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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: jennywren001 on Saturday 05 October 13 12:21 BST (UK)
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OK this has taken years to get to this point so I'm going to give way too much info just in case anyone knows a little bit of the puzzle.
Known: David Jolly born 1811 married Diana Rae in 1837 in St Cyrus. (she's buried in St Cyrus graveyard)
Diana was daughter to William Rae (b 1778) and Margaret McBey (b1777)
David Jolly was a master mariner sailing out of Montrose (mainly) - through shipping news/Lloyd's lists etc I've got him master of the Victory (not that one!)1844 -1845 then the Countess of Airlie - I'm so sad I've got a list of all his runs - mainly to Riga and back with flax or wheat. Finally Nov 3rd 1847 (from the 'Montrose Review' but reported in an Aberdeen newspaper) "grave concern for the Countess of Airlie" - then nothing. I'm presuming he was lost at sea as Diana marries a George Nicol in 1857.
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Have you tried the National Archives Jenny,
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
or the Edinburgh Gazette
http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/
Skoosh
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Thanks,
yip checked them but nada...you would have thought the loss of a Montrose brigantine would have made the Scottish press even if it was doing a Riga/London run? I've also checked the English press but found nothing about the Countess of Airlie going down. David Jolly is my GGG grandfather and I need some way to confirm his parents were William and Catharine Shieret (Sheret?). If he died at sea and there's no more information fine I can finally stop and put my huge folders of family papers to bed.
Jen
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Diana certainly has the martial status of W for widow on the 1851 Census though her occupation given is Seaman Captain's wife. That would suggest David died pre -1851.
Looby :)
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Thanks Looby,
Yes I'm sure he died in 1847 on the Countess of Airlie what I can't establish is the fact the ship actually sank. It was last reported off Elsinore...the North Sea in October not the greatest place to be. Diana gave birth to her third child in May 1847 also called David - tough times. Diana did go on to have a rather interesting life - her second husband accidentally drowned and he was a farmer not a mariner! I can't tell you what it was like to find a 'newish' grave stone at St Cyrus erected by her grand daughter (Diana Beattie) in memory of her mother Margaret Moncur (age 94) (nee Jolly) and her Grandmother Diana Rae (age 84).
Cheers
Jen
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Hi Jen,
Have you checked out the Merchant Seaman Records?
Find My Past have the record of a David Jolly, year of birth 1810 place of birth Montrose available to view. Unfortunately I do not have a subscription to that site. You can buy pay to view credits or purchase a subscription. I have no clue if the above David will be your man or if the record will provide any new info. :-\ Maybe you've found this already.
Good luck with your hunt,
Looby :)
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Hi Jen, Not the david you seek but chances are the same family.
Grave in Johnshaven Old Graveyard just three miles north of St Cyrus
Cheers,
Sy
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Looby - thanks - bought some more credits at Findmypast - managed to look at one merchant seaman record and them all my credits vanished! Emailed them so hopefully a result on Monday mind the 1835/36 records are a little scant to say the least. Thanks for that - I'm hoping one of the other two will show - 'lost at sea'...maybe I'll get lucky and one of the records will be from BT115 then I'll get to know his eye coulour!
Sy,
Yes probably related but until I get 'my' David Jolly sorted I can't confirm his parents - he is my total stumbliing block...
Thanks for the help...I'll let you know if I get anywhere on Monday...although really should get some other work done!
Jen
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Well now I know he was mate on the Venus from 1835 till 1839, then in 1840 a short stint as Master on the Minerva, then master of the Victory in 1844 till it was sold then master on the Countess of Airlie- then nothing Totally at a dead end. Does not help that in one listing alone he has his birth place as, Benholm, Montrose and St Cyrus! Looks like my family tree stops with a missing mariner - can't be the first time that's happened. Thanks everyone.
Jen
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Hello Again
You are certainly on the right track with the locations you mention.
Beholm is the Parish for the small fishing village of Johnshaven the birthplace of many seafairers - some of my ancestors included.
St Cyrus is both a Village and a Parish and many seafairers Came from the Village of Miltonhaven before it was washed away in a great storm.
