got, decided to try the Pay & Go ( pay as you go system that gives you 12 hits in 14 days on Ancestry, So first two -OK found one of wife's Huguenots and Thomas's Probate- for what it is worth 6 only £82 and he left that to John ( reckon rest was tied up in the business) - 3rd hit - not enough pre info for a 'Wilson' and no go Last hit of 4 was for Duncan Wilson's war record - another credit gone and all I got was a blank, black screen - they haven't changed !!
Thank goodness for Rootschat, think I would have given up long ago with out their help.
Have however had a good one back from our Friends in Local Studies Sunderland, giving photos, one of his offices and other of one of his edifices, also fact that business was closed 1894/5 when J.T. took his retirement.
Best
John
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also fact that business was closed 1894/5 when J.T. took his retirement.
Hello John,
Aaah. So that straightens out the Harrogate mystery. Goughy was right. John did go there to take the waters for his health and that is why he was staying "in lodgings". Good going.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again
Again picked this up by chance ?? have roots stopped sending notifications now ?
Best
John
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Hi John,
I can see that you have had some notifications but not all. I will send you a pm to discuss in more detail.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hello John,
Do you have this book "Sunderland in Old Photographs" by Stuart Miller & Billy Bell?
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Sunderland-Old-Photographs-S-T-Miller/dp/0862998980 (http://www.amazon.co.jp/Sunderland-Old-Photographs-S-T-Miller/dp/0862998980)
softcover, 159 pages, original price seven pound, ninety-five pence, Alan Sutton Publishing, 1991
On page 33 is an image of "The Museum and Central Library in around 1910" (designed of course by JT and his brother) from the Auty-Hastings collection which appears to be held by Newcastle Library.
Apologies; I don't have a scanner, so cannot send you the photo. But this book would be something to look for if you make it up to the NE next year. That image is the only reference to Tillman in the book.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Not into much research at the moment, due to family duties I am told.
Still have found a bit more on the 'Two brother Architect's work' - like everything they built - Hitler's demolishion mob flatterned, Shops and offices in Fawcet Street, the Baltic Chambers on the corner of St Thomas Street and John Street, Tatham street Methodist Chapel and the Winter Gardens, just to name a few. However it appears that certain pubs he did survived. Will continue on these two Gents, when I have the time, as the rest i.e. The Ellingtons etc seem a dead end ?
Best
John
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There is quite a lot about the Tillmans in "The Architechture of Sunderland 1700-1914" by Michael Johnson and Graham Potts. You can get it as an eBook, http://www.rootschat.com/links/01elh/
Stan
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Thanks Stan
Yes, have got the book, and also contact with Michael, without that book, could have been stumbling in the Dark for a long time.
Best
John
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Extracted from ‘Peter’s People in the 19th Century’ By John Tillman
How did the Tillmans arrive in Sunderland ? - Well for me it was somewhat easier –
As a Cadet Officer, sailing with the Union-Castle S.S. Company, I was instructed to join the
“Drakensberg Castle” on 18th December 1953 to take her to Newcastle for Dry-docking , on arrival I was transferred to the “Roxburgh Castle” in a Sunderland dry dock, a Christmas time never to forget- hence on the 18th January 1954 we left on a round trip to Capetown, ( arriving back in the U.K. March 18th – full of Oranges) this had been my 10th voyage with
‘ The Lavender Hull Mob’.
Here I must take you back to February 25th 1801, when my 3xGreat Grandfather Peter Tillman ( b.1768 ) a yeoman Farmer ( as was his Father and Grandfather ) from Lympstone, in S.Devon, married Tammy Warren (b. 1782) from Withycombe Raleigh – a longish walk, or quick horse ride away from Lympstone.
Cutting to essentials – Peter died young in 1816 – leaving Tammy a widow, with her three existing children to look after – Thomasin b. 1803, George b.1805, and John b. 1811. It seems however that she was not penniless, as Peter had made provision for her in his will.
For certain, the next record I found, was when Tammy married her daughter Orf ! in 1821, to a Mr Henry George Ellington ( Mate of the “Seaflower ),who whisked Thomasin away to Sunderland – the first to arrive !! about the same time my direct 2x Great Grandfather George went to London to become apprentice to a Carriage Lamp Maker.( Another story.)
