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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Lessa on Sunday 08 September 13 21:19 BST (UK)
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My GG Grandfather, George Coote, married Lucy Laurie Clarke on 8 November 1896 at St Mark's Walworth, Newington, London. George was 37 and a wharf labourer; his father James was deceased but had been a horse-keeper.
I have plenty of records about him afterwards from his 3 sons baptism records (George Francis, William Henry & Albert Charles); the 1901 census where the family was transcribed as 'Coster' which gives his year of birth as about 1859 and birthplace as 'St James, London, England'; and various electoral registers. I think that he was the George Coote who died in Apr-Jun 1903 in Camberwell as Lucy remarried in 1905.
I'm really struggling to find any records of his life before his marriage. I have found a possible in the 1881 census living at 15 Snowsfields, Bermondsey:
James Coote Head 44 Butcher Essex, Shalford
Ann Coote Wife 30 Wales, Aberyswith
George Coote Son 23 Carman London
Edward W. Coote Son 15 Butcher London
Mary Evans Visitor 23 Dressmaker Wales, Aberyswith
but I've been looking at it for many years and I'm still unsure whether it is the family. It also doesn't help as I can't find any records for the family on the 1861/71/91 censuses to try and dismiss them as a possibility. I do realise that if it is the family then Ann can't be George's mother as she is only 7 years older than him.
Any help would be most appreciated, even to narrowing down which parish records I should search for a birth in 'St James, London'.
Thanks for reading.
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hi if George coote age 23 is james son then he must have been married before
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Hi, yes I had noticed that, and did mention it above but may not have given it sufficient prominence. It did take me the longest time to notice it originally though *blush*. Thanks :)
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Hi Lessa! Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
Have you seen this 1871 census on familysearch?
Berwick Street, St James, Middlesex
John J COATE 34 Stratford, Essex
Mary A " 34 St James
Mary A " 15 "
George " 12 "
John J " 7 "
Edward W " 5 "
Charles " 2 "
I think this would fit the 1881 census you have, although I haven't seen the original. Maybe it's John James?
Toffee :)
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Hi again!
On FreeBMD there is a marriage between John James Coote and Ann Evans, Sep quarter 1880, St Olave 1d 360.
Also, I saw a Mary Ann Coote birth in Bethnal Gn, June quarter 1856, 1c 254. Maybe that is the registration name to look at.
Toffee :)
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Hi!
There is a George HENRY Coote registered in December quarter 1858 in Bethnal Green, 1c 269. There are however a couple of marriages in that area of George Henry Coote as well, so may not be him. You don't mention whether he was married before Lucy?
There is a death of a Mary Coote in March 1872, aged 36, in Westminster (1a 312), which would fit the Mary A Coote, mother, on the 1871 census.
I also noticed a John James Coote on familysearch born in Shalford, Essex. But I'll let you have a look at that one. ;D
Hope some of that helps!
Night,
Toffee :)
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Hi Lessa! Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
Have you seen this 1871 census on familysearch?
Berwick Street, St James, Middlesex
John J COATE 34 Stratford, Essex
Mary A " 34 St James
Mary A " 15 "
George " 12 "
John J " 7 "
Edward W " 5 "
Charles " 2 "
I think this would fit the 1881 census you have, although I haven't seen the original. Maybe it's John James?
Toffee :)
I've just found the family on Ancestry so I could look at the image. It does look like Coate but has been transcribed as Crate!
John J is from Shalford, Essex which has lots of Coote's so that definitely fits. Occupation is Packer.
I shall now go look at see if I can fit all the family information together and see if it works *crosses fingers*
Thanks so much! I shall report back when I have it sorted.
And, no, George is marked as a bachelor when he married Lucy.
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Well after much looking I can't see any reason why John James can't be my George's father.
I have found a few births in St James, Westminster:
Q. Jun 1853 Thomas John
Q. Mar 1861 Elizabeth Anne
Q. Jun 1863 John James
q. Mar 1869 Charles
So the last 2 fit with John James family, and there is a death for an Elizabeth Anne Coote in Marylebone in Q. Jun 1862. I can't find any more records for Thomas John.