Montrose and the nearby village of Ferryden, like those above have had a long seafairing history.
The village of Gourdon, three miles north of Johnshaven is in Bervie Parish and shares the same seafairing history as its neighbours.
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Hi
Not much to offer I'm afraid but
The Angus and Mearns Directory and Almanac 1846/47 has
(1) David Jolly listed as a Shipmaster living on Hill Street, Montrose.
(2) In the List of Vessels registered at the Ports of Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee, Perth, Aberdeen and Stonehaven the brigantine The Countess of Airlie, built 1837, owned by David Mackie, Shipmaster David Jolly.
Lloyds Shipping Register 1/7/1846-30/6/1847 and 1/7/1847-30/6/1848 has R Brand of Balmain Street, Montrose as Shipmaster of The Countess of Airlie, owned by Mackie & Co and built in Dundee 1831. The Register for the next year does not list The Countess of Airlie.
University of Dundee Archives ref MS73 Builders, owners, major incidents, crew members, etc. of all ships built in Dundee 1767-1980 by John P Ingram Shipping Correspondent of The Courier.
Wills 1576-1800
William Jollie mariner in Montrose 17/1/1749
Alexander Jollie shipmaster in Montrose 2/12/1779
William Jolly b Laurencekirk d Canada 16/6/1931 (born 1854)
I definitely wouldn't give up on David and his origins. There are Sherret(t)s in the St Cyrus registers, and Catherine appears to have had a brother called David bpt 1818. It might be possible to match the David Jolly's in the area to those on later census returns to see which one has disappeared.
I wonder what the law was in 1847 and whether Diana had to wait 7 years before remarrying as David could only be presumed to have died?
Might also be worth putting an appeal/article in www.stcyrusnewsletter.org as there may well still be members of the family locally and who knows, maybe some stories have been passed down!
Good luck
Valerie
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Thanks Valerie you've inspired me to keep going! I'm going to have hours (days?) of fun with those directories -scrolling through now saying to myself - yes know that David Jolly the baker funny how he's also married to a Diana (41 census)...
It is great seeing DJ in an 'official' document as captain of the Countess of Airlie - until now I've only had newspaper reports that stated him as the master...LLoyd's only list Brand as the master not DJ. I'm sure it is him living in Montrose in 46/47 as their first child was born in Montrose but baptised in St Cyrus.
Question - the final listing of the Countess of Airlie in the 47/48 Lloyd's Reg - does not list a rating, port or route does this mean/indicate/hint at her being lost ?
Recap - I've now got him on the Venus 35-40, The Minerva in 40, the Jane in 43, the Victory 44/45 and the Countess of Airlie 46/47...I probably know more about the trips he made than his wife!
I thought I could avoid those Sherrets/Sheiret/Sherets looks like I'll have hunt them down...I was hoping for less names not more!
Thanks everyone for your help it's been great.
Jen
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hi,
diana rae is my 1c5r, her parents are william rae margaret mcbay.
I have found a document on FindMyPast for david jolly which may interest
you. two images from bt111/35(3037) attached.
I hope these help.
yet another name to add to the everlasting ancestors we have.
Regards
Mike :)
Note Surname variations:- Kae and McBay
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Thanks Mike,
These documents helped me put together some of his voyages. I just wish I could find something about the Countess of Airlie going down. Right now I'm back outside doing a bit of gardening - we've lucked out for an Indian summer here so family tree on the back burner until the weather breaks. I'm leaving those pesky Sherrets/Sheiret/Sherets for the late winter nights! As savage amusement come the snow I think I'll try and link all the Jollys listed in the 1841 census - there's not that many of them in the NE of Scotland so it may be doable.
Cheers
Jen
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Update on the 'Countess of Airlie'...Montrose museum or library cannot add anything further regarding the disappearance of this ship in 1847. I've been through the 'weekly maritime causalities' in Lloyd's weekly from Sept 12 to Dec 26th 1847 - nothing. I've got 20+ mentions in the press regarding its trips with my GGGgrand father as captain in 46/47 then the article about the grave concern for the ship then nothing. Starting to become somewhat of an expert on the year 1847 though!