This left Tammy with young 10year old John. Then in 1822 Widow Tammy married widower ( with five young children) Thomas Goodsir Master Mariner (of the Brig “Transfer” from Scarborough) – Taking young John – off they went to live in Scarborough.
Next event, was Young John, by then 14yrs old, joined the “Fenwick” of Sunderland as an Apprentice in 1825.
Time line :
1831. Thomas Goodsir dies and Tammy moves to Sunderland to be close to Thomasin .
1834. In February Tammy (aged 52 yrs dies and is buried in the churchyard at Holy Trinity
Bishopwearmouth Sunderland).
On the 10 th May Tammy’s son, John now 2nd Mate on the ‘Denton’ married Margaret
Tullick (daughter of a Master Mariner) in St Peter’s Church Monkwearmouth. The
chief witness was Thomasin (John’s sister).
1836. An Architect was born to Margaret and named John.
1841. Captain John’s first daughter – Mary Isabella was born.
1844. Capt. John and Margaret’s second daughter Louisa was born;
1852. Another Architect was born – Thomas, who would become a partner in the firm
1858. Thomasin died aged 55years.
1862. Mary Isabella married William Turnbull on 20th January at St Michael’s All Angels
1863. Mary Isabella gave birth, to what would be her only daughter Dorothy, as in fact, on
the 1st Sept 1873 William at the age of only 34 died.
1868. Captain John died, while on his ship the ‘Royal Arch in Sulina (Danube)Roumania.
1880. Last of the Captain’s daughters Louisa married the Rev Alan Wilson.
1887. Captain John’s wife Margaret died. 1890. Louisa aged only 45 years died;
1892. At the young age of 40years Thomas, who had not been in good health died.
1899. On the 31st Dec saw the death of our Architect John Tillman FRIBA, last surviving
member of Captain’s family Mary Isabella died in 1907.
Best
John
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Fascinating reading, John. So easy to follow when you do it in a timeline like that. After all this time I feel as if I know these people.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Morning Westoe
The hidden plus for time zones, are that now I have 'Beaulieus' for breakfast - BUT also for Lunch and Supper thanks once again, must be under snow again ? When I am allowed, (smile) will let you know how it goes.
Happy digging ! preferable in FindMyPast and not snow !
Best
John
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More on Captain John and how He arrived in Sunderland!
Born on the 6th Jan 1811, John to Peter & Tammy Tillman, he was baptised in St Marys Church Lympstone on the 30th Jan.[/i]To avoid confusion ( his son was also named John), we will refer to him as Capt John- the reason for this you will soon see.
His childhood must for him been somewhat confusing, at the tender age of five and a half yrs, his father died. It appears at this time, he with his mother Tammy, elder sister Thomasin then 13yrs and brother George 11yrs, moved into Exmouth. His next big moment, would be either when George left for London (to become Apprentice Carriage Lamp Maker) or when Sister married (1821) and went to live far away in Sunderland. All this followed by Mother getting married to a sea Captain the next year, and off the three of them went to Scarborough, where he would live with the sea Captain’s five children –“ strange life “ he must have thought ! Even this was not for long, as in 1825 he joined his first ship the ‘ Fenwick’ as an Apprentice, at Sunderland.
Not surprising then , when in Dublin twenty-six years and many sea miles later, when the Registrar wrote in birthplace Sunderland, (John never corrected it). Further on Masters certificates, is the fact that in the 1850’s ‘the powers that be’ had decided that all must have certs ( To prove they could do the job, even though they had been doing it for many years !!!!) John.T age 40 at the time had already been at sea for 26 yrs, if he was one of ours I know how he felt!! - The claim for his certificate of service, was made in Dublin ( over a Guinness ? ) from actual Lloyds records ships are correct, but dates very roughly, When & where born someone (the Registar) has put in Sunderland - In John’s handwriting is 6th Jan 1811.
