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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: stormtroop on Monday 30 September 13 20:07 BST (UK)
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Something has always fascinated me about the English, why do they like the idea of a black sheep in the family??. Do tell , what is the appeal!!, I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine and proud of it, Scots non conformists, maybe it is the morality, but somehow going off the rails really never appealed.
I do find the English obsession with having something "nasty" in the family bloodline and then making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for it, when everyone else was working and staying on the straight and narrow really intriguing .
Oh I have a book on English executions so I love reading about how your ancestors were dispatched.
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It's not just the English who like a "Character"! ;D
I'm not being judgemental, but our friends in Australia do seem to be proud of their convict ancestors!! ;D
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That's simple. The black sheep made the news and so one can learn more about them. In this sense, they are much more rewarding subjects for research than those who boringly kept to the straight and narrow. From local newspapers I have learned that my g grandfather got his barn repainted and also that he once sang a duet with g grandma at a meeting of the 'Old Settlers Club.' Ho hum. On the other hand, I learned a great deal about another ancestor whose spectacularly scandalous divorce was lavishly covered by the local press.
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It's not just the English who like a "Character"! ;D
I'm not being judgemental, but our friends in Australia do seem to be proud of their convict ancestors!! ;D
Definitely so ;D I love my convict 4x great grandmother. She had "character" ;)
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stormtroop maybe your ancestors just never got caught ;D ;D
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Just what I was thinking, Giblet! ;D ;D
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We were fortunate that there was a fairly good records on my 4x great grandmother. It gave us a insight into her personality and her ups and downs besides her just been a name.
AND if it wasnt for her there wouldnt be a giblet ;D
This is going to be a great thread :D :D
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Something has always fascinated me about the English, why do they like the idea of a black sheep in the family??. Do tell , what is the appeal!!, I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine and proud of it, Scots non conformists, maybe it is the morality, but somehow going off the rails really never appealed.
I do find the English obsession with having something "nasty" in the family bloodline and then making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for it, when everyone else was working and staying on the straight and narrow really intriguing .
Oh I have a book on English executions so I love reading about how your ancestors were dispatched.
Depends on what you mean by "nasty" Sure there were some bad eggs around back then but there were also people who stole to survive. Food and clothing seem to be a luxury some people didnt have. Picture a young orphan living on the streets with no family to care for him/her. What was he/she to do to survive? Or a father who lost his job and had a family to care for.
One of my lot stole a cabbage from someone else's vege patch ::)
Another one of my convicts was executed for stealing a steer to feed his family :'(
Proud of my " black sheep"? Damn right i am :)
They all have a story to tell.
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My paternal gt.grandfather married 4 women!! My gt.grandmother was the only legal wife & was still very much alive when he married the other 3 in Fall River, MA. By then, presumably because he was a womaniser she had taken her daughter back to England so wife no.2 was married & produced 6 children but only 3 lived. That wife died so he remarried 6 months later & another 2 children were born - she died & wife 4 was in the picture 3 months later. Thankfully there were no children to the 4th wife but the 2 children to wife no.3 were adopted out when their mother died because her eldest daughter to the woman's first husband realised that it was a bigamous marriage & took my guy too court. Confused yet???
Anyway I ended up with more family than I thought I had & they have loved finding out about their ancestor.
Black sheep make a family history fun & stop it from just being a family tree.
A
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I wasn't aware that "the English" were obsessed by having something "nasty" in their family bloodline :-\.
You find what you find..... black sheep, skeletons rattling in cupboards, bounders, cads, decent people, heroes...no matter where you're from.
I'm Scottish and I've found a couple of fascinating black sheep in my family tree and discovered a couple of family secrets which have puzzled me. And like Erato has said, I've found out a lot more about my black sheep than all the other sheep put together. And they were Presbyterians!
So obviously, to quote Mae West "Goodness had nothing to do with it". ;)
Looby
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I do find the English obsession with having something "nasty" in the family bloodline and then making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for it, when everyone else was working and staying on the straight and narrow really intriguing .
Agree with this. Examples of mawkishness regularly seen on Who Do You Think You Are, when all sorts of excuses are made and wild stories concocted to explain misdemeanors or other undesirable actions of long dead ancestors.
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I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine and proud of it, Scots non conformists, maybe it is the morality, but somehow going off the rails really never appealed.
;D ;D ;D
There's many a non conformist Scot who was transported beyond the seas under sentence of a Scottish court ;D Those who were transported to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) have their details in the Tasmanian Archives. The convict records that those Archives hold are among the most detailed anywhere.
I have one Scottish ancestor who was transported to New South Wales. She was an arsonist. Her original sentence was commuted from one of death to one of life. Her NSW official records include details about her height, the colour of her hair, her eyes, her complexion and other personal details. I even know what clothing was supplied to her on embarking on the transport ship.
On the other hand, I do have Scottish ancestors who migrated to NSW several decades before "my" arsonist. Official records are scant on information about them.