Jen
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Red letter day...I've managed to find my father's cousin who has a copy of the picture I've been trying to get hold of for three years. Looks like my mother passed it to him when my dad died in 1995! Anyways, it a picture of Captain David Jolly and his ship - I wish I could say the inscription reads Captain Jolly on the Countess of Airlie just before he was lost at sea in 1847 but alas not. The good news is it's my Captain on the Minerva in 1840 (the first ship he was master of according to the documentation I have)...but sailing into the bay at Marseilles. I've only got him sailing around the coast and multiple Riga runs but looks like he might have also sailed to France - very apropos given that's where I am. Despite almost going blind reading Lloyds Weekly List of Marine Casualties I'm still none the wiser as to what happened to the Countess in 1847...but I do now have the inscription - think that calls for a glass of wine!
Jen
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Hi Jen, Not the david you seek but chances are the same family.
Grave in Johnshaven Old Graveyard just three miles north of St Cyrus
Cheers,
Sy
Hi Sy,
Little did I know when you posted that gravestone photo.....currently working on Jolly waifs and stays from the 1841 census. I had a wee boy called James Jolly living with the Stiven's family in Durris age 9mths. Noticed one of the servants is called Isabella Gordon - bells ringing now as I've seen somewhere a Gordon/Jolly marriage . 51 Census there's James now 10 living with his parents Isabella and David Jolly and his wee brother David age 9mths...later to marry Isabella Bruce and live to the ripe old age of 90! James dad in now in the Angus pile as he was born in Logie Pert. I've got the death cert of 'gravestone' David Jolly which lists his parents and wife so everything ties in...back to waifs and strays.
Jen
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Just posting this to give hope to everyone who thinks they'll never get another piece of the puzzle. Thanks to Alan in Australia for finding this nugget. OK Brand is down as the captain of the ship in 1846 and 1847 but I know he's not by the shipping news and the Angus directories which list my Captain Jolly but that was all I knew until I read this. I know he's listed as Bland not Brand but this must be the man....
Jen
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y30/
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Hi Jenny,
What a fabulous find from Alan In Australia!
Do you therefore think there has been an error and the captain named as Bland is your David Jolly?
What an end , throwing yourself off the ship because you'd fell off the wagon!
It's finds like this that makes Family History so addictive and fun.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
No, it's Robert Brand not my David Jolly but it's another wee bit of the puzzle as Brand could not have been captain when the ship goes missing....plus finding Brand's widow has given me some more leads to work on...not sure if the ship will ever be found but at least I can be sure it was not Brand who was lost at the same time as the Countess of Airlie....
Jen
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Sorry, I've got it now :-[ just having a bit of a daft moment.
So Bland/Brand had been recorded as Captain of The Countess of Airlie in 1847 when very obviously he couldn't have been.
You never know what might pop up next,
Good luck,
Looby :)
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And finally....
Thanks to a lot of help on Rootschat and further afield plus a bit more digging I think I can safely say my captain went down with the Countess of Airlie in 1847. Once again, it was all about making those connections.
I recently followed through on the 9 year old John Hood to be found with his granny Margaret Rae living in St Cyrus in 1841. He turned out to be the son of Diana Rae and a John Hood born Milton, St Cyrus on the 3rd of June 1832 - five years before Diana married David Jolly.
John Hood joins the merchant navy in 1846, on his navy record his birth place is given as St Cyrus and his birthdate is given as the 3rd of June 1831 - that makes him only 14 not the stated 15 when he goes to sea as an apprentice. There are only two years of records for John 1846 and 1847...in the 1847 column is written 'Lost'. This is the year the Countess of Airlie goes missing. An inspection of both his and David Jolly's records for 1846 and 1847 show they were both sailing on the same ship (huge thanks to Seaweed for helping me with the navy codes). I'll still want to look at the crew list (if it exists) at Kew but I'm fairly confident that John Hood was sailing with his step-father on the Countess of Airlie and that Diana Rae lost both her husband and son in late 1847.
Jen