Apart from his sea career, I cannot find many personal details on Capt. John, but the first hint that there might be a family contact was when I came across the following, pointing out that Tammy’s daughter Thomasin was a Witness to John’s marriage (Tammy herself having died in the Feb of that year)
Record No. 367921.1 Location. Monkwearmouth Church. St Peter
10 th May 1834 John Tillman (Bachelor), of this parish married Margaret Tullick(Spinster) of this Parish - Witnesses : THOMASIN ELLINGTON & Thomas Allen
However it was not for another two years that I eventually found the truth.
Best
John
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Am now searching for a Duncan Wilson ( again ) - he might have been badly injured in WW1 and had face surgery, but his discharge ( if it was him - age about right and could have been in the 11th Durham Light reg 12410) from hospital does not show any address.
All I have for certain on him is this :
Louisa The youngest daughter on the 14th July 1880 at the Herrington Street
Wesleyan Chapel married the Rev Alan Wilson of Middleton - it was stated that she was
the daughter of the Late John Tillman Master Mariner and Ship owner.
S/land echo 7th March 1890 – Died suddenly – Madge age 7 only daughter of
Louisa(Tillman) & Rev Wilson at Middleton Nr Morpeth.
Later that same year Louisa died, aged only 45 years.
Leaving Alan with a very young Duncan born in 1884 in Hartburn Morpeth Northumberland to bring up – their only remaining child.
Not a lot of info on Louisa, so followed Duncan through to 1901, where age 17yrs, he was
still living at home with father ( The retired Rev. ) at 13 Sanderson Road Jesmond Newcastle
on Tyne and working as a clerk for the Liberal Ass. Looks also as though Alan had remarried
in 1900( to his servant ) Mary, and they had a boy called Allan.
All were still in the same 8 roomed house in 1911, The Rev age 67 , Mary 50, Duncan 27,
unmarried and working as a Warehouseman ( Ships Stores )
1912 At St Andrews cemetery Jesmond – Gravestones Page 180
Erected by Duncan Wilson “In loving memory of my dear Father Revd. Alan Wilson, died 19th April 1912, aged 69 – 27 yrs Presbyterian Minister North Middleton”.
Probate Calendar
Allan Wilson of 8 St Georges terrace jesmond Northumberland died 19 April 1912 Newcastle Upon Tyne. Administration Newcastle Upon Tyne to Mary Wilson, widow
Effects £2984 11s
Seems rather a lot for a Reverent ! or maybe could have been part of Louisa's Dowry.
Best
John
p.s Have already tried on here for Duncan, but am really blocked on- if it was him in Hospital,- Queen's Hospital Sidcup, the Doctor Archivist at the hospital would also like to Know.
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Tried for Duncan on Northumberland forum under ' Another lost Wilson' but since he might have been with The Durham Light Inf - thought would try here, just in case.
Last on Hospital Report reads: 28.4.21 Discharged to Home.
But where was home, I suppose if he went back to Jesmond, step mother & Brother might show if an Electoral roll existed for 1921? but he would not show till 1922 ?
Best
John
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Hello Westoe
Thanks for the info re Madge and Louisa, and yes would like info from the 'Echo' on Louisa's death, being John's younger sister have gone back to this post.
Still tied down with other duties, so unable to do much in the way of research re 'Duncan', feel would have to find out first if it was he who went to war and was so badly injured - but HOW ?
Best
John
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Hello John,
Newspaper notices sent by email.
Re Duncan - a few thoughts occur.
1) Sending for the birth certificate will tell you if you have the *right* Duncan Wilson. However, it is my understanding, (and you will have to check with other RootsChatters about this because I have no personal experience) that you can specify that you want the certificate *only* if the parents' names are Louisa and Allan. If it is the *wrong* DW, they will refund your fee and not send you anything.
2) Was DW perhaps a member of the British Legion? Here in Canada, the Royal Canadian Legion magazine "The Last Post" certainly used to be, perhaps still is, searchable online. If he was a member, there should be an obit there, and likely with more information than a death notice in the newspaper. Try the various local Legion branches as well. Who knows? - you may luck out with a photo!
3) Put this on your list against your possible research visit to the NE. The *possible* DW died 1977 - that's almost 60 years on from the Armistice. Here anyway, from 1970 on, the local newspapers in Remembrance Day articles made mention of as many local surviving WWI veterans as they could. You may find him in the local newspaper files at the local public libraries.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes will try those ideas.