I do agree with Ruskie re the mawkishness of TV programs offering all sorts of excuses and wild stories. Those excuses and wild stories develop a "life of their own" and so often become urban myths.
Some of the Tasmanian Archives Convict records show repeat offenders were in prisons in the UK several times before being sentenced to transportation. Other times the offence would in today's world result in a collective shrug of the shoulders. However, I find the TV programs often comment from a 21st Century viewpoint instead of attempting to understand the historical circumstances ..... for example, the development of Manufactories, the Enclosure of Commons, the Corn Laws, the Wesleyan Dissenters, the 18th and 19th Centuries understanding of the benefits of learning to read and to write, and soooooooooooooo many other topics. ;D
Cheers, JM
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And how could you not like a husband-and-wife team of serial blasphemers [my 8th g grandparents] who were both hauled into court repeatedly for diverse offenses against the public order, once for "swearing by the life of God & blood of Christ, & that hee was beyond God & above the heavens & the stars, at which tyme the sayd Andrews did seeme to have drunke too much & did at that tyme call those witnesses doggs, toads & hoores bird."
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;D
In an 1806 newspaper in Sydney Town NSW Australia there's a report of the editor's reading of London newspapers recently received by ship.
"A signal of instance of Divine correction occurred on Monday last at Stamford, which cannot fail to make impression upon the most profligate character:- As a young man of that town was giving vent to vehement passion, and uttering the most impious and blasphemous expressions he was suddenly struck dumb. He has ever since remained in the most deplorable state of mind, and is unable to articulate a single word."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/627095 20 April 1806 Sydney Gazette
Earlier in that article there's
:) mention of the King of Prussia and the King of Sweden and the Order of the Black Eagle....
:) Bonaparte will not let the Spaniards pay their accounts owed to the USA .....
:) the 'lower orders' of the peoples of Bath were not having their small pox innoculations and were succumbing.
And
:) :) :) The article I like best in that cutting is the one about the chook that is 24 years old, has reared 16 chickens when aged 24, and is still laying eggs.... What a cackle ;D ;D
Cheers, JM
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Two of OH's ancestors were sent from Ireland to Aus, as naughty people, one a catholic, 'tother a Prody. After getting their freedom, they had four children, and THEN got married, at the Catholic church :o ::)
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I dont know how my convict lot managed to have so many kids, they all lived in a one room hut. There would have been no privacy ???
[ We know it was a one room hut as there was a inquest into a baby's death in 1838 and the hut was described and the file also indicated that the baby slept between the mother and the wall, father slept on the other side of the bed and 2 small children slept at the foot of the bed]
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You just have to look at the actual crime and the severity of the punishment dished out for said crime. 1 I found, deportation for stealing half a loaf. There's the old saying, "Needs Must". If you were starving, then what's worst. The loaf or the colonies. At least with the loaf, there was a chance that you would not get caught. Some were "black sheep" just because they were caught. Others, just like today, had the wealth to bypass the legal system.
Regards
Malky
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stormtroop im sure there would be the odd one or 2 blacksheep somewhere in your family line, you just havent come across them as yet. Most of us have several hundred and even thousands of ancestors they couldnt have all been well behaved ;D
Oh and we cant forget the remittance family members who were banished to far off lands to save the family any further embarrassment ;D
Quote: Dark-side remittance men
Within Victorian British culture, this often meant the black sheep of an upper or middle-class family who was sent away (from the United Kingdom to the Empire), and paid to stay away. These men were generally of dissolute or drunken character, and may have been sent overseas after one or more disgraces at home. "Remittance men" also lived in several towns in the American [1] and Canadian West [2][3] There were also 'remittance women' but they are rarely discussed in scholarly works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance_man
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In answer to the original question/statement, bear in mind the thought that the ones caught for doing something wrong are the ones caught, many where not caught and hence no "black sheep" stories of them.
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Hi giblet, snap
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There is a very simple answer to why one would want a black sheep; because there is a wealth of detailed records retained.
Like it or not detailed records are kept for the very wealthy, the very poor, those in the forces and criminals.
That means that few detailed records are kept: Details such as height, build, complexion, hair colouring, distinguishing marks perhaps even clothing worn.
All details that put flesh on the bones of family history.
Whereas the vast bulk of the population live their lives with relatively little interaction between them and the authorities who keep records.
Cheers
Guy
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;D WONDERFUL!!! , love your replies!!, It seems I have just joined an excellent forum, informative, intelligent and amusing!!. I stand both corrected and interested in what I have been told, Thank you for your stories about your families. If I have any black sheep I do not yet know, I have only just started leaning genealogy-may be some of you could help me search for them!!.
My best wishes to all. look forward to reading a lot more on this forum.
Oh p.s I think the English DO have a thing about the " nasties" Lucy Worsley has a good prog on BBC 4 about murder and the English character.
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Oh p.s I think the English DO have a thing about the " nasties" Lucy Worsley has a good prog on BBC 4 about murder and the English character.
