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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: mrs.tenacious on Saturday 15 June 13 16:34 BST (UK)
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On ITV, 9pm, Tuesday 25 June.
Sort of 'Who Do You Think You Are', but the celebrities are looking at one ancestor only, and their workhouse records.
I'll be watching!
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On ITV, 9pm, Tuesday 25 June.
Sort of 'Who Do You Think You Are', but the celebrities are looking at one ancestor only, and their workhouse records.
I'll be watching!
Thanks for pointing it out, - it definately sounds interesting! (It's on my birthday though, - so I might have to record it:-)
Romilly.
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Thanks - Wish they had asked me for our relatives in the Isington workhouse :)
Kay
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I'll record it in case I don't have time to watch it that night. Is it a series, if so I'll have to set series record as we go away a couple or so days later.
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There's two episodes, but it doesn't say when the second one is. Am presuming it would be the following Tuesday at the same time, but no confirmation yet.
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Thanks. I'll set the recorder later when my OH has finished watching the news, then I won't forget.
Lizzie
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Details on Eposide 2 here www.itv.com/presscentre/ep2week27/secrets-workhouse
Monica :)
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Thanks Monica :)
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I am looking forward to it (how sad/crazy are we ;D). I have linked this programme to here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,647367.msg4976478.html#msg4976478 - thought Carol and others following that story might connect with the documentary too.
Monica
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Some pretty good shots of Southwell inside and out.
TV programme, did anyone else watch it? Tues June 25th.
Barbara Taylor Bradford
Fern Brittain
Brian Cox
Charlie Chaplins granddaughter.
I had not realised that when someone died at the workhouse, sometimes their bodies were used in Medical Schools for dissection.
Moderator comment: topics merged
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Hi everyone :)
Missed this . Does anyone know if it will be repeated ? I know sometimes they repeat programmes same week but later at night .
Reason i missed it was the Ken Loach film/documentry on Film 4 called The Spirit of 45 , wich i would highly recommend . Some great old footage and testimonials
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Not sure if it is repeated, but it is on itvplayer.
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I hope it makes it to Australia - I'd love to see it so will have to keep my eyes peeled! :)
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Not sure if it is repeated, but it is on itvplayer.
Thanks :)
I will see if i can borrow someones computer for an hour tomorrow (quite a few folks here just have phones and not a pc) .
What was programme like , anyone see it ?
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Felicity Kendal next week.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=650560.0;last_msg=4982542
Oops sorry I doubled up ::)
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What was programme like , anyone see it ?
Personally I found it watchable, but I didn't learn much more than I had read about already, and the different stories did jump about a bit. Won't go into any more detail in case some will be watching either a repeat, or on iPlayer. Will watch the second episode next week, too.
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I found it quite uncomfortable when Brian Cox started ranting about the injustice of his ancestor being labelled a malingerer, as though it was the researcher's fault.
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I found it quite uncomfortable when Brian Cox started ranting about the injustice of his ancestor being labelled a malingerer, as though it was the researcher's fault.
Yes I did too - the researcher didn't quite know what to say to him, I thought it was embarrassing behaviour.
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Was it a bit ,
tv luvvies shocked by British working class social history ?
Oh gosh ! ;)
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Was it a bit ,
tv luvvies shocked by British working class social history ?
Oh gosh ! ;)
Just a bit!!
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Was it a bit ,
tv luvvies shocked by British working class social history ?
Oh gosh ! ;)
Just a bit!!
Absolutely! I really felt for the researcher. I doubt whether she'd ever seen such a reaction, and wonder if he'd have blasted off like that if there hadn't been a camera present ;)
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I found it quite uncomfortable when Brian Cox started ranting about the injustice of his ancestor being labelled a malingerer, as though it was the researcher's fault.
Yes I did too - the researcher didn't quite know what to say to him, I thought it was embarrassing behaviour.
And the Oscar goes to .....Brian Cox ;D
Have to agree it was a cringe worthy moment. Poor lady from the Mitchell Library looked stunned and uncomfortable.
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And the Oscar goes to .....Brian Cox ;D
Have to agree it was a cringe worthy moment. Poor lady from the Mitchell Library looked stunned and uncomfortable.