Can anybody tell me, please, when electoral rolls restarted after the First World War? As still think this might be the only way of filling in the long gap in Duncan's life and also where I might find them.
Best
John
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Thought I would look for our Duncan Wilson, amongst those lost at sea in WWI.
But wasn't our Duncan, this lad came from Lieth - lived at 207 Easter Road - was born 1884 in Edinburgh and was a Cook on the 'Warsaw', when she was torpedoed on the 20th December 1917 - he was supposed drowned at sea.
In case anyone is searching him.
Best
John
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Morning Westoe
The young Duncan who had been wounded in the face and was getting treatment at Queens Hospital, have now been given proof that he was not our Duncan :-
Hamilton Advertiser 29.09.1917
"War Honour,- Mr W.H.Wilson of Tedshill, Strathaven, has received word that his son, Private Duncan Wilson, Durham L.I. has been awarded the Military Medal. His commanding Officer congratulated him, saying " It is the opinion of the Colonel and myself that you have done more than could be expected of any runner, and you have been decorated with the Military Medal, which you thoroughly deserve"
Pte Wilson joined the Army on the 10th August 1914, and was wounded on the16th September 1916 ( The second day of the Tanks ). He has now been wounded a second time, August 22nd 1917 - gunshot wound in the face and part of his jaw blown away. His father, who has been receiving word daily from the Matron, has just been advised that he is now out of danger.
His younger brother was wounded in July, and is now convalescent. He is in the Scottish Rifles."
We do know that Duncan had many operations and in fact did not leave Hospital until the 28th April 1921.
If his family should read this, please get in touch by P.M. as I can let them have further personal info
Best
John
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Hello John,
Good work! Even negative information can be useful. This makes that DW born 19 Dec. 1883, died 1977 look even more probable. A bit more follows by PM.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Yes agree, but how to fill the gap between 1912 and 1977 ? WW1 would be first search, but can find nothing for him in Army or Navy, if due to his religious upbringing, he was a conscientious
objector, that might be a possible or since we know that he was a warehouseman ( on Ships Stores), maybe he went in the Merchant Navy ?
After searching through hundreds of Duncan Wilsons, I did at least find that in fact, with only one first name, there are not so many after all, however, only marriages seem to be late for him?
1. Sept 1928 an Edith.A.Smith in Prescot 8b 1484
2. Sept 1931 an Ellen Lee in Croydon 2a 1338
3. 1942 Deborah Tannenbaum 3b 1013
Then see that a Duncan Wilson left Southampton on the 13th May 1954 aboard the 'Queen Elizabeth' ( tourist class with two bits of luggage) and landed in New York 18th May - note immigration ( No. maybe passport ?) V 71883.
Best
John
p.s. Since he would have been Tammy's Great Grandson ( from her Granddaughter Louisa), I feel I should keep searching - but where?
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Hello John,
I don't see any other way except starting from the ends, from what you already know, and slogging it towards the middle.
The 1883 birth certificate will tell you if the 1977 death is your DW.
The 1977 death certificate will give you an addresss, probably an occupation, cause of death and name of informant.
From the address at death you can probably suss out whether it was a private home, a hospital, a care home, an asylum etc. Google Earth will help too if the building still exists. If a private home, then Northumberland Archives may have rates books etc.
The name of the informant may give a clue.
Try tracing the subsequent lives of the stepmother and stepbrother. Ancestry.ca has a free W/E for British records on now, Feb. 6 - 8. You have to register for a free account to use it.
Try the younger generation of Beaulieus - someone may have the ancient photo album.
Try the Presbyterian churches nearabouts to the address at death. Since DW was raised Presbyterian, he may have continued in that affiliation.
Erm ... you've probably thought of all these already. And, ... when all else fails ... keep faith in chance. Someone else may find your threads here at RootsChat years from now and try to contact you. LUCK plays a bigger part in research than most people acknowledge. I apologize that I can't be more useful.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, John,
Here's what I mean about LUCK. Whenever I'm signed in here, I skim the recent threads in the Durham and Northumberland sites. Have a look at this Good News! thread below esp. reply #10 which identifies two Morpeth care homes.