There is a baptism in 1837 for a James Coote in Shalford, Essex and I can only find one family there in 1841 where he is also called James. Can't quite understand why after so many years he would suddenly choose to use the name John James but I'm not ready to dismiss it as a possibility yet.
I still can't find a possible in 1861.
I think it may be time to bite the bullet and buy some of the certificates to see what turns up.
Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
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My pleasure ;D
Hope it turns out to be the right family! Fingers crossed!
Toffee :)
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Hi the 1871 family are still Coates in 1861:-
John 24 occ Porter b Braintree, Essex
Mary 25 b St James
Mary Ann 5 b St James
George 2 b St Ann's
Elizabeth Ann 4 months b St James
Residing 39, Great Windmill Street, St James
Census ref RG09/62/60/28
Keyboard86
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Living just round the corner. How did I miss that! Thank you so much.
I think I have enough for now as I can't see any obvious holes in the theory. Will see about getting some certificates to fill in the blanks.
Many thanks to all who helped. It just shows how vital it can be to have new eyes look.
Will mark as completed but if anyone comes along in the future with new/conflicting info and/or a connection to these people then please do get in touch. Thanks again :)
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Living just round the corner. How did I miss that! Thank you so much.
I think I have enough for now as I can't see any obvious holes in the theory. Will see about getting some certificates to fill in the blanks.
Many thanks to all who helped. It just shows how vital it can be to have new eyes look.
Will mark as completed but if anyone comes along in the future with new/conflicting info and/or a connection to
these people then please do get in touch. Thanks again :)
First thing, if 1861/71 correct, then where/when was marriage John James to a Mary A and when did John/James become a Horse Dealer ( Big change of occupation ie Porter/Butcher, but not impossible)!
Keyboard86
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What I have so far is that John/James, son of William & Mary Ann, lived in Shalford, Essex up until after 1851. In the 1851 census his occupation in Shalford was Groom, so I am assuming for now that when he moved up to the big city he took whatever work was available Porter/Packer, and either moved onto Horses or George thought that sounded better than Butcher.
I will, as funds allow, try to get all the certificates that have been located so far, especially as getting any of the birth certs will give me a surname for Mary Ann as well as the occupation of John/James. I shall start with John James b. 1863 I think.
I have looked for a marriage but with no success so far. These are the ones I think are currently possibles:
Q. Jun 1857 - Greenwich - James Coote & Mary Reynolds
Q. Jun 1858 - Mile End - John Coote & Mary Ann Smith
Q. Mar 1859 - Bermondsey - James Coote & Mary Ann Walker
Q. Mar 1861 - St Luke - James Coote & Mary Ann Sarah Free
Q. Jun 1861 - Hackney - James Coote & Mary Fearchild
Q. Sep 1861 - Chelsea - James Coote & Mary Ann Francis
The 2 most likely registration districts are St James Westminster & Braintree but searching just those doesn't bring up anything that I can see as possibles.
I wouldn't put it past them not to have got married just to make my life even more difficult to be honest.
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Hi again!
On FreeBMD there is a marriage between John James Coote and Ann Evans, Sep quarter 1880, St Olave 1d 360.
Also, I saw a Mary Ann Coote birth in Bethnal Gn, June quarter 1856, 1c 254. Maybe that is the registration name to look at.
Toffee :)
From the marriage register St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey
August the something, there is no date, 1880 (the previous entry is August 2nd)
John James Coote, 40, widower, Butcher, of ? Place, Snows Fields, father William Coote, Carpenter
Ann Evans, 28, spinster, of 147 Snows Fields, father William Evans, Farmer
John James signed his name with a flourish, Ann made her mark
witnesses: John R? and Elizabeth Evans
Some of the Westminster baptisms have been transcribed and put online=, I had a look for your family but there are 2 other Coote families in the area at the same time, James & Eleanor (he's a sweep) and Charles & Charlotte (he's a plumber).