Must admit I got a bit worked up too BUT it was the way he was treating that original index book that was getting to me :-X ^^^
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Hi all,
May I recommend the following book:-
A Grim Almanac of the Workhouse by Peter HIGGINBOTHAM, ISBN 978-0-7524-8739-7.
Victor
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And the Oscar goes to .....Brian Cox ;D
Have to agree it was a cringe worthy moment. Poor lady from the Mitchell Library looked stunned and uncomfortable.
Must admit I got a bit worked up too BUT it was the way he was treating that original index book that was getting to me :-X ^^^
I thought he got quite righteously annoyed about the way people had been treated, and made it clear that he was not directing his anger at the researcher. I think she was embarrassed by the camera (as indeed I would be in similar circumstances) and not by him.
To find one of my ancestors living on a staircase >:( >:( >:( in a documented return would have left me feeling sick to my stomach as well. Let alone people making judgements on folk in the workhouse because they felt they were undeserving poor.
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I thought he got quite righteously annoyed about the way people had been treated, and made it clear that he was not directing his anger at the researcher. I think she was embarrassed by the camera (as indeed I would be in similar circumstances) and not by him.
To find one of my ancestors living on a staircase >:( >:( >:( in a documented return would have left me feeling sick to my stomach as well. Let alone people making judgements on folk in the workhouse because they felt they were undeserving poor.
His performance came across, to me anyway, as pure ham......... and I found myself more annoyed at the contempt with which he was treating precious records.
Having read a number of these Poor Law Applications reports for my own ancestors,the regime and times were brutal but at least they did something which they never did for the starving in Ireland during the worst years of the Famine.
However to quote LP Hartley " The past is a foreign country they do things differently there"
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According to the historian AN Wilson in his book The Victorians
"The years 1837-44 brought the worst economic depression that had ever afflicted the British people . It is estimated - and we are speaking here of the years before the Irish famine- that more than a million paupers starved from simple lack of employment".
I wonder what happened when the workhouses were full ?
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I thought he got quite righteously annoyed about the way people had been treated, and made it clear that he was not directing his anger at the researcher. I think she was embarrassed by the camera (as indeed I would be in similar circumstances) and not by him.
To find one of my ancestors living on a staircase >:( >:( >:( in a documented return would have left me feeling sick to my stomach as well. Let alone people making judgements on folk in the workhouse because they felt they were undeserving poor.
His performance came across, to me anyway, as pure ham......... and I found myself more annoyed at the contempt with which he was treating precious records.
Having read a number of these Poor Law Applications reports for my own ancestors,the regime and times were brutal but at least they did something which they never did for the starving in Ireland during the worst years of the Famine.
However to quote LP Hartley " The past is a foreign country they do things differently there"
We'll have to agree to disagree about Brian Cox, I found myself much in sympathy with him.
The past is indeed a foreign country, but it doesn't prevent you from feeling angry about what went on there. It is, indeed, how we learn what not to do again.
Will be interesting to see what other discoveries come up in the next episode
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We'll have to agree to disagree about Brian Cox, I found myself much in sympathy with him.
The past is indeed a foreign country, but it doesn't prevent you from feeling angry about what went on there. It is, indeed, how we learn what not to do again.
Will be interesting to see what other discoveries come up in the next episode
I thought that he was incensed at the circumstances also.
My grandfather (born 1877) was never in the workhouse, nor any of his family I think, but the fear of it was very real to him. He would talk of it often when I was a child (it was then our local hospital) but he often referred to it as 'the workhouse'.
Falkyrn,
there were workhouses in Ireland also - not sure what you mean there.
heywood
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We'll have to agree to disagree about Brian Cox, I found myself much in sympathy with him.
The past is indeed a foreign country, but it doesn't prevent you from feeling angry about what went on there. It is, indeed, how we learn what not to do again.
Will be interesting to see what other discoveries come up in the next episode
I thought that he was incensed at the circumstances also.
My grandfather (born 1877) was never in the workhouse, nor any of his family I think, but the fear of it was very real to him. He would talk of it often when I was a child (it was then our local hospital) but he often referred to it as 'the workhouse'.
