RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: GagaGram on Thursday 15 August 13 02:35 BST (UK)

Title: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Thursday 15 August 13 02:35 BST (UK)
I'm looking to find the death of my 3x great grandmother,who seems to have disappeared after 1851.

Alice Kenyon Westall/Westhall was born abt. 1825-26,place and parents unknown.She and her partner,Jams Westall(1824-1888 Rochdale) had my 2x great grandmother,Mary Ann Westall in 1850 Rochdale. No marriage record has been found. The 1845 Blackburn marriage betw. Kenyon-Westwell is not a match.
In 1851, James,Alice and Mary Ann are listed as Westhall, living at 15 Ann St. Greenock,Renfrewshire,Scotland. James is listed as a railway labourer.Census E.D.101- Greenock West-Pg.4. Also, living in the same household is poss. a sister/cousin? - Mary Kenyon Rowland & children. Mary Kenyon,born 1827-28 (dau. of Edmund/Edward Kenyon,corn miller) married William Rowland in 1845 Bury.

By 1865 Slaters Directory,James Westall is listed as a basket maker, living at 168 Oldham Rd. Manchester.
In 1861 Manchester census (2461/69 - pg.27) James Westall,brush maker, is living with his partner/later wife, Alice Barlow Westall and their 3mo. old son at 45 Crown Lane.
Daughter, Mary Ann Westall (1850) is living in 1861 Bury with her paternal grandmother at 14 Dawson Court.
Sister/Cousin, Mary Kenyon Rowland is also back living in Rochdale in 1861.She had a dau.,Alice Rowland (1850 Greenock,Scotland) and a son,WilliamRowland (1856 Arbroath,Scotland), who apparently died in Scotland before 1861.

Alice Kenyon Westall has not been found in any further England/Scotland census. No England death record has been found,that matches. An 1879 Manchester death of Alice Westhall does not appear to match.Age is right , but informant ,James Tetlow,coffin maker is not familiar. No death record betw.1851-1861 has been found in Greenock,Scotland. Could she have died in Arbroath,Scotland,poss. with the 2 Rowland children?

When James Westall finally married Alice Barlow in 1866 Rochdale,he is listed as a basket maker, widower, living on Crawford St. Rochdale.

Sorry, this is so lengthy,but wanted to include what I have ,so no one duplicates and wastes their time.Possibly, I'm missing something that another set of eyes can pick up.
Any help or suggestions to solve this long mystery,would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Thursday 15 August 13 12:17 BST (UK)
Hi
Alice Westall born 1853 Wardleworth Rochdale mmn Kenyon.
Did she survive, if not, where is she buried?

Heather
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Thursday 15 August 13 13:55 BST (UK)
Post deleted as i realised you had already discounted the blackburn marriage
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: Barbara.H on Thursday 15 August 13 20:11 BST (UK)
I had a look round Scotland's People but couldn't see anything. As Scottish statutory registration of BMDs didn't begin untill 1855, it may be that Alice died in Scotland between 1851-1855, and there is no burial record surviving. There are birth and death records in the statutory registers for William Rowland (Arbroath 1856) and a birth for Sarah Rowland  (Arbroath 1858)

There is a marriage in Manchester 1854, James Westall to Alice Williamson:
Manchester Cathedral July 10th 1854
James Westall (X), basket maker, bachelor age 26 of 63 Portugal St. Father Richard Westall, printer.
Alice Williamson (signed), spinster age 23 of 168 Oldham Rd. Father Samuel Williamson, saddler.
Witnesses were James and Matilda Cresswell.

This is certainly the James Westall that married Alice Barlow in 1865 (same occupation and father), but is he your James Westall who also married/lived with Alice Kenyon?

 :) Barbara
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Friday 16 August 13 04:32 BST (UK)
Hi Heather & Barbara,
Thank you,so much for your replies. I guess it can be assumed that Alice Kenyon Westall probably died in Scotland between 1851 & 1854.

Barbara, this 2nd marriage to Alice Williamson is news to me! Yes, this is the same James who was living with and later married Alice Barlow in 1866 Rochdale.
Blimey!! He was a partner/married to 3 women named Alice !! Well, at least he didn't have to remember a new forename each time he married !! That old bugger!

Could you tell me where Alice Williamson Westall was living in 1861 ? I wonder if she is the Alice Westhall whose death record I have for 1879 Manchester. Joseph Tetlow,informant could be her nephew. Or did she die before he married Alice Barlow in 1866,as he's listed as a widower?
This is really getting interesting,but confusing!