The topic was originally started in August 2008. Out of the blue, nearly seven years later, the poster got masses of accurate information.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=321110.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=321110.0)
"Hope springs eternal."
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello Westoe
Thanks for goodies on 'Goodsir' ( great help when building a picture ) and on Duncan - though am not sure he would have gone back to Morpeth, as last that I had was that he was living in Jesmond.
Sorry for late reply -( due to medical problems !! ) - so this is what old age is all about (wry smile ),
and of course missed the chance of a lifetime - of free 'Ancestors' !
Thanks again
Best
John
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Semi conclusion to the history of ‘Tillman Family’ of Sunderland.
Having at last found that Louisa’s Duncan did live on, I think it might be time to summarise and move on to London and my 2 x Great Grandfather George Tillman 1805 – 1882 ( Older brother of John b.1811).
In 1821 widowed Tammy married her daughter Orf, , to Henry Ellington ( Mate of the ‘Seaflower’ ) our George was most likely already an apprentice Carriage Lamp Maker in London and daughter Thomasine, had gone north with Henry to live in Sunderland.
By 1822 this left Tammy with an eleven year old John, who she took with her to Scarborough when in that year she married Widower Thomas Goodsir - Captain of the Brig ‘Transfer’, and owner of five children.
John, who like his brother and sister, was born in Lympstone, Nr Exmouth, S. Devon, and was to become the founder of the ‘ Tillman Family of Sunderland’ at the age of 14 he joined his first ship the ‘Fenwick’ as an Apprentice in Sunderland. John in 1934 married Margaret Tullick ( one of the witnesses was his sister Thomasine ). - Captain John died at Sulina on his ship ‘ Royal Arch’ in 1868.
The ‘Tillman Family of Sunderland’ truly started in 1836, when John Tillman (a future Architect of Sunderland ) was born, Margaret went on to have six children, as far as can be seen, of these, four made it through to adulthood – the Two Architects John and younger brother by sixteen years, Thomas, neither married as far as can be seen and therefore ,we assume no Tillman offspring. However there were also two daughters Mary Isabella b. 1841 and Louisa b. 1844.
Mary married William Turnbull in 1862, and in 1863 Mary had her little lamb and named her Dorothy, unfortunately William died on the 1st September 1873, Aged only 34 yrs.
In 1890 John ( the Architect) quote “ The Bride was given away by her Uncle Mr John Tillman, of Clifton Villas” – saw Dorothy married to Lewis John Jillings of Norfolk
Dorothy & Lewis had a son Ronald b. 1897 - killed in WWI 19th Aug 1916 at Ypres, and two daughters – Doris May b. 1894, who in 1920 married Charles .L. Beaulieu and produced at least six children ( Audrey.A. being born the same year as I ). Second daughter
Gwendoline b. 1899 married Henry.M.Cornish, in 1921, but no further trace.
Finally Louisa, in 1880 married the Rev Alan Wilson, their little lamb – Madge – died suddenly in 1890, aged only seven yrs, followed later in that year by Louisa herself.
However their son Duncan b. Dec 1883, kept going for 93 years through till 1977, I am sorry I never met him. In 1920 he married Jessie Wilson (a second cousin) in Glasgow.
Jessie had a son Alan b. 1921 in Glasgow, and a daughter Jessie Tilman Wilson b. 1925 in Newcastle. Sadly Alan was killed in 1939 while serving with the RAF in Bomber command..
Young Jessie, I believe went on to marry Frank Rogers and produce an Alan Rogers.
So to London forum? and ‘The Lympstone Lad who Lit the London Hackney Cabs’ though not sure, as some went to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and George’s daughter Lavinia married an Angas and ended up in Sunderland !!!
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Two major brickwalls that I have NOT been able to work thru ( though I had good rootschat help ) are
1. What happened to Thomasin's Husband - Henry Ellington, because by the 1841 Census - Thomasin, had become Thomasin Wilkinson ( and so far have not found a marriage), in 1834 at her brother's wedding, she still was under the name of Ellington.
2. Concerns two of Thomasin's children - see " Two Chippies and a brickwall or what happened to Mabel and Mary" and of course their children, if they existed.
Any thoughts please
Best
John