Falkyrn,
there were workhouses in Ireland also - not sure what you mean there.
heywood
When I read some of the Poorhouse Inspectors comments about some of my own ancestors I was angry about what was said and implied in their language but Mr Cox's performance came across to me as exactly that, a performance for the benefit of the program and the cameras. He came across much better in an earlier program concerning the poor in (I think) Dundee where some of his other ancestors lived and worked in the Jute industry.
With regard to the Workhouse situation in Ireland my comment was in regards to those who couldn't get into the workhouses - In Ireland there was no legal system for Poor Relief and the workhouse system was introduced there around 1838 by a British Government who probably had the best of intentions. The Famine struck just shortly after the system was introduced and during their building programme and they were quickly overwhelmed. Some buildings intended to house a few hundred people held nearly two thousand and still there are images of hordes of people outside these places clamouring to get in. While this situation may seem strange to those of us in mainland UK brought up with the threat of the workhouse as a place you never wanted to go to the stark alternative for these people was get in or die because outside there was next to nothing - some soup kitchens were set up but many of these were later closed down by Government order.
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Thanks, I misunderstood your point there re Ireland.
With regard to BC - I will have to watch him again. I just thought he was 'over the top' in general and therefore sincere in his reaction.
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I thought that he was incensed at the circumstances also.
My grandfather (born 1877) was never in the workhouse, nor any of his family I think, but the fear of it was very real to him. He would talk of it often when I was a child (it was then our local hospital) but he often referred to it as 'the workhouse'.
Falkyrn,
there were workhouses in Ireland also - not sure what you mean there.
heywood
When I read some of the Poorhouse Inspectors comments about some of my own ancestors I was angry about what was said and implied in their language but Mr Cox's performance came across to me as exactly that, a performance for the benefit of the program and the cameras. He came across much better in an earlier program concerning the poor in (I think) Dundee where some of his other ancestors lived and worked in the Jute industry.
With regard to the Workhouse situation in Ireland my comment was in regards to those who couldn't get into the workhouses - In Ireland there was no legal system for Poor Relief and the workhouse system was introduced there around 1838 by a British Government who probably had the best of intentions. The Famine struck just shortly after the system was introduced and during their building programme and they were quickly overwhelmed. Some buildings intended to house a few hundred people held nearly two thousand and still there are images of hordes of people outside these places clamouring to get in. While this situation may seem strange to those of us in mainland UK brought up with the threat of the workhouse as a place you never wanted to go to the stark alternative for these people was get in or die because outside there was next to nothing - some soup kitchens were set up but many of these were later closed down by Government order.
Hi Falkryn
"years 1837-44 brought the worst economic depression that had ever afflicted the British people... a million paupers (in Britain) starved from simple lack of employment" (ref my previous post)
The situation in "mainland UK" and its "poor relief" , late 1830s to early 1840s , dosn't seem to have been much better does it ?
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Hi Falkryn
"years 1837-44 brought the worst economic depression that had ever afflicted the British people... a million paupers (in Britain) starved from simple lack of employment" (ref my previous post)
The situation in "mainland UK" and its "poor relief" , late 1830s to early 1840s , dosn't seem to have been much better does it ?
Proportionally I think the Irish had us beat - over 1 million dead and 2 million emigrated from a much smaller population.
To be fair to the Georgians and early Victorians they had a lot of problems following the end of the Napoleonic wars, bad harvests, boom & bust economy etc their society, if not breaking apart was at least straining at the seams with the gap between rich and poor growing at an exponential rate.
However once they finally saw there was a problem they sought a solution. Unfortunately the idealogy that prevailed when it came down to providing relief was less than humane, to modern eyes, but was based in part on the harsher Scottish system of relief - a belief that if you were able bodied you could find work even if there were no jobs about. The workhouse was meant as a deterrant and the treated meted out to anyone unfortunate enough to get in was in part to make sure they didn't come back. One anomaly where care in the Workhouse was actually better than outside was in the supply of health care - inside you got it outside you didn't.
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All these programmes bring up some startling revelations - wouldn't make interesting TV if everyone had had perfect lives! - and many of the "celebrities" they feature have a shocked reaction (remember Jeremy Paxman in tears?!) but they handled it a lot better. I don't think anyone doubts that Brian Cox was upset by what he was hearing (and with good reason) but his reaction has, I think, been summed up perfectly by a previous poster as pure ham!