Sorry to correct but the title of the programme is British rather than just narrowing it down to the English!
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Oh p.s I think the English DO have a thing about the " nasties" Lucy Worsley has a good prog on BBC 4 about murder and the English character.
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OH :o You say this about the English when its America who has shows such as Cops and 48 hours etc. All real life crime [nasties] televised for your viewing ;D
[And i still havent worked out this quote thing when i just want to take a small piece of a reply ???]
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I definitely fit the OP's description as I'm very fond of all my naughty ancestors with the exception of one who was just too nasty to excuse in any way.
I love finding reports of their bad deeds in newspapers because, not only does it give an insight into their character, it can also reveal vital leads to other family members. For example its helped me find elusive marriages for siblings as sister/brother-in-laws have been mentioned or uncovered a previously unknown 2nd marriage for a mother.......and one day if I get really lucky I might just find a photo in the criminal records!!!
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[And i still havent worked out this quote thing when i just want to take a small piece of a reply ???]
You need to leave the "{quote author= . . . . .}" at the beginning, and the "{/quote}" at the end!
(Had to change the square brackets to curly brackets, but you know what I mean! ;D
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[And i still havent worked out this quote thing when i just want to take a small piece of a reply ???]
You need to leave the "{quote author= . . . . .}" at the beginning, and the "{/quote}" at the end!
(Had to change the square brackets to curly brackets, but you know what I mean! ;D
Thank you for explaining that :) I'll give it a go next time ;D
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I'm still looking for that elusive black sheep. The only thing I've found so far is that my great x3 grandfather was fined 20 shillings in 1850 for selling spirits at a fair without a licence. He was a licensed victualer at the time and claimed that he thought that licence covered him.
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Shouldn't laugh really, my g.gran was given 14 days in prison for assaulting a pub manager
with a pint "cup" newspaper report said she was known as"a very violent woman" Her twin
brother had 31 convictions for being drunk & disorderly.
3x.g.grandparents chased a baliff out of their house with a poker!
2xg.grandad assaulted someone with his "billycock"
Just a few of my ancestors who have put a bit of meat on the bones!
Jackie
Jackie
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Just what I was thinking, Giblet! ;D ;D
I wonder how I could search for them then??, oh you have got me started now!
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And how could you not like a husband-and-wife team of serial blasphemers [my 8th g grandparents] who were both hauled into court repeatedly for diverse offenses against the public order, once for "swearing by the life of God & blood of Christ, & that hee was beyond God & above the heavens & the stars, at which tyme the sayd Andrews did seeme to have drunke too much & did at that tyme call those witnesses doggs, toads & hoores bird."
I think I fit that bill now!, no need to go back in my family tree. :-[
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You just have to look at the actual crime and the severity of the punishment dished out for said crime. 1 I found, deportation for stealing half a loaf. There's the old saying, "Needs Must". If you were starving, then what's worst. The loaf or the colonies. At least with the loaf, there was a chance that you would not get caught. Some were "black sheep" just because they were caught. Others, just like today, had the wealth to bypass the legal system.
Regards
Malky
excellent point especially during the " Bloody Code " era
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I have just read the " Remittance man " post, now I appreciate this one. I was vaguely aware that the upper classes dealt with errant sons and daughters by sending sons abroad and daughters to Europe to be married off to minor aristocracy. I seem to remember that sons of aristocracy in the public arena were sent abroad if they got the lady's maid pregnant and the maid was sent away at the family's expence to some "aunt" somewhere to have the child.
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Altogether a great post , once again thank you for your informative replies, I have only just joined the forum. Your patience and replies are appreciated.
So, err, where would I start looking for these black sheep ancestors??.
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So, err, where would I start looking for these black sheep ancestors??.
The newspapers, especially small local papers.
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Reading some of the old court reports is fascinating and very distracting. Many of the assault cases sound exactly like the things you read in the local papers today, along the lines of "The witness saw the defendant staring at him in the pub and asked him who he was looking at and the defendant asked him who was asking and punched him in the face". Others are more specific to the times but have echoes of today's misdemeanours such as "furiously riding a horse along the high street".
One sad one that I found was of somone who slapped the rump of a horse carrying a drunk man home - the horse bolted and the man fell off, cracking his skull and later died. A random act of bravado that led to tragedy - like many of today's cases.
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I have a large wooden sheep with a thick black coat to commemorate all those wonderful, colourful characters! And agree with everyone else, we all need black sheep!
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I have a large wooden sheep with a thick black coat to commemorate all those wonderful, colourful characters! And agree with everyone else, we all need black sheep!
;D Oh that is brilliant!, I mean lateral thinking wit, love it. Can not think what I should get??. I have not finished my researches yet. I do have a piece of iron made into a Thors hammer pendant which I got from Norway, about four of my ancestors were Blacksmiths, oddly enough when I bought it a few years ago, I never knew this.
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stormtroop that must be beautiful! What a lovely thing to have.