Remember that although civil registration started in 1837 it wasn't compulsory for births to be registered so there may not be births to find. The ones you identified earlier may belong to the other families.
Re marriages
26 April 1857 St Mary Magdalene Woolwich
James Coote, full age, bachelor, Porter of Callis Alley, father William Coote, labourer
(fathers occupation and James signature don't match 1880 entry)
27 Feb 1859, Bermondsey, Father = Mark, a dyer, signature doesn't match
28 July 1861, Chelsea, James is a baker as is his father James
I couldn't easily see the others, they may not be Anglican marriages.
Anyway hope this helps.
Dawn
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Hi!
There is a George HENRY Coote registered in December quarter 1858 in Bethnal Green, 1c 269. There are however a couple of marriages in that area of George Henry Coote as well, so may not be him. You don't mention whether he was married before Lucy?
Hi! Not sure that the George Henry Coote in Bethnal Green is correct - on familysearch there is a census entry for 1871 that includes George H Coote, 12, born Bethnal Green. Parents are George and Charlotte. Think that might rule out that birth.
Toffee :)
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From the marriage register St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey
August the something, there is no date, 1880 (the previous entry is August 2nd)
John James Coote, 40, widower, Butcher, of ? Place, Snows Fields, father William Coote, Carpenter
Ann Evans, 28, spinster, of 147 Snows Fields, father William Evans, Farmer
John James signed his name with a flourish, Ann made her mark
witnesses: John R? and Elizabeth Evans
That's fantastic, thanks Dawn
Some of the Westminster baptisms have been transcribed and put online=, I had a look for your family but there are 2 other Coote families in the area at the same time, James & Eleanor (he's a sweep) and Charles & Charlotte (he's a plumber).
Remember that although civil registration started in 1837 it wasn't compulsory for births to be registered so there may not be births to find. The ones you identified earlier may belong to the other families.
Re marriages
26 April 1857 St Mary Magdalene Woolwich
James Coote, full age, bachelor, Porter of Callis Alley, father William Coote, labourer
(fathers occupation and James signature don't match 1880 entry)
27 Feb 1859, Bermondsey, Father = Mark, a dyer, signature doesn't match
28 July 1861, Chelsea, James is a baker as is his father James
I couldn't easily see the others, they may not be Anglican marriages.
Anyway hope this helps.
Dawn
I had forgotten that registration wasn't compulsory. I seem to recall that at one time if you purchased the certificates from the local Record Office they would only send them if the parents details matched. A quick google tells me this is no longer always the case, which is a shame.
Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
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Hi!
There is a George HENRY Coote registered in December quarter 1858 in Bethnal Green, 1c 269. There are however a couple of marriages in that area of George Henry Coote as well, so may not be him. You don't mention whether he was married before Lucy?
Hi! Not sure that the George Henry Coote in Bethnal Green is correct - on familysearch there is a census entry for 1871 that includes George H Coote, 12, born Bethnal Green. Parents are George and Charlotte. Think that might rule out that birth.
Toffee :)
That's useful to know, thanks toffee :)
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You can still order from the General Register Office at Southport but as you make your application, you specify you don't know the reference numbers.
As you proceed with your order you specify the name of the child as you find it in the index or in this case force the issue and write John James, enter a date of birth as 01/01 and the year, the place of birth as the reg district you have found in the index and then specify the parents names. Obviously it would help if you knew what the mother's maiden name was but at this stage you don't.
If the entry doesn't match, you will get a refund and the GRO will search a year either side. The name could be John Joseph.
You can do the same with the local register offices, but you'll need to send a cheque each time. Some reg offices charge for searching even if the entry is not correct. Tends to be those offices that are really busy dealing with recent births and recent bereavements. The Wesminster reg office is always busy but it is worth trying John J in 1863 online with the GRO first stating his father to be John or John James.
Takes about 3 weeks to get a result but you get all of your £9.25 back if there isn't a match.
Or you can just take a £9.25 punt and order the cert for John J and it will be despatched within 5 working days.
Hope this helps
Dawn