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Missed first episode , but managed to catch tonights . I liked Brian Cox , he talked straight and he was right in a lot of what he said (WW1 ? too).
We (rootschatters) are used to seeing poverty in the British records , child labour , ag labs , coal mines , mills , slums ("court" , "at back" "under dwelling" "in open" and the like) , Parish records with page after page of sudden early deaths due to disease or malnutrition . When i first saw the workhouse lists i remember being a little tearful too but , like most of us i guess, i became hardened to it . We have had time to get used to it . It can't be easy being confronted with it all in one fell swoop . Also i thought Barbera T Bradford was lovely . That letter must have been heartbreaking for her , "longing for my own people " . Anyone working class and from Yorkshire will understand that saying and how poignant it is
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I thought that last night's episode was very absorbing and helped to tie up the 'loose end' left from last week. It was heartening that Patrick Cox's relative was able to re-establish contact with his sons, - despite the efforts of the Workhouse to keep them apart. Also that he managed to see his Granddaughter before his death.
I found the section concerning Barbara Taylor Bradford's relatives being sent as 'Home Children' to Australia, particularly upsetting, as two of my Great Uncles were despatched to Canada under this scheme. I've never been able to trace what happened to them...
I was rather hoping that Barbara T.B would trace those half siblings of her Mother in Australia, - but perhaps she will try to? (I would certainly have to try, if it was me:-)
Romilly.
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When I started this thread, it was purely to give a 'heads-up' to anyone who may be interested in the forthcoming programme, and its topic. I had read a couple of books on workhouses, and had found the odd few of my ancestors who had been in them. In this modern age, I found it really difficult to comprehend what these people really went through.
The programme was fairly interesting, but I'm sorry to say I found Brian Cox rather irritating in his reactions - too 'luvvie' for my liking. The different stories were all terribly sad though, particularly Barbara Taylor Bradford's mother so wanting her little sister to come back home, and they never saw each other again.
But I have learnt a little more simply from the replies on here, particularly on the effects on the Irish, so thanks everyone for your comments.
Mrs. T.
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bodies from asylums were used too and no doubt other places will come to light one day.
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For anyone wanting to follow on, the workhouse institution is described here:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/
Another fine piece by Peter Higinbotham.
Brian
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I found Brian Cox and Barbara Taylor Bradford irritating although I found the programme interesting.
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I'm with Mrs T. Despite the irritations, as someone whose paternal grandparents were in and out of the Chelsea workhouse in the early 20th century, whose father was born there, and who had a great grandmother in Tattingstone with her children, I found the programme put some interesting flesh on the bones of what I have been able to glean from records and from Peter Higginbotham's fine writings on the subject. (Bizarrely, a great grandfather lived in Dedham in what had formerly been the workhouse and the hospital I was born in was also a former workhouse so I think I can claim some connection!)
MaxD
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I've had relatives in and out of the workhouse and the only way we found which was her family from the admission book. They went in and out together.
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I had read a couple of books on workhouses
One of which I highly recommend to anyone who hasn't already read it:
"Workhouse - The People, The Places, The Life Behind Doors" by Simon Fowler (published 2007).
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For anyone wanting to follow on, the workhouse institution is described here:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/
Another fine piece by Peter Higinbotham.
Brian
Seconded!
Mrs. T.
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And on the subject of workhouses, forgot to mention that an ancestor of mine worked as a Workhouse Officer for a few years, and his older brother (by only a year) was admitted to that same workhouse in his last few years, and died there.
I wonder how difficult that might have been, for both of them.
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Perhaps Barbara T B could contact Davina and Nicky and get herself on Long Lost Family to find the children who were shipped off to Australia? ;)
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I only managed to catch the second programme :'( My gt-gt-grandfather was a Met policeman, but he was stationed in the old Fulham Workhouse, with his wife, and a couple of his children were subsequently born there. Later, when the old workhouse was closed, he stayed on "in order to guard the premises" (according to that year's census). I heard no mention of this kind of 'in-house security' in the programme ... it would have been nice to understand my gt-gt-grandfather's role a bit better.