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stormtroop that must be beautiful! What a lovely thing to have.
It is made of one piece of unpolished rough iron , so it is very artisan looking, did you know iron keep away evil, yeah!
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Mind , talking of black sheep, there is one type I am not sure you would like to have?, you would want to lock your bedroom door and eat out if they were around and that is the females who according to the female presenter of one programme said of them " they took their secrets to the grave with them".
This was a number of wives and mothers who used arsenic to rid themselves of " troublesome" children and husbands , as arsenic was freely available and mimicked a few diseases at the time doctors, who were none too bothered about how the poor died to be honest, just diagnosed a common illness. The programme was on some time ago and I forget what it was called , but it was very! interesting and in the early years of the 19th century , there was a bit of domestic poisoning about, quite a few of these women just did not get caught and they did take their dark secrets to the grave with them , in later years it became easier to catch them.
Black indeed , sometimes a little too dark.
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Properly known as Mjöllnir, Thor's Hammer is worn as a pendant by German Neopagan faiths.
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Properly known as Mjöllnir, Thor's Hammer is worn as a pendant by German Neopagan faiths.
I wore it because it just looked good, not a fan of hammers mind, I prefer a good set of screwdrivers meself ;D
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Hope it keeps you well protected! Doubt my sheep would look as good around my neck. lol. There are various types of black sheep but that depends on the views of an individual of course.
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Hope it keeps you well protected! Doubt my sheep would look as good around my neck. lol. There are various types of black sheep but that depends on the views of an individual of course.
You could find yourself a cute little black sheep pendant??
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Hi,,
some of us have black sheep now that we don't want, my daughter was murdered in march by her husband, he was convicted in september and sentenced to life imprisonment, for my two little grandaughters this has been horrific and they will probably never get over it, however I found a murder in my family in 1882 and was fascinated by it, no doubt iin 200 years time my descendants will be fascinated by my daughters murder, it's just human nature.
Sue Benson
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That's terrible, sue q, and I'm very sorry to hear it. I hope that your grand daughters are starting to move on. You're right, though, it is human nature for curiosity to eventually kick in once a couple of generations have passed.
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Thanks for that, the girls are 8 & 6 they cry for mummy but do not ask for daddy, I think that says it all.
Sue
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May your God go with dear lady, I wish sorry were more than just a word.
I found what I think might be a black sheep , in someone else's family but who affected mine!, I would like to meet his descendants and let them know what I think"!.
My female ancestor died at 18 in 1911 after suffering for 9 days, I got the death certificate two weeks ago, the doctor was mind numbingly incompetent. It is still going on isn't it. I wonder how many "medical families" have a good laugh at family get togethers and discuss their ancestral black sheep. Rather prone to this type of thing in my family line, so not altogether happy about it.
It is odd how some things haunt families through the decades.
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One of my ancestors was the last victim of this one:
http://murderpedia.org/female.P/p/peete-louise.htm
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Sue that is truly awful and I am so sorry and sad for you and your family. May you receive the strength you need for you and your grandchildren. Big hug. Sue.
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stormtroop maybe your ancestors just never got caught ;D ;D
:D
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Something has always fascinated me about the English, why do they like the idea of a black sheep in the family??. Do tell , what is the appeal!!, I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine and proud of it, Scots non conformists, maybe it is the morality, but somehow going off the rails really never appealed.
I do find the English obsession with having something "nasty" in the family bloodline and then making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for it, when everyone else was working and staying on the straight and narrow really intriguing .
Oh I have a book on English executions so I love reading about how your ancestors were dispatched.
Not sure I care about the label being attached here. Are you really suggesting those north of our border are less fascinated in some of the more gruesome aspects of our history and that somehow they are all innocent observers by virtue of Presbyterianism for example?
Maybe we should mention the series of murders committed in Edinburgh by Burke and Hare? Oh hang on, they were both Irish!
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One of my ancestors was the last victim of this one:
http://murderpedia.org/female.P/p/peete-louise.htm
Oh hell!, this individual was one nasty piece of work. facing her own death in the gas chamber so calmly, she obviously had no respect for any kind of life, even her own.
May your ancestor rest in peace.
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t sure I care about the label being attached here. Are you really suggesting those north of our border are less fascinated in some of the more gruesome aspects of our history and that somehow they are all innocent observers by virtue of Presbyterianism for example?
Maybe we should mention the series of murders committed in Edinburgh by Burke and Hare? Oh hang on, they were both Irish!
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Touche! lad/lass, Edinburgh has a badly haunted past and the Scots , well they were mean with a broadsword.
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"well they were mean with a broadsword."
An I thought that the broadsword was an European/English weapon.
The claybeg being the Scottish variation.
Regards
Malky
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An I thought that the broadsword was an European/English weapon.
The claybeg being the Scottish variation.
Regards
Malky
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Claybeg?, I have not heard of that one, I am learning alot on this site ;D
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An I thought that the broadsword was an European/English weapon.
The claybeg being the Scottish variation.