Thank you and all the other generous rootschatters for the time and help. I don't know where I'd be without you.
Best wishes,
Nancy
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Friday 16 August 13 09:00 BST (UK)
For reference, the witnesses at the second marriage:

Thomas Cresswell and Matilda Jackson at St Philip Manchester in 1859

Heather
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Friday 16 August 13 09:03 BST (UK)
John Tetlow married Matilda Williamson also known as Matilda Cresswell in 1855 Manchester St John
So that looks like the coffin maker's family.
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Friday 16 August 13 09:23 BST (UK)
It looks like Matilda and Alice were sisters

Baptism: 25 May 1834 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Matilda Williamson - Daughter of Samuel Williamson & Betty
Abode: Salford
Occupation: Saddler
Baptised by: H. Fielding
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: Barbara.H on Friday 16 August 13 13:27 BST (UK)
Blimey!! He was a partner/married to 3 women named Alice !! Well, at least he didn't have to remember a new forename each time he married !! That old bugger!

Could you tell me where Alice Williamson Westall was living in 1861 ? I wonder if she is the Alice Westhall whose death record I have for 1879 Manchester.

I think it's probably Alice Williamson Westall's death in 1879; first because of the connection with the Tetlows that Heather found  :D and second, James is still with his third, Alice Barlow Westall in 1881 (5 Fieldhouse Lane, Wardleworth, surname Westhall). She's still alive in 1911 according to census, with married daughter Mary Ellen Mitchell.
There is a death for Alice Westall on FreeBMDs - Alice Westall age 75, death reg. Rochdale 2nd quarter 1913. That could be Alice Barlow Westall's death.

 :) Barbara





Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Friday 16 August 13 13:51 BST (UK)
So did he divorce Alice number 2 or was he still married when he married Alice Barlow? ;D
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: Barbara.H on Friday 16 August 13 15:57 BST (UK)
Going back to Alice Kenyon, the first wife/partner..

Hi
Alice Westall born 1853 Wardleworth Rochdale mmn Kenyon.
Did she survive, if not, where is she buried?

Heather

There is also John William Westall birth reg Bury 1852 mmn Kenyon. John William Westall died 1854, death also registered Bury North.

If this is our family, it suggests that they were not in Scotland very long and were back in Lancashire by 1852. In which case, Alice Kenyon Westall ought to be in Lancashire somewhere around or after 1853 - dead or alive  ???
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Friday 16 August 13 17:10 BST (UK)
There is a death for Alice Westell aged 49 in 1856 Oswaldtwistle - she would be too old ???

Alice Westwell aged 2 in 1852 Blackburn

Alice Westell aged 0 in 1857 Rossendale

Alice Westwell aged 25 Scarisbrick in 1859

There are several others on www.lancashirebmd.org.uk ticking soundex

Heather
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Sunday 18 August 13 01:54 BST (UK)
Hi Heather & Barbara,
Thank you,both for the information.It seems that Alice Wiliiamson Westall  (Alice #2) was indeed related to the Tetlow coffin maker and died in 1879. So, this mystery surprise seems to be cleared up.
I still haven't found her in 1861 or 1871. Possibly she used her maiden name?
I'm not sure there was a divorce,as James probably didn't earn much being a basket maker. Seems he may have been a bigamist, but claiming to be a widower when he married Alice Barlow (Alice #3).

I can't find any further information about Alice Westall (b.1853 Rochdale). She was not living in 1861 Bury with her grandmother Westall. No death record found.
I'll send for the birth record for this Alice as well as the birth & death for John William Westall (b.1852 - d. 1854 Bury) to verify Alice Kenyon Westall (Alice #1) is indeed the mother. Possibly, the death record will show the address at death. Maybe this will show the whereabouts of Alice #1.

Now the main question. Could Alice Kenyon Westall (Alice #1) used her maiden name since she wasn't legally married? If so, there is an Alice Kenyon living in Wardleworth,Rochdale in 1861. She is of the right age(36 yrs) born Rochdale and unmarried. She's a domestic servant in the home of Robert Holt,widower. Census RG9/3045 Pg.16
There are a few Alice Kenyon marriages betw.1853-1861 for that area,but nothing found in the 1861 census.
Also, a few Alice Kenyon deaths betw. 1854 - 1900 in Bolton,Bury and Rochdale were the age is in range. How could I prove if any of these are the correct one?

Thank you, again, for the help. Any suggestions as to where to go from here? The search continues!!
Nancy
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: Barbara.H on Sunday 18 August 13 17:31 BST (UK)
Hi Nancy,

You might be onto something with the Alice Kenyon that's with Robert Holt in 1861, because it looks like they got married two years later:

24 Jan 1863, Wardleworth St James
Robert Holt, 37, widower, gardener of Ogden St, father John Holt, gardener
Alice Kenyon, 38, widow, of Ogden St, father Edmund Kenyon, miller
Witnesses Thomas & Mary Hardman

So same father as Mary Kenyon who married William Rowland, perhaps?