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The programmes had considerable potential but, in my opinion, failed to deliver on much of it. The format of jumping from one celebrity to another led to a lot of repetition as did the breaks for advertisements. Sadly the latter appears to be the norm for the modern documentary format where the makers appear to think the viewers have the attention span and memory of a goldfish.
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I only managed to catch the second programme :'( My gt-gt-grandfather was a Met policeman, but he was stationed in the old Fulham Workhouse, with his wife, and a couple of his children were subsequently born there. Later, when the old workhouse was closed, he stayed on "in order to guard the premises" (according to that year's census). I heard no mention of this kind of 'in-house security' in the programme ... it would have been nice to understand my gt-gt-grandfather's role a bit better.
Ex Policeman were often employed as Watchmen or Security Guards after being pensioned off. My Husband's paternal G/Grandfather was in the Metropolitan Police for 20+ years, and then pops up in Cardiff on the 1911 Census as a 'Police Pensioner' , guarding the offices of the Inland Revenue in Cardiff!
Romilly.
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My gt-gt-grandfather wasn't an ex-policeman though, in fact after he left his duties at the workhouse, he was promoted to Sergeant in 'T' division and retired a year or two later.
He and his wife and new baby had come to London from Buckinghamshire, with letters of recommendation from the local squire and other dignitaries, and he joined the Met straight away. The Fulham Workhouse posting was the first one he was given, and he stayed there for a number of years.
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The programmes had considerable potential but, in my opinion, failed to deliver on much of it. The format of jumping from one celebrity to another led to a lot of repetition as did the breaks for advertisements. Sadly the latter appears to be the norm for the modern documentary format where the makers appear to think the viewers have the attention span and memory of a goldfish.
I agree! I have just read an article in WDYTYA magazine which said originally there were ten stories but only five could fit into the two shows. Personally I would have liked another two or three stories instead of so much repetition. And Brian Cox got on my nerves slightly as well!
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personally,i watched the first programme and it seemed like another celebrity show. gave the second part a miss. what a shame it could have been a totally absorbing documentary had it been more in depth and less celebrity culture.
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Ooh, don't even get me started on WDYTYA! It is totally misleading to anyone just starting their family history, gives all the wrong messages and has plenty of mistakes! >:(
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That's very interesting about the security post, Wendus. It reminds me of a census entry I had for an ancestor/cousin way back in about 1871. His occupation was described in this way, too, for a private house. I wondered at the time what on earth it was all about (he wasn't an ex policeman); he was a picture frame gilder. I wonder if it was the case that this was seen as a more widespread occupation/housing solution than we might be aware of.
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I had seen people talking about this show on FB and here and so wanted to see it, but living in Canada I couldn't get it, however a fairy delivered to it to me and I was able to see both episodes.
I found it very interesting and did learn some things from it.
I could maybe see why parents put their children in the Barnardo's Homes and other's rather then in the workhouse.
Karen
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Karen, I, like you, understood so much more about the difference of the Barnado's and Workhouse issue. You have worked/researched so much on the Canadian Home Children history. I am really glad you got to see the two eposides. Leaving aside the 'celeb' angles (which I so agree with everyone's comments here, so tired the story), I found the two part programme very interesting.
Monica
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I found it quite uncomfortable when Brian Cox started ranting about the injustice of his ancestor being labelled a malingerer, as though it was the researcher's fault.
Having been away, I've only just watched that episode and I thought he was going totally over the top. As you say it wasn't the researcher's fault his ancestor had been in and out of the workhouse continuously for many years. I did think that the researcher was going to agree that he was a malingerer until she saw Brian Cox's face!!
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Poor old Brian - his family honour being maligned like that! I remember when reading the poor records for my own lot, one of my ggg grannies was described as being of an 'unreliable character' and, it has to be said, when you see the different stories she gave to the different inspectors, you would have to agree!
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Your 'unreliable characters' and 'malingerers' at least had some degree of freedom, unlike one of my poor ancestors ... whose wife had him committed to an asylum when there was nothing really wrong with him other than a bit of depression because someone had robbed him of his money! She then totally ignored him and went and bigamously married someone else! He was in the asylum until he died, with never a visit from anyone, although his eldest son did pass the story on to subsequent generations, so at least someone believed in him :)
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That's a really sad story, Wendus. At least his son was able to pass the truth of it on.