Regards
Malky
Claybeg?, I have not heard of that one, I am learning alot on this site ;D
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The Scots being short, needed such a weapon whereas the English being the much taller race ā la "Longshanks" were able to use the Broadsword to much better effect!
Just teasing guys ;D
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lol good one graham
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"The Scots being short, needed such a weapon whereas the English being the much taller race ā la "Longshanks" were able to use the Broadsword to much better effect!"
The "claybeg" is also good for cutting turf, and chopping down posts, especially the Wembly variety. :o :o :o
Regards
Malky
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Touché ;)
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The Scots being short, needed such a weapon whereas the English being the much taller race ā la "Longshanks" were able to use the Broadsword to much better effect!
Just teasing guys ;D
The Scots prefer close-format fighting, where a broadsword is of no use whatsoever
(Been to Glasgow lately?!?! ;D)
We English, being stand-offish, and keeping everyone at arm's length obviously prefer something longer! ;D
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"The Scots being short, needed such a weapon whereas the English being the much taller race ā la "Longshanks" were able to use the Broadsword to much better effect!"
The "claybeg" is also good for cutting turf, and chopping down posts, especially the Wembly variety. :o :o :o
Regards
Malky
Laughing out loud at that one. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Frank.
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The "claybeg" is also good for cutting turf, and chopping down posts, especially the Wembly variety. :o :o :o
Regards
Malky
Don't seem to remember one being used much at Twickenham. ;D
Frank.
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"Don't seem to remember one being used much at Twickenham"
But Twickenham has a Danish cover. When we bring back the Danish, we think of bacon, not grass :D :D :D
Regards
Malky
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Claybeg, claymore, broadsword, pole -axe, none would do me any good , I am under 5ft 6, so let me think....arsenic in the soup??, a short dagger?, ;D
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Stilts ??? ???
Regards
Malky
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Stilts ??? ???
Regards
Malky
Nope, some one with a big broadsword would come and cut me down, I think the dagger and the arsenic in the soup is the best bet. speaking of which, there is an excellent book available called " the Arsenic Century" by James C.Whorton, how victorian britain was poisoned at home, work and play. one Guardian reviewer called it " a lovely book" :o. I thought only the Mail was capable of vitriol appreciation at the moment ;D
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Oh I do love this topic keep it going.
My contribution is;
A very minor twig in my tree was John Tutchin (1660 - 1707) who was sentenced to be whipped though all the towns in Dorset annually by that malevolent,vicious beast of a judge judge Jeffreys for his part in the Monmouth Rebellion.
The amount of reading matter about this man is endless and no doubt anyone who has Jeffreys in their tree would similarly have plenty to read about.
joboy
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I think that once you have a hundred plus names etc in your tree, then a bit if notoriety comes as a welcome relief. After all, how many names have only the parents, birth, occupation, siblings, marriage, death and living locations without a mention of the "spice of life" that makes them individual, suffering the actual trials of life.
Regards
Malky
Added, metal stilts made from girders ::) ::) ::)
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After all, how many names have only the parents, birth, occupation, siblings, marriage, death and living locations
We are "spoilt" by the internet. With facebook, twitter & co. we take it for granted that everybody knows (or can find out) everything about us.
In his book on researching Shakespeare Bill Bryson makes the point that the only written details for most of our ancestors were the parish register entries for baptism, marriage and burial. Later, with civil registration, they were mentioned in birth, marriage and death certificates, and, after 1841, in the census returns.
Unless ..... they did something which merited an entry somewhere, which we can now pounce on with cries of joy ;D
And unfortunately, for many it was just the "dark side" that got commemorated :(
In this sense I am fortunate that my maternal grandfather and his three brothers were well known lawyers, reporters and political activists between the World Wars, so I often find snippets about them and their activities in the internet.
Other than that, my family stayed out of trouble, and out of the public eye ...although, I must confess: recently another family researcher found some newspaper articles, where our great-great-grandmother tried to sue someone for support and maintenance of our great-grandmother but the case was thrown out of court. It was also mentioned that she had been tried previously for concealing the birth of another illegitimate child !
Bob
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I think that once you have a hundred plus names etc in your tree, then a bit if notoriety comes as a welcome relief. After all, how many names have only the parents, birth, occupation, siblings, marriage, death and living locations without a mention of the "spice of life" that makes them individual, suffering the actual trials of life.
Regards
Malky
Added, metal stilts made from girders ::) ::) ::)
Added to which without such characters, our family trees would be about as interesting as an instruction sheet for flat pack furniture from IKEA I reckon. Variety good or bad is the spice of life as you say.
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The ancestral black sheep put "some meat on the bones" cos there's more detail and info to find.
And the black sheep are mostly more grey than black - lived a life that didn't totally conform to, perhaps, the expected norms - perhaps due to circumstance, lust, love or desperate need. Finding them makes me (who wonders whether I will be considered a black sheep herd member in 100 years) feel less black and more light grey.