 :) Barbara
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 18 August 13 19:17 BST (UK)
Marriage: 14 Apr 1845 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancashire, England
William Rowland - (X), of full age, Mechanic, Bachelor, Bury
Mary Kenyon - (X), of full age, Spinster, Bury
Groom's Father: Joseph Rowland, Green Grocer
Bride's Father: Edward Kenyon, Corn Miller
Witness: James Wood; Ra. Crompton
Married by Banns by: F. A. Power Curate
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Monday 19 August 13 17:57 BST (UK)
Hi Barbara & Heather,
I can't thank you both enough, for the help. You are both stars!! You've helped me solve a long standing mystery of what happened to Alice Kenyon (Alice #1) and James Westall.
After marrying Robert Holt in 1863,they had at least 2 known children,Thomas (1862) and Sarah E.(1866). It appears Alice died in 1876 Rochdale.

I'm sending for the Manchester marriage record of James Westall & Alice (#2) Williamson in 1854, as well as the Rochdale marriage of Alice (#1) and Robert Holt in 1863 and 1876 death of Alice(#1).
I will,later, send for 1852 birth & 1854 death in Bury for John Wm.Westall as well as 1853 Rochdale birth of Alice Westall. This will prove if Alice Kenyon & James Westall are the parents.
I still can't find any further about Alice Westall (1853).

I do believe that Alice Kenyon (Alice #1) and Mary Kenyon Rowland are sisters,dau. of Edmund Kenyon. I've found a 1828 St.Chad,Rochdale bapt. for a Mary Kenyon,dau. of Edmund and Judith,dyer,of College St.Possibly, Edmund changed occupations?  I haven't found any other children or marriage & census records for Edmund & Judith. Any suggestions?

Again, thank you! There is joy in Bucks Co.,Pa.!!!
Regards,
Nancy
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Monday 19 August 13 20:30 BST (UK)
Don't waste money on the Holt/Kenyon marriage.
This is the information from the register that will be on the certificate.
The register is on familysearch and I have sent you a message with details of how to download a copy .

Jan 24th 1863 St Mary Wardleworth
Robert Holt 37 widower gardener Ogden Street father John Holt Gardener
Alice Kenyon 38 widow  Ogden Street, Father  Edmund Kenyon Miller
Witness Thomas Hardman and Mary Hardman

Heather
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Monday 19 August 13 20:36 BST (UK)
Charles Kenyon born 1st April 1822 christened 30th August 1822 at St Marys Wardleworth   parents Edmund and Judith
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: heatherjulie on Monday 19 August 13 20:59 BST (UK)
1841
St Mary's gate/ Blackwater
Spotland Nearer side
Rochdale
Edward Kenyon Corn Miller 50 (It could say Edmund) born in the county
Charles Kenyon 15

551/3/1
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Tuesday 20 August 13 01:38 BST (UK)
Hi Heather,
I made a copy of the Holt/Kenyon marriage.Nice to save a few $$. Wish they were all that easy!
Thanks for the 1841 Kenyon census  and christening information.
It appears Judith Kenyon (w/o Edmund) may have died before 1841 or was elsewhere. It seems strange there is a 1822 christening record @ St. Marys Wardleworth for son, Charles and a record @ St. Chad Rochdale in 1828 for daughter,Mary, but no record for daughter,Alice in 1825-26.

Thanks, again for your time and help.
Best wishes,
Nancy
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Tuesday 20 August 13 01:49 BST (UK)
Hi, again,
I just found on Lancs. OPC. a burial on 26 Dec. 1829 @ St. Chad,Rochdale. for Judith Kenyon, wife of Edmund,of College St.She was 36 yrs. old (b.abt. 1793).
Nancy
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: karri1312 on Friday 23 March 18 21:52 GMT (UK)
Very long shot that you might read this. I have only just joined Roots chat.
in the 1861 Alice is recorded as housekeeper to Robert Holt (my ancestor). The baby Harry Holt aged 4 months is actually the son of Robert Holt and Alice "Kenion" I have a pdf copy of the birth certificate.  She is registers the birth and calls herself Alice Holt formerly Kenion.
If you'd like a copy of the pdf, feel free to message me on (*)

Regards
Karen Barton



(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page:  http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Title: Re: Help!! Alice Kenyon Westall Is Missing!
Post by: GagaGram on Sunday 01 April 18 06:07 BST (UK)
Hi Karen,
Thank you for your post. I have a copy of the 1861 census,but for some reason I didn't realize that Harry Holt (4 mos.) was the son of Alice & Robert. I would appreciate if you could send me a copy of the birth record. I think you may have to post 2 more times before you can personal message me.

On the 1871 census, there is a son,Thomas Holt,9 yrs.old (born 1862) as well as a daughter,Sarah,5 yrs. (born 1866). Are Harry and Thomas the same child or did Harry die before 1871?

I have a copy of the marriage record for Robert and Alice,dated 24 Jan.1863. Let me know if you would like a copy.
When did Robert Holt & son,Thomas  die?
Thank  you for any help.
Regards,
Nancy