Cocksie
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I'm the black sheep in my family and quite happy with it lol
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I'm the black sheep in my family and quite happy with it lol
So Baaa humbug eh? :D
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stormtroop you would have to be careful about the size of your broadsword incase it gets caught in your kilt!
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Judge Jeffreys!!!, ooeerr :o , that is nasty. I would not want to be descended from him, mind he is said to haunt a few places so all that judging and scourging did not do him any good ;D .
I think I have just found three deaths in my family which seem to be in quick succession , all within a few months of each other, I think I have the right ones :-\ but I will have to see. all three are members on one family Father and two young people , Father dies in later 1893 and children follow in 1894 one from the other. Now understand that there was 4 waves of a Russian flu pandemic from 1899 to 1900. Some people like black sheep, my interests are the peoples occupations but especially what they died of, so I am exited by this one!. Morbid, I know , but I have a living relative who has a , well shall we say a " soft spot" for the Black Death" :-[ :o .
One of my relatives worked in a 19th century Asylum, for four years, one of the largest in his country. I may not have black sheep as such but some interesting deaths and occupations ;D .
And I agree, this IS a most fascinating thread!!!
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Are you saying you don't like me because I'm a black sheep? chuckles.
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stormtroop you would have to be careful about the size of your broadsword incase it gets caught in your kilt!
Not a problem for the Scots, it's far to cold! ;)
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I didn't think about that Graham !
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I didn't think about that Graham !
;D
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Penknife ? lol
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"working class aristocracy " what does that even mean? It's an oxymoron if ever there was one. I'm guessing you're trying to elevate your own working class ancestors above other working class people of the day by using an ill-fitting term to define yours as being the highest echelons of said class?
I'm not a judgemental person generally, but reading your post it comes across as quite arrogant; when including the rest of the content, not simply your inability to avoid the manifest contradiction of your lexical choices.
I'm British, of mainly Scottish and English ancestry, and I think so called "black sheep" are par for the course. I don't seek them out, I don't hold a party every time I find them. However, they are certainly interesting, they have character, and there is a hell of a lot more information on them than other, what could be titled by your description "bog standard", family members. Many of these "black sheep" are victims of the age in which they live; poverty was rife, and the lower classes were discriminated against massively. They're not "nasty" for the most part. The fact you're also trying to generalise it to some kind of "English" (incorrect use of demonym by the way) phenomenon, is ludicrous and your evidence, spurious.
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Working class aristocracy does exist although many would not recognize such existence. Engles certainly did (I'm dragging out my memory here sorry) - as the search for material gain and status so no, it is not an oxymoron although superficially it might seem so. Those in the printing trade or those of us that went into such jobs as tool-making or low level employment in the civil service or office work would certainly recognize if not admit to it's position within our social strata.
Black sheep as victims of the age? Well that's a moot point, we all live within and comply with the age into which we were born and what we may call deadbeats and chavs today is but an extension of the demonization of the working class of yesteryear where they were named "whipper snappers" or "hooligans" (see Hooligans and rebels: an oral history of working class childood and youth 1889 1939, HUMPHRIES Stephen)
Black sheep? Bring e'm on, we should lay claim and be proud of all of them!
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not simply your inability to avoid the manifest contradiction of your lexical choices.
I don't hold a party every time I find them. The fact you're also trying to generalise it to some kind of "English" (incorrect use of demonym by the way) phenomenon, is ludicrous and your evidence, spurious.
First line , Wot?? ??? demonym eh??. I thought this was the " Lighter Side, funny I reckon this thread was going well?. I have already "touche-ed" and commended the contributors for educating me and proving me wrong, and we have shared a few heart warming moments about our ancestors, So what is suddenly going wrong here?.
Second , YEAH, lets hold a party!! ;D lets fill the room with the black sheep , wash the wool, scratch their little ears , kiss their little noses, and down the hooch.
And as I posted earlier, I think I might have found a few pandemic deaths in my family. Nowt like a disease or two.
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Working class aristocracy does exist although many would not recognize such existence. Engles certainly did (I'm dragging out my memory here sorry) - as the search for material gain and status so no, it is not an oxymoron although superficially it might seem so. Those in the printing trade or those of us that went into such jobs as tool-making or low level employment in the civil service or office work would certainly recognize if not admit to it's position within our social strata.
That's quite an interesting point Graham, when I served my time as a welder and eventually went into the workshops / fabrication shops at the "Plant Works" at Doncaster I always thought that the fitters in the "Tool Room" held themselves in higher esteem than they did everyone else, I could be wrong of course, that's just the way it seemed,..................
Anyway, never one to be beaten I changed my trade from being a "Welder" to calling myself a
"Metal Fusion Technician" ;D
Frank.
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YEAH, lets hold a party!! ;D lets fill the room with the black sheep , wash the wool, scratch their little ears , kiss their little noses, and down the hooch.
Hi stormtroop, put me down for an invite to that, ;D ;)
Frank.
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Here I am ready for ear scratching and nose kissing.
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Something has always fascinated me about the English, why do they like the idea of a black sheep in the family??. Do tell , what is the appeal!!, I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine and proud of it, Scots non conformists, maybe it is the morality, but somehow going off the rails really never appealed.
I do find the English obsession with having something "nasty" in the family bloodline and then making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for it, when everyone else was working and staying on the straight and narrow really intriguing .
Oh I have a book on English executions so I love reading about how your ancestors were dispatched.
;D Nice to know your judgement on the 'English' and obsessions.....but all this 'English' has found is hard working very ordinary ancestors and I had to start searching the branch lines to find any 'black sheep' which were interesting, great learning about other records I had not previously researched........ so for me I would say " Hope your ancestors are rich or rogues, as there are more records about them to research"
As for "making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses" .....human beings are hard wired to organise information and make what they find logically understandable.
Trying to make sense today of often Victorian moral judgements about some of those dreadful 'crimes' people committed such as a maid stealing her mistresses handkerchief which the maid was awarded transportation to the other side of the World for, so with today values I personally I think that was very harsh, my 'thoughts' change nothing, if she was my ancestor ( who are precious to me) I would defend 'her' but as a family historian the records she generated because of it interests me.
Your ancestors and what they did don't change whoever they are and what your ancestors achieved or the crimes they committed are not 'yours' to personally feel proud or ashamed of.
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Yes, I think we can not judge our ancestors by our own standards, what would!! ?? they think of us :o ::) . -- probably.
Sometimes what others think of our ancestors sometimes is difficult to take, this evening ,I have just had someone think one of my ancestors died a suspicious death, the manner of which has rather disturbed me and has had me set on a genealogical detective quest which I am sure will amount to nothing, but I am sure I will have to get expert opinion on this. My reaction to the possibility of some one else's black sheep, and a not cuddly one whose nose one could kiss, surprises me and makes me feel protective over my ancestor in a way I had not previously felt, something I did not expect.
As far as working class aristocracy is concerned, I am not concerned with oxen being morons, never thought they were ???. they have nice big noses too.
I said to my old dad, as I tapped the electric storage radiator with my index finger; " 'arrystocracy, that's us, working class 'arrybleedin'storacy". nuff said , end of.
As to the "characterful" black sheep we can accept , take yer partners the " nose kiss square dance" and the "ear scratch waltz"
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I notice I am being blatantly ignored since saying I am a black sheep . Am I presumed nasty?
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I notice I am being blatantly ignored since saying I am a black sheep . Am I presumed nasty?
What? who said that? did somebody speak?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Frank.
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I notice I am being blatantly ignored since saying I am a black sheep . Am I presumed nasty?
EEK no, ;D err, what is it you have done, we will not tell , honestly. scratch ear, scratch ear. look out here comes the soapy water ;D
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Lol Frank. Stormtroop you are presuming I have done something , I haven't . Thanks for the ear scratch though.
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I'm the black sheep in my family and quite happy with it lol
I'll join your club!Not sure what I have done to become one but whatever it is lets hope some descendant of mine will 'obsessively make sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for me ;D
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There are many reasons why people are called black sheep and it doesn't mean they are nasty or criminal stormtroop , so please widen that narrow vision. I am a black sheep because I was adopted by a family who never accepted me I wasn't their blood and was rejected by all the relatives . Plus having an American father confirmed me as a no good Yank brat. So what am I guilty of?
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Hugs iluleah Hi Sis! No doubt you will have plenty of descendents in your corner.
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I notice I am being blatantly ignored since saying I am a black sheep . Am I presumed nasty?
I replied, and said "so Baaa humbug eh?" :D
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There are many reasons why people are called black sheep and it doesn't mean they are nasty or criminal stormtroop , so please widen that narrow vision. I am a black sheep because I was adopted by a family who never accepted me I wasn't their blood and was rejected by all the relatives . Plus having an American father confirmed me as a no good Yank brat. So what am I guilty of?
I think it's meant more as metonym rather than something to be taken as a generalization for being bad. For myself I was more of a square peg trying to be made round after being taken into my step family from a kids home as I approached my teens. Never lasted long though as Mum chucked me out at 17 with sod all to my name apart from a black bin liner for my clothes having had my natural father described as "piss head" which to be fair, he was. Parents eh, who'd have em' ;D
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I am sad to hear that Graham, however, no doubt you have become a better person than they. I agree with you about meanings but it's people who assume the worst without knowledge or consideration ........grrr! Thanks for your replies lol
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I am proud of my so called Black Sheep Convicts who were sent to Australia for very minor offences. They all went on to have good law abiding lives. One even became a Policeman. I am also very proud of the war heroes in my tree but I cannot defend Wars. Australia was built by the Convicts. People who think they do not have a Black Sheep look harder. ;) Money can cover up anything. Take Care Lynette
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Right , hugs ALL round now. I will now come clean, I am researching my Fathers family, they are a good family from what I have found , but a century ago, a woman married in who "poisoned the well!", my grandmother, she would not acknowledge any of her grandchildren and treated my beautiful mother, :'( me and my brothers and sisters appallingly! , as well as her sons and daughters in law. Her judgemental attitude rubbed off on her own daughters and I grew up with that, I am still trying to deal with it .
The strangest and cruellest twist was, after my grandmother died, one of her daughters let slip that my grandmother had had an illegitimate child! and my grandfather "could not have married a worst choice " according to his friends!, he lived to regret it and hated his own daughters. His son, my father could not have married a better woman :'( speaking of whom found out some years ago just what kind of an environment this mother in law from hell hailed from.
My mother was in a hairdressers on day relating the family history and gave the name of the village her mother in law came from , the whole salon-customers and staff froze in horrified silence.
Like I said HUGS all round ;D ;D ;D sitting here with tea and a few tears for us all.
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I have to say that I find your own posts very judgemental, argumentative and deceitful. You seem to think the 'English' are overly concerned with black sheep ancestors and said "... English, why do they like the idea of a black sheep in the family??. Do tell , what is the appeal!!, I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine... ." Now you have the cheek to say that your own grandmother was what we can probably term a black sheep ::)
Probably some of the most important 'rules' in family history (as in all sorts of research) are truth and fact.
P.s. I'm not English but have lots of black sheep in my family which I find quite pleasing ;D
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I have to say that I find your own posts very judgemental, argumentative and deceitful.
Oh hello, I have not seen you before?? where did you spring from?? , been "lurking" while I have been posting?. Judgemental -yes I admitted to that, argumentative, not without a few smilies thrown in , that is what they are there for! in case anyone gets the wrong idea??. and a good argument never harmed anyone
deceitful, about what?? . I am cautious when I post on a forum I have not been on before I spent my life in jobs where security was important , guarding other peoples informations including yours! it rubs off!.
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"My mother was in a hairdressers on day relating the family history and gave the name of the village her mother in law came from , the whole salon-customers and staff froze in horrified silence."
Why do people worry what others think. So this was your fathers family. You cannot change history.
Immaterial the relationship, one can onle strive to be better. My mother does not acknowledge my children or her great grandchildren from my line. That makes absolutely no difference to us at all. That's her choice, and how we deal with it is our choice. It does not mean that we have to be of the same frame of mind as her. An individuals behaviour is based on their own conscience. Why would you let yours be driven or affected by others.
Regards
Malky
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Where did I spring from? Well actually I've been here quite a while as you can see from my profile and number of posts. Just because people aren't posting on topics doesn't mean they aren't reading them (and it's not considered 'lurking' here).
Deceitful? Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word- "deceiving or misleading others" is one definition. You stated in your 1st post you had no 'black sheep' in your lineage and finally tell us about your grandmother ::)
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Oh hello, I have not seen you before?? where did you spring from?? , been "lurking" while I have been posting?. Judgemental -yes I admitted to that, argumentative, not without a few smilies thrown in , that is what they are there for! in case anyone gets the wrong idea??. and a good argument never harmed anyone
I see that you are relatively new to this forum, in which case you will not realise that Aghadowey was a highly respected moderator until she recently resigned. As she said, a lot of people follow posts but do not contribute until they feel that they can add to them. I also find it odd that you go from wondering why people want "black sheep" to suddenly admitting that you have one. Why not state that at first?
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This thread has been confusing me from the beginning ???.
I'm not English either but as I pointed out in reply 9 , I wasn't aware the the "English" were any more obsessed by " black sheep" than any other nationality.
We have no control of the past or what our ancestors did or did not do. As family history researchers we find what we find!! We can't be judgmental. And no-one should claim to have no "black sheep".
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For the most part, we don't know much about our ancestors. They were generally gray - from dove gray to charcoal - not black or white. Nobody's life is summed up in a few certificates and census returns. If we're lucky, we might get some newspaper articles, personal letters or the like, but even these don't necessarily paint a full and accurate picture.
Here's gg uncle William in one account: "By strenuous efforts, he succeeded in obtaining an education which fitted him for teaching, which occupation he has followed for several years, in connection with his farm labors. He has been Chairman of his town, and held various local offices." And here he is in another: "Wm. H. Ennis, who was township clerk, township assessor, justice of the peace and clerk of the school district of the township of Viding, Clay county, has probably joined the American colony in Canada. He carried away only a small amount of money, but many evidences of crooked work are coming to light."
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I'm a Scot with an English great grandfather. I must have a flock of black ones in my tree. ;D ;D
Regards
Malky
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So, summing up, we all have sheep of all colours in our families, ranging from pristine white to totally black.
None of can or should be judgmental here, as many actions may have arisen due to the prevailing circumstances of the times, but I agree with others who remarked that Stormtroop should have presented us with the facts right from the beginning.
As this discussion has been started from false premises, I'm closing it for now. It will probably be taken up again later, in a year or so ...
Bob